View Full Version : ATF Prosecutes Ohio Man for AR Pistol with Brace
Interesting write up of U.S. v. Wright, in which the northern Ohio man was charged with a series of violations regarding pistol brace. The ATF alleges that he added parts created a Short Barreled-Rifle, which the defendant did not register - https://www.range365.com/atf-prosecutes-ohio-man-for-ar-pistol-with-brace?src=SOC&dom=fb&fbclid=IwAR0kBSAQWe53fFHMrZzpqo3F2zlQHegzM7dpEcs9yYHBkvRrmJM8M11pwsw
The Prince law firm article about all this - https://blog.princelaw.com/2018/10/28/atf-unhinged-prosecutions-made-up-out-of-whole-cloth-you-might-be-next/?fbclid=IwAR0ftqPLaEoQL7aRMRaDqKSJsqRHNdadGlFmPCGPL_O7MzaL9Nk3ah4a5oA
MOD EDIT: he was found NOT guilty.
FromMyColdDeadHand
10-31-18, 12:07
I didn't see anything in the articles about if this was part of other charges? Why did they charge this guy? Lot's of braces out there. My guess is that they wanted him on something and this is what they could find, hoping that he might cop a plea.
Five_Point_Five_Six
10-31-18, 12:18
I read on another site that he'd modified the brace by adding some type of rubber pad with paracord. If true, he may have got lucky because IIRC their stance since the original Sig brace hit the market was no modifications could be made.
Another reason to repeal the NFA entirely and let people put whatever barrel length they want on whatever lower they want with no govt involvement.
Another reason to repeal the NFA entirely and let people put whatever barrel length they want on whatever lower they want with no govt involvement.
This. All day long. What the hell difference does it make if my barrel is 16" or 15"? Or 10"? Stupid stupid law.
In the blog it says the jury deliberated over lunch and found him not guilty.
I think the major problem here is the government/ATF lawyers fought against the defense showing the determination letters from the ATF that braces were "okay" to the jury.
Every government employee that was involved in prosecuting this law abiding citizen on these stupid technicalities needs to be fired. What a ridiculous waste of time, money and resources.
RetroRevolver77
10-31-18, 14:57
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FromMyColdDeadHand
10-31-18, 15:03
The 'pistols' with braces are an interesting option for those of us in states where the CCW is restricted to just handguns. Though I don't doubt that a Denver cop would crap himself if I had a Zenith MP5 clone with a brace slung under my jacket.
The 'pistols' with braces are an interesting option for those of us in states where the CCW is restricted to just handguns. Though I don't doubt that a Denver cop would crap himself if I had a Zenith MP5 clone with a brace slung under my jacket.
That's the only reason to have an AR pistol, well- that and you can keep an AR pistol with a round chambered in the vehicle while transporting as well. Not so much for a rifle or Long gun.
I'm all for Abolishing the NFA. I'm all for abolishing 90% of the Federal alphabet agencies in existence as well.
This. All day long. What the hell difference does it make if my barrel is 16" or 15"? Or 10"? Stupid stupid law.
Because "Bonnie and Clyde"...almost 100 years ago....
Came here to see if this was posted.
I am curious to see "the rest of the story" Was this just one segment that wanted to try to screw somebody or is it part of a larger move to close so called loop holes.
I didn't see anything in the articles about if this was part of other charges? Why did they charge this guy? Lot's of braces out there. My guess is that they wanted him on something and this is what they could find, hoping that he might cop a plea.
I wonder how many youtube videos he made featuring him shouldering his brace?
I wonder how many youtube videos he made featuring him shouldering his brace?
Determination letters (that they didn't want submitted) have stated that is legal.
Somewhere in Facebook land I saw a pic of the pistol in question.. it was quite the abomination. I've tried in vain to find the pic again.
Doc Safari
10-31-18, 17:44
This is why I'll keep my SBR's.
I have to agree. It's still a gray area. I remember when Streetsweeper shotguns were suddenly "destructive devices." I personally knew a couple of guys who had to scramble to find out their legal options.
Determination letters (that they didn't want submitted) have stated that is legal.
I want to be a juror on one if these cases.
Andy
Determination letters (that they didn't want submitted) have stated that is legal.
Years ago I attended an OSHA 30 Hour course taught by a retired OSHA inspector. While discussing letters of interpretation he told us to never write OSHA to ask if this is a recordable injury or is this a violation. Because the answer, iregardless of the facts, will inevitably be "yes".
I surmise the same is with ATF.
Because "Bonnie and Clyde"...almost 100 years ago....
Old and outdated. Time to be progressive and repeal NFA.
What me and my consenting adult have in our bedroom is no ones business.
End size descrimination
#allsizesmatter
Jury Nullification (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_nullification)
Jury nullification is a concept where members of a trial jury find a defendant not guilty if they do not support a government's law, do not believe it is constitutional or humane, or do not support a possible punishment for breaking the law.
Jury Nullification (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_nullification)
Id actually love to hear an atf agent try to explain to a clueless jury what is legal and what is not (with pics)... then explain why the defendant needs to go to jail for 10 years.
I am imagining the jury deliberating, all confused as hell, leading to ^^^^^^
The main thing that bothers me about the ATF is that the legislative branch of our government is supposed to make our laws. It's up to law enforcement agencies to uphold/enforce them. The ATF gets to interpret some of our firearm laws. They shouldn't get to do that.
