View Full Version : Guide killed by grizzly, carried condition 3
If you need more reason than this to never carry condition 3, I don't know what to tell you. A pistol with an empty chamber is only a hammer, and glocks make a piss poor hammer.
https://www.guns.com/news/2018/11/27/fatal-wyoming-bear-attack-no-round-in-the-chamber-on-handgun
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Travelingchild
11-28-18, 19:11
Happened where I live, Didn't know him personally but interacted with his Blue Sky Restoration Business on occasion.
After this happen, The JH Gun Range had an upsurge in people bringing out large caliber revolvers and such.
Most after a box of 44mag or a cylinder or 2 of 454 casull called it good an thought they were good to go.
As a range officer I suggested they try it from the draw wearing whatever clothing and backpacks they would have on.
Most looked at me like I was from another planet.
I have a friend that has built a charging bear target with a realistic closing speed. It's an eye opener to try and clear a chest holster while wearing a backpack when you know he's launched it. Imagine trying that without any warning.
I'd be willing to be complacency killed him as much as anything. When you've walked past 100 grizzlies without incident you start to think you are somehow special and that the people who get attacked "must have done something wrong."
Not everyone has the mindset that says "Nothing bad has happened for a hundred incidents but TODAY it will probably all go wrong and for no particular reason at all."
People who actively train for bear attacks, like the individual AKDoug mentioned, are few and far between. Most people simply get complacent and over confident in their ability and response time. Even people who hunt and kill grizzlies sometimes assume they will always have control of any situation.
Travelingchild
11-28-18, 21:02
Had something similar, a stuffed bear on a gravity pulley system..
Back to bear at buzzer , bear was released (charging) had to turn around and get a shot off..
Sounds like a bad situation all around. A little more detail here (and as Steyr said, plenty of evidence of complacency):
https://www.ammoland.com/2018/09/update-fatal-grizzly-bear-attack-on-mark-uptain-bear-spray-failure-throwing-gloc/
As the bear first hit Uptain, who carried bear spray in a hip-slung holster, Chubon went for a Glock that his guide had left with their gear a few yards uphill. For some reason, he could not get the handgun to fire. When the female grizzly diverted her attention away from Uptain and toward the Floridian, he tossed the pistol to his guide. Evidently, it didn’t make it to Uptain, who was a lifelong elk hunter, small-business owner and family man.
Within moments, the bear turned back toward Uptain. Chubon, whose leg, chest and arms were lacerated by the bruin, ran for his life. His last view of Uptain, which he relayed to investigators, was of the guide on his feet trying to fight off the sow
The gun was carried in a shoulder holster, but Uptain had taken it off and set it aside to help the hunter dress out the elk carcass. He still had bear spray on him, but wasn't able to deploy it until after the bear was on him. The hunter had no firearm (and apparently no familiarity with Uptain's glock), even though they were there to finish dressing and pack out an elk killed the previous day.
Uptain survived the first attack (though by then the hunter, Chubon was already gone) and at some point was able to hike 50ft up a hillside before being mauled a second time, killing him. Neither the guide nor the hunter had GPS emergency beacons (or a sat phone), so the wounded hunter had to hike to their horses and then ride up a ridge to call for help with his cell phone.
A tragedy for Uptain's family no matter how you cut it.
RetroRevolver77
11-28-18, 22:08
deleted
Travelingchild
11-28-18, 22:12
The original Breaking story..Local
https://www.jhnewsandguide.com/the_hole_scroll/article_8f2ed9ed-8942-522d-9000-d294eb622dfa.html
I've worked with a few brown bears. They are no joke. Predators to their core. Very large predators. They are about the only animal that truly scares me. You can't outrun them, you can't out swim or out dive them, you can't hide in a car or cabin because they can simply tear it open if they want to, they move so damn fast and they can be so sneaky, you'd be lucky to even get a shot off, much less a hit... You might be able to climb a tree to get away from one, but it would have to be a very large tree and you'd have to go pretty high, pretty quickly, which isn't likely because you won't even know they are there until its too late. Frankly, I'm surprised this doesn't happen more often.
Condolences to the man's family. So sad.
No, no and no. You don't traverse rural grizzly bear country with a 10mm Glock (with no round in the pipe) and a client with a bow and arrow. Our biggest predators in this part of New Mexico are the black bear and mountain lion, and we see quite a few of the latter. At an absolute minimum when I'm after a big cat is my JM Marlin Guide Gun in 45-70, or Winchester 94 in 30-30, plus a Ruger GP100 in .357 loaded with Buffalo Bore 180 grain bullets. I have other options but this is just one, and the lever action will always have a round in the chamber.
What a shame but I guess you can get too comfortable in your surroundings.
Sounds like a bad situation all around. A little more detail here (and as Steyr said, plenty of evidence of complacency):
https://www.ammoland.com/2018/09/update-fatal-grizzly-bear-attack-on-mark-uptain-bear-spray-failure-throwing-gloc/
The gun was carried in a shoulder holster, but Uptain had taken it off and set it aside to help the hunter dress out the elk carcass. He still had bear spray on him, but wasn't able to deploy it until after the bear was on him. The hunter had no firearm (and apparently no familiarity with Uptain's glock), even though they were there to finish dressing and pack out an elk killed the previous day.
Uptain survived the first attack (though by then the hunter, Chubon was already gone) and at some point was able to hike 50ft up a hillside before being mauled a second time, killing him. Neither the guide nor the hunter had GPS emergency beacons (or a sat phone), so the wounded hunter had to hike to their horses and then ride up a ridge to call for help with his cell phone.
