View Full Version : so, will anyone admit they used "chi-com" AR parts on their AR?
http://ebaybanned.com/index.php?cPath=68_69
some of the "airsoft" are properly licensed b y the manufactures, like magpul, most are pure bootleg, but that aside....
ive bought a tac-latch for 6$, and i was more then happy with the quality, i have friends who have bought the fake-cogs and flip up sites for 20$, they seem happy with the "range" quality of the parts.
anyone buy the fake free float tubes?
what have you thought of the parts you have seen or bought?
As always, it depends on what you're going to do with it. Some will never know the difference. In fact, putting chicom pot metal on bottomfeeders seems strangely appropriate. :D
For others, it's completely unsat. Further, some are morally opposed to supporting knock-offs/counterfeits/imitations.
My money is too valuable to spend more than once.
CTBuilder1
11-01-08, 21:44
You have to ask yourself, are you buying these parts to look cool or to perform a real function? I understand many people get lost in the world of "tacticool" parts simply to look the part. Don't put fake/chicom junk/airsoft parts on a real firearm. Buy quality products and you will only have to buy them once.
DAMN. They even steal their logo and slogans!!
IroquoisSnakePlissken
11-01-08, 23:07
Skintop:
"My money is too valuable to spend more than once."
I'm making this my sig.
A bitesized, yet fully gratifying, nugget of wisdom.
Karl in NY
11-01-08, 23:25
I am tempted to do http://www.bullszeye.net/utg-mnt952.html http://us.st12.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/yhst-29624611304224_2026_19807481
For my application, it makes little sense to spend 4x the price for a BUIS that will probably never even be used once in my lifetime on this particular rifle of mine...
Yes, Troy BUISs are simply wonderful...but the chicom sights should work as well for that one time if/when the SHTF. How badly can emergency iron sights be screwed-up? Maybe there is melamine added to boost the protein content, but I don't expect either the cat or dog to be eating these sights on a regular basis.
That said, however, I have never even fondled this particular chicom BUIS...I am aware of the brand's airsoft heritage, BTW.
My varmint rifle will either get the $25 BUIS rear sight instead of the $100+ legitimate one, or will just go without a rear BUIS entirely.
BTW, CDNN has had some recent killer-deals on these "UTG" branded sights...
Not knowingly. I feel it is immoral to send any of my money to support such a tyrannical regime. Also, I don't like buying crap. I have bought cheap tools and cleaning supplies at gun shows that COULD have been chicom, but I have never knowingly done it.
eternal24k
11-02-08, 00:19
I accidentally bought a fake KAC trigger guard on GB (I missed the "like" in the item description) even with it being such a tiny non-operating part, i still will most likely not use it, the quality is evident and i cannot imagine using a more crucial part.
Chicom, airsoft etc stuff just performs like the crap that they are. If a BUIS fails to flip up or worse, falls off what bargain do you have when the chips are down. I have seen many new guys buy a cheapie AR and outfit it with that cheap stuff who then can't figure out why there AR malfunctions constantly and nothing works after a few rounds. For example Fakepoint lenses poping out , tac latches ripping off, stocks cracking with little use. sight adjustments going to there limit with little or no movement of the sight itself. I can go on and on but I'll offer this up: save your dough and buy good gear that will last. You can get used stuff on EE forums here or look for sales at Midway and Brownells etc. Quality equipment will make your shooting/range time/ training go so much better.
If you are willing to use crappy parts on your weapon, that tells me that you do not understand what the 2nd Amendment is about. It isn't about target shooting or hunting. It is about self-defense and defense of the country in time of crisis. A weapon is a tool, and your tool should be in the best working condition possible for the time when the need arises.
Additionally, Chinese companies are making money by stealing the intellectual and property rights of U.S citizens and those that buy their crap support that. If you are comfortable with that fact then continue to buy. I want to save money like the next guy. But, I will not buy Chinese knock-off crap and I will not use it on my weapons.
lanceriley
11-02-08, 06:04
if you're going to put an imitation buis, what for? if you're not going to use it, don't buy. If it's for backup.... would it still be a backup when it's cheap stuff?
if you're going to put an imitation buis, what for? if you're not going to use it, don't buy. If it's for backup.... would it still be a backup when it's cheap stuff?
I've taught in state LE carbine courses where people have brought in junk china parts they have bought online. The guys who are bragging about how much they saved are humbled pretty quickly when the rest of the people let them know how stupid they are. I tend to lace my comments with judicious amounts of profanity in these cases.
Better to not have a part on your weapon, than to have a cheap one you can't depend on.
Parabellum9x19mm
11-02-08, 07:43
save the airsoft accessories for toy guns. that's where they belong.
why put sub-standard crap on $1000+ rifle?
a quality $100-125 BUIS is a thousand times better than a piece of crap $100-200 chinese copy of a decent optic
the site you linked is worse than run of the mill airsoft accessories....that stuff is knockoff garbage and it is intended to deceive the consumer. when your airsoft accessories say "Vltor" or "LaRue Tactical" and "Made in USA" instead of "REPLICA" or "Made in China", that is a serious problem. please smack yourself in the head for posting it.
Karl in NY
11-02-08, 09:01
If you are willing to use crappy parts on your weapon, that tells me that you do not understand what the 2nd Amendment is about.
I really hate peer pressure, it usually makes me do the opposite.
So, thank you for your guidance on this decision...
