View Full Version : Savage AR's
Seems like everybody and their brother is into AR manufacturing these days. Savage is one brand that I more associate with bolt guns than AR's, but they have a growing lineup. Their "Recon" and "Patrol" models have been getting generally positive reviews for their accuracy (their use of Wylde chambering being a contributing factor?). Don't know about their overall quality/reliability/ etc.
Anyone have any positive/negative experiences with this particular flavor of AR?
This being their base model. The barrel gets high marks from most folks, but the Blackhawk furniture and rear sight seem to get a thumbs down:
https://www.savagearms.com/firearms/msr/msr-15/msr-15-patrol
It’s redundant, but it’s true...Savage is just trying to get their piece of the AR pie. Absolutely zero reason to get anything they have over a known quality brand. Savage makes cheap guns. They always have & they always will. You need only glance at how they outfit their rifles to see what they are. They’re aimed at someone who wants an AR, will probably shoot it 2 or 3 times a decade, put a Barska ACOG knockoff on top & never shoot it again.
Not trying to be a d***, but with prices what they are now, if you buy one of these or a Ruger, Saint, Sport, PSA, or any other bargain bin POS rifle over a Colt or other known, established maker, you’re making a poor decision.
The real question is, are they accurate? Are they reliable? After that the name on the side means little. The Colt snobs just like to hold up their's and say " you gotta have a Colt or it's crap" I have the pants off more guys with overpriced brand name AR's than I can count. Using Olympic Arms rifles. Once the basics are there the rest is up to the shooter.
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Why bother with known quantities like Colt, S&W, BCM, DD etc with proven, long term reliability?
Sure, if it's a range toy to finger **** once a year, get whatever you want.
I love hearing these "I out shoot everyone with my High Point" stories, but never see any evidence. So they are just stories.
Savage's 4140 barrels are a turn-off for some folks. The flip side is that they appear to be quite accurate.
Why bother with known quantities like Colt, S&W, BCM, DD etc with proven, long term reliability?
Sure, if it's a range toy to finger **** once a year, get whatever you want.
I love hearing these "I out shoot everyone with my High Point" stories, but never see any evidence. So they are just stories.Let's I have built over 400 Olympic AR's from scratch. Back in the day when they would ship a box of parts including the reciever set.
All would shoot sub MOA all day long. At the time Olympic was making the best AR's on the market. (Late 80's early 90's) I also refit a number of Colt's that couldn't hold a decent group but did after I installed a new Olympic barrel. So yeah if you have money to throw away just have your cherished name brand on the side go for it.
Like I said once the basics are there the rest is the shooter.
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Savage's 4140 barrels are a turn-off for some folks. The flip side is that they appear to be quite accurate.4140 has been used for barrel making for years with great success. Nothing wrong with it. Again just gun snobs.
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4140 has been used for barrel making for years with great success. Nothing wrong with it. Again just gun snobs.
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I believe the M1 barrels were 4140. They did okay.
From everything I've read there is a difference between 4140 and 4150 (of course) and 4150 and 4150CMV:
Note should be made that the steel quoted by the OP was 4150 CMV An examination of the chemical analysis of 4150 per AISI specifications shows that this steel is indeed an easier hardening grade but also that vanadium is not present in the alloy. The confusion in terms of barrel steel is that the correct alloy is not 4150 rather a modified vanadium bearing grade per mil specification. The presence of vanadium acts to slow the response of the steel to heat treatment but also as a grain refiner. This promotes excellent ductilty and a high Kic value.
With this noted buyers should beware that they are not getting what they believe is a premuim barrel steel when in fact the vendor has simply used plain AISI 4150 in place of 4140.
Unless you aim to hold the barrel at a temperature that exceeds the solution temperature for the alloy ie the quenching temperature for a significant period of time, the alloys 4140 and 4150 will behave in a near identical manner. It is virtually impossible to effect the grain structure of the steel at the temperatures found within even a heavily abused weapon. However the following are considerations in the selection of barrel steel
The 4150 CMV alloy will allow more margin for error if an overload condition occurs equally they have a much greater resistance to cracking if a heated barrel is suddenly quenched by seawater, snow, etc. This said M2 barrels have been seen with cracks running the full length following one of the rifling grooves from waves hitting a hot gun
At extreme cold levels the properties of 4150 CMV are desirable if the material is to exposed for significant time periods. It is this cold weather feature that is the primary driver in the material selection.
The selection of essentially a specialized gun steel over a commercial AISI grade is always preferable for a safety critical part. Unless the barrel maker can undertake both chemical and microscopic examination of a "rack grade" steel it is possible that the barrel is manufactured from a coarse grained alloy. This will impact the toughness of the finished part.