A tragedy for Uptain's family no matter how you cut it.
That really sucks. But when you are creating what is essentially a bear buffet, someone should have been on over watch with no less than a .308, preferably a high capacity semi auto. This was completely preventable.
Initially I assumed somebody got ambushed by an unseen bear and simply didn't have time to draw, rack and shoot. This is even worse, wouldn't have mattered if there was one in the chamber or not. I also think that handguns really aren't suitable for bear country, especially if you are covered in elk blood.
That really sucks. But when you are creating what is essentially a bear buffet, someone should have been on over watch with no less than a .308, preferably a high capacity semi auto. This was completely preventable.
Initially I assumed somebody got ambushed by an unseen bear and simply didn't have time to draw, rack and shoot. This is even worse, wouldn't have mattered if there was one in the chamber or not. I also think that handguns really aren't suitable for bear country, especially if you are covered in elk blood.An ar or 308 isn't the answer to everything. When you're a hammer, every problem starts to look like a nail.
He should have not had an empty chamber should not have put his weapon down. Yes, mistakes were made, but not having a designated marksman platoon securing a perimeter isn't one of them. I don't archery hunt, so not familiar with the laws, but if I remember right, you can't have a rifle with you while bow hunting. So all of that is out there window.
Good situational awareness, not being complacent, keeping the gun handy and condition 1 would have helped.
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An ar or 308 isn't the answer to everything. When you're a hammer, every problem starts to look like a nail.
He should have not had an empty chamber should not have put his weapon down. Yes, mistakes were made, but not having a designated marksman platoon securing a perimeter isn't one of them. I don't archery hunt, so not familiar with the laws, but if I remember right, you can't have a rifle with you while bow hunting. So all of that is out there window.
Good situational awareness, not being complacent, keeping the gun handy and condition 1 would have helped.
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Not sure I want to trust my survival to a 10mm Glock when I'm covered in Elk blood. Situational awareness is no guarantee either, wouldn't be the first time a bear blindsided somebody with less than 10 feet of warning.
If the laws for bow hunting state you can't have a rifle, then those are some really stupid laws and you'll never catch me bow hunting with such absurd restrictions.
I also disagree with needing a marksman securing the perimeter. I wouldn't advocate it for everywhere but certain places starting with "A" such as Africa or Alaska where things have been known to hunt humans, you better believe it should be SOP.
And bears aren't the only thing. One time my father and a buddy were hunting in Canada (pretty sure it was bear) in the late 70s and a couple days into the hunt they realized it wasn't a careless hunter who had taken two shots at them but somebody who was actually trying to kill them. Needless to say it was a long week for them and it would be years before I got the real story.
But suffice to say, I generally don't screw around in the woods with just a handgun or a bow. Also when it comes to lions and tigers and bears, I don't assume it will be "only one at a time" so I generally try to cheat in my favor as much as possible. But mostly I just try to avoid the lions, tigers and bears as much as possible and there are few reasons for me to be in their neighborhood.
I've worked with a few brown bears. They are no joke. Predators to their core. Very large predators. They are about the only animal that truly scares me. You can't outrun them, you can't out swim or out dive them, you can't hide in a car or cabin because they can simply tear it open if they want to, they move so damn fast and they can be so sneaky, you'd be lucky to even get a shot off, much less a hit... You might be able to climb a tree to get away from one, but it would have to be a very large tree and you'd have to go pretty high, pretty quickly, which isn't likely because you won't even know they are there until its too late. Frankly, I'm surprised this doesn't happen more often.
Condolences to the man's family. So sad.
This.
I had an Inuit native in my squad at basic training, he lived on Kodiak Island. I asked him what it was like to live around that type of predator. He said, and I quote, “ you live carefully.” He then added with a smile that between salmon and photographers, they were seldom hungry.
gunnerblue
11-29-18, 08:42
Hearsay, I know, but the outfitter that was packing my elk off the mountain this year claimed to have worked with the guide in question over the last few years. He (the packer) told me that the guide had also been concerned over litigation if he were ever forced to kill a bear in self-defense. This is not uncommon thinking among those who live in grizzly country.
We hunt elk every year in areas known to be home to aggressive bears and with a history of bear attacks, especially during archery elk season. Never hunt alone and always have someone standing watch when tending to a kill. If that someone would have a long arm, even better.
That really sucks. But when you are creating what is essentially a bear buffet, someone should have been on over watch with no less than a .308, preferably a high capacity semi auto. This was completely preventable.
Initially I assumed somebody got ambushed by an unseen bear and simply didn't have time to draw, rack and shoot. This is even worse, wouldn't have mattered if there was one in the chamber or not. I also think that handguns really aren't suitable for bear country, especially if you are covered in elk blood.
Agreed. There's no guarantee having someone watching for bear would've prevented the attack, but at the very least it may have been enough to end the attack early and possibly save the guide's life. Bear spray works best if you are aware of a bear's presence early enough to deploy it correctly, and can end a confrontation before a firearm is needed. But in either case (spray or gun) you have to be able to react in time.
An ar or 308 isn't the answer to everything. When you're a hammer, every problem starts to look like a nail.
He should have not had an empty chamber should not have put his weapon down. Yes, mistakes were made, but not having a designated marksman platoon securing a perimeter isn't one of them. I don't archery hunt, so not familiar with the laws, but if I remember right, you can't have a rifle with you while bow hunting. So all of that is out there window.
Good situational awareness, not being complacent, keeping the gun handy and condition 1 would have helped.
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Agreed, for the most part. A bolt gun or big bore lever gun wouldn't have helped any more than the handgun if it have been left yards away with an empty chamber. As for long guns, there is no law against carrying long guns in Wyoming while hunting during archery season (at least partly because of their usefulness for protection against bear and lion).
