View Full Version : Big bore revolver need
I keep thinking I "need" well more of want a 460sw or 500. I was thinking the 460 so I can load 454 and 45lc in it. What's everyone's opinion? I do go into grizz bear country, but not regularly. This is more of a desire than a need.
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I shoot 44 Mag full house loads regularly in my various revolvers. Doesn't bother me a bit, I'm not recoil sensitive.
Personally, having shot the 460 on several occasions, it is just too much for a pistol. It literally makes my teeth hurt after shooting and is THE ONLY unpleasant experience I've had shooting.
My buddy, who owned it, thought the same and sold it at a loss.
I'm a firm believer that 44 Mag is as much as you need or really want to shoot.
I haven't shot a 500 before, so I can't speak to that model.
gunnerblue
11-21-18, 10:50
I had a .460V (5” bbl) for awhile purchased with bear protection in mind. I could not get it to shoot accurately with heavy bullets at the full velocity potential of the case. At heavy .45 Colt velocities it was quite accurate but I wasn’t interested in an overweight .45 Colt so I sold it. The .460 was designed around 200 gr bullets at extremely high velocities as a long-range handgun hunting round and that’s where I think it belongs.
The .500 S&W is much better suited as a backup, IMHO. I’ve had a 6 1/2” bbl model and still have the 5” version. I’ve also shot the 4” and 8 3/8” models. The 4” and 5” (and the 2 3/4”, I suppose) are definitely a lot of gun, probably too much for regular carry. I’ve been carrying my 5” for the last few years when backpacking but I’m about to start on a Redhawk .500 Linebaugh build to save a few ounces.
If you end up grabbing either, I’d recommend Jordan Trooper stocks to better handle recoil.
Well. IMHO, a full house .44 Mag with hard cast lead will take care of just about any critter in North America. A full house 10mm with hard cast lead would be my second choice.
I have a small frame. F-That chit. If someone GAVE ME a 454 or 500 Mag... I’d sell it the next day and buy a .44 Mag mountain gun.
I'm with Det-Sog. I have a 686 that I normally load midrange target loads for. Occasionally I'll load a full house .357 mag load (158 at 1400 fps).
More recently I got a 629. I've never loaded a full house load for it, just midrange target loads.
If someone gave me a 454 or a 500, I'd be tempted to get a set of dies and load -- you guessed it -- midrange target loads, but what would that do that the .44 mag wouldn't, for me? I'd trade it off.
To me, the ultra magnums have four purposes:
1. Hunting (I don't hunt; maybe there is an advantage over .44)
2. Silhouette and other types of specialized target shooting (advantage over .44?)
3. Protection against brown/ polar bears (may well be legit, if one escapes from a TX zoo)
4. Machismo*
My most recent purchase was a Smith M&P in 9mm. Much more useful in the big city. Although, if you're getting jacked at a gas station, and you reach under your suit-coat and pull out a Smith & Wesson .500 Magnum with a 8 3/8" barrel, it's be worth it to see the faces of the jackboys.
__________________________
*Much the same as the Power-Stroke diesel F250 trucks you see on the freeway, travelling on their huge knobby tires from suburbia to downtown parking garages and back again, with nary a speck of mud or dirt on them, the bed immaculate.
I've shot the 8" 500 before, but it was factory load, not full house hand loads. No matter what I buy, it would be hand loaded for. I have all but zero use for a big bore revolver, but have always wanted one.
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There's also the consideration of size/weight with a .460/.500 S&W.
I have optic equipped bolt guns that don't weigh a lot more than the .460/.500's.
I'm in complete agreement on the .4X "Mountain Gun" as a winner for packing/hunting. I have a few of them and the .45 Colt, shooting +P is a standout.
Recoil seems gentler than .44 mag. with ammo that does the same thing.
Hard to beat a Keith type SWC/Wide Flat Nose Gas Check, long/heavy for caliber .41/.44/.45 cast bullet for penetration and "slap" on target.
I keep forgetting about the tried and true .45 Colt. That’s a winner too. I just can’t justify another caliber to support.
While I love my custom 629 V-comp, I sure want to add a .44 Mag “mountain gun” to the collection some day.
My next grail is a 4” early 80s 686 .357, but the .44 MG may now trump that. I can always shoot weak .44 Mag or 44 special at the range. Decisions...
