View Full Version : Releasing the slide after reload: slide release or slingshot?
Which is better? My hands are big enough to let my thumb release the slide release even on a stock 1911.
But I always use the slingshot method because I think it's more positive.
What do y'all do, and why?
What do the pros recommend?
Inkslinger
11-09-18, 16:50
Grab a timer. Whichever is best for you will be quite evident.
I don't slingshot. Sometimes I rack it overhand, sometimes I use the slide release. Sometimes the slide closes when I slam the magazine home. They all work fine for me.
Which is better? My hands are big enough to let my thumb release the slide release even on a stock 1911.
But I always use the slingshot method because I think it's more positive.
What do y'all do, and why?
What do the pros recommend?
Sounds like slingshot is best for you.
WickedWillis
11-09-18, 17:27
Whichever is faster at the time.
I grew up using the slide release, so it's far faster for me.
I have tried to switch techniques but more than half the time the slide was already forward because the thumb had done its muscle memory work already, so I stuck with ingrained technique which I have done for decades.
ramairthree
11-09-18, 18:21
When changing mags either auto forward or slide release.
When locking and loading sling shot.
There was definitely a movement for a time that preached going over the top as some sort of uber efficient gross motor skill thing. That's been falling off for a couple years, what with triggers and magazine releases requiring similar levels of manipulation.
Hit the slide stop if you want, grab over the top if you want. Both are valid. The slide stop is a little faster for most I suspect.
My thinking is...do what works for you. My suspicion is that the whole "slide after reload" techniques discussion (which frequently gets pretty heated) falls into the category of mental masturbation.
Over the top. I'm a lefty
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Economy of motion. Slide release is faster for right handed shooters or either-handed shooters if you have an ambidextrous gun.
After thousands of reloads, I never had a slide release fail to feed, assuming the mag was seated - so "more positive" is pure theory IME.
The most efficient way to release the slide without using the slide release/lock is roll the weak-hand thumb over the slide in front of the ejection port (see Frank Proctor video).
That said, practice both. There have been times I botched a reload due to wet hands, or accidental, premature auto-forwarding, and you just roll into a slide rack.
Spend time with a dry gun, learn to run it a few different ways, including 1-handed.
PattonWasRight
11-09-18, 19:51
The top competition shooters all use the release. As one person posted, a timer will make it clear as to which method is faster.
I use the slide release. Never had a problem and I shoot mostly 1911s, Beretta 92s and Glocks. It’s faster for me than the slingshot method.
Which is better? My hands are big enough to let my thumb release the slide release even on a stock 1911.
But I always use the slingshot method because I think it's more positive.
What do y'all do, and why?
What do the pros recommend?
First of all, I'm a lefty so I use over the top.
It has been my observation that most folks induce more movement into the pistol and hands than necessary when using the slingshot technique.
Overhand, back enough to disengage the slide catch and crisply release without sliding off the back of the slide is what I do.
Additionally, some pistols, such as Glocks and Sigs have slide catches, versus slide releases. Glock extended slide catches came into being due to American law enforcement's bias towards the slide releases found on the 1911, Hi-Power and Smith 39/59 series.
The standard for getting the pistol back into battery should be something that works every time, not most of the time. If you get used to auto-forwarding when you seat a mag, you will most likely look as if you are beating demons out of the pistol when it doesn't auto-forward - so I wouldn't train to expect the auto-forward.
Likewise, if you are occasionally missing the slide catch when using it as a slide release, I'd train to use the overhand method.
There is no absolutely right way, it should be dependent on what efficiently works for you - all the time.
My hands are big enough to let my thumb release the slide release even on a stock 1911.
I don't know of any person who can reach a non-extended slide release on a stock 1911 with their strong hand thumb. 1911s and some other pistols are best handled by releasing a slide lever with a support hand thumb, after you've seated a fresh mag with said support hand. Incidentally, this is also a technique that is probably the best compromise between speed and reliability. Dropping the slide stop with strong hand thumb is the fastest but it is very easy to drop the slide before seating the mag fully, especially when pushing for speed. More so with pistols with larger slide release levers, less so with smaller ones. You can't drop the slide too soon with overhand or sling shot, but those are slow and can get screwed up by short cycling or riding the slide. I've been in a strong hand thumb camp for years but I am considering to switch to a support hand thumb. I think it is more fool proof and more universal even if slightly slower.
Slide release. So much faster.
Overhand: Universal technique, always works, ambidextrous, can add some extra force and slide travel for positive feeding, more hand->gun contact in case of wet/mud/blood. More movement involved and slower. Some shooters will sweep their hands past the muzzle.
Slingshot: As above, tends to work a little better for slide mounted safeties.
Lever actuated slide release: Little motion or grip reset, controls co-located, faster. Lever may or may not be usable by all shooters (size, length, L-hand shooters).
Instructors have beat the "gross motor skill" drum for years, but it isn't valid. The other stuff can be, but not for as many shooters, as many systems, or as often as we've proclaimed.
