View Full Version : P320 M17 review on American Rifleman website
The pistol shot pretty well.
https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2018/11/13/tested-sig-sauer-p320-m17-pistol/
What do we know about the M17 commercial model vs the Real Deal? What's different between the Army's pistol and the civilian one?
And what's the deal with the M18? Anyone heard a rumor about a commemorative or commercial model? Or maybe an M18 conversion kit?
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Business_Casual
11-17-18, 20:24
I’m still looking at this like “that’s a P250 in drag with a high bore-axis and a single action that has no trigger safety” so as much as I would like to get one, I won’t.
hopetonbrown
11-17-18, 23:57
The pistol shot pretty well.
Everything shoots well in the American Rifleman, NRA trade publication.
Everything shoots well in the American Rifleman, NRA trade publication.
Not necessarily. Check out this review:
https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2018/10/23/tested-tisas-regent-br9-hi-power-pistol/
ramairthree
11-18-18, 09:32
Not necessarily. Check out this review:
https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2018/10/23/tested-tisas-regent-br9-hi-power-pistol/
Guess they did not buy enough advertising to get the story buffed.
Dang. Tough crowd!
Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. I'll be here all week!
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ramairthree
11-18-18, 19:39
Joking aside, mine shoots well. I need to get a holster for it. I put a TLR-8 on it.
I will buy the M18 as a companion piece if they come out with it.
It’s a weird circle.
We had huge service pistols in metal, like the M9.
Then a bunch of strikers with some size decrease.
Then full sized competion strikers.
Now full sized service striker pistols, FNX, M17, etc.
While I like full sized guns, compacts, and subcompacts just big enough to get a full grip on,
I still am not enamored with full sized grips combined with compact slides/barrels.
But for some reason, a compact slide like a G19 with a subcompact grip like a G26 I could do.
sigmundsauer
11-21-18, 15:57
I'm somewhat disappointed in the American Rifleman for not doing a larger, dedicated piece to a new service pistol. This is big news for military connoisseurs and collectors and the M17 is in all likelihood the best service pistol ever conceived. Even if it is not, it is still a big deal and deserves some sizeable page space dedicated to introducing our new service pistol. Was hoping for a review of the actual contract gun vs. the commercial variant.
Tim
I'm somewhat disappointed in the American Rifleman for not doing a larger, dedicated piece to a new service pistol. This is big news for military connoisseurs and collectors and the M17 is in all likelihood the best service pistol ever conceived. Even if it is not, it is still a big deal and deserves some sizeable page space dedicated to introducing our new service pistol. Was hoping for a review of the actual contract gun vs. the commercial variant.
TimPrint and online are not always the same. I'd expect a full-on magazine spread at some point in the near future.
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Bravo Sierra
11-22-18, 09:13
Alright guys, enough with the sig 320 jokes, just drop it.
Alright guys, enough with the sig 320 jokes, just drop it.Groan....
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Alright guys, enough with the sig 320 jokes, just drop it.
Drop it? Like throw it in a room full of bad guys and they're all dead before it stops rattling around on the floor?
The lockwork design of these pistols was just incompetent. I took one look at all those rotating rather than sliding internal safety parts and predicted they would be a drop fire problem. SIG USA is not a gun design firm of any standing like Sauer or SIG Swiss. Anyone remember how the original P229 slides cracked? Same people.
Here's a telephonic interview with a marketing executive from SIG. Sound quality is not the best but there's some good info here:
https://youtu.be/oNJpVT7XbiM
Edited to add that this video is already posted here on the forum. Link to that thread here:
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Em4carbine%2Enet%2Fshowthread%2Ephp%3Ft%3D210981&share_tid=210981&share_fid=11029&share_type=t
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This link came up when I opened the above youtube video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zucVf7tMXY
Anyone heard if the M17 problems this presenter is referring to from the government report have been corrected?
https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2018/02/01/the-army-is-working-to-fix-flaws-in-its-new-handgun-after-critical-dod-report/
Ball ammo issues!?!