From the Wyoming Game & Fish Website:
Can I carry a firearm while archery hunting during the archery season? Yes. However, the law does prohibit the use of firearms in taking or finishing off any big or trophy game animals during the special archery season.
The catch is being able to show that you shot the bear in self defense, and not as a trophy.
Not sure I want to trust my survival to a 10mm Glock when I'm covered in Elk blood. Situational awareness is no guarantee either, wouldn't be the first time a bear blindsided somebody with less than 10 feet of warning.
If the laws for bow hunting state you can't have a rifle, then those are some really stupid laws and you'll never catch me bow hunting with such absurd restrictions.
I also disagree with needing a marksman securing the perimeter. I wouldn't advocate it for everywhere but certain places starting with "A" such as Africa or Alaska where things have been known to hunt humans, you better believe it should be SOP.
And bears aren't the only thing. One time my father and a buddy were hunting in Canada (pretty sure it was bear) in the late 70s and a couple days into the hunt they realized it wasn't a careless hunter who had taken two shots at them but somebody who was actually trying to kill them. Needless to say it was a long week for them and it would be years before I got the real story.
But suffice to say, I generally don't screw around in the woods with just a handgun or a bow. Also when it comes to lions and tigers and bears, I don't assume it will be "only one at a time" so I generally try to cheat in my favor as much as possible. But mostly I just try to avoid the lions, tigers and bears as much as possible and there are few reasons for me to be in their neighborhood.
With the Grizzly population having grow to the point that game & fish approved a Grizzly season in Wyoming for the first time since 1974 (though it's currently blocked by a federal judge due to a law suit filed by an environmentalist group), I'd say it wouldn't be unreasonable. Bear numbers are over 600 this year in the Teton area of Wyo, up from 136 in 1975 when they ended hunting. Encounters with humans are way up.
Hearsay, I know, but the outfitter that was packing my elk off the mountain this year claimed to have worked with the guide in question over the last few years. He (the packer) told me that the guide had also been concerned over litigation if he were ever forced to kill a bear in self-defense. This is not uncommon thinking among those who live in grizzly country.
We hunt elk every year in areas known to be home to aggressive bears and with a history of bear attacks, especially during archery elk season. Never hunt alone and always have someone standing watch when tending to a kill. If that someone would have a long arm, even better.
Solid advice for sure. I can understand the concern about being held liable for killing a bear. I would think the sooner you see one the less likely you are to have to kill it.
This.
I had an Inuit native in my squad at basic training, he lived on Kodiak Island. I asked him what it was like to live around that type of predator. He said, and I quote, “ you live carefully.” He then added with a smile that between salmon and photographers, they were seldom hungry.
You would find it amazing that the residents of Kodiak are some of the most bear relaxed people you'll ever encounter. I spend time down there every year visiting friends that have lived there their whole lives. You will find hundreds of residents that fish and hike with no firearms at all, lodge owners that go about their daily duties without a rifle in sight, and hunters that hunt deer with .243's instead of large caliber rifles. Bears on Kodiak are different than bears elsewhere. They are primarily foragers of plants and fish eaters. Yes, a couple people have been munched on Kodiak, but it is exceedingly rare considering how many people live and recreate in close proximity to its large bear population.
Grizzly bears in our interior are far more aggressive and troublesome. Bears are smart. In areas where they are hunted heavily, they are less likely to encounter humans. We have a fairly large local population of bears and they never really give us trouble because there is a very liberal season on them. Kodiak is the same way. A history of hunting has pretty much taught bears that humans are bad.
Wondering how fast a bear can move? Watch this video taken by my friend Jake. Mature Kodiak blacktail deer will hit 150 to 175# and this one was that big. That bear RAN off with a man sized animal.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6ssEy4-z8g
thopkins22
11-29-18, 11:33
I don’t recommend playing with bears. But I don’t personally find coastal brown bears all that scary. Moose and bears from the interior that are working a lot harder for calories scare me a lot more. They have a brain that’s very similar to a dog. If you run and scream they’re much more likely to pounce you out of instinct.
Me doing dumb shit with the big puppy dogs.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181129/e73cc499aa6188c6f6a2ee3def5487e9.jpg
I don’t recommend playing with bears. But I don’t personally find coastal brown bears all that scary. Moose and bears from the interior that are working a lot harder for calories scare me a lot more. They have a brain that’s very similar to a dog. If you run and scream they’re much more likely to pounce you out of instinct.
Me doing dumb shit with the big puppy dogs.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181129/e73cc499aa6188c6f6a2ee3def5487e9.jpg
You said "dumb shit" not me. I wouldn't have been that generous.
You said "dumb shit" not me. I wouldn't have been that generous.
Safer than crossing the street in some cities. Photography tours are a huge part of the tourism business in many coastal areas. I don't recall a single instance of a coastal brown bear mauling a photographer in those circumstances.
thopkins22
11-29-18, 17:03
Safer than crossing the street in some cities. Photography tours are a huge part of the tourism business in many coastal areas. I don't recall a single instance of a coastal brown bear mauling a photographer in those circumstances.
Yep. We went every day for a week for a project I was hired for, and you realize that the pilots/guides that put you on them are like rodeo bullfighters in the sense that it’s 99% understanding the psychology of the animal you’re getting too close to. I have family in Alaska and the next time I visit I’ll pay out of pocket to do it again...and recommend it to everyone who goes.