SeriousStudent
11-10-18, 09:14
Overhand: Universal technique, always works, ambidextrous, can add some extra force and slide travel for positive feeding, more hand->gun contact in case of wet/mud/blood. More movement involved and slower. Some shooters will sweep their hands past the muzzle.
Slingshot: As above, tends to work a little better for slide mounted safeties.
Lever actuated slide release: Little motion or grip reset, controls co-located, faster. Lever may or may not be usable by all shooters (size, length, L-hand shooters).
Instructors have beat the "gross motor skill" drum for years, but it isn't valid. The other stuff can be, but not for as many shooters, as many systems, or as often as we've proclaimed.
LIKE.
Man, it's almost like you teach this stuff or something..... :cool:
I pretty much use the slide release. On a 1911 I sweep the slide release with my weak hand thumb. Not very difficult and quite repeatable. I don't think there is a single correct answer for every shooter or pistol, be adaptable.
Both. Either. Whatever works for you.
Slide release always faster. P series CZ is blocked by the decockee so you hit as you drive the support had out and easy peasy.
dwhitehorne
11-10-18, 12:35
Instructors have beat the "gross motor skill" drum for years, but it isn't valid. The other stuff can be, but not for as many shooter, as many systems, or as often as we've proclaimed.
Many still do. I always questioned if the slide release is such a difficult fine motor skill what is the trigger pull. I’m a slide release shooter but I teach shooters to do what works best for them. It is amazing watching people during simmunitions what they can and can’t do under the most minor stress. David
LIKE.
Man, it's almost like you teach this stuff or something..... :cool:
I watched a youtube video.
Both. Either. Whatever works for you.
I’m a slide release shooter but I teach shooters to do what works best for them. It is amazing watching people during simmunitions what they can and can’t do under the most minor stress. David
I'm a fan of shooter choice, with the caveat that it's an intelligent and informed choice. The problem with "do what works" is that many won't pressure test it. Almost everything works on a 72 degree indoor square range with a clean, lubricated, full size service gun. What happens when you apply your method to adverse weather, micro guns, mediocre ammunition, worn springs, etc. Now, add the gun-of-the-day guy that lacks consistency in anything.
Many still do. I always questioned if the slide release is such a difficult fine motor skill what is the trigger pull.
It's like asking them to divide by zero. But a great way to identify actual thinkers, shooters, and teachers, rather than certificate holders.
Use whichever technique you can do proficiently and consistently under stress in all scenarios on which you train.
Master the other techniques in case a situation turns to mud and your preferred technique does not work due to injury, i.e. you suffer broken fingers, a gash on a hand, a wound inflicted to an arm, etc.
dwhitehorne
11-10-18, 15:04
The problem with "do what works" is that many won't pressure it. Almost everything works on a 72 degree indoor square range with a clean, lubricated, full size service gun. What happens when you apply your method to adverse weather, micro guns, mediocre ammunition, worn springs, etc. Now, add the gun-of-the-day guy that lacks consistency in anything.
Good point. I guess I should qualify my statement. We stress using the slide release and push it really hard in our program. Our issue is at the basic academy it is all sling shot and they are not allowed to use the slide release. (gross motor skill thing) Even though we have pushed using the slide release for years as a HK agency, under any type of stress the officers revert to their beginning basic training and sling shot the slide. After years of watching multiple officers revert back in training I just remind them of the benefits of the slide release, shake my head and tell them do what works best for them.
I see the same thing with the AR weapons and officers pulling the charging handle with strong hand instead of hitting the bolt release on a emergency reload. We have never taught that in 16 years of our patrol rifle program, but all the former Marines still glue their support hand to the rifle and want to do everything with their strong hand. David
I don't know of any person who can reach a non-extended slide release on a stock 1911 with their strong hand thumb. 1911s and some other pistols are best handled by releasing a slide lever with a support hand thumb, after you've seated a fresh mag with said support hand. Incidentally, this is also a technique that is probably the best compromise between speed and reliability. Dropping the slide stop with strong hand thumb is the fastest but it is very easy to drop the slide before seating the mag fully, especially when pushing for speed. More so with pistols with larger slide release levers, less so with smaller ones. You can't drop the slide too soon with overhand or sling shot, but those are slow and can get screwed up by short cycling or riding the slide. I've been in a strong hand thumb camp for years but I am considering to switch to a support hand thumb. I think it is more fool proof and more universal even if slightly slower.
U-Vibe is 5'10" and has to hunt for XXL gloves.
This video was posted by Jon Lovell just a few weeks ago on the very subject:
https://youtu.be/Q3NBGH5TMgs
This video was posted by Jon Lovell just a few weeks ago on the very subject:
"Pick something, have a good reason, and shut up." Like.
I use the slide release. Our other instructors tend to preach overhand for the “gross motor skill” reason, which I’ve been trying to break. On the line I’m much faster than the others using the overhand method, works for me.
I prefer slide stop, but...
...small arms instructors told us that using the slide stop will lead the part to breaking much sooner than it otherwise would.