JMHO, NYH1.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181101/e52f8501c1cfad7447416a76f8a34da4.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181101/57734cd3c8191f96fa5cbd35b6c902a2.jpg
Yes, his butt pad is the cap from a cane.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181101/e52f8501c1cfad7447416a76f8a34da4.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181101/57734cd3c8191f96fa5cbd35b6c902a2.jpg
Yes, his butt pad is the cap from a cane.
That is some ghetto-baller AR Pistol shit right there.
Thanks Fledge.. that's the abortion right there. LPVO on a pistol.. yeah buddy..
What about the fore grip on that turd? Just my opinion, and I believe the NFA is bullshit, but it’s currently the law. The AR pistol thing is going to F us in the ass. As these are used in a mass shooting more and more, the general public doesn’t distinguish between a pistol or an AR, it’s an AR. Sooner or later the D’s will be back in power and whether it’s though new laws or adding justices to the SCOTUS, they are going after guns. The line bluring between rifles and pistols will make it easier to come after all semi autos.
What about the fore grip on that turd?
ATF says angled fore grips are kosher on a pistol. The collapsing extension as a brace is a hard sell.
AR "pistols" with braces are the new "must have" and every owner knows they are at the gray edge of the law.
Either SBRs will become so common that the tax stamp requirement is removed, or the ATF will change their rulings on braces.
The 'tard is strong in the AR "pistol" world as shown above, it won't be long before some asshat shoots up a mall or gay bar with one and forces the ATF's hand.
Andy
Doc Safari
11-01-18, 06:26
The 'tard is strong in the AR "pistol" world as shown above, it won't be long before some asshat shoots up a mall or gay bar with one and forces the ATF's hand.
Andy
This. Braces are the bump stocks of tomorrow. Bad juju. Just go through the process to get a legal SBR and sleep well at night.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181101/e52f8501c1cfad7447416a76f8a34da4.jpg
It looks like a something a rural meth head would put together for a PDW after seeing Snake Plisskin's Coreburner in Escape From L.A.
Someone should photoshop “neckbeard” on that instead of “blackbeard”.
That said, Pistol braces are not gray areas, IMO. The only gray is how the ATF interprets.
The idea that one concealable firearm is completely normal and fine, but a functionally identical “concealable firearm” needs a tax stamp is an issue with the laws, not the law-abiding citizens owning them.
AR "pistols" with braces are the new "must have" and every owner knows they are at the gray edge of the law.
No grayer than a regular brace. SB Tactical (inventor of the brace) works very closely with the ATF on the subject. Anyone that has actually used a brace as intended would far prefer an adjustable length of pull vs the set length.
Interesting that this is not a brace (thanks Fledge for the pics) but an adjustable pistol extension. Maxim makes good stuff and it looks like they no longer make the pistol extension. They have since moved to an adjustable SB tactical made brace. The legalities off all this (ar pistol, braces, pistol extensions, can you shoulder, can you not shoulder) is a mess IMO.
I think the moral of the story is DO NOT in any way modify your brace (probably to include making you pistol look like an abortion). Leave it bone stock and if you can include the paperwork in your gun case or in the pistol grip if you have storage. Link to SB Tactical letters - https://www.sb-tactical.com/resource-category/atf-letter/
FromMyColdDeadHand
11-01-18, 08:04
In my mind I was picturing a ThatGuy gun, and it was only 1/10 as bad as that thing. I'm surprised the jury didn't rule against him just based on the looks of the gun and that he must be breaking some law.
Jury question #1: What makes that an illegal weapon?
ATF answer: the rubber cane tip on the tube end.
Jury question #2: So if that piece of rubber was not there the weapon would be legal?
ATF answer: Yes.
Jury: not guilty.
Just my take on it and illustrates how stupid the law is.
Five_Point_Five_Six
11-01-18, 08:33
This. Braces are the bump stocks of tomorrow. Bad juju. Just go through the process to get a legal SBR and sleep well at night.
I have both. I can't transport a loaded SBR in my vehicle but I can legally transport and carry a loaded, concealed AR pistol. Both serve a purpose. Putting them in the same category as a bump stock isn't an accurate assessment.
The easiest solution would be to do away with the NFA and let people have bump stocks or SBRs with no restrictions.
Jury question #1: What makes that an illegal weapon?
ATF answer: the rubber cane tip on the tube end.
Jury question #2: So if that piece of rubber was not there the weapon would be legal?
ATF answer: Yes.
Jury: not guilty.
Just my take on it and illustrates how stupid the law is.This is spot on. It sets a good legal precedent.
If I were a jurer, I'd also be asking "Why the F did you waste my time with this nonsense?"
RetroRevolver77
11-01-18, 09:18
deleted
This is spot on. It sets a good legal precedent.
If I were a jurer, I'd also be asking "Why the F did you waste my time with this nonsense?"
It was an acquittal which isn’t case law. Does not help the cause at all.
FromMyColdDeadHand
11-01-18, 10:43
It was an acquittal which isn’t case law. Does not help the cause at all.
That's odd, but I guess I understand. If the state appealed the case and lost on a definable point, would that set a precedent.
Jury question #1: What makes that an illegal weapon?
ATF answer: the rubber cane tip on the tube end.
Jury question #2: So if that piece of rubber was not there the weapon would be legal?
ATF answer: Yes.
Jury: not guilty.
