View Full Version : Update to the Green Beret murdered in Mali story
Two Navy SEALs and twi Marine Raiders have been charged with murder, conspiracy, and burglary among other charges. Story here: https://www.military.com/daily-news/2018/11/15/seals-marines-charged-strangling-murder-green-beret-mali.html
donlapalma
11-15-18, 17:10
Maybe I was reading too fast, but what was the motive? Known at this point?
Maybe I was reading too fast, but what was the motive? Known at this point?
It doesn't really say but sounds like a hazing incident gone too far.
Maybe I was reading too fast, but what was the motive? Known at this point?
"retaliation for a perceived offense at a party." according to the article. It also mentions something about hazing, which sounds like it to could be a likely motive. The burglary charge sounds like it's the result of breaking into the Green Beret's room.
When this story first broke, allegedly the SEALs were skimming money off operational funds...but was found out and confronted by this Green Beret.
May he RIP.
For Chrissakes, guys at this level involved with "hazing"? That's something you expect to see with high school football players giving the newbies "pink bellies" or other such bullshit.
Between the MARSOC and DEVGRU guys there were three E-7's and one E-6. Inexcusable behavior from "professional" tip-of-the-spear types if true. They got "dissed" at a party? Seriously? Is this the freaking 'hood?
He had turned them in for skimming an informants fund, and also didn't like them bringing hookers to the house. The final straw was getting invited to a party at the embassy without the rest of the team.
Not indicted was the culture of profiteering and personality that seems to have replaced good order and discipline. I also believe something like this can only happen in a vacuum of good leadership.
IIRC wasn't it about him threatening to inform on them for stealing money from their operational fund? I think they had a pile of money to use for bribes and to pay snitches with that they were pocketing.
Hah, Todd.K typed faster and had more details.
"Not indicted was the culture of profiteering and personality that seems to have replaced good order and discipline. I also believe something like this can only happen in a vacuum of good leadership."
Good point but I would also mention that as demand for operators increased likely standards decreased during GWOT.
Good news is that now we will have women doing it so things will be much better right?:sarcastic:
If they were stealing money, wouldn't that be another charge to the four they released? Can't see them leaving that type of charge out because it would go to show one of the primary motives of the case if indeed stolen money lead to the murder.
This story is just tough to wrap your mind around.
Coal Dragger
11-15-18, 19:02
He had turned them in for skimming an informants fund, and also didn't like them bringing hookers to the house. The final straw was getting invited to a party at the embassy without the rest of the team.
Not indicted was the culture of profiteering and personality that seems to have replaced good order and discipline. I also believe something like this can only happen in a vacuum of good leadership.
I’ll bet some commissioned personnel will be effectively cashiered out over this as well. Seeing as how embarrassing this is to the SEAL and Raider commands, heads are going to roll. Careers, gonna get crushed. Deservedly so.
Some more SEAL ridiculousness: https://taskandpurpose.com/seal-chief-gallagher-isis-execution/?utm_content=buffer34066&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer
just a scout
11-15-18, 19:22
I’ll bet some commissioned personnel will be effectively cashiered out over this as well. Seeing as how embarrassing this is to the SEAL and Raider commands, heads are going to roll. Careers, gonna get crushed. Deservedly so.
Going to be more than just careers crushed. I bet a couple people are going to have fatal accidents at some point.
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BoringGuy45
11-15-18, 20:15
For Chrissakes, guys at this level involved with "hazing"? That's something you expect to see with high school football players giving the newbies "pink bellies" or other such bullshit.
Unfortunately, that mentality often never goes away when it comes to groups that attract overly competitive, hypermasculine, narcissistic, ultra Type-A guys, such as the military, law enforcement, corrections, sports teams, fraternities, martial arts, motorcycle clubs, etc. I'm not saying these groups are made up of nothing but the above described douchebag; just that it attracts a lot of those types. In their minds, might makes right, and nothing else in life beyond that is really important. You learn that as a kid: The biggest, strongest, and meanest kid gets his way, and the only way to beat him is to get stronger and meaner. As such, juvenile behavior is still common among grown men who still subscribe to this philosophy.