Don’t smell like fish, make sure the bears live somewhere where they gorge themselves on fish and don’t have to hunt things on four legs, remain calm, avoid sows with cubs at all costs...and realize that you’re MUCH more likely to die in the super cub landing on some beach filled with drift wood than you are to be mauled to death by a bear.
Dangerous? Sure. But like akdoug said, not as dangerous as all of these threads on various forums would lead you to believe. Now there are definitely islands where coastal browns don’t behave that way...and being a hunter or fisherman changes your outlook dramatically as a bear may see your kill as something it can easily claim. People have been torn up pretty good on Afognak recently...but once again, standing next to a dead elk.
Yep. We went every day for a week for a project I was hired for, and you realize that the pilots/guides that put you on them are like rodeo bullfighters in the sense that it’s 99% understanding the psychology of the animal you’re getting too close to. I have family in Alaska and the next time I visit I’ll pay out of pocket to do it again...and recommend it to everyone who goes.
Don’t smell like fish, make sure the bears live somewhere where they gorge themselves on fish and don’t have to hunt things on four legs, remain calm, avoid sows with cubs at all costs...and realize that you’re MUCH more likely to die in the super cub landing on some beach filled with drift wood than you are to be mauled to death by a bear.
Dangerous? Sure. But like akdoug said, not as dangerous as all of these threads on various forums would lead you to believe. Now there are definitely islands where coastal browns don’t behave that way...and being a hunter or fisherman changes your outlook dramatically as a bear may see your kill as something it can easily claim. People have been torn up pretty good on Afognak recently...but once again, standing next to a dead elk.
I'll agree. We don't have bears but we do have alligators. Just this year we had a women killed walking her little dog near a lagoon. She is dead. If someone bet me I couldn't catch an alligator in 30 minutes I would troll lagoon banks with a toy poodle with a 12/0 hook in its collar. I would win the bet! A few years ago we had a stupid golfer who thought retrieving his ball lying 3 feet from the nose of a 12" gator was OK. He lived but doesn't play golf anymore. It's tough to do with one arm. My point is.. People are stupid!!
Coal Dragger
11-29-18, 21:36
Well it’s official. I now want to exterminate every grizzly bear on this continent.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/6abc.com/amp/grizzly-bear-kills-mom-10-month-old-baby-outside-cabin/4789843/
Well it’s official. I now want to exterminate every grizzly bear on this continent.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/6abc.com/amp/grizzly-bear-kills-mom-10-month-old-baby-outside-cabin/4789843/
Why?
A tragedy to be certain but guess what lives in the woods? Bears...
It’s like people who go in the ocean and get attacked or eaten by sharks and then everyone be like
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181130/15a9a7a0cfe27f03231b3c52c43df2d3.jpg
News flash we’re not the dominant species in the ocean, or the woods.
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Coal Dragger
11-29-18, 22:03
I have an infant at home, so it makes me extra mad to hear about kids getting hurt or killed.
I have an infant at home, so it makes me extra mad to hear about kids getting hurt or killed.
Better tear down your neighbors pools then too given the statistics.
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Coal Dragger
11-29-18, 22:32
None of them have pools, but in preparation we’ve been taking the little man to the local indoor pool since he was 6 months old. He’s comfortable in the water and swim lessons will start as soon as he’s old enough.
I can teach the boy to swim, it’s a life saving skill.
I'd be willing to be complacency killed him as much as anything. When you've walked past 100 grizzlies without incident you start to think you are somehow special and that the people who get attacked "must have done something wrong."
Not everyone has the mindset that says "Nothing bad has happened for a hundred incidents but TODAY it will probably all go wrong and for no particular reason at all."
A guy I knew use to pick up small rattle snakes by the tail and play with them like they were toys and one random day, he got bit in the arm pit by a 16-18" rattle snake. He didn't die, but he was hospitalized for 7-8 days and it cost him a ton of money. I guess that's why they say, more people die from an unloaded gun.
thopkins22
11-29-18, 23:46
None of them have pools, but in preparation we’ve been taking the little man to the local indoor pool since he was 6 months old. He’s comfortable in the water and swim lessons will start as soon as he’s old enough.
I can teach the boy to swim, it’s a life saving skill.
You can also teach him how to be safe when he’s living somewhere that is a two day walk and an 11 hour drive from the nearest city.
This is not something to be afraid of. It’s something to learn about.
Your hobby is infinitely more likely to kill your son than a stupid bear...and the reality is that this is true for people living in big brown bear country too(like this mother and son.)
Coal Dragger
11-30-18, 00:10
He’ll also be trained in gun safety and marksmanship as soon as he’s old enough.
In the meantime, and even once he’s old enough the guns not in use, or on my person live in the safe locked up.
Life is a tough road. That lady and baby that got killed just as easily could have been killed in a car accident. That bear video I posted.. taken by my friend Jake... his wife Amber dropped dead at age 39 on Monday before Thanksgiving leaving him with six kids. No clue why she died yet, autopsy pending, but she was up and getting the kids ready for the day when she passed.
I've lived in rural Alaska for 40 of my nearly 50 years. We have bears all around us, they've been in my yard, and all around me. Had a sow and two cubs tear up my dog once. It never stopped me from having my kids playing outside or even letting them go fishing well into the night. It's just part of the deal around here. I don't want every bear dead, but I don't mind killing them.
News flash we’re not the dominant species in the ocean, or the woods.
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We are IF we bring our BRAINS and our TOOLS. So many leave one, the other or both behind.
FlyingHunter
11-30-18, 06:56
Situational awareness > condition 1,2,3 or caliber A,B,C
and sometimes it's just your time.
