View Full Version : Door to Door searches coming to NJ?
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2018/12/11/nj-state-police-refuse-to-rule-out-house-to-house-enforcement-of-high-capacity-magazine-ban/#axzz5ZRRv3NKA
So here is my take on this.
Fantastic, this is wonderful.
I really hope the police go door to door, without warrants and PC.
What!
Why?
This comes together, State Police do this, we will see how the people respond. Then we will be able to understand better how the American people will respond to tyranny.
This will be more valuable, than a thread on civil war.
Watch, learn and modify your life based on the new facts on the ground.
They don’t discuss enforcement strategies. That sounds reasonable to me (unlike the ban itself). This is more Breitbart hysteria.
So, they give the NJ state police a shoe box of hi cap magazines, travel a state over and buy new ones? Or do the police keep coming back to the house over and over?
Business_Casual
12-14-18, 06:00
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2018/12/11/nj-state-police-refuse-to-rule-out-house-to-house-enforcement-of-high-capacity-magazine-ban/#axzz5ZRRv3NKA
So here is my take on this.
Fantastic, this is wonderful.
I really hope the police go door to door, without warrants and PC.
What!
Why?
This comes together, State Police do this, we will see how the people respond. Then we will be able to understand better how the American people will respond to tyranny.
This will be more valuable, than a thread on civil war.
Watch, learn and modify your life based on the new facts on the ground.
They won’t do anything. Just like checkpoints and the Boston bomber search.
mentioned this inside a thread here somewhere :) nobody seemed to have anything on it ?
sadly this does or could be the clickbait headlines they do ? I like many of the articles but sadly its 50/50 there anymore I try to jump out find two other articles verifying it even if its from left wing to get their view also
It will never happen. There are too many ways to hide them and the cops don't have the resources to spend the time necessary to find them. It's all talk.
First, we couldn't have normal mags before, 15 rounds has been the limit since 1990 so anything over 15 rounds was "high cap" in NJ. We were screwed before, now we are effed in the A.
Second, NJ gun owners are by and large nothing but front holes. They won't do shit. Just like they haven't done shit since 1990.
Third, a later article said that the NJSP responded and said they had no interest in door to door searches.
Fourth, I'm going to be starting to look for a new job in NC in a month or two. F this state.
The people in NJ keep voting for the ones making these laws so my prediction is they will do nothing when the laws are enforced.
FromMyColdDeadHand
12-14-18, 07:55
Brietbart just stirring the pot. They didn't even do the 'we have heard from unconfirmed sources' canard.
I can recall several instances of NJ police targeting out of state drivers looking for guns, sooner or later.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-14-18, 08:02
A police agency, big or small, could at best do two to three raids per day, and it would require the entire resources of most small to mid size agencies. They could effectively no longer patrol or respond to calls for service. Seeing as how all LE agencies are already understaffed and under equipped, that op tempo would slow considerably over a very short amount of time. Seeing your little door to door fantasy come to fruition is literally not possible. Sorry.
Cops are people from your community, which means some cops are anti-gun, some cops are even anti-constitution. Most cops will enforce these new laws, and most Republican politicians will do nothing about them. Eventually, people will come to accept these new laws, just as they have with every other infringement from the past. The sad thing is, the gun control model of slowly chipping away at our rights is working, people are enforcing it, people aren't fighting it, the NRA doesn't care, and the only "resistance" is to bury your mags in a shoebox and wear a "punisher skull" T Shirt. If a line was ever going to be drawn in the sand, it would've been done in:
-1934
-1938
-1939
-1968
-1986
-1993
-1994
Our forefathers in the revolution are the only generation that did something about this. The rest of us, our great-grandfathers on down to our sons, just roll over, take it, and then talk big game about "III%" on gun forums.
The people in NJ keep voting for the ones making these laws so my prediction is they will do nothing when the laws are enforced.Those people that voted for the ones making these laws are the same people who want confiscations
SomeOtherGuy
12-14-18, 08:44
Fourth, I'm going to be starting to look for a new job in NC in a month or two. F this state.