I just ordered http://www.cdnninvestments.com/artaflresine.html from CDNN
I really don't think my family's safety will be compromised by this choice...this AR-15 is just my plinker...there are 17 other more appropriate weapons within my reach if/when the shit hits the fan.
Before I even see this item, I already know the country of origin...
"2nd Amenment"?
So, if I buy something manufactured in China, I'm automatically anti-second-amendment? Get a life.
Erik Eastman
11-02-08, 09:58
I don't really discriminate when it comes to buying quality goods. I usually don't care where it came from if it's the best I can do for the money.
I'll admit, sometimes I'll go the other way, like when i bought my "2nd-tier" Bushmaster, for no other reason than they were made 45min away from me in my home state. I like the "Windham, Maine" rollmark more than the Snake tbh.
But I think that knowingly buying inferior knock-off products from China when the real deal is made in the USA for the simple goal of having the "cool gear" without paying the cost of admission isn't anti-second ammendment, it's anti-American.
Guess I probably need a life too. Oh well.
Karl,
You obviously misunderstood my whole point so let be more clear. All weapons should be considered SHTF weapons because you have no control as to when the shit will hit the fan. Especially any type of AR weapon. So if you only have it as a plinker then IMO you don't understand what that 2nd Amendment is about. I think I made that part clear in my post. All of my rifles and carbines are exactly what they are and none of them have inferior crap on them. Anyone of them can be called upon to do its' job. The only "plinker" I have per se is a Ruger 10/22.
I have a life and it is doing rather well. Thanks.
I really hate peer pressure, it usually makes me do the opposite.
So, thank you for your guidance on this decision...
I just ordered http://www.cdnninvestments.com/artaflresine.html from CDNN
I really don't think my family's safety will be compromised by this choice...this AR-15 is just my plinker...there are 17 other more appropriate weapons within my reach if/when the shit hits the fan.
Before I even see this item, I already know the country of origin...
"2nd Amenment"?
So, if I buy something manufactured in China, I'm automatically anti-second-amendment? Get a life.
I think your average uneducated recreational shooter will not notice the difference because they don't know any better. They do not have enough experience with the real stuff see the differences.
I would recommend that anyone who is interested enough in the M4 to join this forum should take a class or two. If you can't afford a class right now, try to learn a few of the flat range drills and practice them at your local range. Remember, perfect practice makes perfect. Maybe have a friend critique you. In a class you will spend all day on the range and fire about 1000 or more rounds in about 5 days. Try going through at least one basic load with each sighting system you plan to use - to include your BUIS. If you can't properly shoot iron sight STOP! You can move on to an optic once you have learned your iron sights.
In short order, if you are doing it right any equipment deficiencies will be readily apparent.
Now, I still am waiting with baited breath for low cost quality Chinese parts to dominate the US market in the way that low cost Chinese goods have dominated elsewhere.
With any luck we can actually move ALL manufacturing overseas. Mexican labor can take all of the domestic manual labor jobs. This should leave 1/3 of all Americans on welfare, 1/3 with well paid govt jobs, and 1/3 working at WalMart. Got to love that 'free trade'!
IroquoisSnakePlissken
11-02-08, 10:46
IraqGunz:
Your posts in this thread show you to be a very honourable dude. I can say that you have most certainly earned my respect, in spades.
Your perspective on the 2nd is refreshing, and frankly, romantically glorious. I ****in' love it.
Kudos, bro.
To the O.P.: Don't say nobody here warned you. Best of luck, doing one's part to ensure the further degradation of the U.S. Economy, and supporting our enemies for the sole purpose of saving a buck. Firearms, and the related accessories are one of the few arenas left where we can actively, and easily, still buy American made products. In any other industry, you'd be hard pressed to walk into an establishment and find so much as one American made product. In the firearms realm, pistols, powders, primers, PMAGs, and Picatinnies, are still availble from the good ole' US of A.
Very few here will pander or peddle you bullshit, or feed into fantasy.
To everyone else: M4 Carbine.net, and the advice I've found here has helped me tremendously grow as both a shooter, but as a person. This forum is made up of some very fine individuals.
I honestly, and sincerely appreciate all the advice I've gained from perusing here.
ISP,
Thank you. I just call it like I see it. And this made in China story reminds me of one from several years back that I will share.
I worked as a bail bondsman in the Northwest for almost four years in the mid-late 90's. One of the guys that was assigned to me as a trainee showed up and it was up to me to do the "vetting" on him. One of the first things I did was to examine his kit. He was using a pair of Chinese POS handcuffs I believe were made by a company called HWC. I promptly advised him that he should not be using crap like that as it is a safety issue and that he should get some S&W's, Hiatts or Peerless cuffs. He said he couldn't afford and would just have to make do. The Chinese POS's were about $19.99 and the others were anywhere from $29.00-35.00 or so.
One night while we were out working one of his cases we located the person in question and I had him make the actual hook up to see how he would handle the situation. Everything was good. We got over to the jail and he surrendered the prisoner to the custody of the jail. About 15 minutes goes by and we are still waiting for the C.O to bring out his cuffs. I am going WTF as it usually doesn't take this long. The C.O comes out and asks for his key as his wouldn't work right. He gives him the key and while the C.O is trying to remove them the key breaks off in the lock. At this point the Sgt. comes over and is like WTF? So he retrieves a pair of cutters and they cut the cuffs off.