Just my take on it and illustrates how stupid the law is.
I thought that the ATF had said that cane tips on the end of extension tubes did not equal stocks, or am I mis-remembering?
MountainRaven
11-01-18, 14:35
I thought that the ATF had said that cane tips on the end of extension tubes did not equal stocks, or am I mis-remembering?
I believe they did.
Which is probably why the ATF didn't want the Defense to be able to present letters from the ATF about the legality of such things.
Doc Safari
11-01-18, 14:42
I believe they did.
Which is probably why the ATF didn't want the Defense to be able to present letters from the ATF about the legality of such things.
Shenanigans like this are a major reason why I don't trust them and why I think pistol braces are on borrowed time. Legal today, illegal tomorrow. The ATF is just too inconsistent and turns on a whim it seems. And what they put in a letter is only good as long as they adhere to it.
:sarcastic: OF COURSE this guy was an LPVO gay!
I have both. I can't transport a loaded SBR in my vehicle but I can legally transport and carry a loaded, concealed AR pistol. Both serve a purpose. Putting them in the same category as a bump stock isn't an accurate assessment.
The easiest solution would be to do away with the NFA and let people have bump stocks or SBRs with no restrictions.
Exactly! Thank you!
One of the stupid things is that you can't transport an SBR across state lines without asking permission. That was one big reason I was interested in a pistol with a brace. The laws are becoming stupid. They should do away with SBR's altogether.Depends on state that you line.
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Anyone know how he came to the attention of the ATF?
I thought that the ATF had said that cane tips on the end of extension tubes did not equal stocks, or am I mis-remembering?
No lawyer, but they were playing a word game. A cane tip on an extension tube is ok. A cane tip on a brace = modifying the brace. Per the latest letter you can shoulder a brace in its unaltered approved form or something to that effect.
It was a stupid charge to file and glad the jury saw through the bs.
Anyone know how he came to the attention of the ATF?Here's what the article says
"Toledo police responded to a domestic disturbance*call*in March at the home of Kelland and Christina Wright. Mr. Wright, a*Marine*veteran, allegedly threw a cell*phone*at his wife and was arrested. As a part of an arrest for a domestic violence complaint, police confiscated all*firearms*in the home, including an*AR*pistol*equipped with the Maxim cheek*rest.
When the*gun*was subsequently examined by the ATF, they deemed it an unregistered short*barrel*rifle*(SBR). That determination was based on the fact that, according to the ATF’s measurements, the Maxim cheek*rest*— which had been altered with the addition of a rubber “cane tip” on the end — resulted in a length of pull that’s greater than the 13.5-inch limit the ATF says is the maximum for any similar*AR*pistol*accessory."
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Averageman
11-01-18, 18:15
You know, I just don't see a reason to call the Police anymore, it would actually have to be a Life or Death event to involve them in to my life.
I've talked with folks from the BATFE at one time when I was trying to get some information on a SBR, the irony is of the two calls I made, there was wildly diverging opinions given to me over the phone as far as information.
This is an agency that's existence is no longer relevant.
This. Braces are the bump stocks of tomorrow. Bad juju. Just go through the process to get a legal SBR and sleep well at night.
This coming from YOU of all people? Seriously? Mr. Freedom himself? C'mon man, jeez!
No thanks on the SBR. Don't particularly care to get an ATF permission slip to cross a state boundary, or wait 6+ months, or go through the BS of fingerprinting/LEO signoff/photo. Sleep well at night until one day they tell you to hand it over.....and you can't deny having that. Other guns may or may not "disappear" but there's no saying "I sold it at a gun show" with an NFA item.
All that said, that guy should have been charged for the idiocy of that abortion he put together.
:sarcastic: OF COURSE this guy was an LPVO gay!
I wasn't gonna say that, but......:rolleyes:
Surprised he didn't have a bipod on that damn thing!
This. Braces are the bump stocks of tomorrow. Bad juju. Just go through the process to get a legal SBR and sleep well at night.
Not everybody wants an SBR. Ask the ATF for permission to take my Short barrelled AR across state lines? Wait months and months for a response? Tax stamps, special paperwork, asking permission. All bullshit. No thanks. I'll take an AR pistol all day long.
Every government employee that was involved in prosecuting this law abiding citizen on these stupid technicalities needs to be fired. What a ridiculous waste of time, money and resources.
Amen and think of the money and time and STRESS this guy and his family endured over nothing!! Which is why I SBR all my shit and toss my braces, I should not have to but....it would suck so effing bad to get in this shithole.
PB
PB
PatrioticDisorder
11-01-18, 20:03
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https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181101/57734cd3c8191f96fa5cbd35b6c902a2.jpg
Yes, his butt pad is the cap from a cane.
Just when you thought you’d seen everything. There it is, the Glock 40 problem solver, AR pistol edition.
I am very surprised this guy was charged with a crime. The ATF brought the case to an Assistant US Attorney, presumably after he posted pics of his ghetto blaster on line. They don't make independent charging decisions .It is not easy to get a federal prosecutor to approve charges. Our federal government has a 96+ percent conviction rate because they cherry pick their cases. This one was a loser.
As mentioned in previous posts, this defendant is probably financially screwed for life. That seems very unfair
I have not yet jumped on the AR pistol bandwagon. If I do I will keep ATF approval letters handy and will not modify the brace in any way.