NC is rapidly turning "blue". Virginia is basically "blue" now. Colorado is now California politically. Utah isn't far off. Washington is full leftist and Idaho isn't completely safe. Texas is 2-3 election cycles from being purple at best. A lot of states that were supposedly solidly conservative aren't any more. I agree with your sentiment but I think the era of moving to where you like the politics better is over, and it's time people need to dig in and defend what's right.
PatrioticDisorder
12-14-18, 09:10
A police agency, big or small, could at best do two to three raids per day, and it would require the entire resources of most small to mid size agencies. They could effectively no longer patrol or respond to calls for service. Seeing as how all LE agencies are already understaffed and under equipped, that op tempo would slow considerably over a very short amount of time. Seeing your little door to door fantasy come to fruition is literally not possible. Sorry.
Cops are people from your community, which means some cops are anti-gun, some cops are even anti-constitution. Most cops will enforce these new laws, and most Republican politicians will do nothing about them. Eventually, people will come to accept these new laws, just as they have with every other infringement from the past. The sad thing is, the gun control model of slowly chipping away at our rights is working, people are enforcing it, people aren't fighting it, the NRA doesn't care, and the only "resistance" is to bury your mags in a shoebox and wear a "punisher skull" T Shirt. If a line was ever going to be drawn in the sand, it would've been done in:
-1934
-1938
-1939
-1968
-1986
-1993
-1994
Our forefathers in the revolution are the only generation that did something about this. The rest of us, our great-grandfathers on down to our sons, just roll over, take it, and then talk big game about "III%" on gun forums.
That is because we are a hell of a lot more comfortable than the founding fathers were with all of our modern amenities. The most egregious gun control restrictions are in states where overall gun ownership was low to begin with. I can live anywhere I want, I was born in upstate NY, I now live in Florida, I left NY for the freedom. I do not think compliance will be very high in currently free states, I also do not think anyone is stating a “civil war” or revolution over it either.... Not yet anyway, but if we keep moving further left as a country it will have a major derogatory impact on our way of life, once the masses are no longer comfortable I would expect all hell to break lose, in a similar way to Yoguslavia but on a much larger and deadlier scale. I really don’t want to be around for that, it will be a very ugly & brutal world.
And let me add any LEO who is anti-RKBA is a damn fool, the same people who wish to disarm the masses are the same people who have been waging a war on police. Just as soon as the masses are disarmed, law enforcement will largely be disarmed as well, this is the vision of the left.
NC is rapidly turning "blue". Virginia is basically "blue" now. Colorado is now California politically. Utah isn't far off. Washington is full leftist and Idaho isn't completely safe. Texas is 2-3 election cycles from being purple at best. A lot of states that were supposedly solidly conservative aren't any more. I agree with your sentiment but I think the era of moving to where you like the politics better is over, and it's time people need to dig in and defend what's right.
It's not just guns, its property values and quality of life. For the price of a 1500 SF house on .25 acres in NJ I can have 3000 SF and 3+ acres in NC, or 3000 SF and 10 acres in SC. Plus in NJ my property taxes will be at least $10-$15K per year, NC/SC, what? $3K?
If I get a job in Raleigh we will live somewhere south-east of it. If I get a job in Charlotte I'm looking at York Co SC.
My pay will be essentially the same, my wife will loose a little in pay so its a no brainer.
No place is "safe" but some are better than others.
FromMyColdDeadHand
12-14-18, 09:53
I’d skip NC and go full SC, just to be sure ;). When I moved to CO, it was Boulder that was the outlier, now it is the standard. Until SCOTUS puts a marker down, the purple monster is advancing...
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-14-18, 10:04
I’d skip NC and go full SC, just to be sure ;). When I moved to CO, it was Boulder that was the outlier, now it is the standard. Until SCOTUS puts a marker down, the purple monster is advancing...
Yup. I always thought the blue in Colorado was contained. It spread like a wildfire and now, what were once reliably red counties, are turning a blue-ish tinge of purple.
thopkins22
12-14-18, 10:45
Yup. I always thought the blue in Colorado was contained. It spread like a wildfire and now, what were once reliably red counties, are turning a blue-ish tinge of purple.
Until Republicans get over abortion, gay rights, and a handful of other issues that are clearly instances of the state inserting itself where it doesn’t belong, they will continue to lose ground.