He is totally pissed and is looking at me like he can't believe that they snipped his cuffs off. We get out to the car and I tell him "now you know why I warned you about those pieces of shit." It's going to cost you at least $29.00 for a set of S&W's, add that to what you paid for those and you are now behind the power curve.
Moral of the story is if you buy shit and plan on using it for real life adventures you are going to get shitty results and in the end you will spend more than what it would have cost to do it right the first time.
Iraqgunz,
Sounds like he learned his lesson, some people seem incapable of that.
On a side note, I can't believe you would leave the rain of the PNW for AZ..... :D
Stay safe.
As always, it depends on what you're going to do with it. Some will never know the difference. In fact, putting chicom pot metal on bottomfeeders seems strangely appropriate. :D
For others, it's completely unsat. Further, some are morally opposed to supporting knock-offs/counterfeits/imitations.
My money is too valuable to spend more than once.
Some users might never know the difference, but generally speaking these sorts of things are either fubared from the start or destined to break or crap out sometime later.
Why waste the money to get them in the first place, when it could be spent on something of high quality that you can actually afford. How about, say, a mil-spec receiver extension, chrome lined barrel, or having more than 2 magazines.
A lot of this crap goes onto weapons that are marginal in the first place, when they could have put all that money into a decent rifle. This is a hallmark of fools - they don't keep track of what they have spent, and they don't understand opportunity costs.
Worse yet, is when people who really cannot afford the real stuff buy crap like this. When they can't afford an Aimpoint - what else can they not afford? How many guys out there are sporting knock-offs to look cool at the range who could have better spent the money on new shoes for their kids or new tires for their wife's car?
I see people who make 4x as much as I do complain that they "can't afford all that snob gear". If they piss away their money like that in everything they do, well, I'm not surprised.
Yes, Troy BUISs are simply wonderful...but the chicom sights should work as well for that one time if/when the SHTF. How badly can emergency iron sights be screwed-up?
I've seen some of the cheaper US-made BUIS's fail simply when moving them between rifles. Cheap chinese crap is cheap chinese crap, and you're better off waiting another couple months to at least get a $50 Matech off the TOS Equiment Exchange rather than wasting the money now. Unless, of course, you're using it to back up a crap optic, as well, in which case the money should have gone to good irons in the first place.
If you're a family man and you really cannot afford another $20, perhaps you should have gotten an SKS.
most people have no problem buying UTG parts for there guns... many a gun site sells these, and they are quite well made... did you know they are also Chinese airsoft company?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTG
are they good enough to depend on in combat in some 3rd world country?
maybe... maybe not..
but is it good enough to for the range.... so far, the reports ive scene is yes....
IroquoisSnakePlissken
11-02-08, 12:08
This thread is awash in wisdom.
I'm sticking to the point that one would be better served by a totally stock rifle, than to throw worthless P.O.S. bolt-on goodies onto said rifle.
I'm betting the O.P. already has a fully assembled rifle, rather than a build, so leave it at that, or get some real accessories.
Here's my other question:
Why even own an Assault Rifle in the first place, if it isn't intended as for SHTF/Self-Defense/Tyranny Response Team/LEO/Military/Bail Enforcement purposes?
Why, in God's Holiest Name, would you spend close to a grand on a "plinking" range gun, then argue that you have no intention of using it for self-defense, then further assert that you don't want to spend "big bucks" on Aimpoint, Troy, Trijicon, etc. If you wanted a plinker in the first place, why didn't you buy a GSG-5, or a 10/22?!?!?!
It's cognitive dissonance at its finest:
I don't want to spend money on real add-ons, but I spent $800-$1000 on a "range toy".
WHAT THE ****, OVER?
If you've got the cash to spend on a $1,000 range toy, you shouldn't be griping about the expensive add-ons, when a perfectly range-o-riffic 10/22 is staring you in the face for $200 at your local sporting goods store.
If I had a grand to drop on a toy, I wouldn't bitch about spending extra on other goodies for it.
my next gun is the ACR, as for my 1000 gun, i got into this before the 1st ban, everything you see in this pic, i got for a grand total of 800$
http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/4316/guns036largepy0.jpg
this is my currant build that cost me 100$ for the lower and 30 for the parts
http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/1944/guns116mediumzq4.th.jpg (http://img232.imageshack.us/my.php?image=guns116mediumzq4.jpg)
this is me, Bob Brown from The Unit ;)
http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/2682/varmitingmediumqn5.th.jpg (http://img221.imageshack.us/my.php?image=varmitingmediumqn5.jpg)
IroquoisSnakePlissken
11-02-08, 12:33
Ring: The OD Green blaster is looking sexy as hell.
Just more food for thought, what kind of rifle are you running in the first place?
Check the forums for KISS rifles. You would be better off with a good basic rifle and a few extras than just building a rifle based on it's CDI looks. Remember, the only reason the pros put this stuff on their guns in the first place is to fulfill a particular need. Are you are putting components on your gun simply because they look like things the pros use?
It is sort of like putting a big exhaust pipe and decal kit on your Honda.
Ring: The OD Green blaster is looking sexy as hell.
thx, its KG Moly GunKote
Just more food for thought, what kind of rifle are you running in the first place?