Happy Thanksgiving Y’all!
I also prefer .45 Colt as I reload, and in a suitable revolver, like a Ruger Super Blackhawk or similar can push it to magnum velocities. It is a real thumper. Even is a regular Single Action Army frame the standard load is pretty impressive. 250 grain slug at 900 - 950 FPS. You can do much better with a Blackhawk, or Redhawk.
Ive shot 500's on several occassions and its pretty obnoxious but everybody is different. I got on a Barrel 50 pretty hard this last week, my back still hurts. Gotta get straight behind it. Might want to shoot one first.
PB
I'm a big fan of the Ruger Alaskan in .454. You can go .45 Colt light/cowboy, .45 Colt heavy, of even .454 Casull.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v470/Dump1567/IMG_2296_zps73c08638.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Dump1567/media/IMG_2296_zps73c08638.jpg.html)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v470/Dump1567/IMG_2297_zps4e26ae55.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Dump1567/media/IMG_2297_zps4e26ae55.jpg.html)
Think about it some more before you potentially waste money better spent on something else. A buddy has a .500 mag and I fired it exactly twice and handed it back and told him "No thanks". Coincidentally, Nicholas Irving appears on a Demolition Ranch vid and does the same thing and offers Matt the same opinion. If I were camping bear country and about to become converted into bear shit, I would enthusiastically and thankfully empty it into said bear's melon, otherwise, I see no use for it other than to have the biggest pistol round. With, or without a comp, it's gonna feel like someone smacked you in the palm with a 9 lb mallet.
https://i997.photobucket.com/albums/af93/Joelski144/ARs%20and%20Pistols/Friends%20guns/20170910_164802_zpskd7ks2ew.jpg~original
At the same gun show where I saw a 8 3/8 inch 500, I saw a snubbie Alaskan like the one above in .454.
Recoil city!
Not a recoil fan, but fired a couple of rounds of .500 on a cloudy day and whether a person minds recoil or not I wouldn't think many people's eyes would recover from the flash fast enough in low light for a follow up shot.
Another vote that the weight is close to a rifle.
Coal Dragger
11-22-18, 17:24
Currently my only revolver is a .454 Casull made by Freedom Arms. For big bores the single action style grip frame is more comfortable than a DA gun is going to be, and part of the reason I wanted the FA to begin with. Mine is a premier grade with a 6” barrel, so it fits in any holster made for a Ruger Super Blackhawk that I’ve found, and is sized right to actually carry around.
Handloading makes all the difference in the world for enjoying big bore handguns. Shooting a steady diet of full house .454 Casull is not fun, nor particularly productive from a proficiency standpoint. Should you shoot full power ammo for practice? Yes, so you maintain skill at dealing with the recoil. Should you practice the majority of the time with full power ammo? Absolutely not, you’re going to wreck your elbows, wrists, and fingers doing that on a regular basis.
Fortunately I reload, so tailoring ammo to my own gun and purpose is easy, big bore revolvers are also really easy to load for once you figure out how to apply a sufficient crimp on full power ammo. My FA is not particularly sensitive to loads or bullet weights, and shoots everything pretty well to spectacularly well. 300gr-330gr hard cast lead bullets at around 900-1000fps are fun to shoot, accurate, and don’t cost a fortune to load. Stepping down to a 250gr lead bullet at similar velocities is even cheaper and finding bulk cast bullets is a cinch. I will note that bullets above 360gr are not as consistent in my revolver, I suspect the barrel twist rate is not quite fast enough for the 395gr pills I last tried. If you want 400gr bullets I suggest a .475 or one of the .500’s.
One advantage the single action also has over the DA in a big bore .45 caliber is the ability to easily convert to .45 ACP with an auxiliary cylinder. I sent my FA back to the factory and had a .45 ACP cylinder made, and acquired some appropriate height front sights at the same time. I have heard that Ruger makes the Redhawk capable of taking moon clips now for .45 ACP, but reviews I have seen the .45 ACP was not accurate at all from the .45 Colt cylinder. My FA cylinder in .45 ACP is a line bored, hand fitted, work of art that locks up like a bank vault just like the primary cylinder. With an RMR mounted on top I’ve had .45 ACP reloads easily cut one ragged hole groups at 50 yards from the bench. Recoil feels like shooting a .38 with wadcutters. Plus if you have ammo that doesn’t like to work right in your .45 auto, the .45 ACP auxiliary cylinder is one hell of a garbage disposal.