MountainRaven
11-22-18, 20:57
This link came up when I opened the above youtube video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zucVf7tMXY
Anyone heard if the M17 problems this presenter is referring to from the government report have been corrected?
https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2018/02/01/the-army-is-working-to-fix-flaws-in-its-new-handgun-after-critical-dod-report/
Ball ammo issues!?!
My understanding is that those issues occurred with the prototype weapons and are supposed to be resolved with the production versions.
Drop it? Like throw it in a room full of bad guys and they're all dead before it stops rattling around on the floor?
I think he's actually making a joke.... ;)
My understanding is that those issues occurred with the prototype weapons and are supposed to be resolved with the production versions.
I'm sure the military isn't planning on accepting weapons that can't cycle ball. Just wondering if the resolution you're referring to actually happened yet.
Bravo Sierra
11-23-18, 09:57
I think he's actually making a joke.... ;)
Lets just drop it.
Lets just drop it.
No! Don't drop it!
Yes, I was joking too and maybe a little to far. My apologies.
One of the knocks against the Beretta M9 was that "it's just too damn big for a 9mm". The M17 doesn't look all that small, either, although the grip is probably more accommodating to smaller hands.
One of the knocks against the Beretta M9 was that "it's just too damn big for a 9mm". The M17 doesn't look all that small, either, although the grip is probably more accommodating to smaller hands.
It isn't particularly light, either. Heavier than an alloy framed SIG P228/M11.
I was watching Chris Bartocci's latest video on the M17. According to him, the M17/M18 Program Manager is considering introducing an Engineering Change Proposal (ECP) that would bring the M17 trigger up to the latest P320 commercial standard. I think that was expected at some point. He also said that Picatinny is also working through some other issues.
I was watching Chris Bartocci's latest video on the M17. According to him, the M17/M18 Program Manager is considering introducing an Engineering Change Proposal (ECP) that would bring the M17 trigger up to the latest P320 commercial standard. I think that was expected at some point. He also said that Picatinny is also working through some other issues.Sound quality is not the best but many of the questions/concerns here are addressed in the video I linked above.
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sigmundsauer
11-26-18, 09:20
The lockwork design of these pistols was just incompetent. I took one look at all those rotating rather than sliding internal safety parts and predicted they would be a drop fire problem. SIG USA is not a gun design firm of any standing like Sauer or SIG Swiss. Anyone remember how the original P229 slides cracked? Same people.
Of course, you mean, like the folded slide P228 and P226 frames cracking?
...roll pins cracking?
...slide welds cracking?
I cherish my German SIGs but they were not remotely as durable as the US-made derivatives. In fact, the US-designed P239 was pretty darn bullet proof from the get-go.
Every respectable service pistol has undergone an evolution of sorts that have ultimately resulted in a better combat gun.
Tim
Of course, you mean, like the folded slide P228 and P226 frames cracking?
...roll pins cracking?
...slide welds cracking?
I cherish my German SIGs but they were not remotely as durable as the US-made derivatives. In fact, the US-designed P239 was pretty darn bullet proof from the get-go.
Every respectable service pistol has undergone an evolution of sorts that have ultimately resulted in a better combat gun.
Tim
No, I mean the first round of US machined 229 slides were incompetently executed and would crack at the ejection port, despite being thicker than the stamped slides. The failed because of poor metallurgy and amateur engineering.
The stamped guns go back to the mid-70s and have excellent reputations in military service and were produced in 3 calibers.
sigmundsauer
11-26-18, 14:19
Fair enough. I personally like the stamped slides better. The investment cast stainless steel (Ruger) slides do have their advantages, though. The cast slides survived while the folded slides were relegated to the history books.
Tim
No, I mean the first round of US machined 229 slides were incompetently executed and would crack at the ejection port, despite being thicker than the stamped slides. The failed because of poor metallurgy and amateur engineering.
The stamped guns go back to the mid-70s and have excellent reputations in military service and were produced in 3 calibers.Was the stamped slide used in 40 S&W? Isn't that cartridge what prompted the change in the first place?