Check the forums for KISS rifles. You would be better off with a good basic rifle and a few extras than just building a rifle based on it's CDI looks. Remember, the only reason the pros put this stuff on their guns in the first place is to fulfill a particular need. Are you are putting components on your gun simply because they look like things the pros use?
It is sort of like putting a big exhaust pipe and decal kit on your Honda.
right now, im not looking to invest any more in my AR's, im selling my preban lower with 16" to a friend behind the lines in NY ware prebans are still worth some cash.
that cash is going to the ACR that ill SBR..
this will leave me with my 20" and 24" AR for fun and varmiting
Parabellum9x19mm
11-02-08, 12:51
most people have no problem buying UTG parts for there guns... many a gun site sells these, and they are quite well made... did you know they are also Chinese airsoft company?
i have a UTG soft case and rail covers. that's it. i have a hard time dropping $50 on rail covers for one rifle, or $150 for one soft case.
but i'd never use UTG parts on any of my guns, other than the most ancillary of accessories. anything other than that, i'd rather buy quality.
YMMV. use what works for you. but chicom stuff doesn't fly with me.
personally i'd rather give my money to LMT, DD, Vltor or LaRue or any of the other American manufacturers of high quality parts, rather than give my money to a chinese company, who's knocking off their design while implementing substandard procedures with substandard materials.
its really annoying when they do everything they can to copy a quality design, and a large percentage of consumers don't know better or couldn't care less. UTG isn't bad as far as intellectual dishonesty is concerned...other than their iron sights which are trying to look like Midwest Industries for the flip and LMT for the fixed
that "banned from ebay" catalog is a whole other level. criminal, IMO.
+1 on the UTG soft case. Great for the money.
O.P
It's usually easier to buy quality once. Think about trying to sight in an airsoft or other inferior rear sight. How much money will you have saved if you use 50 rounds chasing your zero around, only to find out that the zero has changed next time out because the metal was too soft, the threads weren't consistant, or square, etc.
i have a UTG soft case and rail covers. that's it. i have a hard time dropping $50 on rail covers for one rifle, or $150 for one soft case.
The three sets of Magpul XTM covers for my carbine were in total about $25 dollars. My rifle bag was $35 and its an Uncle Mikes (although it was probably make in Pakistan or some place like that).
-DM-
IroquoisSnakePlissken
11-07-08, 17:36
$150 for a soft bag!? WTF!?
I could get a Pelican for that.
Failure2Stop
11-08-08, 06:38
Chinese knock-off parts on quality guns?
Are you kidding?
1- China is an enemy- make no mistake about it.
2- US manufacturers produce a better product with actual customer service and aid the US economy.
Why is this even a discussion?
And what does the planned purchase of an ACR have to do with crap parts on a current rifle?
I would rather have 1 gun that I know will go to hell and back than three that are a random assortment of questionable quality accessories.
I have to admit to putting my $29 fACOG from my airsoft M4 on my Bushmaster M4gery one day to take my step-son(13) to the range.
He had been playing Battlefield on the Xbox360 all morning and was telling his friends how good he was.
I told him to turn that s--t off and we'll see how he handles the real deal.
I slapped that fACOG on there as it was the closest to the games sight.
He acually shot real well at 25 and 50 yards
It worked for about 50 rounds till it broke the red-dot.
Still looks cool on the airsoft, though.
http://img352.imageshack.us/img352/8264/dscn5632hd7.jpg
If I had to carry this rifle in harms way, I could easily justify the expense of the real optic(2x cost of rifle). But for normal RKBA duty, the iron sights are my choice since if I have to use a scope to shoot you, I probably won't be "justified" in doing so.
Once again if you are serious about defense and the proper use of your arms you will not put a piece of shit Chinese knock off scope or other part(s) on your weapon. Here we see an example of a scope that broke after 50 rds.
You scope analogy also doesn't hold water because I can hit you with iron sights out to 450-500 meters. Another 100 or so with an ACOG isn't going to make it more or less justified.
I'll admit that I have tried a knockoff Aimpoint and ACOG clone. While they worked OK for the occasional range trip, I just couldn't bring myself to trust them for a serious social situation. I sold all of the China stuff and have decided that it's better to have a KISS carbine or rifle with OEM irons until I can afford to have the real stuff made here.
You scope analogy also doesn't hold water because I can hit you with iron sights out to 450-500 meters. Another 100 or so with an ACOG isn't going to make it more or less justified.
What I was getting at was the fact that, at least here in the states for now, if you use a rifle for self defense, and shoot someone at a range that iron sights are less than ideal, you will probably find yourself being prosecuted.
lanceriley
11-08-08, 19:03
if you fear prosecution... then your life isn't in danger by that much yet.
What I was getting at was the fact that, at least here in the states for now, if you use a rifle for self defense, and shoot someone at a range that iron sights are less than ideal, you will probably find yourself being prosecuted.
:rolleyes:
I was well aware that you were referring to the states as was I. My point was that you said "if I have to use a scope to shoot you I am probably not justified" could just as easily be applied to a rifle with iron sights as well. There are a variety of factors that would/ could come into play. One of the first things to understand about defensive shootings is the ability to articulate why you did what you did.
You could potentially be camping in an area and some idiot starts shooting at you at xxxx distance. If you had an optic on your weapon and returned fire killing him having a scope would have probably zero impact. You are either in fear of your life and you can articulate your actions or you aren't.
What I was getting at was the fact that, at least here in the states for now, if you use a rifle for self defense, and shoot someone at a range that iron sights are less than ideal, you will probably find yourself being prosecuted.