Bill Alexander
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?7263-Why-is-4150-steel-better/page2
vicious_cb
11-09-18, 00:34
"Cause accurate" is a poor selling point for anyone knowledgeable about the AR platform.
I wouldnt waste money on one.
Please stop with your nonsense. I can't even begin to count the amount of Olympic Arms AR's I have seen that weren't even assembled correctly. Not to mention their factory dremeled feedramps into the upper receivers. Incorrect stakings on carrier keys, out of spec chambers, and commercial receiver extensions that weren't torqued and staked correctly at all. Accuracy would be the last of my concerns.
54444
Let's I have built over 400 Olympic AR's from scratch. Back in the day when they would ship a box of parts including the reciever set.
All would shoot sub MOA all day long. At the time Olympic was making the best AR's on the market. (Late 80's early 90's) I also refit a number of Colt's that couldn't hold a decent group but did after I installed a new Olympic barrel. So yeah if you have money to throw away just have your cherished name brand on the side go for it.
Like I said once the basics are there the rest is the shooter.
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RobertTheTexan
11-09-18, 02:23
Anyone have any positive/negative experiences with this particular flavor of AR?
I think the comment double made all hit the nail on the head.
1. They are a budget gun manufacturer. Why expect something different with an different platform.
2. They aren’t bringing anything to market that isn’t already there.
3. A good barrel is part of a good system, but imo, not enough reason to buy an AR.
Those are the reasons I wouldn’t buy one.
But the biggest reason is that you can buy a rifle from a known entity like Colt and know that the quality checks are in place and they are proven. It’s like you know Yugo cars are cheap. And for the same price you could buy a Toyota, even a base model. Why would you buy a Yugo?
But that’s me and my opinion and after flying literally all night avoiding T-storms and landing in cities that were not part of my travel plans, who knows if I’m making sense.
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"Cause accurate" is a poor selling point for anyone knowledgeable about the AR platform.
I wouldnt waste money on one.So you don't care if your rifle is accurate, but you do care if it has a brand name on the side wow that makes tons of sense.
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wetidlerjr
11-09-18, 05:24
Please stop with your nonsense...
54444
That says it all! :thank_you2:
Please stop with your nonsense. I can't even begin to count the amount of Olympic Arms AR's I have seen that weren't even assembled correctly. Not to mention their factory dremeled feedramps into the upper receivers. Incorrect stakings on carrier keys, out of spec chambers, and commercial receiver extensions that weren't torqued and staked correctly at all. Accuracy would be the last of my concerns.
54444As I said I did the assembly on all of the ones I built. All parts were in spec. I highly doubt those feed ramps came like that from the factory. I have never seen it and I know I have seen several times more than you. What do you call incorrect stalking? Was it not staked or just not where you prefer it?
So were these actually factory assembled or by someone who bought a kit and assembled it? The only one spouting nonsense is you.
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wetidlerjr
11-09-18, 05:50
Please stop with your nonsense. I can't even begin to count the amount of Olympic Arms AR's I have seen that weren't even assembled correctly. Not to mention their factory dremeled feedramps into the upper receivers. Incorrect stakings on carrier keys, out of spec chambers, and commercial receiver extensions that weren't torqued and staked correctly at all. Accuracy would be the last of my concerns.
54444
As I said I did the assembly on all of the ones I built. All parts were in spec. I highly doubt those feed ramps came like that from the factory. I have never seen it and I know I have seen several times more than you. What do you call incorrect stalking? Was it not staked or just not where you prefer it?
So were these actually factory assembled or by someone who bought a kit and assembled it? The only one spouting nonsense is you.
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bgreed, I see you are not planning on staying here very long.
Those were factory purchased and owned by an agency in Washington State. I highly doubt you have seen many more AR's than I have, though I may be wrong. Incorrect is incorrect and that's pretty simple and has nothing to do with how I liked it.
As I said I did the assembly on all of the ones I built. All parts were in spec. I highly doubt those feed ramps came like that from the factory. I have never seen it and I know I have seen several times more than you. What do you call incorrect stalking? Was it not staked or just not where you prefer it?
So were these actually factory assembled or by someone who bought a kit and assembled it? The only one spouting nonsense is you.
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So you don't care if your rifle is accurate, but you do care if it has a brand name on the side wow that makes tons of sense.
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I think the reasoning is that the AR is a fighting rifle first and foremost and long term durability and the ability to function reliably during potentially high round-count situations is more important than being able to shoot a dime at 200 yds. Certain manufacturers adhere to or exceed many or all of the specs determined to be important in an AR pattern rifle intended for those "serious" purposes, and other manufacturers don't.
bgreed - there are forums for people like you, however I don't think this is one of them.