In SIG's defense, it isn't the only company to make changes to a design with the advent of the 40. That cartridge was known to cause premature wear in just about everything in was chambered in. Glock, Beretta, S&W. None of those early 9mm guns with a 40 barrel added faired too well.
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Fair enough. I personally like the stamped slides better. The investment cast stainless steel (Ruger) slides do have their advantages, though. The cast slides survived while the folded slides were relegated to the history books.
Tim
The P229 weren't cast like the Rugers but machined from barstock. The stamped slides don't exist anymore because SIG does not make anything in the Sauer plant anymore.
Was the stamped slide used in 40 S&W? Isn't that cartridge what prompted the change in the first place?
In SIG's defense, it isn't the only company to make changes to a design with the advent of the 40. That cartridge was known to cause premature wear in just about everything in was chambered in. Glock, Beretta, S&W. None of those early 9mm guns with a 40 barrel added faired too well.
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The basic design of the P229 is excellent - Sig was one of the first companies to add the appropriate amount of slide mass to counter .40s recoil; HK was the first. Everyone else just took a 9mm pistol and opened up the breech and bore. Sig never made a stamped slide gun in .40 or .357 - just 9, .38 Super and .45.
My point about SIG's quality problems is that the brand got its reputation from Switzerland and Germany - not the US. The US guys were originally just importers and the very first thing they produced were P229 slides. Since then they have had QC problems with just about everything, while nearly every Euro design (SigPro, for instance) had an excellent reputation. It is beyond simply teething problems - I truly don't think they have people qualified to design guns, which is why they and Bruce Gray were in such disbelief when the guns started ADing. Being a gunsmith, even a good one, doesn't make you a gun designer.
Sig is such a meme but whatever.
How did such a piece of shit pass all of the trials?
How did such a piece of shit pass all of the trials?
There weren't any initial trials. They just took bids and bought an "off the shelf" weapon. Then they tested it.
Every gun now that is just a Glock Cover band
dwhitehorne
11-30-18, 08:04
The current issue with the Sig P320 is nothing ever dies on the internet. Someone comes in with a youtube video in early 2018 referencing a DOD report from 2017 that was a compilation of testing done during 2015/2016 time frame. 10 years from now people will still bring up these questions and complain that Glock did not get picked. Glock could not be picked because they did not full meet the requirements in the solicitation. You don't spend the time and money for the full battery of elimination testing when you only have one pistol left that meets the solicitation requirement.
As for some of the reported issues with double feeds and live rounds falling out. Giving soldiers that are proficient rifle shooters a bunch of handguns to test doesn't make them weapons experts. I saw everything from thumbs forward grip to cup and saucer in the one test I attended. Riding the slide release caused the slide to lock back with rounds still in the mag. An immediate action response of tap rack lot of times would create a worse double feed.
Is Sig the best gun out there? Time will only tell but it is currently one of the most tested guns. David
MountainRaven
11-30-18, 13:08
The current issue with the Sig P320 is nothing ever dies on the internet. Someone comes in with a youtube video in early 2018 referencing a DOD report from 2017 that was a compilation of testing done during 2015/2016 time frame. 10 years from now people will still bring up these questions and complain that Glock did not get picked. Glock could not be picked because they did not full meet the requirements in the solicitation. You don't spend the time and money for the full battery of elimination testing when you only have one pistol left that meets the solicitation requirement.
As for some of the reported issues with double feeds and live rounds falling out. Giving soldiers that are proficient rifle shooters a bunch of handguns to test doesn't make them weapons experts. I saw everything from thumbs forward grip to cup and saucer in the one test I attended. Riding the slide release caused the slide to lock back with rounds still in the mag. An immediate action response of tap rack lot of times would create a worse double feed.
Is Sig the best gun out there? Time will only tell but it is currently one of the most tested guns. David
This is factually incorrect.
The Glock entry met the requirements.
The process was:
-Initial testing (to weed out the absolute junk)
-Bids
-Full testing
Anything that didn't meet the MHS contract requirements would not have made it to the initial testing, let alone to the bidding process.