I don't even like most of the AMERICAN made aftermarket crap out there. :p
Forget about buying Cheap Chinese versions of it.
IroquoisSnakePlissken
11-09-08, 09:47
IraqGunz:
People will always use whatever means neccessary to justify not putting quality gear on their weapons.
I'll honestly admit that I was once that very way, thinking most of the cheaper stuff would be "good enough". Not neccessarily buying Chi-Com trash, but skimping here and there.
I have a buddy that I can't even convince to put a light on any of his blasters. Nothing. Said buddy also referred to me as "crazy" for putting a $500+ optic on my blaster.
Said individual has two magazines for his only rifle and says that's "plenty".
Said individual also believes, though he rarely ever goes shooting, that he can hit a 1' wide target at 200 yards with a handgun.
Let people live in fantasy-land, where they ride Unicorns and their Romanian AKs are "infinitely superior" to your M4-derived carbines, and where they can out-shoot Todd Jarrett with an out-of-the-box $250 pistol.
Folks will always justify being thrifty, because they can't past the concept of quality having a price tag.
It's a lack of experience that leads to the conclusion that bargain-blowout goodies are "as good or better" than real hardware.
ISP,
I am not totally shocked. There are guys that work with me that have gone to the range and zeroed their weapons and then don't clean them for months afterward if at all. Another guy zeroed in his EOtech and didn't even bother to worry about his iron sights. Even though we were having EOTech issues and I advised everybody about them.
Said friend of yours will also be the one who cries help me when the SHTF and he has no mags or ammo left. The good part is you will be able to pick up his weapon after he goes down and it to your collection.
If I can't afford to buy a quality item(s) for my firearms then I wait until the point that I can and get it. I don't buy some inferior shit in the meantime to hold me over.
IraqGunz:
People will always use whatever means neccessary to justify not putting quality gear on their weapons.
I'll honestly admit that I was once that very way, thinking most of the cheaper stuff would be "good enough". Not neccessarily buying Chi-Com trash, but skimping here and there.
I have a buddy that I can't even convince to put a light on any of his blasters. Nothing. Said buddy also referred to me as "crazy" for putting a $500+ optic on my blaster.
Said individual has two magazines for his only rifle and says that's "plenty".
Said individual also believes, though he rarely ever goes shooting, that he can hit a 1' wide target at 200 yards with a handgun.
Let people live in fantasy-land, where they ride Unicorns and their Romanian AKs are "infinitely superior" to your M4-derived carbines, and where they can out-shoot Todd Jarrett with an out-of-the-box $250 pistol.
Folks will always justify being thrifty, because they can't past the concept of quality having a price tag.
It's a lack of experience that leads to the conclusion that bargain-blowout goodies are "as good or better" than real hardware.
IroquoisSnakePlissken
11-09-08, 11:11
"If I can't afford to buy a quality item(s) for my firearms then I wait until the point that I can and get it. I don't buy some inferior shit in the meantime to hold me over."
Pay attention to that statement, folks.
You are better served with your iron sights that a cheap optic.
You are better served with NO flashlight, than a light that will fail the instant you fire a shot.
I think everyone wants the tricks and treats the studs are rolling out with, but they don't want to pay the price of admission.
There's nothing "tactical" about setting oneself up for failure out of the gate.
Mo_Zam_Beek
11-09-08, 11:48
Why, in God's Holiest Name, would you spend close to a grand on a "plinking" range gun, then argue that you have no intention of using it for self-defense, then further assert that you don't want to spend "big bucks" on Aimpoint, Troy, Trijicon, etc. If you wanted a plinker in the first place, why didn't you buy a GSG-5, or a 10/22?!?!?!
He is totally pissed and is looking at me like he can't believe that they snipped his cuffs off. We get out to the car and I tell him "now you know why I warned you about those pieces of shit." It's going to cost you at least $29.00 for a set of S&W's, add that to what you paid for those and you are now behind the power curve.
Moral of the story is if you buy shit and plan on using it for real life adventures you are going to get shitty results and in the end you will spend more than what it would have cost to do it right the first time
These two posts either resonate the big picture of life or they don't.
If the cuff story doesn't - congratulations and go buy a lotto ticket - you either have outstanding luck or haven't gotten off the couch much.
The first doesn't resonate with most of America - it is how we got B.H. Obama
I only ever bought one Chi-Com accessory.
It was a 20 rd. fixed box for my Norinco SKS...[rifle bought new when you could buy them for $69...never missed a lick]
I had to modify both the magazine and releive the stock in the mag area to get it to work.
Ha...I had to modify Chi-Com crap to get it to work on a Chi-Com weapon.
Now that....thats quality.
Buy quality stuff. It always pays....always.
All my guns are a "no China" zone. Period. Ever. For any reason. I don't care if the part if gold plated and bulletproof.
Jesus - there is so much crap made in China all over all our houses these days, it's a refreshing breath of Made in the USA air every time I open my gun safe. (There are some Eurpoean pistols and optics in there, but at least not made my Chinese slave labor.)
lanceriley
11-11-08, 09:15
yes... no china in the AR but the nylon gears are still made in china :D
You know, the price difference between US made nylon stuff and Chinese stuff tends to be much lower than the same difference in firearms parts... especially if you hit up places like Tactical Tailor when they have a bunch of stuff on closeout.
lanceriley
11-11-08, 18:28
yes Im aware of it. I myself use the china nylon gear. Just want to point out that it would be unfair to blame china on the parts. let's just all call it low quality parts. after all even 511 tactical gear which is a usa brand is partly made in china.
there are after all people in this forum that are of chinese descent. although they mayb americans by allegiance. it is unnecessary to call it china junk....