Until they realize how absolutely shitty it is that they decried Obama for ruining the office etc...for bowing at the wrong time or whatever else, but then vehemently defend the dogshit human being who behaves like a coked up rapist with Downs syndrome on social media, then they will continue to lose ground. Also a dude who thinks FDR had the right idea...but we’re going to pretend that he’s a conservative or from the right?
On the flip side, this idea that gun rights have deteriorated is a fantasy as well. In many respects, gun laws are much more liberal than at any other point in the life of most people on this forum. Not across the board, but in general.
Very few people owned AR type rifles in 1994. They have outsold everything else for almost two decades now though.
Texas is a lot farther from becoming purple than people think. Beto wasn’t really all that close, he had a ton of charisma, and Ted Cruz is a giant douchebag that nobody likes.
Rest easy. Pay attention and vote, but the right case in front of the Supreme Court could fix this. And as scary as it is to say it now may be the time. Or convince Thomas to step down so we can get some young blood there who will last longer.
platoonDaddy
12-14-18, 10:45
Son-in-law is retired Jersey LEO, is now limited to 10 round magazines.
What I don't understand how does the State trump Federal LESO?
The New Jersey State Police has provided the following guidance in reference to the law changes:
Active duty law enforcement traveling to New Jersey for work related reasons are authorized to carry their duty weapon, ammunition, and magazines, per the departmental guidelines for their department.
Active duty law enforcement traveling to New Jersey for non-work related reasons and carrying under Federal Law HR218 must carry 10 round magazines in their firearm while in the state of New Jersey.
Active duty law enforcement traveling through New Jersey for non-work related reasons and carrying under Federal Law HR218 may place magazines exceeding 10 rounds in a locked case in the trunk of their vehicle for transport through the state of New Jersey.
Retired law enforcement traveling to New Jersey and carrying under Federal Law HR218 must carry 10 round magazines in their firearm while in the state of New Jersey. Additionally, they must carry ball ammunition and are prohibited from carrying hollow point ammunition.
Members must be aware of and abide by these provisions to avoid potential legal implications while traveling to or though New Jersey.
Please note, there are currently several bills being put forward to address round capacity and law enforcement exceptions. Updated information will be provided to members, should the above information change.
https://www.njleg.state.nj.us/2018/Bills/PL18/39_.PDF
If they did not go door to door after the 1989 AWB ban, why would they now?
Fear mongering.
I’m not sure what you mean by ‘checkpoints and the BB search’. Can you elaborate?
platoonDaddy
12-14-18, 10:53
If they did not go door to door after the 1989 AWB ban, why would they now?
Fear mongering.
My hunting partner dropped off his SP1, he owned a large business & didn't need the bad press. Therefore it moved out of Jersey in 88 or 89 and from what I understand is a safe queen.
My retired LEO Son-in-law, isn't taking any chance and is moving his magazines.
Son-in-law is retired Jersey LEO, is now limited to 10 round magazines.
What I don't understand how does the State trump Federal LESO?
What part of the law do you think is being Trumped? It is quite clear the law does not allow you to carry firearms illegal in that state:
(b) This section shall not be construed to supersede or limit the laws of any State that—
(1) permit private persons or entities to prohibit or restrict the possession of concealed firearms on their property; or
(2) prohibit or restrict the possession of firearms on any State or local government property, installation, building, base, or park
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-14-18, 10:56
Until Republicans get over abortion, gay rights, and a handful of other issues that are clearly instances of the state inserting itself where it doesn’t belong, they will continue to lose ground.
Until they realize how absolutely shitty it is that they decried Obama for ruining the office etc...for bowing at the wrong time or whatever else, but then vehemently defend the dogshit human being who behaves like a coked up rapist with Downs syndrome on social media, then they will continue to lose ground. Also a dude who thinks FDR had the right idea...but we’re going to pretend that he’s a conservative or from the right?
On the flip side, this idea that gun rights have deteriorated is a fantasy as well. In many respects, gun laws are much more liberal than at any other point in the life of most people on this forum. Not across the board, but in general.
Very few people owned AR type rifles in 1994. They have outsold everything else for almost two decades now though.
Texas is a lot farther from becoming purple than people think. Beto wasn’t really all that close, he had a ton of charisma, and Ted Cruz is a giant douchebag that nobody likes.
