View Full Version : Man who stops a shooting, shot by responding officers
http://concealednation.org/2018/11/good-guy-with-a-gun-stops-mass-shooting-is-then-shot-and-killed-by-responding-officers/
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Terrible shame on so may levels. Sad sad day.
The probable high dollar law suit will be little consolation on that one.
That was a bad, bad shoot officers.
this is why trust for LEO is going down and down !
you have people saying he is the security guard over and over and cop shoots him anyways ? freaking pathetic
this is also why I say when it comes time to round up guns and many say OH cops wont do it ? but some will do what you think they wont !!!
I can hear “auditory exclusion” on this one.
There is a time to drop the hammer and a time to cover and assess.
Too frequently I’m reading of major fails with LE shoots.
RetroRevolver77
11-18-18, 11:29
deleted
Seems like a part of human nature. The fact that just happens again and again seems like a clue.
I cannot for the life of me remember where I read it, but one officer commented that in training rotations with active shooters the plain clothes officer would again and again get shot if he was apprehending a suspect. I'm not saying that's okay, but it seems to be what happens regardless.
this is why trust for LEO is going down and down !
you have people saying he is the security guard over and over and cop shoots him anyways ? freaking pathetic
this is also why I say when it comes time to round up guns and many say OH cops wont do it ? but some will do what you think they wont !!!
Most cops can cooly evaluate a shooting scenario like this story on the fly and manage it effectively and safely. I don't know if that's true, but let's just say it is. The problem is that there are some cops that just don't have the emotional temperament to do that. Because of those cops, whatever the percentage is, I would think that it's extremely unwise to be holding a firearm when the police arrive on the scene.
FromMyColdDeadHand
11-18-18, 13:14
Seems like a part of human nature. The fact that just happens again and again seems like a clue.
I cannot for the life of me remember where I read it, but one officer commented that in training rotations with active shooters the plain clothes officer would again and again get shot if he was apprehending a suspect. I'm not saying that's okay, but it seems to be what happens regardless.
For civilians, having a gun out covering an injured AS is not going to go well. Do we get to the point where ccw’ers are having to put down AS hard to eliminate the risk of the AS not staying down? Put them down, ensure he;s alone, get the gun put away and wait to identify yourself later? It isn’t like doing mag dumps is that uncommon for LEOs.
Apparently this guy was dressed in a ballistic vest with Security markings and a security marked hat.....and people told the officers he was security. Sad case indeed.
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PRO-TIP:
When the cops show up, do not have a gun in your hand.
As has been mentioned in past police f**k-ups, it's time to ramp up holding said officer(s) to CRIMINAL charges. Screw the civil liability shit, $$$ ain't gonna bring back a life. Once prison is a likely outcome then things will change.
This case stinks to high heaven......
I would think that it's extremely unwise to be holding a firearm when the police arrive on the scene.
PRO-TIP:
When the cops show up, do not have a gun in your hand.
This is the most important takeaway for citizens that carry. It is an unfortunate circumstance.
It's been said here before but unfortunately the police believe gun=bad guy. Their only solution is to shoot and since there is a gun there is no accountability for the officer. If, as an armed citizen, you have to engage a bad guy then shoot until the threat is stopped or runs off and then re- holster quickly. If you have a gun in your hand when the police arrive you are a dead man.
Question for a current police officer - does anyone still train on the FATS simulator? We had to go through it a couple of times a year and there were tons of shoot/no shoot scenarios when encountering armed, plainclothes people.
For civilians, having a gun out covering an injured AS is not going to go well. Do we get to the point where ccw’ers are having to put down AS hard to eliminate the risk of the AS not staying down? Put them down, ensure he;s alone, get the gun put away and wait to identify yourself later? It isn’t like doing mag dumps is that uncommon for LEOs.
Why wouldn't anyone apply the proper amount of firepower to end such a situation permanently to start with?
Last I checked "shoot to ground" was the prevalent training in many/most legit classes.