FromMyColdDeadHand
11-01-18, 21:06
It looks like the AFG would interfere with a mag?
BADish lever
45degree safety
AAA cell flashlight
Laser
1-6 optic
KX3?
Skull lower
After-market trigger, of course.
That is; inspired.
Where is the ambi mag release? I feel cheated!
No grayer than a regular brace. SB Tactical (inventor of the brace) works very closely with the ATF on the subject. Anyone that has actually used a brace as intended would far prefer an adjustable length of pull vs the set length.
I meant all AR braces are in a gray area.
Andy
If you SMR something, you are now on the ATF radar and they know right where to go to confiscate it if the Democrat's would have their way sometime in the future. No thanks, I'll pass.
At least he gave that abomination a name , good grief I cant unseen that thing.
PB
Oh my, that thing should have been aborted.
Still fascinated as to what led to his arrest initially, this is typically the real face palm moments in these cases.
Five_Point_Five_Six
11-02-18, 11:26
If you SMR something, you are now on the ATF radar and they know right where to go to confiscate it if the Democrat's would have their way sometime in the future. No thanks, I'll pass.
Have you ever filled out a 4473? They already know.
Oh my, that thing should have been aborted.
Still fascinated as to what led to his arrest initially, this is typically the real face palm moments in these cases.Call for domestic distance. He threw a phone at his wife. Because it's a domestic cops confiscated all his firearms
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Have you ever filled out a 4473? They already know.
Mine have all been sold to someone ? at gunshows long ago :) . I believe it is a little more involved and there is more of a paper trail on NFA stuff.
Five_Point_Five_Six
11-02-18, 13:03
Mine have all been sold to someone ? at gunshows long ago :) . I believe it is a little more involved and there is more of a paper trail on NFA stuff.
If prior behavior is an indicator of how the ATF will go about confiscation, they won't be asking you for permission.
If prior behavior is an indicator of how the ATF will go about confiscation, they won't be asking you for permission.
This. If they are forcefully confiscating, you are going to have to prove you dont have them by “letting” them search your house. Ymmv, but you live once, and I want some fun toys so I quit worrying about “lists” a while ago.
Ever buy gun related stuff with a CC? They know you have one.
Mine have all been sold to someone ? at gunshows long ago :) . I believe it is a little more involved and there is more of a paper trail on NFA stuff.
Actually it's the opposite. Any gun store that has been audited by the ATF in the last 6 or 7 years has had their blue book scanned. With an NFA item the paperwork is tied to the device and not the user unlike a 4473 where the device is tied to the user. NFA documentation is all paper based with even the newer Eforms get converted to paper. From a technical perspective it would be far easier to create a database with all the scanned data of the audits (why the Obama admin did it in the first place) than to create one with the NFA data.
PS - The AFT has stated to the NRA that they are not creating a database with the scanned data as they are prohibited from doing so by appropriations act restriction which prohibits the consolidation or centralization of FFL records.
Talk to falconers living in California about how the feds will come check for violations.
Hard takedown swat type entry, one step removed from a no-knock.
Guy answered his door early morning and was met by a large number of Fed & State officers in swat type gear and tactics, guns drawn.
All because he had been falsely reported as violating Federal migratory bird laws by do-gooders who are anti falconry. Not a gun guy, no threats, nothing to indicate he would be a risk.
So imagine what they will do if they think you may be armed!
Averageman
11-02-18, 16:27
The other "lesson" to be learned here might actually be if you can't control your temper and decide to throw things at your spouse, you're likely to win a "stupid prize" for that.
As wrong and sometimes confusing these things may be or even get had he acted like a Man he would have avoided all of this.
Pistols and cane tips aside, this guy ****ed up when he lost his temper. He invited LE into his life and he got bent over for it. I'm actually surprised they didn't stack 20 different charges on his ass hoping that something would stick or that he'd plea out.
It's also interesting how many of y'all seem to think that when the cops show up to confiscate your stuff you can just tell them that you sold everything at a gunshow and they'll say "Aw shucks...OK, then...Whelp, sorry to bother you good citizen. Have a nice day." and go away. Naw, it won't be like that. They'll come at 3AM, kick in door, steamroll your ass, rip your ENTIRE house to shreds looking for your stash, then go out for brunch. If you're lucky, you won't make any "furtive movements"...
And yeah, you're already in their databases, so if you want a SBR or a janky pistol or whatever, get the damn thing and enjoy your life.
Have you ever filled out a 4473? They already know.
Everyone who has bought a gun from me and done 4473 is NOT on the Radar as a result of that 4473.
Everyone who has bought a gun from me and done 4473 is NOT on the Radar as a result of that 4473.
Five years in, and I've never been audited. Hundreds of 4473's locked away that the ATF has never seen. My only interaction with ATF was a phone call once asking me to fax them a copy of one single 4473. Talking to my other FFL friends, the only times the ATF has come knocking on them they have had a specific serial number or person they were looking for info on and they never even looked beyond that.
Pistols and cane tips aside, this guy ****ed up when he lost his temper. He invited LE into his life and he got bent over for it. I'm actually surprised they didn't stack 20 different charges on his ass hoping that something would stick or that he'd plea out.