Is this false? Please advise...
I have OEM extended slide stops on all my duty Glocks and use them and the overhand method interchangeably depending on the situation. I train slide stop for speed but ready to transition to overhand for any reason to include dropping the slide from unique positions and clearing jams.
For example speed reloading from a static standing stance would be slide stop but from a more dynamic crouched stance may be overhand because of body/arm position. I find myself using overhand when admin reloading and visually concentrating on something else. As with everything it all depends on your own specific situation and needs.
Choose. Train. Have a backup plan. Train that too!
Dennis.
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I prefer slide stop, but...
...small arms instructors told us that using the slide stop will lead the part to breaking much sooner than it otherwise would.
Is this false? Please advise...
I fail to see how this would lead to " the part to breaking much sooner than it otherwise would."
This may be the same "instructors" who preach that using the SS is a "fine motor" function and "under duress, one is incapable of fine motor skills"- hence the "gross motor" of yanking on slide stop.
My question would be; what is a trigger press, gross motor?
Hell no.
I've heard many including LAV say that using the slide release is faster. I believe it. Problem is that i learned slingshot 26 years ago at Gunsite. I've tried the recommended approach during matches and simply end up complicating a task that should be devoid of same. My guess is that once you learn your desired method, stick to it.
I also believe some of this has to do with the gun itself and the size of the slide release. If using a 1911 or Beretta then using the slide release becomes much easier. With a Glock, sling shot works for me.
For me and my needs, reliably getting the gun back into action after a reload is what matters. The speed is only marginally important to me in the various courses I take or the action pistol competitions I shoot. Speed is pretty much moot (to me) for self defense since, in the extremely unlikely event I would ever need a firearm to defend myself, it would be even more unlikely that I would need to reload it, and I never carry an extra magazine anyway. Your mileage may vary, and more power to you.
This is one of those situations where whatever you do well is correct. I've shot pistols for over 20 years and use the slide stop/release and NEVER had the weapon not reload itself. EVER. I'm sure it would be the same if I used a different technique (I tried but more than half the time the slide was already forward, thumb muscle memory was hard to change).
phidelt208
11-17-18, 18:04
This is one of those things in the gun world that is up to each person. Its been proven over and over the side release is faster. That doesn't mean its the end all or that its better. There are a lot more reasons to rack the side vs useing the slide release.
Everyone has to learn why they shoot and what they want out of there training, once that is answered you can make an educated decision on what is BEST for you.
hopetonbrown
11-17-18, 18:32
If you like being slow and inefficient, use your slingshot/overhand technique.
If you've fallen for the "fine vs gross motor skill" argument, search for "fine vs gross motor skills" on youtube and ignore all the firearms related vids. What remains are videos from health care professionals who don't describe anything that resembles pulling on a slide with your thumb, palm and fingers a "gross motor skill".
If you like being slow and inefficient, use your slingshot/overhand technique.
If you've fallen for the "fine vs gross motor skill" argument, search for "fine vs gross motor skills" on youtube and ignore all the firearms related vids. What remains are videos from health care professionals who don't describe anything that resembles pulling on a slide with your thumb, palm and fingers a "gross motor skill".What do you do as a lefty?
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hopetonbrown
11-17-18, 18:39
What do you do as a lefty?
Sent from my XT1650 using TapatalkI am a lefty. I shoot right handed.
For Gen 4 and earlier Glocks you can use your index finger.
https://youtu.be/B92XlNjbYyA
I am a lefty. I shoot right handed.
For Gen 4 and earlier Glocks you can use your index finger.
https://youtu.be/B92XlNjbYyAI'm a lefty I shoot left handed! If you shoot right handed it doesn't count. I don't own 4th gen glocks. Nor do I feel like spending $500 to be 1/100 of a second faster. I also don't do accessories or aftermarket. Either I like the firearm as is or I don't buy. All my guns are stock as bought. The guy in the video doesn't state times so it's hard to say what's actually faster.
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hopetonbrown
11-17-18, 20:26
I'm a lefty I shoot left handed! If you shoot right handed it doesn't count. I don't own 4th gen glocks. Nor do I feel like spending $500 to be 1/100 of a second faster. I also don't do accessories or aftermarket. Either I like the firearm as is or I don't buy. All my guns are stock as bought. The guy in the video doesn't state times so it's hard to say what's actually faster.
Sent from my XT1650 using TapatalkShot timers don't register 1/100th seconds.
If you asked anybody remotely serious about running or cycling, they could tell you their average mile times.
Anybody lifting can tell you their best dead lift weight.
Most people who engage in athletic endeavors keep track of their scores, times, etc.
But for whatever reason most guys who shoot pistols have no idea what their reload times are.
Like I said, if you like being slow and inefficient, keep on keeping on.
Shot timers don't register 1/100th seconds.
If you asked anybody remotely serious about running or cycling, they could tell you their average mile times.
Anybody lifting can tell you their best dead lift weight.