China supplies the walmarts of the world.
Karl in NY
11-11-08, 18:46
I am very impressed with the quality of my new 5.11 rifle case, despite country of origin. I have seen similar gear produced in the USA of far lower quality...
I don't China-bash when they produce a superior product. I do China-bash when they poison my kitty with melamine as a protein substitute in cat food. In that case, **** them, execute the perps.
The situation is not black and white, and US companies like 5.11 who outsource labor to China, yet maintain high standards are difficult for me to fault.
I realize I'm probably in the minority here, and will need to duck...
China supplies the walmarts of the world.Did you intend that to sound like a good thing?
lanceriley
11-11-08, 22:02
dogface,
No I meant it to sound bad. Shops who want to sell very cheap employ China to produce the goods with a price limit. For example. Tires. In my country we use up a lot of China Tires. in fact competition is so tough since shops that sell tires are side by side. What these importers do is they tell china to produce a Tire of a specific size with this price. so how do you do that? Remove material. A 10w truck used tire weighs around 55kgs. A brand new China tire weighs 50kg. just to be able to stay in business they were forced to produce a substandard quality.
A few years ago before China emerged in power as a factory producing goods, we were producing shoes for export to America and Europe. I will not print the brand name. believe me it's a popular brand name up till now. They asked us to make molds for the bottom (soles) of the shoes. These things are made of Aluminum so it's quite expensive. They promised as hundreds thousands of orders. bottom line they ordered only 50t pairs. thier price was really cheap. something like FOB 2$. I know those pairs had to at least cost 70$ at that time. so in the end. I ended up having molds for shoes I coudn't produce for others since it was a brand name. If it was a China factory. They'll produce that same brand shoes behind the American company's back resulting in so called Fakes.
No I am not condoning what they do. But It should be the responsibility of the Buying party to assure quality since they are importing it to the public. And set a price that is also profitable to the Producing Party.
As for the Melamine. I hate them for doing that. Innocent infants getting hurt.
Yes 5.11. I appreciate them for maintaining thier standard inspite of being outsourced. this is the way business should have been run instead of just looking at profits without quality standards. There are factories in China that still produce specific standards. but it comes with a price and most distributors look at profit before standards.
sorry for the rant. I just wanted to bring it up for everyone to know. that it's not all the producer's fault. Knowing a product is substandard. The Distributor should discontinue it thereby killing the substandard factory.
peace to you all
There are some fundamental cultural differences going on... who is of what descent and where is irrelevant.
I recall the guys who were busted selling "pulled pork" sandwiches that were cardboard picked off the street, soaked in lye, shredded, and mixed with a little real pork for flavor. They were all shame once they were caught... but they still DID that shit for quite a while with, apparently, not a care in the world. You simply cannot DO things like that, and then say you're sorry when you're caught. Bullshit, if you were that sorry, you wouldn't have done it in the first place.
No doubt the same story for the jokers who decided to sell barrels full of glycol as glycerine, thus essentially creating toothpaste with antifreeze in it. Or the jackasses selling watered down "milk" and baby formula laced with toxic chemicals to help them spoof tests for protein content. The problem is systemic.
Yes, vendors who buy crappy products are not good vendors... but that does not absolve the manufacturer who knows damn well they're putting out crap.
Two comments. I will list them in separate posts since they are totally unrelated.
I don't sell Chinese parts for guns. Period. Even when they try and get me to. (I posted a recent thread in "General Discussion" about an email with a guy making Surefire-like tactical lights.) I have a couple parts that are made in China that I did not know as they are from a US company where most of the stuff is US or Israel made. Once they sell I am not reordering them (only have a couple pieces).
I also try to avoid made in China stuff, gun or not, if I can. But it is hard. Even my laptops are made in China I believe, though they are "Designed in California by Apple" as the tab proudly states when you open the box (including the new MacBook I got today as a trade for an upper and other parts by a guy who won it and did not want it!). I did not shop at Wal-Mart for several years at all except in emergencies (like needing a toilet gasket at 2am). I have somewhat abandoned that stance now but still only buy things there as a last resort and mostly grocery items that are not found at the local market I usually go to (usually the other way around in terms of Wal-Mart carrying stuff but in this case it is true -- Wal-Mart actually has some stuff that we had to go to Wild Oats for until it closed in our local area and I found it at Wal-Mart)
And I do sell some made in China non guns parts. The Hoppes Bore Snakes are now made in China. They did not used to be. Once Bushnell bought them they moved it to China. And CED is an American company that produces most of its stuff in China (the best Chrony the Millenium M2, range bags, Dillon scales and Dillon electronic muffs, etc). At least in these cases it is just outsourced labor from American companies. I don't even like that but...
Chad
I find it interesting that people don't like to buy Chinese parts because that supports a totalitarian state. What about people buying REAL Aimpoints from Gray Market dealers who don't abide by the rules Aimpoint sets and undercut everybody who follows the rules? Is that much better?