^^
“Handloading makes all the difference in the world for enjoying big bore handguns.”
Truth.
Joleski, the loads you shot out of the 500, were they full house hand loads? It also appears that 500 doesn't have a break.
The 6" look like they would be easier to control, because they have the brake and more weight under the barrel all the way out to the muzzle. Any truth to that?
I've handled the 460s in ruger and sw, not shot them, the sw fit my hand better just handling them in the store.
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I'm a big fan of the Ruger Alaskan in .454. You can go .45 Colt light/cowboy, .45 Colt heavy, of even .454 Casull.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v470/Dump1567/IMG_2296_zps73c08638.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Dump1567/media/IMG_2296_zps73c08638.jpg.html)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v470/Dump1567/IMG_2297_zps4e26ae55.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Dump1567/media/IMG_2297_zps4e26ae55.jpg.html)That's a pretty nice looking setup. Is it punishing to shoot with that short barrel?
Everything I shoot I load for. So that'll help mitigate cost and I can lighten just using loads up
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I too reload for everything I shoot and agree that hand loading for big bores is a must.
Joleski, the loads you shot out of the 500, were they full house hand loads? It also appears that 500 doesn't have a break.
Smith has different brake designs.
One is a simple muzzle cap with slot(s) in the top (believe that is shown in Joelskis photo above).
https://snwcdnprod.azureedge.net/sites/default/files/styles/product_main/public/firearms/images/163500_02_lg_1.jpg?itok=B0SkEq4y
Another is a more elaborately machined insert that fits into a recess in the end of the barrel.
https://snwcdnprod.azureedge.net/sites/default/files/styles/product_main/public/firearms/images/163504_02_lg_1.jpg?itok=xP1G015-
They also have a more traditionally constructed brake:
https://snwcdnprod.azureedge.net/sites/default/files/styles/product_main/public/firearms/images/170299_02_lg_0.jpg?itok=xKUs0RIC
I really have to wonder if a .460 with full loads is better protection against a bear than a cartridge that can be practiced with more often and fired more quickly. Six .460 misses isn't going to save you.
I really have to wonder if a .460 with full loads is better protection against a bear than a cartridge that can be practiced with more often and fired more quickly. Six .460 misses isn't going to save you.
THIS... https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?198678-Bear-defense-pistols-practical-shooting-test&highlight=glock+20
Is why a Glock 20 is now my main woods walking gun if I go somewhere with (grizzly) bears. Just for the reason that you mention. Anything else, I’m happy with a big six shooter or even 15+ rounds of 9mm. Thanks Alaskapopo.
An actual Alaska resident on one forum wanted to got with 10mm but realized that there really isn't any ammunition in 10mm that would be effective on bear. He ended up with a USP loaded with .45 Super cartridges that did have the right kind of hard cast bullet for bear.
^^^ He needs to look at that Underwood hard cast 220 Gr 10mm. To each their own. Oh well, I just go to Montana, not Alaska.
Edited. The author of the post that I linked IS an Alaska resident and I’d argue a true SME on this subject. If 10mm is good enough for him...
^^^ He needs to look at that Underwood hard cast 220 Gr 10mm. To each their own. Oh well, I just go to Montana, not Alaska.
Edited. The author of the post that I linked IS an Alaska resident and I’d argue a true SME on this subject. If 10mm is good enough for him...
The issue appears to be that the hard cast loads weren't reliable in a Glock:
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?13081-S-amp-W-1076
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?16503-HK-USP-45-field-pistol
This guy is a super high volume shooter and well respected on Pistol-forum. If the fix for the Glock was simple, I think he would have found it. He tried many commercial loads, different spring systems (including Gen 4) and even Barsto barrels. He's not the only one down on 10mm Glocks with heavy loads - that's not what they're built for and most boutique ammo companies don't do enough testing.
I really have to wonder if a .460 with full loads is better protection against a bear than a cartridge that can be practiced with more often and fired more quickly. Six .460 misses isn't going to save you.
I apply the same logic to the big city, where Gangstas are a bigger problem than brown bears.