If someone is already shooting the place up there's no reason to give them a freebie...
Or at least, that's my humble opinion.
PRO-TIP:
When the cops show up, do not have a gun in your hand.
Sage advice.
LMT Shooter
11-19-18, 00:16
Lots of folks advocating for not having a gun in hand when the cops arrive. Unless I misread the article linked in the first post, the shooter was alive. I wouldn't be comfortable putting my weapon away with a living shooter present & unrestrained. And honestly, how will someone know exactly when the cops will show up in all cases? My instincts make me want to believe that these solutions are imperfect, and that like many situations, there is no perfect answer. LE needs to be training to recognize that not every person with a gun is a threat.
It's been said here before but unfortunately the police believe gun=bad guy. Their only solution is to shoot and since there is a gun there is no accountability for the officer. If, as an armed citizen, you have to engage a bad guy then shoot until the threat is stopped or runs off and then re- holster quickly. If you have a gun in your hand when the police arrive you are a dead man.
The reality is you will see fewer CCW types coming to anyone's aid. I used to always be certain that if I saw a cop get shot, I'm going in and covering / helping until other officers arrived. Now I'm less certain, the bar has been lowered to the benefit of no one.
It's quickly becoming a matter of take care of me and mine, and honestly that sucks. If I knew the risk was "maybe save a cop or some 100% innocent who deserves to be helped but maybe get shot by bad guy" I would probably still be up for it, but if the risk is "maybe save a cop or some 100% innocent who deserves to be helped but maybe get shot by a cop", well that changes lots of things. Seems to happen too frequently to be an anomaly.
Why wouldn't anyone apply the proper amount of firepower to end such a situation permanently to start with?
Last I checked "shoot to ground" was the prevalent training in many/most legit classes.
If someone is already shooting the place up there's no reason to give them a freebie...
Or at least, that's my humble opinion.
Not everyone knows that and most have a "shoot to stop" mindset and with the fact that almost everything is on camera these days anchor shots don't look like a defensive shoot.
FromMyColdDeadHand
11-19-18, 01:18
Why wouldn't anyone apply the proper amount of firepower to end such a situation permanently to start with?
Last I checked "shoot to ground" was the prevalent training in many/most legit classes.
If someone is already shooting the place up there's no reason to give them a freebie...
Or at least, that's my humble opinion.
Lots of folks advocating for not having a gun in hand when the cops arrive. Unless I misread the article linked in the first post, the shooter was alive. I wouldn't be comfortable putting my weapon away with a living shooter present & unrestrained. And honestly, how will someone know exactly when the cops will show up in all cases? My instincts make me want to believe that these solutions are imperfect, and that like many situations, there is no perfect answer. LE needs to be training to recognize that not every person with a gun is a threat.
The second situation is the reason for my original question/comment. The first comment is true, you shoot until the threat is no longer a threat, but frankly, if the guy is still breathing, he is a threat. If he has a ballistic vest on, those 9mm rounds from a 3-4 inch barrel might not be as damaging as initially indicated. Sure, kick his gun away- does he have a explosive vest on? Does he have a back-up gun?
We are talking about 1 in a million, chance of this happening to any CCW in any year.
I guess what I'm saying is that in an AS situation, a CCWer should be held to a different and much looser standard than a LEO or a security guard- or even a CCWer in a normal situation. Acknowledging that holding a gun on an injuried AS puts the CCWer in danger, use of a level of force beyond threat mitigation to a looser standard of danger elimination. Not for every CCW event like a hold-up, just in circumstances like AS where there could be more than one shooter, suicide vests, and responding officers.
ETA: Aug was typing while I was slowing working on mine, but I think we are the same track. I was just trying to avoid the use of the word "anchor". But yes, in an AS situation; Anchors away, baby- but to what legal jeopardy?