That really sucks. But when you are creating what is essentially a bear buffet, someone should have been on over watch with no less than a .308, preferably a high capacity semi auto. This was completely preventable.
Initially I assumed somebody got ambushed by an unseen bear and simply didn't have time to draw, rack and shoot. This is even worse, wouldn't have mattered if there was one in the chamber or not. I also think that handguns really aren't suitable for bear country, especially if you are covered in elk blood.
I've been telling people this for years and they don't get it.
They all want to use a magnum revolver, shotgun filled with slugs, or a lever gun chambered in .45-70.
All of these are less powerful than a .308 rifle. All take more time to load, operated the action, and shoot than a FAL, AR-10, M14, G3, etc.
A magnum revolver is still needed as a sidearm in case you are knocked down and need to fight with one hand.
RetroRevolver77
11-30-18, 11:51
deleted
Coal Dragger
11-30-18, 17:33
I've been telling people this for years and they don't get it.
They all want to use a magnum revolver, shotgun filled with slugs, or a lever gun chambered in .45-70.
All of these are less powerful than a .308 rifle. All take more time to load, operated the action, and shoot than a FAL, AR-10, M14, G3, etc.
A magnum revolver is still needed as a sidearm in case you are knocked down and need to fight with one hand.
A modern .45-70 utilizing modern hot loads is considerably more powerful than a .308 is...
A modern .45-70 utilizing modern hot loads is considerably more powerful than a .308 is...
Yeah, but a magazine of 20 that can be quickly deployed does take up a lot of slack. But if you had a hypothetical FAL chambered in .45-70, yeah that would work.
I just am of the opinion that magnum handguns aren't sufficient and you need to be able to hit some bears HARD and SEVERAL TIMES before they realize they aren't going to win. And really, really big bears can do a lot of damage before they die. It's not something I'd fool around with.
Coal Dragger
11-30-18, 18:55
A grizz closing at 35 mph isn’t going to give you time for a mag dump. At least not from video footage I’ve seen. Big bore rifles slinging heavy bullets have a well proven track record of stopping large angry animals all over the world. When I see professional guides in Africa start carrying .308’s for stopping rifles I might take that option seriously.
We know that high performance.45-70 loads are not too far off the mark of a .458 Winchester. Plenty of big critters in Africa and North America have been dumped in place with both, or similar performing cartridges.
A grizz closing at 35 mph isn’t going to give you time for a mag dump. At least not from video footage I’ve seen. Big bore rifles slinging heavy bullets have a well proven track record of stopping large angry animals all over the world. When I see professional guides in Africa start carrying .308’s for stopping rifles I might take that option seriously.
But I wasn't saying any of that. I was saying .308 semi autos are a better option than magnum handguns. And if a .308 semi auto isn't gonna get it done, it's never gonna happen with a magnum handgun. I'm all for magnum rifles, but personally I'm more comfortable with a faster action and larger capacity.
We know that high performance.45-70 loads are not too far off the mark of a .458 Winchester. Plenty of big critters in Africa and North America have been dumped in place with both, or similar performing cartridges.
My concern is am I'm capable of first shot hits in that high stress situation. Again, I'm not dismissing the suitability of a more powerful rifle. Some stuff just isn't going to be stopped by .308 and I know that, especially in Africa. But modern .308 is very close to old 30.06 and old 8mm Mauser which have respectable track records and I personally believe a LOT of modern .308 would suffice for bear country.
thopkins22
11-30-18, 19:13
A piece of rebar with a tennis ball on it. Hit the tennis ball or hit the rebar if you want the lights to go off immediately.
The problem is that the tennis ball is inside of a cinderblock of a skull and that the piece of rebar is behind hundreds of pounds of meat and bone. Moving quickly while you shit yourself and maybe don’t even have any ability to process what’s happening yet because you’ve never experienced it. SteyrAug is spot on about the difficulty of putting rounds into that. Hell go shoot an IDPA or USPSA match where there are movers that you get to see the speed of and think about. And they’ll be a hell of a lot slower than a brown bear. And just see how you do. Most people suck.
THAT is not only the problem with magnums that 99.9% of people can’t shoot well, but with firearms as a primary defense against a bear attack that just springs on you out of brambles.
Spray is a smarter option for most people, even most firearm enthusiasts. Will it help once it is bound and determined to rip you apart? Probably not...but in that critical few seconds as it’s deciding whether or not to bluff or hit you like a truck? The studies are pretty clear as to its effectiveness.
As to bears you see coming? Time to stand up tall, scream, wave your arms, and let it know you’re there. He doesn’t have any desire to play with your loud ass. And sure, have a rifle ready to shoulder and make a loud bang or put rounds into him.
A modern .45-70 utilizing modern hot loads is considerably more powerful than a .308 is...
Does it have more penetration than a solid copper .308 hunting load?
Coal Dragger
11-30-18, 20:02
Pretty sure a 500gr solid at over 1600fps is going to do pretty well.
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=154
Buffalo Bore says to expect 60”-72” of penetration through muscle and bone. So is 60”-72” of penetraion doable for a .308? I love the .308 and feel it’s a great all around cartridge, but it is nowhere near the power level or effectiveness on game of big bores.
A big bore rifle and balls of frigging steel.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=f9D64GKHhBw
Without much effort, I can fire off 3 rounds of 45-70-405 in my Marlin Guide gun in under 4 seconds. It has the big loop lever. This is what I used to take a large mountain lion some years back. For more fun hunting, I have taken a Bull Elk with a Christian Sharps Rifle in 45-70-545 Creedmor and one shot is all it took.