That's why I ditched the compact .45ACP 1911 in favor of the M&P 9mm.
The issue appears to be that the hard cast loads weren't reliable in a Glock: If the fix for the Glock was simple, I think he would have found it.
It is simple, all be it not cheap. I put a Bar-Sto bbl in it and it's a laser now. Deathly accurate with a good lock-up, and will throw out full house hard cast lead like there's no tomorrow. From what I understand, the stock Glock bbls with their geometric rifling pattern are not good for hardcast. You need an old school rifled bbl in there or hardcast can tumble and keyhole.
gunnerblue
11-23-18, 13:54
Factory Glock barrels with polygonal rifling can cause lead to be stripped off and deposited inside the barrel causing obstruction and/or pressure spikes. Theoretically, a cast bullet of an exactly correct hardness could alleviate this issue but with aftermarket conventionally-rifles barrels why bother?
Lots of good advice here on the S&W Mountain Gun series- especially in a handloaded .45 Colt. John Linebaugh has a great article on his website as to why a heavy .45 Colt is superior to a comparable .44 Magum.
gunnerblue
11-23-18, 13:57
Factory Glock barrels with polygonal rifling can cause lead to be stripped off and deposited inside the barrel causing obstruction and/or pressure spikes. Theoretically, a cast bullet of an exactly correct hardness could alleviate this issue but with aftermarket conventionally-rifles barrels why bother?
Lots of good advice here on the S&W Mountain Gun series- especially in a handloaded .45 Colt. John Linebaugh has a great article on his website as to why a heavy .45 Colt is superior to a comparable .44 Magum.
It is simple, all be it not cheap. I put a Bar-Sto bbl in it and it's a laser now. Deathly accurate with a good lock-up, and will throw out full house hard cast lead like there's no tomorrow. From what I understand, the stock Glock bbls with their geometric rifling pattern are not good for hardcast. You need an old school rifled bbl in there or hardcast can tumble and keyhole.
Did you read the linked threads?
He tried Barsto barrels, and the issue was never leading. The issue is feed reliability due to the high slide velocity. All the guns tended to jam at half mag capacity. Not every time, but too often to rely upon - 75% reliable. Not much point in carrying a gun that fails 1 in 4 mags.
Well. I’ve never had a malfunction in my G20. Perhaps I should consider using 200 gr fmj as linked in the article I referenced. Perhaps I’ve been lucky.
Then Again, I’m only in grizzly territory 2-3 weeks a year on vacation. I am no SME nor do I play one on TV.
Well. I’ve never had a malfunction in my G20. Perhaps I should consider using 200 gr fmj as linked in the article I referenced. Perhaps I’ve been lucky.
Then Again, I’m only in grizzly territory 2-3 weeks a year on vacation. I am no SME nor do I play one on TV.
I'm in Thug territory 52 weeks a year. I pack a hi cap nine.
Combat_Diver
11-23-18, 22:02
I've fired a friends from church, Smith .460 8.375" with .454 and .460 loads. I had no issues and DA with full .454 rapid fire. My main magnum guns are .41 Mags which I hunt with. I've even carried my .41 Smith 58 in Alaska a few times woods roaming loaded with a home cast 270gr WFN. The .460 been put on my list of wants. For factory ammo you have .45 Schofield, .45 Colt, .454 and .460. I reload, cast and hunt with a handgun so no down issues for me.
CD
I've had a Super Blackhawk Bisley in 454 Casull for a bit now and love it. I mostly shoot 45LC and milder 454 loads out of it mostly. Even shooting full power 454 isn't too bad with the Bisley grip. I bought it to have some fun shooting hogs with it and now I even carry it for deer hunting. Last year I shot a 300lb black bear with 45LC HSM Bear Load 325gr +P loads and he died right where I shot him. Didn't budge.
Performance on game with +P .45 Colt and good cast bullets is about like a 30/06.
This with proper bullet placement and around 50 yds. IME.
I have a Ruger GP-100 3-inch .44 Special I really enjoy.
Installed Wolff Gunsprings' slightly lighter trigger return and hammer springs and did a little polishing. It's pretty nice!
The hot loads from Underwood for woods carry are a 255 gr "Keith" style very wide meplat hard-cast SWC at about 950 fps (IIRC) from the 3-inch barrel. They also make the GP100 .44 in 4 and 5 inch barrels.