The second situation is the reason for my original question/comment. The first comment is true, you shoot until the threat is no longer a threat, but frankly, if the guy is still breathing, he is a threat. If he has a ballistic vest on, those 9mm rounds from a 3-4 inch barrel might not be as damaging as initially indicated. Sure, kick his gun away- does he have a explosive vest on? Does he have a back-up gun?
We are talking about 1 in a million, chance of this happening to any CCW in any year.
I guess what I'm saying is that in an AS situation, a CCWer should be held to a different and much looser standard than a LEO or a security guard- or even a CCWer in a normal situation. Acknowledging that holding a gun on an injuried AS puts the CCWer in danger, use of a level of force beyond threat mitigation to a looser standard of danger elimination. Not for every CCW event like a hold-up, just in circumstances like AS where there could be more than one shooter, suicide vests, and responding officers.
ETA: Aug was typing while I was slowing working on mine, but I think we are the same track. I was just trying to avoid the use of the word "anchor". But yes, in an AS situation; Anchors away, baby- but to what legal jeopardy?
I try to make it less complicated- laws are sticky, DA’s and judges and jury’s are fickle beasts.
I’d rather be alive and judged than dead and judged.
Sure, mounting a legal defense against a liberal DA/State may bankrupt me and I may end up behind bars; but I’d still be breathing, vertical and above room temperature- which means I’d still be a father and a husband- the two most important things for me.
I can recover from anything but being dead.
With that said, you have to read the situation and react accordingly. Be quick, thorough and hope to be finished and gun holstered when the Calvary arrives.
My training has always been centered around getting the job done and finding a form of concealment ASAP, getting in the phone to 911 and being the least threatening I can possibly be while still maintaining a defense if needed.
It’s a crap shoot and whatever is going to happen will happen given the specific scenario and reactions will be what they are.
My goal is definitely to NOT hold someone at gun point and wait, that’s a bad recipe for many reasons and a lot can go sideways.
There needs to be greater protections for CCW’ers and citizens in defensive situations, we get the short end of the stick and risk a lot to be constantly vilified by the media and held to a legal standard that changes the way we may or may not help people in tough situations.
I agree, they need to start prosecuting cops for bad shoots like this. People were yelling, hes security. He had security written on him. These cops need to be charged with murder, if this is all true. Any joe blow civilian would be. I'm all for cops doing their legal constitutional job. But they need to be prosecuted when they **** up this bad
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morbidbattlecry
11-19-18, 09:45
It's been said here before but unfortunately the police believe gun=bad guy. Their only solution is to shoot and since there is a gun there is no accountability for the officer. If, as an armed citizen, you have to engage a bad guy then shoot until the threat is stopped or runs off and then re- holster quickly. If you have a gun in your hand when the police arrive you are a dead man.
Question for a current police officer - does anyone still train on the FATS simulator? We had to go through it a couple of times a year and there were tons of shoot/no shoot scenarios when encountering armed, plainclothes people.
I agree. I feel that people are amped up with shooting classes that then forget about the whole target identification thing. I've heard Larry Vickers say time and time again you are accountable for every bullet that gets fired. But it doesn't feel like it for some people.
Right now, there's conflicting reports. Police say he was wearing all black without any security markings and was repeatedly directed to drop the gun and didn't, and was shot. Right now, it sounds tragic, but lawful.
"The Illinois State Police Public Integrity Task Force is investigating the officer-involved shooting. The agency said in a statement late Tuesday that witnesses they've interviewed also heard the officer give Roberson "multiple verbal commands to drop the gun and get on the ground before ultimately discharging his weapon and striking the subject."
The agency added that Roberson was wearing plain black clothing "with no markings readily identifying him as a security guard." (1)
Or, the LEOs trying to cover their butts and cams (if they had them) etc will show they had tunnel vision and missed the signs he was a good guy.
Per usual, best to wait for the facts before concluding it was a bad shoot.
(1) https://www.usatoday.com/news/
Doc Safari
11-19-18, 10:32
Although it's a given you only hear about the bad shoots in the media, these incidents are becoming all-too common. I suspect there is a deep deficit in either cop training or indoctrination that is making these shoots occur way too frequently. Someone needs to completely rethink when it is appropriate for a cop to fire.