I do historic Indian Wars mounted Cavalry here in the State, visiting different places like Fort Stanton or Fort Union. I have have 1888 Springfield Trapdoor Carbine and I load my own black powder 45-55-405 rounds, a historically accurate load for a 22 inch barrel carbine with a cardboard spacer for the reduced powder charge. Fun stuff.
A big bore rifle and balls of frigging steel.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=f9D64GKHhBwThat video is always jaw dropping to watch. Freaking lion is hauling ass, that man is very lucky
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zombiescometh
11-30-18, 23:25
Even worse than carrying a gun without out a round chambered is carrying one that has the wrong caliber ammo. Just more luck I guess.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BZEMgRiHXBj/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=1h5qgxlc7m38b
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A grizz closing at 35 mph isn’t going to give you time for a mag dump. At least not from video footage I’ve seen. Big bore rifles slinging heavy bullets have a well proven track record of stopping large angry animals all over the world. When I see professional guides in Africa start carrying .308’s for stopping rifles I might take that option seriously.
We know that high performance.45-70 loads are not too far off the mark of a .458 Winchester. Plenty of big critters in Africa and North America have been dumped in place with both, or similar performing cartridges.
Well, perhaps not entirely- sure you may not get a "mag DUMP", but you're definitely going to be able to put some lead down.
I know of a guy from another forum that killed a grizzly in Alaska with an AK. I think we all know how x39 relates to .308, or any other rifle caliber mentioned here in terminal performance...
Yes,it was documented, yes it did charge him, yes he was VERY thankful he carried with one in the chamber, and yes, his round strikes were hardly a clean bit of shooting.
Not saying the big-bore lever gun folks here are wrong- merely that I know of at least one real life occasion "a lot to the everywhere" got the job done in a smaller caliber than .308....
Granted, if I lived in bear country I would NOT be carrying an AK... :laugh:
But I guess my point is, if someone stateside already had a decent semi .308 and didn't want to/couldn't spend money on another rifle....they're likely not *that* bad off...
Even worse than carrying a gun without out a round chambered is carrying one that has the wrong caliber ammo. Just more luck I guess.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BZEMgRiHXBj/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=1h5qgxlc7m38b
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Good Christ. :rolleyes:
Poor ammo selection, and "The lady at Cabela's even left my bear spray out of my bags..."
WHAT?!?!?
Who doesn't check and double-check this sort of thing before heading of...alone...into bear country.
I think that guy was trying for suicide by nature... :laugh:
MountainRaven
12-01-18, 01:24
A grizz closing at 35 mph isn’t going to give you time for a mag dump. At least not from video footage I’ve seen. Big bore rifles slinging heavy bullets have a well proven track record of stopping large angry animals all over the world. When I see professional guides in Africa start carrying .308’s for stopping rifles I might take that option seriously.
We know that high performance.45-70 loads are not too far off the mark of a .458 Winchester. Plenty of big critters in Africa and North America have been dumped in place with both, or similar performing cartridges.
I can think of three institutional organizations that deal with polar bears on a regular basis that choose non-magnum 30-caliber rifles:
The Canadian Rangers (who had 303 British Enfield No.4 Mk1s, but now have 7.62mm NATO Tikka T3Xs), the Danish Sirius Dog Sled Patrol (who use lightly modified US M1917s in 30-06 alongside Glock model 20s in 10mm), and the Norwegian island of Svalbard (where it is illegal to leave town without a rifle and the rifles they loan out to tourists are mostly m/K98kF1s - Norwegian capture Kar98ks rechambered for 30-06).
Given that polar bears are larger and more aggressive than griz;
Given that two of these users are military or paramilitary in nature;
Given that the third user group is civil in nature, and;
Given that all of these groups operate in an official capacity on behalf of risk averse governments;
I'm not sure that something like a 45-70 or 375 H&H are necessary for stopping bear attacks.
Moose-Knuckle
12-01-18, 06:31
We are IF we bring our BRAINS and our TOOLS. So many leave one, the other or both behind.
Yup. Homo sapiens sapiens are the apex predator on this rock, second is the orca and we keep them in tanks for our amusement.
Moose-Knuckle
12-01-18, 06:36
A grizz closing at 35 mph isn’t going to give you time for a mag dump. At least not from video footage I’ve seen. Big bore rifles slinging heavy bullets have a well proven track record of stopping large angry animals all over the world. When I see professional guides in Africa start carrying .308’s for stopping rifles I might take that option seriously.
African Park Rangers use G3's and FAL's to dispatch wounded "Big Five" animals in the bush as well as bad guys. Most poachers are caught using Mausers and AK's to take the Big Five.
With that said, if I lived in bear country I'd probably get that SBS I've always wanted, Brenneke slugs work wonders.
gunnerblue
12-01-18, 10:37
African Park Rangers use G3's and FAL's to dispatch wounded "Big Five" animals in the bush as well as bad guys. Most poachers are caught using Mausers and AK's to take the Big Five.
With that said, if I lived in bear country I'd probably get that SBS I've always wanted, Brenneke slugs work wonders.
True, but dispatching wounded animals is not the same thing as stopping a charge. Large, heavy-for-caliber bullets at moderate to moderately-high velocities have been used to stop dangerous game for centuries. I certainly wouldn’t feel unarmed with 20 rounds of 7.62, but feel that for stopping a charging bear something like a .45-70 with a large meplat, non-expanding bullet is a better tool for job.
African poachers use whatever they can get their hands on, and AK’s are prevelant. As far as I know, the recommended minimum for hunting brown bears in Alaska is still a .30-06 with a 220 grain bullet. This isn’t because it’s the best tool, but because it can get the job done and not everyone has or can afford a .375+ caliber rifle.