Most people who engage in athletic endeavors keep track of their scores, times, etc.
But for whatever reason most guys who shoot pistols have no idea what their reload times are.
Like I said, if you like being slow and inefficient, keep on keeping on.Obviously sarcasm was over your head.
Define slow and in efficient. .2 of a second? .3? Out for lunch?
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556BlackRifle
11-17-18, 20:43
I've done both but after years of training I use the overhand rack method. It's reflexive. Just like clearing malfunctions. Reload times may be slightly longer but I do it without thinking about it.
Overhand: Universal technique, always works, .
While there are other, better, options on the market now, "always" doesn't always apply to using it on the Kahr mini polymer pistols.
WRT time... ~0.5 seconds is about the minimum difference between using the lever and using a slingshot or overhand. In my measures, most reasonably proficient shooters are within the 0.5-0.75 range. Obviously, time increases as proficiency decreases.
While there are other, better, options on the market now, "always" doesn't always apply to using it on the Kahr mini polymer pistols.
Say more. Why doesn't it work?
Shot timers don't register 1/100th seconds.
If you asked anybody remotely serious about running or cycling, they could tell you their average mile times.
Anybody lifting can tell you their best dead lift weight.
Most people who engage in athletic endeavors keep track of their scores, times, etc.
But for whatever reason most guys who shoot pistols have no idea what their reload times are.
Like I said, if you like being slow and inefficient, keep on keeping on.
I agree with everything you said, except that my pocket proII does measure 1/100th seconds.
____________________
Reliable and fast is not mutually exclusive. Train to be most efficient with your gun... but know how to manipulate any gun...
for left handed, you can use a few different methods, I use my trigger finger on glocks and m&p, but roll the gun over and rack with the front of the slide on others. Use a timer and see whats most effective.
IMO no time needs to be spent training for "battlefield pickups". Running your gun is #1. The contingency I use for my gun will work with any. If the slide release fails, you should automatically roll into racking the slide.
WRT time... ~0.5 seconds is about the minimum difference between using the lever and using a slingshot or overhand. In my measures, most reasonably proficient shooters are within the 0.5-0.75 range. Obviously, time increases as proficiency decreases.
Say more. Why doesn't it work?
Some quirk with the Kahr mechanism. Most will fail to feed when pulling the slide back to load the first round while using the slide release will chamber without a problem.
Better stuff on the market now, but 10+ years ago they were a fairly unique item.
Shot timers don't register 1/100th seconds.
If you asked anybody remotely serious about running or cycling, they could tell you their average mile times.
Anybody lifting can tell you their best dead lift weight.
Most people who engage in athletic endeavors keep track of their scores, times, etc.
But for whatever reason most guys who shoot pistols have no idea what their reload times are.
Like I said, if you like being slow and inefficient, keep on keeping on.
“Slow is smooth, smooth is fast”.
What possible difference would 0.2 seconds make to your average non-competitive pistol shooter?
hopetonbrown
11-17-18, 23:12
“Slow is smooth, smooth is fast”.
What possible difference would 0.2 seconds make to your average non-competitive pistol shooter?Why aren't you a competitive pistol shooter?
Every gunfight is a competition.
The difference as mentioned above is more like a half second. The average idiot can probably pull the trigger 4 times a second, so you're standing there with your dick in your hand for 2 more incoming shots than you need to.
Attached photo is former Recon Marine/Army SF/CAG/AWG Mike Pannone's take on the "slow is smooth, smooth is fast" phallacy.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181118/987bb4ce96b86e45e8b2053cdd3165f4.jpg
MountainRaven
11-17-18, 23:32
“Slow is smooth, smooth is fast”.
What possible difference would 0.2 seconds make to your average non-competitive pistol shooter?
Well, for your average shooter, 0.2 seconds is about the difference between being shot once and being shot twice.
Why aren't you a competitive pistol shooter?
Every gunfight is a competition.
The difference as mentioned above is more like a half second. The average idiot can probably pull the trigger 4 times a second, so you're standing there with your dick in your hand for 2 more incoming shots than you need to.
Well, if your gunfight survival hinges on reloading .5 faster, I'd say you've screwed the pooch in either marksmanship or cover usage.
I think what gets you shot is standing there, whether your dick is in your hand or not.
And every shot timer I've ever used measures hundredths.
In terms of fast follows form - apparently you've never learned to really drive - fast does follow form.
I use the slide release...it works for me..
Some quirk with the Kahr mechanism. Most will fail to feed when pulling the slide back to load the first round while using the slide release will chamber without a problem.
Better stuff on the market now, but 10+ years ago they were a fairly unique item.Very short sllde travel with super stiff springs. If I'm careful and deliberate I can slingshot my kahr, but slide stop is faster and 100% reliable. And what I do anyway to decades of 1911 type pistol use.
Why aren't you a competitive pistol shooter?
Every gunfight is a competition.
The difference as mentioned above is more like a half second. The average idiot can probably pull the trigger 4 times a second, so you're standing there with your dick in your hand for 2 more incoming shots than you need to.