I recently ran an Aimpoint special buy for M4C members. The pricing was set quite low for the short period it ran and I only do it once per year (though this year I did not get the other forum I wanted to run it in going in time so may run it again in a different unnamed [not TOS] forum). I basically took my dealer cost (at the High Volume dealer price, not normal dealer price), added in about 7-8% for my "profit", which also covered shipping costs from Aimpoint to me. (7-8% is not a lot and you cannot survive selling at that margin unless you are selling commodity items in huge volume). I then added in 10$ for shipping since all prices were delivered. And then added in 2.5% to cover average credit card fees that I would have to pay (anywhere from 2% to 4% depending on what kind of card it is). Prices were quite low. However, I had people point out that they knew of places to buy Comp M4 and Comp M4s models for $40 less than I had in the buy. (It was not made clear if that was "shipped" or not so the actual difference could have been only $20-$30 but still). The dealers selling at that price were not Aimpoint authorized, were breaking dealer rules Aimpoint sets, and were selling Gray Market stuff they were buying from other dealers who were overbuying to get volume credit or whatever (also against the rules).
How moral is it to support that sort of dealer? To me it is the same as buying Chinese crap or knockoffs. You support the dealers who play by the rules or you support the ones that don't care and will do anything to make a buck.
Same goes for people who support Botach. They do everything they can in the book to appear to follow the rules but in reality they aren't.
lanceriley
11-12-08, 08:03
you're absolutely right.
As the saying goes... It takes 2 to Tango.
The reason manufacturers produce shitty products is because dealers buy them who in term are willing to sell them to users knowing they are shitty products.
If we want this stopped. Then as buyers we don't buy the shitty products from the dealers. If the dealers can't make money out of it (that's what they're interested) then they don't buy it from the manufacturers. and since dealers aren't buying from the manufacturers they don't produce it (again no profit for them = no production)
weather you like it or not. business is business. If somebody wants to buy $hit. They'll sell $hit. It may not be all American. consider this. The globe is full of people and most of them don't care about thier values or mine. They're just interested in amassing wealth. No we can't tell them what to do. Otherwise we can just make a call to Saddam / Osama and tell them to stop what they're doing.
There are some fundamental cultural differences going on... who is of what descent and where is irrelevant.
I recall the guys who were busted selling "pulled pork" sandwiches that were cardboard picked off the street, soaked in lye, shredded, and mixed with a little real pork for flavor. They were all shame once they were caught... but they still DID that shit for quite a while with, apparently, not a care in the world. You simply cannot DO things like that, and then say you're sorry when you're caught. Bullshit, if you were that sorry, you wouldn't have done it in the first place.
No doubt the same story for the jokers who decided to sell barrels full of glycol as glycerine, thus essentially creating toothpaste with antifreeze in it. Or the jackasses selling watered down "milk" and baby formula laced with toxic chemicals to help them spoof tests for protein content. The problem is systemic.
Yes, vendors who buy crappy products are not good vendors... but that does not absolve the manufacturer who knows damn well they're putting out crap.
Better to not have a part on your weapon, than to have a cheap one you can't depend on.
Finely stated! :cool:
Only a Crane knockoff butstock. Of course replaced the hardware with US made stuff and eventually an LMT buttpad. There was a huge thread on another board about their durability.
Belive it or not, I am part asian and part american, and I can honestly say I will only buy high end equipment for my weapons, why? because my family is more important to me then anything in this world to me and the last thing I need is a part failing when SHTF, I'm not chinese, but I will not put anything junk on my weapons, myself I prefer equipment from top reputable companies, in all honestly, I prefer American made only. I'm not trying to offend anyone or disrespect anyone but thats my preference, I work hard for my money and to me my family deserves the best, and if that means putting the best money can buy on my rifles to protect them and my home, then it shall be done with no questions or second thoughts and especially no regrets. Life is too short and I cannot imagine my life without my family. I say this to anyone whos thinking about buying fake parts to save a buck, think about yourself or your family are they or you worth more then that buck to you, if so then give them the best, I guarentee it you won't be disappointed.
AirmanAtwood
12-21-08, 19:29
I understand that some things you add to a rifle that are "chi-com" could end up screwing you in the ass when SHTF. But what about drop in railed handguards?
From what i understand they're made of decent aluminum, and if you were only mounting a VFG how could they possibly fail? Im not planning on buying one, but im just curious as to what could happen to a handguard to render it useless? And i dont mean the knock off's of larue and DD i feel that thats just wrong for using the name like that. But some no name, no logo handguards.
I've sen a bunch of Chinese junk on rifles, but never on mine
Mr.Goodtimes
12-21-08, 20:28
this has turned into a shit storm of epic proportions lol... i would never buy any chi com crap... much less hang it on my rifle. Its sickening. I want my rifle to be the best, MADE IN THE USA shtf tool, if and when i need it. When i pick that rifle up, i dont wanna be thinkin, dang, is my vfg gonna fall off? will my eotark light up? the rifle i got is built out of the best most well engineered made in the usa parts. i know that when i pick that gun up, charge it and pull the trigger, its gonna go bang, and ittl shoot true, no doubt. and i supported the US economy. god bless America! buying chinese is unamerican.
NOPE, I'll spend my money on the real deal and give it to the AMERICAN companies that support our sport.
Other than firearm related things, the only other thing I can remember buying recently that was made in America was a pizzele maker I bought as a Christmas present.