Both Glock and SiG passed the initial testing and submitted their bids.
Based only on the bids, the Army selected the SiG submission.
Neither firearm was subjected to the full battery of testing.
Based only on the bids, the Army selected the SiG submission.
Is that a bad thing? Obviously we want a durable and reliable product but, as a taxpayer, I don't necessarily see a problem.
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dwhitehorne
11-30-18, 13:25
This is factually incorrect.
I'll have to find the solicitation at work and read back over. I've been requested to do a COR survey on every Federal handgun solicitation since my Agency selected the P320 in 2015. I could be getting them mixed up. David
I'll have to find the solicitation at work and read back over. I've been requested to do a COR survey on every Federal handgun solicitation since my Agency selected the P320 in 2015. I could be getting them mixed up. DavidSo you probably have as much experience with the 320 as anyone being a user since 2015. Any crazy issues with the guns? Bad QC? One gun shoots great with a good trigger while the next one is crunchy and inaccurate? Etc, etc?
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dwhitehorne
11-30-18, 15:03
I took delivery of 250 in 2015 and 200 in 2016. Then in Dec 2017 Sig replaced all 450 of those and sent us 200 more in Jan 2018. I'm the Firearms Intake Officer and have function tested all 650 at least once. I have field striped the guns in DC where I work and lubed everyone of them to my standard for the 43 transition classes we have run so far. I think the redesigned giuns are nicer than the originals. My first gun had over 4000 rounds through it. I took it to FIRTP last summer before I switched it out in December. I never had an issue with my first gun. My second gun I have now went with me through a Mid-South class at Quantico in the Spring. I was the only Sig in the class of Glocks and everyone wanted to try my gun.
I will say I prefer the newer trigger shape to the older version. Other than that the guns shoot about the same for me. Having hundreds of guns to compare I see that different people assemble them. Some guns have white grease on some contact points. Some guns have no white grease on them at all. As for the triggers they are all similar. I can tell a few have a crisper break than others but my uncalibrated trigger finger has them pretty similar. I can tell the difference between a gun that is bone dry to one that is lubed up.
As for accuracy, we went from the P2000 LEM in 40 to the P320 carry in 9mm so universally the officers seem to prefer the Sig. Our course of fire is so easy I really don't see a difference in scores but the groups are definitely tighter.
We haven't had any issues with the new guns. All 450 of the old guns were removed from service in June so everyone with a Sig has the new model. We haven't has any of the new guns break. We did have an officer incorrectly disassemble his pistol take down lever (which is not authorized) and booger up the O ring.
The number one issue we had was the magazines. Our indoor range in DC has a concrete floor. The first two versions of mags we tried had the base plates come apart when being dropped. Only with people over 6 feet tall though. The newest mags with the updated guns have now gone through two qual session and we haven't had one move yet.
In the end we were definitely a beta tester. I knew it when the Pistol Eval Committee picked the Sig. Since Sig replaced every gun I can't complain. I will say the logistics of getting 450 guns off the street from DC, NY, CA and GA in 6 months was kind of a pain. David
In the end we were definitely a beta tester. I knew it when the Pistol Eval Committee picked the Sig. Since Sig replaced every gun I can't complain. I will say the logistics of getting 450 guns off the street from DC, NY, CA and GA in 6 months was kind of a pain. David
How long were those 450 officers in the field with the defective, fires-if-dropped, guns?
I took delivery of 250 in 2015 and 200 in 2016. Then in Dec 2017 Sig replaced all 450 of those and sent us 200 more in Jan 2018. I'm the Firearms Intake Officer and have function tested all 650 at least once. I have field striped the guns in DC where I work and lubed everyone of them to my standard for the 43 transition classes we have run so far. I think the redesigned giuns are nicer than the originals. My first gun had over 4000 rounds through it. I took it to FIRTP last summer before I switched it out in December. I never had an issue with my first gun. My second gun I have now went with me through a Mid-South class at Quantico in the Spring. I was the only Sig in the class of Glocks and everyone wanted to try my gun.