My 2 cents
I've worked with a few brown bears. They are no joke. Predators to their core. Very large predators. They are about the only animal that truly scares me. You can't outrun them, you can't out swim or out dive them, you can't hide in a car or cabin because they can simply tear it open if they want to, they move so damn fast and they can be so sneaky, you'd be lucky to even get a shot off, much less a hit... You might be able to climb a tree to get away from one, but it would have to be a very large tree and you'd have to go pretty high, pretty quickly, which isn't likely because you won't even know they are there until its too late. Frankly, I'm surprised this doesn't happen more often.
Condolences to the man's family. So sad.
Bears are EXCELLENT climbers, they can climb a tree faster than a human can run on the ground.
Without much effort, I can fire off 3 rounds of 45-70-405 in my Marlin Guide gun in under 4 seconds.
In that time I can do 20 rounds out of my G3. I'm not a big game hunter with lots of experiences so I'm more comfortable with 20 chances.
In that time I can do 20 rounds out of my G3. I'm not a big game hunter with lots of experiences so I'm more comfortable with 20 chances.
More rounds are insurance, and unlike other States, hunters do not have magazine limits here. However, you can't use full metal jacket ammo. We don't have Grizz here now, so black bear or mountain lion are the biggest predators. You know you can drop a Bison with 45-70?
More rounds are insurance, and unlike other States, hunters do not have magazine limits here. However, you can't use full metal jacket ammo. We don't have Grizz here now, so black bear or mountain lion are the biggest predators. You know you can drop a Bison with 45-70?
Again, I'm not here to criticize the 45-70 in any way. In fact I consider the .308 to be a minimum acceptable round. But I'd rather have 20 of them vs. 5 of something strong. But that's just me.
Coal Dragger
12-01-18, 16:55
True, but dispatching wounded animals is not the same thing as stopping a charge. Large, heavy-for-caliber bullets at moderate to moderately-high velocities have been used to stop dangerous game for centuries. I certainly wouldn’t feel unarmed with 20 rounds of 7.62, but feel that for stopping a charging bear something like a .45-70 with a large meplat, non-expanding bullet is a better tool for job.
African poachers use whatever they can get their hands on, and AK’s are prevelant. As far as I know, the recommended minimum for hunting brown bears in Alaska is still a .30-06 with a 220 grain bullet. This isn’t because it’s the best tool, but because it can get the job done and not everyone has or can afford a .375+ caliber rifle.
My 2 cents
I asked one of my coworkers about his observations of calibers. He’s taken all of the big 5 other than the leopard (got skunked, never even heard a cat his last trip). His family also used to do hunts for bison on their ranch, so he’s personally shot or seen shot a lot of large heavy boned North American game animals.
His African hunting was done with a Cz in .375 H&H, and a Cz in .416 Rem. Except his elephant, where he borrowed a heavier rifle from the guide. He loves the .375 H&H with 300gr pills, dumped pretty much everything he shot with it on the spot. His lion was agitated and getting ready to come after him and his guide (according to him) and the .375 wrecked him on the spot. His Cape buffalo was anticlimactic and taken with a .375, didn’t charge or go very far before piling up. He took the rhino with the .416 and said it did a good job but the guide also shot, because they weren’t going to mess around risking losing the animal. Same for the elephant, they shot his bull and put him down ASAP, no messing around.
His grandpa and dad had a policy of no caliber under .30-06 with heavy bullets for bison when they were still doing that. Even then it was not uncommon for a bison to get hit, and take off running leading to a long day of trying to find a wounded and pissed off bull. He seemed more positive on larger calibers and told me if I came out for a hunt that he’d lend me the .375 because it “Kills them right now, and we don’t have to chase them”. Sadly they stopped their operation so no bison hunt for me.
Coal Dragger
12-01-18, 17:02
Again, I'm not here to criticize the 45-70 in any way. In fact I consider the .308 to be a minimum acceptable round. But I'd rather have 20 of them vs. 5 of something strong. But that's just me.
Depending on applicable state laws being afield with a 20 round magazine in a long gun might get you in some trouble. You can try to tell the game warden it’s for self defense, but if he doesn’t buy it you might be getting a ticket or your gear confiscated.
So now that you are possibly looking at a .308 with only 5 rounds on board, is that still adequate to you?
Depending on applicable state laws being afield with a 20 round magazine in a long gun might get you in some trouble. You can try to tell the game warden it’s for self defense, but if he doesn’t buy it you might be getting a ticket or your gear confiscated.
So now that you are possibly looking at a .308 with only 5 rounds on board, is that still adequate to you?
It's no problem in any state that currently has a decent population of grizzly bears. (Idaho, Alaska, Montana or Wyoming). Guys I know that get paid to guide hunters on bears and crawl into the brush after wounded bears don't pack semi-autos. They pack 20" barreled big bore magnum bolt guns.. .375H&H and larger. When I ask advice about bears I go to my SME Jake since he's been a part of killing over 100 of them.
Again, I'm not here to criticize the 45-70 in any way. In fact I consider the .308 to be a minimum acceptable round. But I'd rather have 20 of them vs. 5 of something strong. But that's just me.
If I had a semi-automatic hunting rifle/guide gun and it held 20 rounds of 45-70, I would use it. My JM Marlin is 6 plus 1 so I fee pretty comfortable with it, and the big loop lever is great when wearing gloves. The backup is the .357 Ruger GP100 with six inch barrel and 180 grain bullets. I am not opposed to a large caliber semi-auto rifle, it's just I'm not tracking Grizz, and if I was, I may want something more like you describe. An LMT in .308 I would feel totally comfortable with. Keep in mind that many a western frontiersman in the 19th century have taken large predators with a single shot Sharps or Springfield Trapdoor rifle.