Attached photo is former Recon Marine/Army SF/CAG/AWG Mike Pannone's take on the "slow is smooth, smooth is fast" phallacy.
Having committed to having the capability of armed self defense, I feel that it’s my obligation to be competent with a pistol. I train regularly, and I am competent. In fact, I’m pretty good. Gunslinger fantasies aren’t part of that ethos, however, given my particular needs and lifestyle. You may live in a substantially more dangerous environment, or at least perceive it as such, in which case worrying about .2 seconds on your draw or reload may be important to you. Train away. For me, I’m fast enough and competent enough to meet my likely self-defense needs.
Very short sllde travel with super stiff springs.
Indeed the correct answer why Kahr recommends the slide stop use. Not limited to Kahrs, some 1911 users found their guns don't sling shot after installing a shock buff, and I think there was something about some models of Les Baer 1911s having same issues even without a shock buff.
hopetonbrown
11-18-18, 10:26
I’m pretty good.. I’m fast enough and competent enough to meet my likely self-defense needs.
How did you determine that?
Scott Jedlinski of Modern Samurai Project had a set of standards in mind about what would constitute a "good" shooter. Is yours similar in any way?
Drills and time standards:
Dot Torture No time limit. Perfect 50 at 5 yards.
F.A.S.Test 6 seconds clean.
B8 100 PT 25 yards 90 or better
1 reload 1 at 7 yards from concealment- 4 seconds at 7 yards in the Alpha of an IPSC target.
1 shot draw from concealment-1.5 seconds at 7 yards IPSC Alpha
Bill Drill from concealment -3 seconds 7 yards IPSC target in the Alpha.
“Don't be afraid to give up the good to go for the great” -John D. Rockefeller
Well, for your average shooter, 0.2 seconds is about the difference between being shot once and being shot twice.
#Bullshit
Who do you think you are going to be dealing with in most realistic scenarios? Wyatt Earp? Most of the thugs you'll encounter would be lucky to even hit you. Quit posting nonsense spouted by those who want to sell you tacticool classes.
Practice shooting your guns, however you like, 99.9% will never have to use them, let alone be in a situation where .2 seconds makes a shit of difference.
I'd be willing to bet most of the shot clock watchers would wet their pants if confronted.
hopetonbrown
11-18-18, 11:27
#Bullshit
Who do you think you are going to be dealing with in most realistic scenarios? Wyatt Earp? Most of the thugs you'll encounter would be lucky to even hit you. Quit posting nonsense spouted by those who want to sell you tacticool classes.
Practice shooting your guns, however you like, 99.9% will never have to use them, let alone be in a situation where .2 seconds makes a shit of difference.
I'd be willing to bet most of the shot clock watchers would wet their pants if confronted.Why does people trying to become better shooters make you so angry?
I wonder if there's a basketball forum somewhere where people are against making more baskets.
How did you determine that?
Subjectively. I can draw, fire, usually hit the target...all without dropping the gun. Most of the time. I'm comfortable that shaving my draw/fire/hit time by .2 seconds will have zero effect on my ability to survive the fantasy gunfight that some think I should be preparing for. As to reloads...irrelevant for me since, if I do happen to be carrying a gun, I don't carry an extra magazine anyway.
Shooting is your hobby. I get that. You want to be really good at it. No doubt that if we were ever on the range together I would marvel at your skill. Me...not as driven. It's a tool. My need and risk is low-level. I'm satisfied with merely competent.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181118/987bb4ce96b86e45e8b2053cdd3165f4.jpg
Whoa! I was told there would be no math.
SeriousStudent
11-18-18, 11:49
Stop bitching at each other, or get out of the thread.
Get a timer, test your hypothesis. Be sure and test it cold, with no warm up. When RayRay tries to rob you, he's probably not going to spot you a couple of practice sessions.
Start with a magazine with a single round, to simulate an emergency reload after shooting to slide lock. Then set up a failure to feed scenario by not fully seating a mag after a chambering a live round, and then a failure to extract scenario. You will start finding that you need to use a slide stop to lock the slide back to clear, and then cycle the slide manually multiple times.
So gee - "it depends." You need both, and you need to be able to exercise them on demand without thinking. John Hearne calls this concept "automaticity". Mike Pannone preaches knowing how to clear malfunctions rapidly and with no hesitation - recognizing them and performing them without a conscious decision-making process. Unconscious competence should be your desired level of skill in any endeavor.
And if you don't know who those two guys are - you need to go do some research before expressing a cast-iron opinion.
Is it a colossal pain in the ass to spend a day at the range with a friend practicing malfunction drills? Yes, it is a beating. It's also a damn good idea. I try and spend at least one range session a month doing nothing but malfunction clearing.
THEN - Come back and post your data. Include weapons and ammo used, factory or after-market magazines, range conditions and any other pertinent FACTS.
Until then, the answer is always going to be "it depends."