Five_Point_Five_Six
11-09-18, 07:39
The real question is, are they accurate? Are they reliable? After that the name on the side means little. The Colt snobs just like to hold up their's and say " you gotta have a Colt or it's crap" I have the pants off more guys with overpriced brand name AR's than I can count. Using Olympic Arms rifles. Once the basics are there the rest is up to the shooter.
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Let's I have built over 400 Olympic AR's from scratch. Back in the day when they would ship a box of parts including the reciever set.
All would shoot sub MOA all day long. At the time Olympic was making the best AR's on the market. (Late 80's early 90's) I also refit a number of Colt's that couldn't hold a decent group but did after I installed a new Olympic barrel. So yeah if you have money to throw away just have your cherished name brand on the side go for it.
Like I said once the basics are there the rest is the shooter.
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4140 has been used for barrel making for years with great success. Nothing wrong with it. Again just gun snobs.
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So you don't care if your rifle is accurate, but you do care if it has a brand name on the side wow that makes tons of sense.
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As I said I did the assembly on all of the ones I built. All parts were in spec. I highly doubt those feed ramps came like that from the factory. I have never seen it and I know I have seen several times more than you. What do you call incorrect stalking? Was it not staked or just not where you prefer it?
So were these actually factory assembled or by someone who bought a kit and assembled it? The only one spouting nonsense is you.
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You went full retard. Never go full retard.
Accuracy is important but I think most people don't buy an AR to be a tack driver. I looked at Savage offerings and I don't see the attraction based on the pricing I saw.
I think that Savage's out-of-the-box accuracy appeals to the legion of weekend paper punchers who want to see how well they can shoot. For hard use, probably not so much.
vicious_cb
11-09-18, 09:53
So you don't care if your rifle is accurate, but you do care if it has a brand name on the side wow that makes tons of sense.
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Accurate doesnt mean shit when your gun wont feed or extract properly due to a gas system or chamber problem.
Accurate doesnt mean shit when a bolt lug shears off and your rifle is down for several weeks at the factory, thats IF a company's CS is even willing to fix the issue.
Accurate doesnt mean shit when it takes X00's of rounds to "break in" and their CS calls you a liar that abused a barrel when you didnt.
Please stop with your nonsense. I can't even begin to count the amount of Olympic Arms AR's I have seen that weren't even assembled correctly. Not to mention their factory dremeled feedramps into the upper receivers.
54444
Clearly you have never seen an M4 feedramps designed for use with single stack mags.
:jester: :jester:
I think the reasoning is that the AR is a fighting rifle first and foremost and long term durability and the ability to function reliably during potentially high round-count situations is more important than being able to shoot a dime at 200 yds. Certain manufacturers adhere to or exceed many or all of the specs determined to be important in an AR pattern rifle intended for those "serious" purposes, and other manufacturers don't.
Well, then again, if you think about it, the military mindset once was that a wounded enemy is better than a dead enemy because of the resources that were tied up caring for them.
I believe 4 or 5 MOA @ 100M is the M4 mil-spec for accuracy, most shoot better than that, though. That may be acceptable for close-in HD, but for the most of the shooting I do 4 MOA at 100 to 120, plus my unsupported wobble would equal edge hits, or misses on the 2/3 IPSC plates I use.
So, yeah, rifles need to be as accurate as possible with the parameters of cost, size and weight.
From what I can tell, the accuracy of Savage AR's is related to their 5R barrels combined with a medium(ish) contour and a Wylde chamber.
The real question is, are they accurate? Are they reliable? After that the name on the side means little. The Colt snobs just like to hold up their's and say " you gotta have a Colt or it's crap" I have the pants off more guys with overpriced brand name AR's than I can count. Using Olympic Arms rifles. Once the basics are there the rest is up to the shooter.
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It's generally the guys that buy cheap junk brands, like the POS Olympic Arms you mention that are always trying to justify their cheap junk purchases to guys with Colt, BCM, DD (to name a few) products.
NYH1.
Mysteryman
11-09-18, 17:18
Well, then again, if you think about it, the military mindset once was that a wounded enemy is better than a dead enemy because of the resources that were tied up caring for them.
I believe 4 or 5 MOA @ 100M is the M4 mil-spec for accuracy, most shoot better than that, though. That may be acceptable for close-in HD, but for the most of the shooting I do 4 MOA at 100 to 120, plus my unsupported wobble would equal edge hits, or misses on the 2/3 IPSC plates I use.
So, yeah, rifles need to be as accurate as possible with the parameters of cost, size and weight.
Perhaps more time spent honing the user would yield better results than chasing gear.
vicious_cb
11-09-18, 20:31
So you don't care if your rifle is accurate, but you do care if it has a brand name on the side wow that makes tons of sense.