Rest easy. Pay attention and vote, but the right case in front of the Supreme Court could fix this. And as scary as it is to say it now may be the time. Or convince Thomas to step down so we can get some young blood there who will last longer.
I like this post very much. I think it's one of the more sensible posts I've seen in the GD.
I agree with your sentiment but I think the era of moving to where you like the politics better is over, and it's time people need to dig in and defend what's right.
Well by that logic we need to dig in and defend Texas, cause if the libs take Texas it is over. NJ is already lost and not coming back.
PatrioticDisorder
12-14-18, 10:59
Son-in-law is retired Jersey LEO, is now limited to 10 round magazines.
What I don't understand how does the State trump Federal LESO?
The New Jersey State Police has provided the following guidance in reference to the law changes:
Active duty law enforcement traveling to New Jersey for work related reasons are authorized to carry their duty weapon, ammunition, and magazines, per the departmental guidelines for their department.
Active duty law enforcement traveling to New Jersey for non-work related reasons and carrying under Federal Law HR218 must carry 10 round magazines in their firearm while in the state of New Jersey.
Active duty law enforcement traveling through New Jersey for non-work related reasons and carrying under Federal Law HR218 may place magazines exceeding 10 rounds in a locked case in the trunk of their vehicle for transport through the state of New Jersey.
Retired law enforcement traveling to New Jersey and carrying under Federal Law HR218 must carry 10 round magazines in their firearm while in the state of New Jersey. Additionally, they must carry ball ammunition and are prohibited from carrying hollow point ammunition.
Members must be aware of and abide by these provisions to avoid potential legal implications while traveling to or though New Jersey.
Please note, there are currently several bills being put forward to address round capacity and law enforcement exceptions. Updated information will be provided to members, should the above information change.
https://www.njleg.state.nj.us/2018/Bills/PL18/39_.PDF
My next door neighbor (in SWFL) is a retired Lt. from a department in north Jersey, he wasn’t even allowed a pistol permit after retiring.
FromMyColdDeadHand
12-14-18, 12:42
Until Republicans get over abortion, gay rights, and a handful of other issues that are clearly instances of the state inserting itself where it doesn’t belong, they will continue to lose ground.
Until they realize how absolutely shitty it is that they decried Obama for ruining the office etc...for bowing at the wrong time or whatever else, but then vehemently defend the dogshit human being who behaves like a coked up rapist with Downs syndrome on social media, then they will continue to lose ground. Also a dude who thinks FDR had the right idea...but we’re going to pretend that he’s a conservative or from the right?
On the flip side, this idea that gun rights have deteriorated is a fantasy as well. In many respects, gun laws are much more liberal than at any other point in the life of most people on this forum. Not across the board, but in general.
Very few people owned AR type rifles in 1994. They have outsold everything else for almost two decades now though.
Texas is a lot farther from becoming purple than people think. Beto wasn’t really all that close, he had a ton of charisma, and Ted Cruz is a giant douchebag that nobody likes.
Rest easy. Pay attention and vote, but the right case in front of the Supreme Court could fix this. And as scary as it is to say it now may be the time. Or convince Thomas to step down so we can get some young blood there who will last longer.
That is part of it. The real issue is the demographics and the fact that he CO GOP is a mess and has been for a decade. Gardner is the only state level GOPer that seems to get it that and can hold a competent campaign.
55023
Was going to post this in a new thread.
It is bad enough to start with. But the last paragraph really shows the stupidity.
If you are on call you can't even have your normal capacity magazines.
55023
Hey, at least they're consistent.
55023
It should be all of the time. No body will have them because either is illegal, di the police don't need them either.
And it applies to off duty LE:
“The statute now provides that law enforcement officers are not permitted to possess large capacity ammunition magazines, i.e. magazines capable of holding more than ten (10) rounds of ammunition to be fed continuously into semi-automatic firearms, unless while on duty or traveling to or from an authorized place of duty,” the memo read.
https://defensemaven.io/bluelivesmatter/news/new-jersey-bans-police-from-possessing-duty-weapons-while-off-duty-HIerRHQqnUyAM4_V350zFQ/?fbclid=IwAR2lchunMuUewpKGIn9vwRnZTXVMmLvLMDcXMvB0DHBYikr1JvvRC3MGzeg
And it applies to off duty LE:
“The statute now provides that law enforcement officers are not permitted to possess large capacity ammunition magazines, i.e. magazines capable of holding more than ten (10) rounds of ammunition to be fed continuously into semi-automatic firearms, unless while on duty or traveling to or from an authorized place of duty,” the memo read.