I got a nice Falco leather ISWB holster for it and carried it around my daily travels for SD to break it in. (with Georgia Arms 200 gr Gold Dots @850 fps)
I mostly have .44 Russian "cowboy" style ammo for it because it's more accurate than the .44 Specal "cowboy" loads I've tried and I like the way the shorter casings eject. I put about 100 rnds through it every time it comes out. Yea, it's expensive to shoot! It's also fun! And rewarding when I shoot it well...
Firing the hot .44 Specials isn't far from a .44 magnum experience. The Gp100 .44 is a hell of a lot more pleasant to carry than would be a .454-sized or bigger gun. If I recall it weighs about 40 oz.
A modern .44 spl gun makes a great handloading platform. You should get into it.
I'm pretty sure it's some sort of a semi-custom production round. It seemed to be insanely expensive (to my sense of cost) at something like $8/round.
Joleski, the loads you shot out of the 500, were they full house hand loads? It also appears that 500 doesn't have a break.
The 6" look like they would be easier to control, because they have the brake and more weight under the barrel all the way out to the muzzle. Any truth to that?
I've handled the 460s in ruger and sw, not shot them, the sw fit my hand better just handling them in the store.
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A modern .44 spl gun makes a great handloading platform. You should get into it.
Yea, we've discussed that. On some level I want to. But reloading equipment takes up space and sounds incredibly boring and slightly dangerous.
So until I want to dedicate myself to it I'll be paying $20-$27 / 50 rounds.
I'm pretty sure it's some sort of a semi-custom production round. It seemed to be insanely expensive (to my sense of cost) at something like $8/round.Ok, then I am guessing they're full house rounds then. Most mass produced we shot out of my buddies were pretty mild. But no buffalo bore etc. I'd strictly hand load for it.
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I keep thinking I "need" well more of want a 460sw or 500. I was thinking the 460 so I can load 454 and 45lc in it. What's everyone's opinion? I do go into grizz bear country, but not regularly. This is more of a desire than a need.
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I have magnum revolvers from 357 up to the 500.
I like shooting longer distances with revolvers. I planned to hunt with my 460. But for now, I’ve been carrying my 7mm-08.
If you want to get proficient, you’ll need deep pockets or start reloading.
Shooting these calibers are not cheap.
The 500 has a wide range of grain weights from high 200s to 700 grains. That is a wide range, plus you can shoot 500 special up to the magnum.
Of all guns, I Reload the 500 and the 454 Casull, the most of the big bore. I’ll shoot 50 rounds of 454 Casull and 35 rounds of 500 Magnums.
The 460 has the capability to shoot 45 Colt, 454 Casull and the 460 magnum. Again, these have a decent range of grain weights.
The above calibers usually have a 5 round capacity.
It is why I like to carry my Ruger Alaskan 454 Casull, more often. I shoot 50 rounds of full power rounds without issues. I’ve also practiced with 360 grain Buffalo Bore 454 loads. I’m very accurate with it, and I can shoot quickly.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181127/da1de347dc66807effd2698d587b4fcb.jpg
I have since sold off my Ruger GP100s, for other interests.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181127/fec01c4743103b5d6e54088bc5c52853.jpg
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If your looking for a field companion/packing pistol look at something comfortable to carry, i.e. 4.5"-5.5". X frames and super redhawks are too heavy and bulky to carry and will spend more time on the truck seat, quad gas tank or your day pack. I've got all the big bore calibers just about and looking at commisioning my last, a bisley vaquero 4 5/8-5 1/2" in either 480/475 or 500LB. The 480 will reach my goal of a 400 @ 1150-1200, stainless with micarta grips and fixed sights, a field style duty gun. Right now the closest I have to this is a FA 83 4 3/4 in 454 and 45acp. The S&W 329 is a peach but the stainless flame cut protection insert on the top of the frame was the weak point needing replacement in the 3-500 rd intervals which restricted recreational shooting.
Never mind.. this should remain a revolver thread..
FirstBsure
12-10-18, 18:26
CA Bulldog .44 Special
S&W 69 .44 Magnum
Ruger Redhawk .44 Magnum
S&W 625-8 JM .45 ACP
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