I am tempted to do http://www.bullszeye.net/utg-mnt952.html http://us.st12.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/yhst-29624611304224_2026_19807481
For my application, it makes little sense to spend 4x the price for a BUIS that will probably never even be used once in my lifetime on this particular rifle of mine...
Yes, Troy BUISs are simply wonderful...but the chicom sights should work as well for that one time if/when the SHTF. How badly can emergency iron sights be screwed-up? Maybe there is melamine added to boost the protein content, but I don't expect either the cat or dog to be eating these sights on a regular basis.
That said, however, I have never even fondled this particular chicom BUIS...I am aware of the brand's airsoft heritage, BTW.
My varmint rifle will either get the $25 BUIS rear sight instead of the $100+ legitimate one, or will just go without a rear BUIS entirely.
BTW, CDNN has had some recent killer-deals on these "UTG" branded sights...
This is one of my 2 chinese mistakes. Even with loctite, the UTG fixed BUIS I had repeatedly fell off the rail under fire. I think I gave it away to someone. My other purchase was a rubber cover for an Aimpoint. I only picked it up because Aimpoint doesn't make OD scope covers, and I wanted one for my OD AR. Needless to say, after taking it off and on a couple of my aimpoints, the rubber tore, because it wasn't as flexible as the actual aimpoint covers. Next time I'll just paint the damn scope.
You scope analogy also doesn't hold water because I can hit you with iron sights out to 450-500 meters. Another 100 or so with an ACOG isn't going to make it more or less justified.
effin' hilarious!
I've broken Chicom crap off of airsoft guns. I've managed to make optics lose zero mounted on plastic airsoft guns (not sure how the guns survived to begin with)
I've done it. I'll completely admit it - if I'm not sure I like style, mount height, or a type of accessory, I'll get a crappy airsoft one. I end up buying an actual one, and relegating the crappy thing to an airsoft gun, or kicking it back on eBay - but only in limited cases.
If it's a part I'm willing to buy 1.5 times, then I'll do the above. I did that for the PRS - tried it, decided that I didn't like it. I now have three UBRs. Same for the MIAD - although I got the actual MagPul one, two for airsoft, 4 for rifles.
Most of it is so bad, it won't even work on an airsoft gun, and I see that a lot. There are a few things that actually are quality items, or some peaches in lots, but the Chinese business model is why the USA still leads despite the fact that they can easily copy, they're STILL playing catchup.
I don't use chicom parts on my rifle, due to the mentioned quality issues. That being said there still are some ways to have a decent gun if you can't afford it or want to try stuff out. I will say right now however, if youy ever plan to use the gun for serious use, you would be better off just spending the money an getting good stuff. Now here's some good ways to add stuff to your gun without spending much or using chicom junk. For example, magpul has the moe line which gives you good accesories for not a lot of money(and when those handguards come out people will have a much better way to add accessories than bolting rails onto regular handguards). If the mbus come out soon then people should also have a decent set of back up sights for not much more money than the utg stuff.
If you need a weaponlight there's still the surefire g2 for a little over $30 that will work fine. Mount that in an elzetta mount of something like midwest industries fsb mount with a scope ring.
As for optics, if you look around, you can still get good deals on aimpoints. Take for example the live.com ebay promotion. You can get in on a group buy like the one eguns had recently. You can also just sit around and wait for some place to have a clearance on aimpoints. That's how I got a couple aimpoint 9000sc's (just a longer c3). Mount that in some burris xtr rings and you have a decent scope mount for not a whole lot. After using this setup I wouldn't mind having a short aimpoint(limits BUIS options), but for somone who wants a red dot for range use or hunting, this setup offers reasonable quality (way better than fakepoints) for a price many can afford. Plus if you decide you want to upgrade to a better aimpoint, you still have a decent optic that would be worth sticking on a 22 or something.
I guess my point is that while the market has been flooded with chinese crap there are still good american made products( or swedish in the case of aimpoints) for fairly low prices out there if you look. I've gone this route on building my rifle to some extent since I can't afford the real nice stuff or have troubles justifying it(like I can't really spend $130+ just to mount a flashilight). I know most of the people on this baord know this stuff, but I just wanted to share what I think and hopefully offer some ideas to others who have a lower budget.
I've broken Chicom crap off of airsoft guns. I've managed to make optics lose zero mounted on plastic airsoft guns (not sure how the guns survived to begin with)
I've done it. I'll completely admit it - if I'm not sure I like style, mount height, or a type of accessory, I'll get a crappy airsoft one. I end up buying an actual one, and relegating the crappy thing to an airsoft gun, or kicking it back on eBay - but only in limited cases.
If it's a part I'm willing to buy 1.5 times, then I'll do the above. I did that for the PRS - tried it, decided that I didn't like it. I now have three UBRs. Same for the MIAD - although I got the actual MagPul one, two for airsoft, 4 for rifles.
Most of it is so bad, it won't even work on an airsoft gun, and I see that a lot. There are a few things that actually are quality items, or some peaches in lots, but the Chinese business model is why the USA still leads despite the fact that they can easily copy, they're STILL playing catchup.
I think you missed the entire point of this thread, about not buying this crap in the first place to support these companies.
Most of this stuff is from Taiwan and Hong Kong.. Except the really, really, really cheap stuff in which case it's from mainland China. But then it usually isn't even pot metal, it's just plastic. :p
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