https://defensemaven.io/bluelivesmatter/news/new-jersey-bans-police-from-possessing-duty-weapons-while-off-duty-HIerRHQqnUyAM4_V350zFQ/?fbclid=IwAR2lchunMuUewpKGIn9vwRnZTXVMmLvLMDcXMvB0DHBYikr1JvvRC3MGzeg
I rather wonder how you could possess them while traveling to a place of duty if you couldn't possess them just before you left.
I rather wonder how you could possess them while traveling to a place of duty if you couldn't possess them just before you left.You're a cop, you're issued the mags. You're driving from your house to your work to begin your shift.
You're a cop, you're issued the mags. You're driving from your house to your work to begin your shift.
But you can't possess them at your house. "Possession" doesn't mean "carry", just "have".
Funny how the NJSP uniforms have a Gestapo-ish look to them. Or maybe not.
Look up why NYSP wear purple.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
platoonDaddy
12-15-18, 06:59
Up until June 2016 French Police were not allowed to carry firearms when off-duty. Due to the increase in terrorist attacks and a Police officer murdered in his house by a terrorist, as of June 2016, they can carry off duty. France, where guns are generally banned, moved towards letting the Police carry when not on duty, whereas NJ is restricting off-duty Police carry. Does NJ think these restrictions will make it safer to live in NJ. France found that was not the case in France and uses off-duty Police as a force multiplier. Or maybe NJ thinks their Police are not as good as the French Police.
Up until June 2016 French Police were not allowed to carry firearms when off-duty. Due to the increase in terrorist attacks and a Police officer murdered in his house by a terrorist, as of June 2016, they can carry off duty. France, where guns are generally banned, moved towards letting the Police carry when not on duty, whereas NJ is restricting off-duty Police carry. Does NJ think these restrictions will make it safer to live in NJ. France found that was not the case in France and uses off-duty Police as a force multiplier. Or maybe NJ thinks their Police are not as good as the French Police.
I don't know if anything changed, but i met two sgts from the tac team from a Canada who told me they had to leave duty guns at work once off shift and no CCW for them. That was a long time ago, like 2001 I or there abouts. I couldn't even fathom being an LEO under such conditions.
It should be all of the time. No body will have them because either is illegal, di the police don't need them either.
Exactly. There should never be select group exemptions from ANY law. That would go a long way towards ending bad laws.
Exactly. There should never be select group exemptions from ANY law. That would go a long way towards ending bad laws.
Exactly. If the cops don't want their shit taken away then they need to stop enforcing stupid laws that restrict items from the public.
I don't know if anything changed, but i met two sgts from the tac team from a Canada who told me they had to leave duty guns at work once off shift and no CCW for them. That was a long time ago, like 2001 I or there abouts. I couldn't even fathom being an LEO under such conditions.
Probably a good way to prevent fratricide, at least.
SeriousStudent
12-15-18, 12:30
I just deleted half the posts in this thread as being way off topic. As in, from my house to outer space off topic.
This is actually an important issue to our members in NJ. So let's keep it on the topic of NJ gun laws, rather than ninjas putting chemtrails in the water to destroy puppies.
platoonDaddy
12-15-18, 12:37
What part of the law do you think is being Trumped? It is quite clear the law does not allow you to carry firearms illegal in that state:
(b) This section shall not be construed to supersede or limit the laws of any State that—
(1) permit private persons or entities to prohibit or restrict the possession of concealed firearms on their property; or
(2) prohibit or restrict the possession of firearms on any State or local government property, installation, building, base, or park
My point if the Fed's allow the following, why is state law trumping Federal?
LEOSA allows hollow point, Jersey doesn't
LEOSA allows magazines greater than 10, Jersey doesn't
Following implemented with new law
Active duty law enforcement traveling to New Jersey for non-work related reasons and carrying under Federal Law HR218 must carry 10 round magazines in their firearm while in the state of New Jersey.