When it comes to meatheads like this, I hate to say it, but there's often little to no difference between one of them in an elite military unit, and one of them in an organized crime syndicate. They have the same mentality: They have no respect for anyone outside their group. They have a particular hatred for any rookies, prospects, or wannabes who have the nerve to try and join their group until the newbie proves himself...and that day may never come. Also, while they are a brotherhood, there's always an underlying dog-eat-dog mentality. They're all vying to be the top guy in the group, they have no real compunction about knocking off the current top dogs to get where they want, and their unity is really only shared against outsiders. And the biggest thing of all, ratting is an unforgivable sin in such groups. Ratting is worse than anything you could possibly rat about. Treason is a capital crime.
Again, I'm not saying that all the guys in ST-6 or other elite units are like that. But the ones that are like that are truly pieces of shit.
jerrysimons
11-15-18, 21:15
Some more SEAL ridiculousness: https://taskandpurpose.com/seal-chief-gallagher-isis-execution/?utm_content=buffer34066&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer
the allegations as framed are disgusting but the defense raises some points. Yet with his brothers turning him like this something with this dude went off the rails big time.
Some more SEAL ridiculousness: https://taskandpurpose.com/seal-chief-gallagher-isis-execution/?utm_content=buffer34066&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer
Sadly, the type of behavior that is referenced in the article you posted seems to happen all too often and may even be encouraged by SEAL leadership. Here's another interesting article that came out last January on the "Crimes of SEAL Team Six". https://theintercept.com/2017/01/10/the-crimes-of-seal-team-6/
It doesn't really say but sounds like a hazing incident gone too far.
Since when do SEALs and Marine Raiders haze a GB for chits? Has to be more to it.
Since when do SEALs and Marine Raiders haze a GB for chits? Has to be more to it.
When the story first broke last year it was stated that the Green Beret had discovered that members of the SEAL team and Marine Raiders that were assigned to the joint task force were stealing money from a discretionary fund that was supposed to be used to pay local leaders and informants. They then attempted to buy him off, but when he turned them down they murdered him.
BoringGuy45
11-15-18, 22:00
the allegations as framed are disgusting but the defense raises some points. Yet with his brothers turning him like this something with this dude went off the rails big time.
I find it tough to be sympathetic with a dead ISIS fighter. Yeah, this kid was 15 years old, but that doesn't change the fact that he would likely have done the same thing to the SEAL had the tables been turned. ISIS is an organization that fights ancient-style warfare: No quarter, no mercy, kill all the men, rape the women, enslave the children, and make horrific examples of anyone who defies you. They are the modern equivalent of the Ancient Assyrians or the Mongol Hoards. They don't understand the Western, von Clausewitz model of war as the continuation of politics by other means. What they deserve is to be completely wiped from the face of the Earth. But that said, I understand not returning savagery with the same savagery, and having to be the good guy rather than the lesser of two evils.
Sounds like this guy is the kind of meathead I was describing though: An elitist prick who thinks he is better than everyone, including his fellow SEALs.
When the story first broke last year it was stated that the Green Beret had discovered that members of the SEAL team and Marine Raiders that were assigned to the joint task force were stealing money from a discretionary fund that was supposed to be used to pay local leaders and informants. They then attempted to buy him off, but when he turned them down they murdered him.
I suspect we will never know the full story.
jerrysimons
11-15-18, 22:52
I find it tough to be sympathetic with a dead ISIS fighter. Yeah, this kid was 15 years old, but that doesn't change the fact that he would likely have done the same thing to the SEAL had the tables been turned. ISIS is an organization that fights ancient-style warfare: No quarter, no mercy, kill all the men, rape the women, enslave the children, and make horrific examples of anyone who defies you. They are the modern equivalent of the Ancient Assyrians or the Mongol Hoards. They don't understand the Western, von Clausewitz model of war as the continuation of politics by other means. What they deserve is to be completely wiped from the face of the Earth. But that said, I understand not returning savagery with the same savagery, and having to be the good guy rather than the lesser of two evils.