An unloaded pistol is a small, lightweight club. Know how to get back in the fight in an expeditious manner.
ramairthree
11-18-18, 13:33
#Bullshit
Who do you think you are going to be dealing with in most realistic scenarios? Wyatt Earp? Most of the thugs you'll encounter would be lucky to even hit you. Quit posting nonsense spouted by those who want to sell you tacticool classes.
Practice shooting your guns, however you like, 99.9% will never have to use them, let alone be in a situation where .2 seconds makes a shit of difference.
I'd be willing to bet most of the shot clock watchers would wet their pants if confronted.
Have you seen the recent dash cam video from a recent traffic stop. Driver opened the door, fired a few from concealment, the. Looked like a mag changed followed by firing while advancing with a decent group through the windshield where the driver would be by report. Dated techniques it looked like, from pre body armor era, but effective. He was trained and competent. Better than 9 out of ten LEOs I see in the videos that pop up. I would like everyone that has to be in a gunfight to come up against the unskilled side shooter, but I wouldn’t count on it.
Indeed the correct answer why Kahr recommends the slide stop use. Not limited to Kahrs, some 1911 users found their guns don't sling shot after installing a shock buff, and I think there was something about some models of Les Baer 1911s having same issues even without a shock buff.
I had forgot about that issue with buffers. Wasn't as bad as Kahr though.
MountainRaven
11-18-18, 13:42
#Bullshit
Who do you think you are going to be dealing with in most realistic scenarios? Wyatt Earp? Most of the thugs you'll encounter would be lucky to even hit you. Quit posting nonsense spouted by those who want to sell you tacticool classes.
#YouDon'tKnowWhatYouDon'tKnow
If you keep training for the best case scenario, why do you even bother with a gun?
Practice shooting your guns, however you like, 99.9% will never have to use them, let alone be in a situation where .2 seconds makes a shit of difference.
So you carry a 380 in your pocket, I take it? Since it's all you're ever likely to need, seeing as you'll probably never need it.
Do you carry a tourniquet? A first aid kit? Do you know how to use them? Do you know how to perform CPR? Or is that just, "tacticool," bullshit spouted by people wanting to make money off the ignorant? I'm sure you carry a cell phone, do you know how to be a good witness for the police and dispatch while dialing 911?
I'd be willing to bet most of the shot clock watchers would wet their pants if confronted.
I'd bet that the percentage of shot clock watchers who wet their pants if confronted is much lower than the percentage of, "never seen a shot timer in a gun fight," guys who wet their pants if confronted. I bet that the shot clock watchers get a higher number of hits on target and more combat effective hits than the latter group, when they need to employ their firearms.
If you're not training with a shot timer, you're just masturbating.
(If you're not training with a high degree of accuracy that you must meet under both slow fire and timed fire, you're just masturbating, too.)
SeriousStudent
11-18-18, 13:48
Mountainraven (and everybody else): Read my post where I said to stop bitching at each other. That was not a request.
Read and heed, or get used to being banned.
If we're honest with ourselves... The likelihood of ever producing a gun in a confrontation is very, very low. Lower still are firing the gun, firing more than a few rounds, or reloading the gun. Except for the outlier events, very little proficiency will be required for success and the minutiae we debate will be nearly meaningless. The pursuit of excellence and the outlier is not unworthy, but all this is what it is. Fortunately, everyone here can be responsible for themselves and make their own decisions.
I recommend the work of Claude Werner and Tom Givens for further thought and perspective on these points.
There are 6 to 8 of us that get together each Friday and shoot.
The weekly “match” ranges from mini field course, with up to 3 shooting positions to high count drills from 40 yds to contact distance.
All shooters are gun guys, the worst of the lot would do in a pinch to cover your ass.
One of the guys recently attended a “class”. At the class the instructor (don’t remember name) insisted on slingshot reload from slide lock. This irregardless of weapon type.
My bud, who attended class was now using this method instead of support hand thumb on SS. This guy shoots a 1911.
I wanted to prove a point to my bud.
We did several runs of “start with 5 rds in mag/chamber hot, shoot 2 rds on 3 targets, reload/repeat”.
Everyone was shooting 1911’s (most of us are old).
We repeated drill using support hand thumb on SS to drop slide on fresh magazine.
The differences in times ranged from .55 for weak hand thumb on SS to over a full second for overhand or sling shot, depending on skill level as you’d expect.
A half second is a long time when you’re shooting, that’s 2 to 3 rds in the face, depending on distance.
My stance; if the weapon allows it- I’ll use weak hand thumb to drop slide.
If we're honest with ourselves... The likelihood of ever producing a gun in a confrontation is very, very low. Lower still are firing the gun, firing more than a few rounds, or reloading the gun. Except for the outlier events, very little proficiency will be required for success and the minutiae we debate will be nearly meaningless. The pursuit of excellence and the outlier is not unworthy, but all this is what it is. Fortunately, everyone here can be responsible for themselves and make their own decisions.
I recommend the work of Claude Werner and Tom Givens for further thought and perspective on these points.