It's also interesting how many of y'all seem to think that when the cops show up to confiscate your stuff you can just tell them that you sold everything at a gunshow and they'll say "Aw shucks...OK, then...Whelp, sorry to bother you good citizen. Have a nice day." and go away. Naw, it won't be like that. They'll come at 3AM, kick in door, steamroll your ass, rip your ENTIRE house to shreds looking for your stash, then go out for brunch. If you're lucky, you won't make any "furtive movements"...
And yeah, you're already in their databases, so if you want a SBR or a janky pistol or whatever, get the damn thing and enjoy your life.
And if it ever comes to that on a nation-wide scale (not some idiot throwing his phone at his wife) it won't happen in a vacuum. You'll know it's coming. Therefore if you actually have something to find if/when they come looking you're a moron (hint: America is a BIG country with lots and lots of places for things to be other than your house if Uncle Sam comes-a-knockin'). Try that with an NFA item. Oh, they may whip out paperwork showing that you bought an AR from Bob's Gun Shop a few years ago, but you have plausible deniability and if there is nothing to find then there isn't a hell of a lot they can do (expect them to be back of course, just to "be sure"). You don't have that with NFA items. Better pony it up pronto if they demand it.
MountainRaven
11-02-18, 21:22
And if it ever comes to that on a nation-wide scale (not some idiot throwing his phone at his wife) it won't happen in a vacuum. You'll know it's coming. Therefore if you actually have something to find if/when they come looking you're a moron (hint: America is a BIG country with lots and lots of places for things to be other than your house if Uncle Sam comes-a-knockin'). Try that with an NFA item. Oh, they may whip out paperwork showing that you bought an AR from Bob's Gun Shop a few years ago, but you have plausible deniability and if there is nothing to find then there isn't a hell of a lot they can do (expect them to be back of course, just to "be sure"). You don't have that with NFA items. Better pony it up pronto if they demand it.
I wouldn't count on not being arrested and held without charge for an indefinite period, if that event ever occurs. Never mind being blackbagged and sent to Gitmo or a, "black site".
And if it ever comes to that on a nation-wide scale (not some idiot throwing his phone at his wife) it won't happen in a vacuum. You'll know it's coming. Therefore if you actually have something to find if/when they come looking you're a moron (hint: America is a BIG country with lots and lots of places for things to be other than your house if Uncle Sam comes-a-knockin'). Try that with an NFA item. Oh, they may whip out paperwork showing that you bought an AR from Bob's Gun Shop a few years ago, but you have plausible deniability and if there is nothing to find then there isn't a hell of a lot they can do (expect them to be back of course, just to "be sure"). You don't have that with NFA items. Better pony it up pronto if they demand it.
This is pretty much the point I was making earlier in this thread. *If* it gets really bad at some point down the road, of course you better have a plan for your toys *before* you need to use it.
I am very surprised this guy was charged with a crime. The ATF brought the case to an Assistant US Attorney, presumably after he posted pics of his ghetto blaster on line. They don't make independent charging decisions .It is not easy to get a federal prosecutor to approve charges. Our federal government has a 96+ percent conviction rate because they cherry pick their cases. This one was a loser.
As mentioned in previous posts, this defendant is probably financially screwed for life. That seems very unfair
I have not yet jumped on the AR pistol bandwagon. If I do I will keep ATF approval letters handy and will not modify the brace in any way.
That is not how this guy came on the radar. He was arrested by local PD in OH for domestic violence. Local cops then confiscated his guns per state law and subsequently referred it to ATF.
I don’t know how things are in OH but in my area ATF Special Agents and the USAO are too busy with real crooks to mess with something like this. You are correct the USAO does like risky or novel cases.
I think the major problem here is the government/ATF lawyers fought against the defense showing the determination letters from the ATF that braces were "okay" to the jury.
The case was handled by the U.S. Attorney’s office like any other federal criminal case.
ATF opinion letters for things like SIG braces are only valid for the exact configuration submitted. If you modify the brace all bets are off and you are no longer covered by the opinion letter for the original item. It is very much a case of “change the facts and I will change my answer.”
Playing devils advocate here, my guess is the prosecution was based on the assertion that modifying the brace 1) made it into a “stock” and 2) modifying the brace meant the ATF opinion letter for original Maxim brace no longer applied to the modified item.
If you think like a lawyer, words have very specific meanings. The ATF approval letter for a “maxim brace” creates a specific legal definition of what a “maxim brace” is. A “maxim brace” now means on the exact maxim brace submitted to ATF for approval. if you modify the brace, legally tne “modified thing” you created no longer meets the definition of a “maxim brace” so the approval letter for a “maxim brace” is not relevant or applicable to the “modified thing.”
BoringGuy45
11-03-18, 00:33
And if it ever comes to that on a nation-wide scale (not some idiot throwing his phone at his wife) it won't happen in a vacuum. You'll know it's coming. Therefore if you actually have something to find if/when they come looking you're a moron (hint: America is a BIG country with lots and lots of places for things to be other than your house if Uncle Sam comes-a-knockin'). Try that with an NFA item. Oh, they may whip out paperwork showing that you bought an AR from Bob's Gun Shop a few years ago, but you have plausible deniability and if there is nothing to find then there isn't a hell of a lot they can do (expect them to be back of course, just to "be sure"). You don't have that with NFA items. Better pony it up pronto if they demand it.
If it comes to that point, I think (or at least hope) that most of us are less concerned about hiding our weapons, and more thinking about using them for the purpose which we got them for in the first place. If there ever was a nationwide confiscation order, even if we complied, the next thing we would be ordered to turn in is ourselves.