And I'm sorry, but if that gets more police killed, they have assumed the risk by wearing the badge. Just like we have a presumption of innocence in this country that allows perps to walk free on occasion, I think we need a no-shoot presumption.
eightmillimeter
11-19-18, 10:47
Right now, there's conflicting reports. Police say he was wearing all black without any security markings and was repeatedly directed to drop the gun and didn't, and was shot. Right now, it sounds tragic, but lawful.
"The Illinois State Police Public Integrity Task Force is investigating the officer-involved shooting. The agency said in a statement late Tuesday that witnesses they've interviewed also heard the officer give Roberson "multiple verbal commands to drop the gun and get on the ground before ultimately discharging his weapon and striking the subject."
The agency added that Roberson was wearing plain black clothing "with no markings readily identifying him as a security guard." (1)
Or, the LEOs trying to cover their butts and cams (if they had them) etc will show they had tunnel vision and missed the signs he was a good guy.
Per usual, best to wait for the facts before concluding it was a bad shoot.
(1) https://www.usatoday.com/news/
I was going to post something similar. Obeying police commands in these situations is a much better idea than trying to explain anything.
To everyone acting like this is some kind of epidemic, you all need to realize that officers are killed in friendly fire much more often than anything like this scenario.
I feel terrible for the security guard, but he should have just ended the threat by any means so he could move on to evacuation and/or casualty care safely. Attempting to effect some kind of what is essentially nothing more than a citizens arrest while disobeying police commands to drop a firearm while wearing black clothing had foreseeable tragic results. Even LE struggles with how to effectively ID themselves to other LE in active shooter situations when usually everyone and their brother responds not just uniforms from a single jurisdiction.
I was going to post something similar. Obeying police commands in these situations is a much better idea than trying to explain anything.
To everyone acting like this is some kind of epidemic, you all need to realize that officers are killed in friendly fire much more often than anything like this scenario.
I feel terrible for the security guard, but he should have just ended the threat by any means so he could move on to evacuation and/or casualty care safely. Attempting to effect some kind of what is essentially nothing more than a citizens arrest while disobeying police commands to drop a firearm while wearing black clothing had foreseeable tragic results. Even LE struggles with how to effectively ID themselves to other LE in active shooter situations when usually everyone and their brother responds not just uniforms from a single jurisdiction.
If was wearing all black, didn't have obvious security labelled, and didn't respond to commands to put the gun down, he's gonna get shot. Tragic and chitty yes, but of those details are true, then a legal shoot and something not really that difficult to understand.
I was going to post something similar. Obeying police commands in these situations is a much better idea than trying to explain anything.
To everyone acting like this is some kind of epidemic, you all need to realize that officers are killed in friendly fire much more often than anything like this scenario.
I feel terrible for the security guard, but he should have just ended the threat by any means so he could move on to evacuation and/or casualty care safely. Attempting to effect some kind of what is essentially nothing more than a citizens arrest while disobeying police commands to drop a firearm while wearing black clothing had foreseeable tragic results. Even LE struggles with how to effectively ID themselves to other LE in active shooter situations when usually everyone and their brother responds not just uniforms from a single jurisdiction.
Just to keep the "flip side" in mind. Security guards are not LE so grabbing an active shooter is well above and beyond what they are trained for. We have to grant them some "holy shit what do I do now?" consideration and accept that they might not be processing information as well as they should have, so let's not completely fault the security guard who seems to have stepped up to try and save lives even though he doesn't really have the training for that kind of thing.
Unlike the BSO officer who did NOTHING during the Parkland School shooting, at least this guy did something.