Active duty law enforcement traveling through New Jersey for non-work related reasons and carrying under Federal Law HR218 may place magazines exceeding 10 rounds in a locked case in the trunk of their vehicle for transport through the state of New Jersey.
Retired law enforcement traveling to New Jersey and carrying under Federal Law HR218 must carry 10 round magazines in their firearm while in the state of New Jersey. Additionally, they must carry ball ammunition and are prohibited from carrying hollow point ammunition.
First, we couldn't have normal mags before, 15 rounds has been the limit since 1990 so anything over 15 rounds was "high cap" in NJ. We were screwed before, now we are effed in the A.
Second, NJ gun owners are by and large nothing but front holes. They won't do shit. Just like they haven't done shit since 1990.
Third, a later article said that the NJSP responded and said they had no interest in door to door searches.
Fourth, I'm going to be starting to look for a new job in NC in a month or two. F this state.
Come on down. We welcome hoploholic conservative voters.
Probably a good way to prevent fratricide, at least.
Back to NJ: Obviously a terrible idea on every front, but should they get preferential treatment other citizens don't? It was only a matter of time until they came after LE, but maybe that's the wake up needed for some to realize there's no limit nor end for the push to assure ALL citizens are not armed and the 2A ignored? NJ LEOs now have some real skin in the game and will now have an idea what it's like to be treated like a criminal even when it's their jobs to serve and protect. Also, many PDs policy is LEOS must be armed off duty. Ant NJ PDs with that rule? I guess they will have to transfer low cap mags for high cap once at work? Although most LEOs are not pro gin control and support the 2A, many also assume they'll not be impacted by anti gun anti 2A socialist paradise states. This again may be a wake up call for them, that sooner or later, they'll be in the same boat as the rest of us. Some countries do not allow their LE to have firearms at home, and I GUARANTEE you all that's the next step for such states, which, if successful, will work their way into others. The nations LE, along with non LE citizens, need to speak out on this, because you're/we're all next.
Back to NJ: Obviously a terrible idea on every front, but should they get preferential treatment other citizens don't? It was only a matter of time until they came after LE, but maybe that's the wake up needed for some to realize there's no limit nor end for the push to assure ALL citizens are not armed and the 2A ignored? NJ LEOs now have some real skin in the game and will now have an idea what it's like to be treated like a criminal even when it's their jobs to serve and protect. Also, many PDs policy is LEOS must be armed off duty. Ant NJ PDs with that rule? I guess they will have to transfer low cap mags for high cap once at work? Although most LEOs are not pro gin control and support the 2A, many also assume they'll not be impacted by anti gun anti 2A socialist paradise states. This again may be a wake up call for them, that sooner or later, they'll be in the same boat as the rest of us. Some countries do not allow their LE to have firearms at home, and I GUARANTEE you all that's the next step for such states, which, if successful, will work their way into others. The nations LE, along with non LE citizens, need to speak out on this, because you're/we're all next.
It seems like one incident where an off duty officer dies with their slide locked back might be enough to bring the entire mag ban into question in a way that a non-LEO death would not. But that assumes that off duty police actually fire their weapons within any frequency. If not, the actual impact to police will be similar to everyone else - an inconvenience.
Hmmmmmmmmm seems like the trolls are here with orders to drive all the ' controversial ' topics to a moderated lock up .
It seems like one incident where an off duty officer dies with their slide locked back might be enough to bring the entire mag ban into question in a way that a non-LEO death would not. But that assumes that off duty police actually fire their weapons within any frequency. If not, the actual impact to police will be similar to everyone else - an inconvenience.
Our Const Rights, the 2A in particular, eroding are made up of "inconveniences" that add up over time. Why would they stop there? Next, LE, like other countries, will have to leave their duty gun at work, and on it goes. If they can do that to LE, obviously non LE citizens will be additionally "inconvenienced" as it continues on. The burden of proof of course is on NJ et al to show doing that actually reduced crime, etc, and we know that's not gonna happen.
Our Const Rights, the 2A in particular, eroding are made up of "inconveniences" that add up over time. Why would they stop there? Next, LE, like other countries, will have to leave their duty gun at work, and on it goes. If they can do that to LE, obviously non LE citizens will be additionally "inconvenienced" as it continues on. The burden of proof of course is on NJ et al to show doing that actually reduced crime, etc, and we know that's not gonna happen.