I will say I prefer the newer trigger shape to the older version. Other than that the guns shoot about the same for me. Having hundreds of guns to compare I see that different people assemble them. Some guns have white grease on some contact points. Some guns have no white grease on them at all. As for the triggers they are all similar. I can tell a few have a crisper break than others but my uncalibrated trigger finger has them pretty similar. I can tell the difference between a gun that is bone dry to one that is lubed up.
As for accuracy, we went from the P2000 LEM in 40 to the P320 carry in 9mm so universally the officers seem to prefer the Sig. Our course of fire is so easy I really don't see a difference in scores but the groups are definitely tighter.
We haven't had any issues with the new guns. All 450 of the old guns were removed from service in June so everyone with a Sig has the new model. We haven't has any of the new guns break. We did have an officer incorrectly disassemble his pistol take down lever (which is not authorized) and booger up the O ring.
The number one issue we had was the magazines. Our indoor range in DC has a concrete floor. The first two versions of mags we tried had the base plates come apart when being dropped. Only with people over 6 feet tall though. The newest mags with the updated guns have now gone through two qual session and we haven't had one move yet.
In the end we were definitely a beta tester. I knew it when the Pistol Eval Committee picked the Sig. Since Sig replaced every gun I can't complain. I will say the logistics of getting 450 guns off the street from DC, NY, CA and GA in 6 months was kind of a pain. David
It sounds like your agency has probably as much experience with the 320 as anyone other than maybe Texas DPS and, now of course, the Army.
It also sounds like the guns have been working well even with all the "recall" drama. Are you aware of any other problems? Any oddball broken parts or odd cases of spring fatigue not counting the user-induced O ring?
What is your duty load? +P or standard pressure? Do you use the same stuff for quals and practice?
dwhitehorne
12-01-18, 18:24
How long were those 450 officers in the field with the defective, fires-if-dropped, guns?
Well after all the videos started coming out in August 2017 we had replacement guns in 120 days. It took me about 2 months to get everyone swapped out and qualified where a work. David
dwhitehorne
12-01-18, 18:53
We had a class or two of guns down at FLETC choke on their frangible ammo in 2016. Some brand called ICC that in 45 years of shooting have never heard of. I didn't blame that on the guns because they switched over to lead ammo from known manufactures and didn't have anymore problems. The rest of the Force started with 147 grain Winchester Ranger bonded. We then switched to Speer G2. All off the FBI contracts. We generally always run duty ammo but for the transition course we started with Federal 90 grain frangible I have left over. I then ordered some Speer 100 grain +P for 2016. This past year the FBI contract had some Winchester 147 grain FMJE and we have been running that.
Like said before we only had major issues with the old mags. The 2015 guns had very short mag springs and they crapped out after a year. Many running our issued TLR-1 light were having issues with the last round in the mag. The latest mags with the new guns have been fine this year. We have only had the one new gun go down and I blame it on operator error. From the older guns we had an o ring at FLETC break. I know one gun in California had extraction issues. We had one officer during on handed drills slam her gun on the concrete with the slide locked to the rear and bent the right side slide stop. The guns at FLETC that were having extraction issues with the ICC ammo Sig sent us all new extractors and the now longer extractor pin. After 2016 all guns had the longer pin. We also had a handful of guns have the tritium vial go out.
Currently my personal pet peeve is the Ford interceptors seatbelts sure wear on the stippling on the grip. It is only a handful of officers thought so I don't know what the are doing to wear of the grips so bad. With only about 10 to 11 months of service on the replacement guns I don't have any major issues. Once DHS/INS/CBP or whoever gets thousands of guns in daily use will be know what may crop up. David
Once DHS/INS/CBP or whoever gets thousands of guns in daily use will be know what may crop up.
CBP hasn't chosen a new pistol yet. The process is underway now. If it stays on time the gun should be announced in Spring 2019 with the ammo contract to follow thereafter.
ICE selected the 320 probably close to two years ago but I don't think they have been fielded in large numbers. Not sure if there are funding issues or what.