Sounds like this guy is the kind of meathead I was describing though: An elitist prick who thinks he is better than everyone, including his fellow SEALs.
Yeah I get that the ISIS scourge of evil pervades deep into the culture to the point western categories of innocence and justice are strained. However the allegations state the dude knifed the 15yr old fighter in the neck while teammates were administering aid, then posed glory pics. The allegations come from his peers who were there, allegedly a huge WTF moment.
Coal Dragger
11-15-18, 23:15
Yeah that’s messed up.
If there’s no intent to take prisoners, fine, I get it... ISIS are sub human trash. Just don’t do macabre shit, or stab wounded shit birds to death or cut heads off. Sure as shit don’t take photos like you’re celebrating. Just shoot the dirtbags a few times to make sure they’re neutralized and move on.
If you start treating them for wounds, well that makes them a prisoner, and we don’t torture, mistreat, or kill prisoners. How hard is that to understand?
For Chrissakes, guys at this level involved with "hazing"? That's something you expect to see with high school football players giving the newbies "pink bellies" or other such bullshit.
Between the MARSOC and DEVGRU guys there were three E-7's and one E-6. Inexcusable behavior from "professional" tip-of-the-spear types if true. They got "dissed" at a party? Seriously? Is this the freaking 'hood?
So much this.
He had turned them in for skimming an informants fund, and also didn't like them bringing hookers to the house. The final straw was getting invited to a party at the embassy without the rest of the team.
Not indicted was the culture of profiteering and personality that seems to have replaced good order and discipline. I also believe something like this can only happen in a vacuum of good leadership.
And this. And if true, it's amazing this didn't get fixed in house. I don't care who you are, even if your are the guy who face shot Bin Laden, if you embarrass and shame the SEAL community with your greed and stupidity, you should not be surprised when they come to straighten you out.
If they actually killed a member of US Special Forces over something like this they should be executes and those responsible for putting them in place should have their careers shortened.
And this is the problem with letting hyper competitive personality types take over an organization. When they take over organizations, they dominate the culture and create filters so that other personality types don't get in. If they do get in, they haze them until they leave or comply. They absolutely should never be trusted with power or decision making positions. They're too lacking in empathy, are decisive, but with poor, hasty judgement that they aggressively justify after the fact when wrong, and are too short sighted to be effective leaders. Unfortunately, they reach leaderships positions anyway because they work harder to get there than any other personality type. They simply want power and fame more than anything else in life. It's also why they almost never have close friends and don't often keep spouses unless they are utterly submissive.
Not all hyper competitive types are sociopaths, but all sociopaths are hyper competitive types. They have to be contained and manipulated so their ambition can be used for the benefit of the organization without ever actually letting them reach positions of leadership. They'll eventually leave of their own accord when they aren't getting what they want, or they'll pull dirty tricks to try and overcome the limits. That's when you cut them loose with a big plaque they can put on their "me" wall to brag about and a discrete warning for future employers in their reference.
If I'm not mistaken, LTC. Grossman mentions something about these types in one of his books, On Killing I believe.
If I'm not mistaken, LTC. Grossman mentions something about these types in one of his books, On Killing I believe.
I've been meaning to read that book for years. Now I have another reason.
The "natural born killers" the difference is rules, direction, training and leadership. Other traits, etc come into play.
He had turned them in for skimming an informants fund, and also didn't like them bringing hookers to the house. The final straw was getting invited to a party at the embassy without the rest of the team.
Not indicted was the culture of profiteering and personality that seems to have replaced good order and discipline. I also believe something like this can only happen in a vacuum of good leadership.
Just to clarify one point - the biggest issue with the hookers (besides the UCMJ violation) was they were bringing them to an off site “safe house” used for operational purposes. This was a serious breach of operational security.
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