As usual, a well-reasoned and dispassionate position speaking to practicality on an emotional topic.
.
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I pretty much use the slide release. On a 1911 I sweep the slide release with my weak hand thumb. Not very difficult and quite repeatable. I don't think there is a single correct answer for every shooter or pistol, be adaptable.
Also my preferred method with my Colt government. With my M9 I use my strong hand thumb.
Defaultmp3
11-18-18, 16:42
I think it is also useful to differentiate between power stroking (the overhand grasp) and slingshotting (pinching the rear with the thumb). An instructor at a class I had been to had a strong preference toward slingshotting over power stroking for any manipulation where the two would be used; his argument was that he had seen more issues with power stroking. During his time in CAG, he had seen folks get mud in the rear notch when power stroking, and also relayed a story about how a team mate of his accidentally got a bit of glove into the ejection port, with dire consequences.
That being said, I still use the power stroke for most things, as I have the RMR to grab, which provides a good index point to prevent any issues with the ejection port.
Years ago, I broke my support hand thumb while struggling with a combative subject. Fortunately, I did not have to use a firearm to gain control of the subject.
Unexpected things happen during a violent confrontation. Use the slingshot method or use the slide stop lever if you think it works best for you. I will continue to reach over the top with the support hand and grasp the top of the slide in lieu of using the sling shot method, because I think I should be able to perform the task with a broken thumb. It's also the same movement I'll use to clear a stoppage.
The Dumb Gun Collector
11-18-18, 18:07
Slide release.
Mysteryman
11-18-18, 18:38
Years ago, I broke my support hand thumb while struggling with a combative subject. Fortunately, I did not have to use a firearm to gain control of the subject.
Unexpected things happen during a violent confrontation. Use the slingshot method or use the slide stop lever if you think it works best for you. I will continue to reach over the top with the support hand and grasp the top of the slide in lieu of using the sling shot method, because I think I should be able to perform the task with a broken thumb. It's also the same movement I'll use to clear a stoppage.
Agreed 100%.
As was mentioned, the potential need for a reload during the highly unlikely event of using your firearm is very close to zero. Overhand or sling shot works on all pistols(don't care about garbage Kahr's) and works for both left and right handed users. It mimics your immediate action drills and also crosses over to your semi auto rifle(AR). More time should be spent on situational awareness, tactics, and marksmanship. A reload is most often required when previous rounds failed to hit their intended mark. Faster reloads for the poor marksman simply equates to being an express lane to victimization.
It may not come down to reloading because a weapon runs dry. It may be reloading after clearing a malfunction after one or two shots. Anyone who has fired enough rounds will tell you equipment breaks, often at the most inopportune moment.
Gear breaks, bones break. If you are not training to prepare for one or both scenarios, you are not training hard enough.
There are 6 to 8 of us that get together each Friday and shoot.
The weekly “match” ranges from mini field course, with up to 3 shooting positions to high count drills from 40 yds to contact distance.
All shooters are gun guys, the worst of the lot would do in a pinch to cover your ass.
One of the guys recently attended a “class”. At the class the instructor (don’t remember name) insisted on slingshot reload from slide lock. This irregardless of weapon type.
My bud, who attended class was now using this method instead of support hand thumb on SS. This guy shoots a 1911.
I wanted to prove a point to my bud.
We did several runs of “start with 5 rds in mag/chamber hot, shoot 2 rds on 3 targets, reload/repeat”.
Everyone was shooting 1911’s (most of us are old).
We repeated drill using support hand thumb on SS to drop slide on fresh magazine.
The differences in times ranged from .55 for weak hand thumb on SS to over a full second for overhand or sling shot, depending on skill level as you’d expect.
A half second is a long time when you’re shooting, that’s 2 to 3 rds in the face, depending on distance.
My stance; if the weapon allows it- I’ll use weak hand thumb to drop slide.
When I went through the Jumpmaster Course they had pithy sayings everywhere, one that I took to heart was 'I will be sure, always.'
I think that is a good motto to keep in mind when you are deciding which of the methods discussed you choose to use.
Choose the one that you don't have bobbles with, the one with which you can do repeated max speed runs without failures.
JMO, YMMV.
There was definitely a movement for a time that preached going over the top as some sort of uber efficient gross motor skill thing. That's been falling off for a couple years, what with triggers and magazine releases requiring similar levels of manipulation.
Hit the slide stop if you want, grab over the top if you want. Both are valid. The slide stop is a little faster for most I suspect.
That is how I learned, and with Glocks.
Although not long after discovering the Glock factory extended slide release I started using it as such. Seemed faster and involved less overall movement to me.
For me it depends on the gun and which is the best combination of repeatable and simple.
For the Cheetah I'd been carrying until recently, both methods were a bit on the slow side. (the slide isn't grab-friendly, the slide release must be pressed hard to fight the strong recoil spring) I went with a near-muzzle overhand slide pinch.
For the S&W Shield 2.0 .45 and full size 2.0 .45 I carry now (no, not at the same time) I use the slide release.