I also understand it's a damned if you do / damned if you don't scenario when making contact with an armed individual at an active shooting. Is he a legit security guard trying to save the day or is he actually the shooter who bought some official looking security guard crap off ebay to fool first responders? I understand the whole "non compliance with officer orders can get you shot" point of view, but who knows if the guy even actually heard them. He might have been screaming "I have the shooter" the entire time and that is the only thing his brain would process at the moment.
Again, it's virtually a "can't win" situation for most involved and few people have the experience to be cool, calm and collected AFTER the shooting has already started. Even fewer have the training to even tell them basic "post shooting" good ideas. As noted plain clothes officers and off duty responders often get shot in these situations as well.
I was going to post something similar. Obeying police commands in these situations is a much better idea than trying to explain anything.
To everyone acting like this is some kind of epidemic, you all need to realize that officers are killed in friendly fire much more often than anything like this scenario.
I feel terrible for the security guard, but he should have just ended the threat by any means so he could move on to evacuation and/or casualty care safely. Attempting to effect some kind of what is essentially nothing more than a citizens arrest while disobeying police commands to drop a firearm while wearing black clothing had foreseeable tragic results. Even LE struggles with how to effectively ID themselves to other LE in active shooter situations when usually everyone and their brother responds not just uniforms from a single jurisdiction.
Which is why I said that, as a non-uniformed citizen it is best to not have a gun in your hand when the police arrive. I have seen practicing giving verbal commands in training. It goes something like this: Drop the gun! Bam bam bam bam. Why? Because police don't want to get shot either. But it doesn't relieve them of the responsibility of shooting the right person.
Government employee unions need to be banned
LowSpeed_HighDrag
11-25-18, 21:45
M4C is fast becoming the comments section of HuffPo.
Sometimes your nonsense gets old. Do you know the statutory definition of murder in most states?
So is the officer being charged with murder?
If was wearing all black, didn't have obvious security labelled, and didn't respond to commands to put the gun down, he's gonna get shot. Tragic and chitty yes, but of those details are true, then a legal shoot and something not really that difficult to understand.
While the shooting is tragic, something like this occurring in the bar where it occurred comes as no surprise. If you want to get shot by another bar patron, Manny's Blue Room Lounge in Robbins, Illinois would be the place to go. Robbins Police Department responds to Manny's Blue Room Lounge on a regular basis, but the Chief of Police is ducking the issue when asked by the media. Midlothian Police Department has responded to the bar after requests for assistance by Robbins PD multiple times.
In that part of the Chicago area police don't normally complete a written report if they assist another agency with simply removing a loud drunk from a bar or showing up when there is a large crowd; they are just too busy. Midlothian PD documented response to 32 serious calls for assistance at the bar over the past ten years according to media reports. I would wager the number is higher.
It doesn't matter who you are or how you are dressed. Example: If you are a plains clothes officer and uniform officers responding to the scene don't have radio contact with you, you had better have your weapon holstered when they enter the building or lay the weapon down when given the order. If you are holding a weapon on an armed subject who is not following verbal commands, it can be a dicey situation for the plain clothes officer when uniforms arrive.
If the police tell me to lay down my weapon, I am going to follow their instructions.
All I will say is that sworn, unsworn, whatever...
The moment you intervene with a firearm in any capacity; you are rolling the dice.
It’s a hell of a thing. And horrible things do, and shall continue to, happen to good people.
You can train, know all the laws, do everything you are “supposed” to do and still die.
I was told that once and the way it was said in such a pointed, direct, and almost disaffected manner stuck with me.
Nobody said it would be easy....
All I will say is that sworn, unsworn, whatever...
The moment you intervene with a firearm in any capacity; you are rolling the dice.
It’s a hell of a thing. And horrible things do, and shall continue to, happen to good people.
You can train, know all the laws, do everything you are “supposed” to do and still die.
I was told that once and the way it was said in such a pointed, direct, and almost disaffected manner stuck with me.
Nobody said it would be easy....
Was told something very similar that stuck with me..."Everything you do can get you killed, including nothing."
titsonritz
11-26-18, 20:39
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=575xM6Uljw4
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