What seems to be the full story - https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2018/11/daniel-zimmerman/atf-suffers-rare-court-loss-in-ohio-short-barrel-rifle-prosecution/
If it comes to that point, I think (or at least hope) that most of us are less concerned about hiding our weapons, and more thinking about using them for the purpose which we got them for in the first place. If there ever was a nationwide confiscation order, even if we complied, the next thing we would be ordered to turn in is ourselves.
Discretion is the better part of valor. An M4 by each window as a SWAT team bum-rushes your house isn't the brightest idea; yeah, you might get one or two but you'd be toast. The smarter person has nothing to find and "stabs them in the back" at some point in the future. They trash people's houses? Gee, theirs just might burn to the ground with everyone in it. And things that go BOOM have more effect than things that go BANG. Just thinking out loud of course, I would never advocate such lawlessness.
Analogy: the Japanese used Banzai charges quite a bit early in the war. They took horrendous casualties but inflicted some too. Nonetheless it was a losing game. Towards the end, like on Iwo Jima and Okinawa, while they had an occasional human wave attack their strategy was more "bleed 'em dry" and that inflicted far more casualties on us than the previous tactics. Similar was the ChiComs actions in Korea (human wave assaults across the Yalu, eventually settling into a grinding, costly hill by hill stalemate). Point being that OVERT action looks good and can instill fear but will ultimately cost you. However, more COVERT (or sublime may be a better term) tactics "bleeds 'em dry" over the long grueling haul and is ultimately more costly to your foe. Ideally it would also have a more devious, insidious, cold-blooded aspect to it. That is certainly an element you'd want to inflict on an entity hell-bent on destroying or ending your life.
I wouldn't count on not being arrested and held without charge for an indefinite period, if that event ever occurs. Never mind being blackbagged and sent to Gitmo or a, "black site".
Not sure if you're serious or not, but if things have gone THAT far (i.e. just about every Constitutional protection thrown out the window) then we have a totally different situation than one of a relatively "controlled" gun confiscation don't we? Those types of stunts you mention would no doubt pull in people who otherwise would have been content just to see guns confiscated don't you think?
What seems to be the full story - https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2018/11/daniel-zimmerman/atf-suffers-rare-court-loss-in-ohio-short-barrel-rifle-prosecution/
My assumption about how the ATF got involved was incorrect. It is still unusual that the ATF went after this guy under these circumstances.
This thread has drifted into the topic of gun confiscation. This is an article written by Paul Howe in 2013. I think that a gun ban if very possible if the libtards end up running the show. An actual door to door confiscation....unlikely.
2nd Amendment and the Kool-aid Drinkers
by
Paul Howe
I have quietly watched and evaluated the in pouring of e-mails reference the liberal’s intent to seize guns and crush the second amendment. I want to add a few of my own thoughts on this issue as I have worked in and around all the people who could be tasked to seize your guns.
WHO’S COMING TO GET THEM?
United Nations (UN)
We are the UN. Other countries mostly join the U.N. to secure money, funding and training and few have any offensive combat capability. Most serve as guards at static locations and have no will to fight. America is the enforcement arm of the U.N. We have the money, equipment, personnel and lift platforms to get the job done.
If the president ever let the U.N. in this country, it would be a foreign invasion and armed Americans would stand up and crush them in a day. Our government would break down and the president would be ousted for letting foreign militaries invade our country.
Federal Government Military
Having served over 20 years in our military, I know that most soldiers would refuse the order to take part in the confiscation of weapons. First, the president would have to give the order, which is an “Illegal Order” in violation of the constitution. I don’t believe that service members would go back into the communities that raised them and conduct raids on good Americans in violation of the constitution.
Remember, these forces would have to come from a military base that is surrounded and supported by American communities. Civilians would simply cease to support the bases and they would fold in a short time. Cut of the fuel, food, electricity on bases and this would stop the silliness. Also, many, many service members live in the communities and they would have to travel from their houses to base unless they were locked down. In that case, their families would still be in the community and people would not be too friendly to those supporting these actions.
Federal Government DHS or TSA
The Federal government is not large enough or talented enough to seize guns. If they were to do 5-8 raids a day seizing guns, they would be physically and mentally exhausted and need a break. Physically conducting raids is exhausting. After the first few raids, the word would get out and Americans would start to fight back. It would take one good ambush from a house or along a travel route to decimate a tactical force or make it combat ineffective.
Next, most Federal Agencies work out of a fixed location centrally located in a community. Also, their personnel live in those communities along with their families. Once the word got out that they were doing raids in violation to the constitution, they and their families would be at risk. If they were to start raiding houses, kicking in doors and breaking in windows looking for legally owned guns, their homes would be subject to the same treatment by Americans rising up to defend themselves. They would shortly find themselves without a place to live.
State Law Enforcement
The Governor would have to order State and Local Law Enforcement to either:
Seize guns
Ignore the Federal Orders
If they ignore the Federal Orders, things would be tense, but people would be civil. If they started to seize guns, they only have limited people and assets to do this. Much the same consequences would take place as with the Federal Government.
Local Law Enforcement
Local Police and Sheriff Departments are the backbone of who protects American Citizens. A Sheriff or Chief of Police would have to give the order for his people to begin to seize weapons. Their people would either comply or see it as an illegal order and refuse.