I didn't say they would stop, nor did I say I'm okay with "inconveniences". I was referring to the real world impact to LE safety.
I really don't care for police being treated differently than everyone else. I don't see the logic. But I prefer all citizens having more liberty, not less.
My point if the Fed's allow the following, why is state law trumping Federal?
LEOSA allows hollow point, Jersey doesn't
LEOSA allows magazines greater than 10, Jersey doesn't
Incorrect.
LEOSA is silent on those issues. Thus applicable law from any jurisdiction applies.
I didn't say they would stop, nor did I say I'm okay with "inconveniences". I was referring to the real world impact to LE safety.
I really don't care for police being treated differently than everyone else. I don't see the logic. But I prefer all citizens having more liberty, not less.
Perhaps I misinterpreted your message.
Will, I don't think the legislature tried to screw LEOs. They were overzealous in their hatred of the Second Amendment and didn't pay attention. There is already legislation to make LEOs exempt, thereby creating a true two-tier systems. Just like Socialists like it. I have no doubt that it will pass and be signed into law. NJ politicians are evil, not dumb, they know they need the police unions on their side.
In the meantime, cops will protect each other. I can't see a single cop getting jammed up for this. I have seen plenty of cops in classes with personal 30rd AR mags when the limit on personal/non department issued mags was 15rds. Non of them seemed the least bit concerned.
Will, I don't think the legislature tried to screw LEOs. They were overzealous in their hatred of the Second Amendment and didn't pay attention. There is already legislation to make LEOs exempt, thereby creating a true two-tier systems. Just like Socialists like it. I have no doubt that it will pass and be signed into law. NJ politicians are evil, not dumb, they know they need the police unions on their side.
In the meantime, cops will protect each other. I can't see a single cop getting jammed up for this. I have seen plenty of cops in classes with personal 30rd AR mags when the limit on personal/non department issued mags was 15rds. Non of them seemed the least bit concerned.
Spot on 100%. Only way Jersey cop gets jammed up is if he is in a shooting O/D with it and prosecutor or Defense makes a big issue of it.
Will, I don't think the legislature tried to screw LEOs. They were overzealous in their hatred of the Second Amendment and didn't pay attention. There is already legislation to make LEOs exempt, thereby creating a true two-tier systems. Just like Socialists like it. I have no doubt that it will pass and be signed into law. NJ politicians are evil, not dumb, they know they need the police unions on their side.
In the meantime, cops will protect each other. I can't see a single cop getting jammed up for this. I have seen plenty of cops in classes with personal 30rd AR mags when the limit on personal/non department issued mags was 15rds. Non of them seemed the least bit concerned.
Righteous or not, it's a bad habit for police to get used to breaking the law and covering for each other - especially when they are not going to extend the courtesy to all citizens.
Will, I don't think the legislature tried to screw LEOs. They were overzealous in their hatred of the Second Amendment and didn't pay attention. There is already legislation to make LEOs exempt, thereby creating a true two-tier systems. Just like Socialists like it. I have no doubt that it will pass and be signed into law. NJ politicians are evil, not dumb, they know they need the police unions on their side.
In the meantime, cops will protect each other. I can't see a single cop getting jammed up for this. I have seen plenty of cops in classes with personal 30rd AR mags when the limit on personal/non department issued mags was 15rds. Non of them seemed the least bit concerned.
My only major point being, if they are able/willing to do that to LE, they sure as f-ark don't give a damn about the rest of us. That being a perfect example. Sure, doubt any cop will get jammed up over it, but that's a different issue in my view. I don't think it was an oversight on their part not to exclude LE, but a power play knowing the'd have to "fix" it while still taking ground. Ergo:
"However, the state would like to remind officers that they don't recognize the provisions of the federal Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act (LEOSA) which allows retired New Jersey officers to carry their weapons or hollow point ammunition.
According to the Attorney General's Office, LEOSA only applies to active and retired police officers who carry their firearms in interstate commerce. If a retired New Jersey officer remains in the state of New Jersey, they aren't engaging in interstate commerce, according to the AG's office, so New Jersey won't recognize the federal law."