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dwhitehorne
12-01-18, 21:14
CBP hasn't chosen a new pistol yet. The process is underway now. If it stays on time the gun should be announced in Spring 2019 with the ammo contract to follow thereafter.
ICE selected the 320 probably close to two years ago but I don't think they have been fielded in large numbers. Not sure if there are funding issues or what.
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Yes I know. I've spoken with multiple DHS entities and some FLECT people who were probably DHS in the past 2 years. It's bad enough in the DOI. I can keep all of those acronyms straight. ;) David
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WW-u0H5rRdA
Well after all the videos started coming out in August 2017 we had replacement guns in 120 days. It took me about 2 months to get everyone swapped out and qualified where a work. David
Sorry, I missed your response.
The guns weren't drop safe before the videos, so how long in total did your officers have dangerous weapons in the field from issue to replacement?
Sorry, I missed your response.
The guns weren't drop safe before the videos, so how long in total did your officers have dangerous weapons in the field from issue to replacement?How long were 1911s unsafe before Colt and others either added a firing pin block or lightened the firing pin?
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How long were 1911s unsafe before Colt and others either added a firing pin block or lightened the firing pin?
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Did Colt and every other manufacturer safetyless inertial firing pin guns issue a recall and modify every pistol without a firing pin block?
Nope. They are still made today and distributed today.
It is one thing to have a gun possibly fire muzzle down, quite another for it to fire at 45° muzzle up. One officer has already been shot by a P320 and a consumer narrowly avoided it - both months before the videos. They were very unsafe guns.
It is one thing to have a gun possibly fire muzzle down, quite another for it to fire at 45° muzzle up. One officer has already been shot by a P320 and a consumer narrowly avoided it - both months before the videos. They were very unsafe guns.
What's your point? SIG has addressed the drop issue by swapping out department guns for new. Granted it seems to have taken awhile to admit there was a problem but once the Omaha Outdoors video broke SIG was quick to respond.
Could the "upgrade" have been handled better on the civilian side? Probably. I would have made it a recall and not a voluntary upgrade. Doesn't matter if the original gun passes a portion of the SAAMI drop test or not I would have pulled the guns back in and retrofitted all of them.
With that said, the few posts and threads I've seen relating to the upgrade process make it sound like the whole process has gone well. Guns are getting turned around in short order and most users like the new trigger as much, or more, than the original.
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What's your point? SIG has addressed the drop issue by swapping out department guns for new. Granted it seems to have taken awhile to admit there was a problem but once the Omaha Outdoors video broke SIG was quick to respond.
Could the "upgrade" have been handled better on the civilian side? Probably. I would have made it a recall and not a voluntary upgrade. Doesn't matter if the original gun passes a portion of the SAAMI drop test or not I would have pulled the guns back in and retrofitted all of them.
With that said, the few posts and threads I've seen relating to the upgrade process make it sound like the whole process has gone well. Guns are getting turned around in short order and most users like the new trigger as much, or more, than the original.
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The "point"? I had asked how long officers were walking around with guns that were unsafe. That's a question, not a point.
My personal take on the P320 is that the basic lockwork shows a fundamental lack of firearms engineering expertise since the use of rotating (vs. sliding in opposing planes) unbalanced parts pretty much guaranteed that there would be certain vectors that make the whole trigger system move - just like it did. Sig's fix for this enormous idiocy was to make the trigger lower mass, but that doesn't really fix the fundamental problem - it just increases the drop forces necessary to make the gun fire on its own - and some of the new low mass triggers have shown to be fragile.
Drop safe automatic pistols are over 100 years old. New gun companies keep finding new ways to screw up. I knew the US distributor for Vektor and told him the CP-1 lockwork also looked unsafe back in 1998 - 2 years later they were recalling those for drop firing.
Sig's fix for this enormous idiocy was to make the trigger lower mass, but that doesn't really fix the fundamental problem - it just increases the drop forces necessary to make the gun fire on its own - and some of the new low mass triggers have shown to be fragile.
There's more to it than just installing a lighter trigger.