Remember, Chiefs and Sheriff’s also have to live and work in the same communities they serve. As I described with the Federal Government, local Tactical Teams could probably only do 8-10 hits in a day and then need a break. So they hit ten houses and seize their guns, the word would get out and now they are subject to living in the same community as those they are attacking. It would not go well. Also, after one or two determined Americans or combat vets fought back, the team would lose many to death or injury and they would have made a decision whether to continue to push the fight. Remember also, they have to sleep sometime. Their homes and families would be at risk. It is an ugly scenario at best.
Nation of Combat Veterans and Patriots
Having been at war for over 10 years, we have a nation of combat vets and contractors that have seen more action than many of our WWII vets. It has been said that only a small percentage of Americans stood up to the British War machine in the Revolutionary War. Americans are better armed and trained today than at any time in our nation’s history. Think about what would happen if just our nation’s veterans stood up. People have been buying more guns and ammunition in the past five years than any time in my life. The guns and ammunition are out there along with the talent to use them.
Kool-Aid Drinkers
Kool-Aid Drinkers is the term I use to describe the Jonestown voluntarily massacre where the Peoples Temple Agricultural Project, a dedicated community western Guyana by the Peoples Temple led by cult leader Jim Jones intentionally drank poison Kool-Aid. Over 900 people died.
In every law enforcement, government and military agency or branch, there are a small number of Kool-Aid drinkers who would blindly follow orders. They would either be purged internally by their co-workers or people they attacked would stop their gene pool.
Also, at the police tactical team level, all members “volunteer” for the job and they can have the individual integrity to terminate their team service at any time if their profession becomes corrupt or misguided. I know many a good officer that has done that in the past.
Finally, there would be a certain number of American Kool-Aid drinkers that would turn in their weapons if asked. I believe it would be a small percentage as there are always those that do not have the will to resist or fight and they are not needed should thing get tough.
History of “Gun-Free Zones”
Our nation’s history is filled with examples of “gun-free” zones failed.
The Aurora Colorado movie massacre and the recent Connecticut shooting are two that come to mind. Also, remember the Fort Hood massacre where an Islamic extremist Major Nidal Malik Hasan killed 13 soldiers because our military bases are gun free zones. Combat trained soldiers had to be rescued by a security guard. That is embarrassing.
Evil came to all of these places and everyone was disarmed and not ready to fight back because they were gun free zones.
Think what would happen at a national level if the American people were disarmed. Another evil would come along either from inside our country or outside of it and resulting in our downfall.
How about others in recent history:
-In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
-In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
-Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
-China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated
-Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
-Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
-Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
-Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.
Solutions
Write your state representatives and let them know how you feel about this issue. I would like to think that most states would refuse the order.
Next, at the local level, talk to your Sheriff or Chief of Police and ask them if they would allow or support the federal government in their confiscation of firearms. Put them on the spot now and hold them accountable. I like to think that most states would refuse the order.
Should firearm confiscation begin, solutions are simple. If they cannot live in a community, they cannot work in a community. If their house goes away while they are at work confiscating guns, so be it. Allow them to leave with their family and what possessions they can pack in their car. Point them to California and let them know all the Hollywood types would be happy to financially support them in the fantasy land they wish to live in and that they are not welcome in Free America.
In the end I believe that guns are the glue that hold our country together. Guns keep the government in check and the individual American safe and free. Remove guns and the government will no longer be controlled by the people. The government will control the people.
Finally, it is claimed that the Battles of Lexington and Concord, in 1775 were started because General Gage attempted to carry out an order by the British government to disarm the population resulting in the “Shot heard round the world.”
About the Author
Paul R. Howe is a 20-year veteran and former Special Operations soldier and instructor. He owns Combat Shooting and Tactics (CSAT), where he consults with, trains and evaluates law enforcement and government agencies in technical and tactical techniques throughout the special operations spectrum.
Those of you who won’t own title-2 items because of a fear of registration are really missing out on owning the most enjoyable types of firearms IMO. If the political climate heads toward confiscation of firearms, we are going to have a whole lot more to worry about than whether you own title-2 firearms. Think the gov is following the law and not creating a database from 4473s? I doubt it very much. I recommend diving in and owning SBRs, SBSs, cans, DDs, and (budget allowing) MGs. Life is incomplete without some title-2 firearms. :)
Those of you who won’t own title-2 items because of a fear of registration are really missing out on owning the most enjoyable types of firearms IMO. If the political climate heads toward confiscation of firearms, we are going to have a whole lot more to worry about than whether you own title-2 firearms. Think the gov is following the law and not creating a database from 4473s? I doubt it very much. I recommend diving in and owning SBRs, SBSs, cans, DDs, and (budget allowing) MGs. Life is incomplete without some title-2 firearms. :)I'm surrounded by it.....
But I have several SBRs and MGs..and DD..and cans out of my orifice.
Every single person I know is just allergic to the tax.
I'm not...it's called insurance..