I find that I can extend the gun out with both hands on it and be working on placing the next shot while dropping the slide. I can't do that with my hand going over the top of the pistol grabbing the slide.
I recommend using a slide release. But it's up to you.
ramairthree
11-19-18, 00:15
Oh, I forgot to say,
The TICs I have been in we’re all ended with bad guys DAF before I had even emptied a magazine.
At distances probably about the same as your living room or front yard.
In my experience, it is not necessary to be able to change magazines fast, transition to sidearms, or be good at shooting 25 or more meters away.
However, I trained and continue to refresh at those things as they were part of other people’s experiences. Just like I have never needed to go for my off hand knife, but I still keep it there.
I’m still waiting for the overhand vs slingshot fight to break out in this thread.
Everybody knows someone that knows someone that is alive to this day because the bad guy for their Beretta 92FS and did not take the safety off. Everybody knows somebody that knows somebody who died because they left their 92 on safe when they tried to shoot the bad guy and would be alive to this day if they had a 92D or G. And those same guys know somebody who knows someone that knows a guy that died because the bad guy got their 92G and would be alive if they had a 92 FS.
And someone will be along to comment that when I said on mag changes I plan to SS but it usually auto forwards it means I am a complete and total idiot for not changing mags soft enough to not autoforward or that I am insane for not fixing my malfunctioning gun.
We can’t all shoot like A God while rolling with a 93R in a chest Serpa.
Maybe my thought process is a bit skewed on this topic, but outside of of range/competition is this really a determining factor in survive ability? Honest question.
if I am ever unfortunate enough to have to actually use my carry gun to solve a problem and I actually shoot to lock back (malfunctions are a different topic) and have to fix an empty gun via reload, it would seem to me that I would have other "issues" that would need to be addressed in terms of training/lifestyle choices that would be of greater value than shaving half a second off my reload times. Provided I came out on the other side to be able to do so.
For what is worth, I use the overhand myself. It is what I was formally taught 20+ years ago and I have stuck with it since. It may not be right or in vogue, but it works for me across a broader spectrum.
Oh, I forgot to say.....
We can’t all shoot like A God while rolling with a 93R in a chest Serpa.
Quoted for truth. Where is the Operator known as Stengun when we really need him?
ViniVidivici
11-19-18, 15:04
6 on one half dozen on the other. I tend to go with "overhand", as I run Glocks and their slide release levers are a bit "smallish", as are those of some other guns.
No, I won't run extended slide release levers on "working guns", don't want 'em sticking out and being inadvertently activated by my ham-hands.
I've timed myself with both methods, really not much time difference, for me. My guess is it's that way with most folks.
and also relayed a story about how a team mate of his accidentally got a bit of glove into the ejection port
I've done this with my issued M9 and flight gloves. Locked the pistol right up. No idea how it happened. Luckily, I was on a range on a nice sunny day and not in some shithole. It still made me change glove types and got me using the slide release with my support thumb. It's a very deliberate action but no more deliberate than focusing on proper sight picture during a trigger pull.
Shooting is fun.
Training is gratifying.
Racing the clock is satisfying.
Achieving skill is empowering.
Fighting goes far beyond split and par times and choice of finishing your speed reload. Fast reload times are nice but most likely way down the list of needs when in a lethal confrontation. I would echo others that many here could use FoF, FATs, room clearing, malfunctions, and a really honest appraisal of your actual danger vectors before any minor increased shooting skills are pursued.
I like measuring times so I can be sure of a skillset and make fun of friends and colleagues, but I also know lots of men and women far slower than me but have succeeded in way more violent confrontations than me and continue to do so daily.
Mindset is everything.
Dennis.
Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
SeriousStudent
11-19-18, 18:57
Quoted for truth. Where is the Operator known as Stengun when we really need him?
Off somewhere practicing his Photoshop skills, I would imagine.
Off somewhere practicing his Photoshop skills, I would imagine.
Stengun, some say he's banned, some say he never will be.
Stengun, some say he's banned, some say he never will be.
Jeremiah Johnson...Awesome movie. Redford's best.
At one point I spent somewhere between ten to fifteen thousand rounds training to always release the slide with my hand rather than using the slide catch. I fumbled it not infrequently. As soon as I started using the slide stop the fumbles went away and my reloads became much more efficient and reliable. I won't be going back.
SeriousStudent
11-20-18, 00:12
Stengun, some say he's banned, some say he never will be.
Trust me, he'll always be banned.
I tested this some time ago, 10 runs each method on two different days with hits in the A zone at 7 yards. Ascending times were .15-.20 from release with support hand, strong hand and thumb/point finger of support hand. I don't run extended slide stops/releases since they usually cause more problems for me than helping. The way I manipulate the magazine and my support hand, after insertion my point finger hits the touch point under the trigger guard about the same time my thumb hits the release as I'm moving the gun back on target completing the grip and tracking the sight, taking the slack up and busting it once I see what I need to.
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