There's more to it than just installing a lighter trigger.
Yup. But they didn't completely change the gun, just made small changes to some of the parts - like the trigger.
dwhitehorne
12-13-18, 10:13
Sorry, I missed your response.
The guns weren't drop safe before the videos, so how long in total did your officers have dangerous weapons in the field from issue to replacement?
We first took delivery of our first batch of 320’s in October 2015. We wrote up a transition lesson plan and in January 2016 I conducted a transition class for the instructors. April 2016 we started holding transition classes once a week for the rest of 2016. In 2017 we ran transition classes once a month. By the time we got notice of Sig replacing the pistols we had over 400 issued out. I looked at it as no different than any other recall. We’ve had all of our pistol ammo and all of our rifle ammo recalled from the street twice since I’ve supervised the Firearms unit. Which one is worse? Who knows. I will say it is all a logical challenge. Also I can’t remember how many times I’ve had cruisers recalled. Hell all the new Explorers have white carbon monoxide detectors stuck on the dash right now. Not addressing the exhaust problem, just monitoring it. David
We first took delivery of our first batch of 320’s in October 2015. We wrote up a transition lesson plan and in January 2016 I conducted a transition class for the instructors. April 2016 we started holding transition classes once a week for the rest of 2016. In 2017 we ran transition classes once a month. By the time we got notice of Sig replacing the pistols we had over 400 issued out. I looked at it as no different than any other recall. We’ve had all of our pistol ammo and all of our rifle ammo recalled from the street twice since I’ve supervised the Firearms unit. Which one is worse? Who knows. I will say it is all a logical challenge. Also I can’t remember how many times I’ve had cruisers recalled. Hell all the new Explorers have white carbon monoxide detectors stuck on the dash right now. Not addressing the exhaust problem, just monitoring it. David
Thank you for clarifying.
Yup. But they didn't completely change the gun, just made small changes to some of the parts - like the trigger.
In case you haven't seen this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9vIY2EoJwE
I will admit to a personal bias against the P320. I handled one in my LGS a few years ago and it felt "cheap" to me. Somehow Glocks don't feel cheap yet I don't have a Glock. I've shot one at the range and it didn't impress me. I have in the past been an impulse gun buyer but the P320 didn't even give me a twitch...
I want our troops to have a decent pistol and I read it wasn't thoroughly tested. All weapon systems have teething issues and this appears no different. I'm willing to let it prove itself over the next few years and I hope we as a country are able to avoid further troubles overseas until, at least, it does get wrung out.
https://www.swatmag.com/article/u-s-army-duty-handgun-for-civilians-sig-sauer-p320-m17/?utm_source=newsletter
https://youtu.be/F2cOfS4-SY0
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Some guns have white grease on some contact points. Some guns have no white grease on them at all.
I purchased two P320s a while back; an X5 and an XCarry. My first two trips out to the range I had a combined 10 light primer strikes in 450 rounds as well as four failure to go into battery. All of the light strikes went bang in a G45 or a CZ with a 13 lb hammer spring (known to fail on hard primers).
I was getting quite frustrated that my new very expensive Sigs were not running. I was on the verge of sending them to Sig, but didn’t want to front the cash to ship two new pistols. I decided to check the striker channels. Sure enough, both strikers were sticky to remove and coated in thick white grease as you describe. It is my understanding that these parts are not to be lubed, and certainly not in need of grease. It was quite surprised Sig would send out a gun that way.
Since cleaning the strikers and the channels, both have run 100%.
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dwhitehorne
01-23-19, 11:48
I don't know what it is with people and white grease. I had a Remington 308 sent to me recently because of light primer strikes. Same as you, the firing pin spring was so coated with white grease that it was slowing the firing pin down. That was the first time I had ever seen white grease on a spring. I guess people are thinking on the assembly line, if I get rid of this tube of grease I can take a longer smoke break going to get another tube. David
More 320 news.
https://www.foxnews.com/tech/air-force-deploys-new-handgun-as-it-modernizes-weapons
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halfmoonclip
03-15-19, 10:17
One thing with the Sig 'chassis' system, and I'm more than willing to be wrong about this...I thot' one of the requirements of the new service pistol was the modularity aspect, enabling different sized grips for the individual soldier, not simply different backstraps. The Glock doesn't permit this.