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Not sure how "accuracy isnt the only factor to determine whether an AR is worth buying" somehow got interpreted to: "So you like inaccurate pieces of shit ARs huh"
Its like arguing with the liberal, all they do is strawman
Sorry buddy, all my ARs are capable of 2 MOA or better.
https://i.imgflip.com/2302gj.jpg
Not sure how "accuracy isnt the only factor to determine whether an AR is worth buying" somehow got interpreted to: "So you like inaccurate pieces of shit ARs"
Its like arguing with the liberal, all they do is strawman
Sorry buddy, all my ARs are capable of 2 MOA or better.
Was it Molon who posted some stunning groups shot with a Colt 6920?
I think people read the gun rags where the ONLY good thing they can say about a mass marketed AR is that it is accurate and then assume the writer meant the accuracy was superior to other ARs.
Andy
Perhaps more time spent honing the user would yield better results than chasing gear.
Well, I have fumbled my way through a couple of sniper schools, as well as several patrol rifle instructor courses, I even have some trophies, but I'm obviously not as awesome as I should be.
Or maybe I'm honest, with 1 MOA to 2 MOA of wobble while shooting unsupported fairly quickly, plus a 2 MOA dot, I'm thinking that would equal edge hits with some misses using a 4 MOA rifle.
Myself, I wouldn't want a 4 MOA rifle, so yeah I'm just a big ol' bumblin' gear chaser. :sarcastic:
vicious_cb
11-09-18, 21:08
Was it Molon who posted some stunning groups shot with a Colt 6920?
I think people read the gun rags where the ONLY good thing they can say about a mass marketed AR is that it is accurate and then assume the writer meant the accuracy was superior to other ARs.
Andy
I wouldnt say stunning but alot better than most people would expect.
Originally Posted By Molon:
I performed accuracy testing of my Colt 6920 upper shooting from a bench-rest at 100 yards using hand-loaded 52 grain Sierra MatchKings. A Leupold VARI-X III scope set at 25X magnification was used for sighting.
Three 10-shot groups were obtained for analysis that measured as follows:
1.30"
1.36"
1.64".
The three 10-shot groups were overlayed on each other using the RSI Shooting Lab software program to obtain a 30-shot composite group. The mean radius of the composite group measured 0.41".
His Colt SOCOM results, on the other-hand, were pretty stunning.
Originally Posted By Molon:
The Colt 14.5" M4A1 SOCOM barrel used in this evaluation was free-floated during testing using a Daniel Defense Omega free-float railed handguard. Using the match-grade hand-loads, I fired three 10-shot groups from the Colt SOCOM barrel at a distance of 100 yards. Those groups had extreme spreads of:
0.90”
1.02”
0.93”
for a 10-shot group average extreme spread of 0.95”. All three of the 10-shot groups were over-layed on each other using RSI Shooting Lab to form a 30-shot composite group. The mean radius for the composite group was 0.35”.
The smallest 10-shot group.
http://www.box.net/shared/static/r9jgrq14zn.jpg
But people just buy Colts because of the brand name right? :rolleyes:
I mis-remembered and confused the 6920 and SOCOM groups.
1.6" 10 shot group is not stunning but definitely adequate.
Guns and Ammo would have shot a bunch of 3 round groups with the 6920, picked the best and declared it a 1/4 MOA gun.
Andy
Everyone loves the pretty pony, that’s all.
My last 6920 came from the factory with some kind of black paint (alumablack?) covering the multitude of dings on the upper and lower receivers. The machining of the selector stops is HORRIBLE underneath the anodizing - it literally looks like they were chewed off by a rabid beaver. I don't buy Colts for their beauty. I buy them for the quality of the parts, it's just automatic and I don't have to question it.
The other top tier companies such as Daniel Defense, LMT, BCM, etc. don't seem to have any issues with their finishes. I realize that Colt is used to mass production for military contracts where a few dents and dings probably don't violate DCMA's inspections, but maybe just a LITTLE more care with their civilian production.
FWIW, I have three Colts, and the external finish looks just fine.
The other top tier companies such as Daniel Defense, LMT, BCM, etc. don't seem to have any issues with their finishes.
Heck, if you lay budget brand Noreen, Anderson, Pro-Fab, and PSA stripped lower receivers alongside a Colt stripped lower receiver and judge by the finish of the forging flash in the contact areas on the 'backstrap' (exposed with the A2 grip), and inside the trigger guard area, plus overall appearance, in my judgement, having done so just a moment ago, Colt comes in last.
Granted, forging flash is not a war stopper, but attention to these areas in budget receivers makes me go hmmm!
Colt, LMT, BCM, etc. are still tops but the budget brands seem to have made some strides in recent years. They may have taken some cues from the upper tier companies. To use Stag Arms as an example, I don't think that many of us would put them as a top-flight manufacturer. Lately though, some of their barrels have gone from 4140, non-chromed, 1:9 twist to 4150, chromed, 1:7 types.
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