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
PatrioticDisorder
11-03-18, 09:52
Those of you who won’t own title-2 items because of a fear of registration are really missing out on owning the most enjoyable types of firearms IMO. If the political climate heads toward confiscation of firearms, we are going to have a whole lot more to worry about than whether you own title-2 firearms. Think the gov is following the law and not creating a database from 4473s? I doubt it very much. I recommend diving in and owning SBRs, SBSs, cans, DDs, and (budget allowing) MGs. Life is incomplete without some title-2 firearms. :)
Agreed, I will also add that IMO, the most likely way the gun grabbers implement future gun control is not by confiscation (they know it won’t work), rather by forcing title 1 guns to become title 2. That was Senator Frankenstein’s proposal after Sandy Hook, all AR’s, etc become NFA items anyway. The next step would be to ban them as being transferable, so that when you die they are destroyed. They know this is the easiest way to get compliance in the long run. They will deal with individuals as they die off, knowing their descendants will likely not make much of a fuss as the guns are confiscated.
I do not have a crystal ball, I actually think if we survive the next several years of gun grabbing attempts it will become almost impossible for the grabbers to implement further gun control. Look at polls from the 60s, it was something like 70-80% favored a handgun ban, the current number is 20%, the Overton window has shifted with handguns in our favor. The younger generations are actually the most pro-2a including when it comes to so called, “assault weapons.” IDK if it is the call of duty effect or what, but that is what the polls show and most Fudds tend to be from the older generation.
I'm surrounded by it.....
But I have several SBRs and MGs..and DD..and cans out of my orifice.
Every single person I know is just allergic to the tax.
I'm not...it's called insurance.
How so?
Five_Point_Five_Six
11-03-18, 10:57
Everyone who has bought a gun from me and done 4473 is NOT on the Radar as a result of that 4473.
Five years in, and I've never been audited. Hundreds of 4473's locked away that the ATF has never seen. My only interaction with ATF was a phone call once asking me to fax them a copy of one single 4473. Talking to my other FFL friends, the only times the ATF has come knocking on them they have had a specific serial number or person they were looking for info on and they never even looked beyond that.
If only that was the case across the board. My FFL has been in business for 45 years. He's lost count how many times he's been audited and he's never been found in violation of anything.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181101/e52f8501c1cfad7447416a76f8a34da4.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181101/57734cd3c8191f96fa5cbd35b6c902a2.jpg
Yes, his butt pad is the cap from a cane.
SBR laws are dumb, but that guy wasn't doing himself any favors. WTF?
The truth didn't stop Mr. Prince from getting everybody paranoid and trying to drum up business for his law firm. He even suggested the angled foregrip was under question which it never was. Never let a good crisis go to waste.
I'm surrounded by it.....
But I have several SBRs and MGs..and DD..and cans out of my orifice.
Every single person I know is just allergic to the tax.
I'm not...it's called insurance..
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
Insurance for what? The NFA tax is a luxury tax. It doesn't insure anything.
Andy
ATF opinion letters for things like SIG braces are only valid for the exact configuration submitted.
They are not valid at all. The US Attorney is under no obligation to honor them.
What seems to be the full story - https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2018/11/daniel-zimmerman/atf-suffers-rare-court-loss-in-ohio-short-barrel-rifle-prosecution/
Thanks for that!
Moose-Knuckle
11-06-18, 04:20
What the hell difference does it make if my barrel is 16" or 15"? Or 10"? Stupid stupid law.
The NFA and the subsequent BATFE "rulings" are a shining example of the idiocy of bureaucracy and the infringements on the 2nd Amendment.
This sums it up perfectly:
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1932/45051804142_5e87a9b97e_b.jpg
Here's what the article says
"Toledo police responded to a domestic disturbance*call*in March at the home of Kelland and Christina Wright. Mr. Wright, a*Marine*veteran, allegedly threw a cell*phone*at his wife and was arrested. As a part of an arrest for a domestic violence complaint, police confiscated all*firearms*in the home, including an*AR*pistol*equipped with the Maxim cheek*rest.
When the*gun*was subsequently examined by the ATF,...
So since when has the ATF examine firearms confiscated by municipal PD's after a misdemeanor domestic? :blink:
If I was a betting man I'd wage that the Toledo PD took one look at that thing and didn't know what the hell it was so they called the ATF for help to identify the firearm in question.
Stupid gun and stupid waste in tax-payer dollars to investigate and prosecute the owner.
The NFA and the subsequent BATFE "rulings" are a shining example of the idiocy of bureaucracy and the infringements on the 2nd Amendment.
This sums it up perfectly:
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1932/45051804142_5e87a9b97e_b.jpg
So since when has the ATF examine firearms confiscated by municipal PD's after a misdemeanor domestic? :blink:
If I was a betting man I'd wage that the Toledo PD took one look at that thing and didn't know what the hell it was so they called the ATF for help to identify the firearm in question.
Stupid gun and stupid waste in tax-payer dollars to investigate and prosecute the owner.That's exactly what it was
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Good luck..
I don't like the laws mysel
But I sleep better at night knowing that the local police know the laws and understand NFA.
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
The NFA and the subsequent BATFE "rulings" are a shining example of the idiocy of bureaucracy and the infringements on the 2nd Amendment.
This sums it up perfectly:
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1932/45051804142_5e87a9b97e_b.jpg
So since when has the ATF examine firearms confiscated by municipal PD's after a misdemeanor domestic? :blink:
If I was a betting man I'd wage that the Toledo PD took one look at that thing and didn't know what the hell it was so they called the ATF for help to identify the firearm in question.
Stupid gun and stupid waste in tax-payer dollars to investigate and prosecute the owner.
Every source I have seen said that is exactly the case. The PD called the ATF to have them evaluate it.
Government employees are a crime gang.
RetroRevolver77
11-26-18, 11:47
deleted
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