Secondly, I thot' the notion included different barrel and slide lengths used with a common chassis, permitting adjustment for particular mission.
On the last, many PDs seem to have adopted the G19 as the maid of all work, and it would seem to me that the M18 would fill that niche as well for the Armed Services.
Moon
One thing with the Sig 'chassis' system, and I'm more than willing to be wrong about this...I thot' one of the requirements of the new service pistol was the modularity aspect, enabling different sized grips for the individual soldier, not simply different backstraps. The Glock doesn't permit this.
Secondly, I thot' the notion included different barrel and slide lengths used with a common chassis, permitting adjustment for particular mission.
On the last, many PDs seem to have adopted the G19 as the maid of all work, and it would seem to me that the M18 would fill that niche as well for the Armed Services.
Moon
Your assertions are incorrect. Pistols that didn’t meet their requirements did not pass the first phase of testing. Only Glock and Sig made it to the second phase. Testing was stopped before completion and awarded to Sig. Glock met requirements.
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Edit to add that primary & secondary has a mod cast with Ash Hess who was in on the adoption that explains more about the trial and contract.
ramairthree
03-15-19, 10:46
Is anyone here actually into the modular chassis concept?
Is anyone here actually into the modular chassis concept?
Some benefits for institutional purchasers. Some specific use cases for individuals, depending on local laws, tax stamp costs, maybe some competition minded folks with particular needs. For most people, however, there is not much practical advantage. Modularity won't be a determining purchase factor for the vast majority of consumer purchasers, as most use cases aren't affected by a grip swap.
So "into" it, as a concept, sure. Fantastic idea. I have one. I still use a Gen3 Glock. My wife still uses a CZ. My kids still use Red Ryder. The Red Ryders were probably the least modular of the four despite being on the market the longest. I was very disappointed in the lack of aftermarket support.
I recently attended a law enforcement firearms instructor course. Most of the students were running Glocks but one officer was using a 320 full size.
He says his department has authorized the compact conversion kit as an option for those wishing or needing to carry a smaller package. Only caveat is that one of the armorers must perform the swap.
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halfmoonclip
03-15-19, 15:45
What I've liked thus far, with the P365 and the M17, is the ability to pull the chassis from the poly lower and clean it without taking anything else apart. My M17 is reputed to be the medium size, and it fits me well. I can picture new lowers, available in the future, for exchange...I presume Sig already has 3 sizes OEM.
Isllc, the modularity aspect had been touted for quite some time before the selection was made; what I'm hearing here, now, sounds different. So it goes; might have been internet bs.
Moon
It'll be interesting to see the outcome of the lawsuit that Steyr brought against SIG regarding the chassis concept.
It'll be interesting to see the outcome of the lawsuit that Steyr brought against SIG regarding the chassis concept.Is Steyr also suing Ruger and Beretta?
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Or maybe anybody making an AR15 pistol...because there is a frame holding fire control groups and the grips are interchangeable.
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halfmoonclip
03-16-19, 09:54
Tok, don't I recall the firing mechanism pulling out of your namesake pistol as well? Seems like an idea that was in the public domain.
Moon
Tok, don't I recall the firing mechanism pulling out of your namesake pistol as well? Seems like an idea that was in the public domain.
MoonYes, indeed.
The Tokarev TT33 has a "chassis" that can be lifted out of the frame when the slide is off. The chassis contains the hammer and sear mechanism as well as feed lips that sit above the magazine.
The trigger itself stays in the frame and doesn't come out with the hammer and sear assembly.
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halfmoonclip
03-16-19, 11:09
A bunch of us went to see Enemy at the Gates and watched a young Khrushchev motivating the proletariat with a Tokarev, and we all promptly went out and bought some. Neat piece of ironmongery. :)
Moon
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