Depending on applicable state laws being afield with a 20 round magazine in a long gun might get you in some trouble. You can try to tell the game warden it’s for self defense, but if he doesn’t buy it you might be getting a ticket or your gear confiscated.
So now that you are possibly looking at a .308 with only 5 rounds on board, is that still adequate to you?
My brother live in Fairbanks so I've actually done this. But to answer an obvious question, if I'm limited to 5 rounds I'm probably moving up to a bigger round. But again the original discussion was 10mm and magnum handguns and I stated .308 is my minimum "bear country" round.
Additionally, even IF Mr. Ranger wants to ticket me, go ahead I'll fight it in court. He's obviously not confiscating my rifle.
If I had a semi-automatic hunting rifle/guide gun and it held 20 rounds of 45-70, I would use it. My JM Marlin is 6 plus 1 so I fee pretty comfortable with it, and the big loop lever is great when wearing gloves. The backup is the .357 Ruger GP100 with six inch barrel and 180 grain bullets. I am not opposed to a large caliber semi-auto rifle, it's just I'm not tracking Grizz, and if I was, I may want something more like you describe. An LMT in .308 I would feel totally comfortable with. Keep in mind that many a western frontiersman in the 19th century have taken large predators with a single shot Sharps or Springfield Trapdoor rifle.
Forget the name, but there was an old west guy who killed large bears with a bowie knife. But just because some old west guys could do it, doesn't mean I'm trying it.
I'm not even trying to suggest you aren't good to go with your Marlin and a GP100 on your hip, I'm just saying I personally have a different comfort zone. And it's not a case of me out tracking Grizzlies, but I know sometimes we are playing in the same zip code.
My brother lives for that shit and loves to drag me out to check on bear bait and other things I don't normally do on a regular basis. He's fine with a scoped bolt rifle that holds 5 rounds of whatever magnum caliber he's rolling with that day, I'm more of a G3 / FAL kind of person.
MountainRaven
12-02-18, 00:19
More rounds are insurance, and unlike other States, hunters do not have magazine limits here. However, you can't use full metal jacket ammo. We don't have Grizz here now, so black bear or mountain lion are the biggest predators. You know you can drop a Bison with 45-70?
The Canadian Rangers use 7.62mm NATO loaded with 180-grain AccuBonds. I would feel comfortable having to deal with a big brown with 20 of those (or a similar, heavy 30-caliber quality solid copper or bonded bullet) in a SCAR 17S or HK91.
The Canadian Rangers use 7.62mm NATO loaded with 180-grain AccuBonds. I would feel comfortable having to deal with a big brown with 20 of those (or a similar, heavy 30-caliber quality solid copper or bonded bullet) in a SCAR 17S or HK91.
My brother live in Fairbanks so I've actually done this. But to answer an obvious question, if I'm limited to 5 rounds I'm probably moving up to a bigger round. But again the original discussion was 10mm and magnum handguns and I stated .308 is my minimum "bear country" round.
I agree with all of the above. Carrying a 10mm Glock in Grizzly Country was Darwin waiting to happen. Over the years I have looked at the Lewis Machine & Tool AR's in .308. They're pricey but would be a nice level of protection in an area where you're normally not the Apex Predator, but I'm no big game hunter outside of the Elk, Mule Deer, Prong Horn and Mountain Lion in my part of the world. I've seen some decent sized Black Bear, but my present armament and calibers are sufficient for the job.
I'm up early today. Gotta go out and bust some ice on stock tanks. Light snow coming down now.
MountainRaven
01-31-19, 01:50
WY Fish & Game has published a thirty-four-page report on the findings of their investigation into this attack:
Link to news story (https://county17.com/2019/01/30/game-and-fish-bear-spray-repelled-killer-grizzly/).
Chubon “inadvertently ejected the loaded magazine while trying to disengage the safety,”
Oof...
I'm somewhat glad we only have black bears in my area. Although fun fact: While black bears are fairly skittish and much less apt to attack people than grizzlies, when they do attack, the intent is much more likely to be predatory in nature, vs the usually territorial or defensive motivations for grizzly attacks. So if a black bear decides to pick a fight with you, it's probably because it plans to eat you.
sundance435
01-31-19, 10:52
Oof...
I'm somewhat glad we only have black bears in my area. Although fun fact: While black bears are fairly skittish and much less apt to attack people than grizzlies, when they do attack, the intent is much more likely to be predatory in nature, vs the usually territorial or defensive motivations for grizzly attacks. So if a black bear decides to pick a fight with you, it's probably because it plans to eat you.
I thought they were more likely to attack? Maybe it's just the second part, though, that if a black bear attacks, it's usually predatory (e.g. more black bear attacks result in death). Plus, because of their much wider range and general indifference to human presence, you're just more likely to encounter a black bear.
I thought they were more likely to attack? Maybe it's just the second part, though, that if a black bear attacks, it's usually predatory (e.g. more black bear attacks result in death). Plus, because of their much wider range and general indifference to human presence, you're just more likely to encounter a black bear.
I think in absolute terms, yes there are more recorded black bear confrontations on the record, due, as you mentioned, to their much wider range and higher population. But in general black bears are a much less aggressive bear than browns/grizzlies. There are however a couple vids on YouTube of people being "stalked" by black bears which are a bit unnerving.
Most grizzly attacks stem from either protective females with cubs, or the bear's desire to either defend or gain access to a food source like, say, an elk carcass.
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