As you said, " NJ politicians are evil, not dumb," and I think they're playing out a hand here. So they took X, knowing they'd have to give something back, netting a win that is another chip away in 2A Rights.
My only major point being, if they are able/willing to do that to LE, they sure as f-ark don't give a damn about the rest of us. That being a perfect example. Sure, doubt any cop will get jammed up over it, but that's a different issue in my view. I don't think it was an oversight on their part not to exclude LE, but a power play knowing the'd have to "fix" it while still taking ground. Ergo:
"However, the state would like to remind officers that they don't recognize the provisions of the federal Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act (LEOSA) which allows retired New Jersey officers to carry their weapons or hollow point ammunition.
According to the Attorney General's Office, LEOSA only applies to active and retired police officers who carry their firearms in interstate commerce. If a retired New Jersey officer remains in the state of New Jersey, they aren't engaging in interstate commerce, according to the AG's office, so New Jersey won't recognize the federal law."
As you said, " NJ politicians are evil, not dumb," and I think they're playing out a hand here. So they took X, knowing they'd have to give something back, netting a win that is another chip away in 2A Rights.
I think another factor at play here is states proactively fighting the usurpation of their powers by Federal law. Other states might have similar feelings about LEOSA in principle, but realize that bucking that particular infringement would anger the GOP base, despite the GOP base claiming to want less Federal intrusion on state's rights. In states that are more interested in LE reform than police veneration, this would be an expected result of Federal intrusion. It isn't necessarily thumbing their noses at police as much as pushing back against the Fed using a group that is unlikely to elicit voters' anger.
I think another factor at play here is states proactively fighting the usurpation of their powers by Federal law. Other states might have similar feelings about LEOSA in principle, but realize that bucking that particular infringement would anger the GOP base, despite the GOP base claiming to want less Federal intrusion on state's rights. In states that are more interested in LE reform than police veneration, this would be an expected result of Federal intrusion. It isn't necessarily thumbing their noses at police as much as pushing back against the Fed using a group that is unlikely to elicit voters' anger.
I can tell you various states in the NE will ignore LEOSA, and any out of state LEO who thinks he/she can't get jammed up due to being LEO, is incorrect. NJ. NYC, CT, MA, etc are well known for being complete A holes about LEOSA, even to other LEO passing through. No doubt, being an LEO helps in most cases, but I can tell you from feedback that it's far from gauruntee depending on who you get.
It seems like one incident where an off duty officer dies with their slide locked back might be enough to bring the entire mag ban into question in a way that a non-LEO death would not. But that assumes that off duty police actually fire their weapons within any frequency. If not, the actual impact to police will be similar to everyone else - an inconvenience.
The shoot till empty scenario would only bring a magazine ban in to scrutiny for police and no one else.
SeriousStudent
12-15-18, 22:33
Hmmmmmmmmm seems like the trolls are here with orders to drive all the ' controversial ' topics to a moderated lock up .
More like "stupid people gonna stupid". And by the way, feel free to use the report post button. You know, the one nobody uses because they would rather get into pissing contests, and get threads locked?
In a perfect world, I would not work for a living. I'd scan every thread, and nudge grown-ass men back onto the path of righteousness. But since some people can't be trusted with a keyboard, here we are.
But worry not, because some people are going to lose the ability to post in GD.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?161075-M4Carbine-net-General-Discussion-Policy-Enforcement
Dayum, all this based on an article that in totality said:
Breitbart News contacted New Jersey State Police on Monday to ask how they planned to enforce the newly enacted ban. We asked whether they would enforce it on a traffic-stop basis–checking magazines in firearms when they pulled over drivers for speeding, reckless driving, etc.–or whether they would enforce it by going to house-to-house to check magazine capacity........
The NJ State Police refused to rule out house-to-house checks. Rather, they responded: “We do not discuss enforcement strategies.”
And Breitbart turns that into "NJ State Police Refuse to Rule Out House-to-House Enforcement of High Capacity Magazine Ban"
Clearly, the article, which by the way is less than 250 words long, is an example of deliberately skewing the context of a response to write a deliberately provocative headline.
My head hurts.
Moose-Knuckle
12-16-18, 05:56
Most cops will enforce these new laws, and most Republican politicians will do nothing about them. Eventually, people will come to accept these new laws, just as they have with every other infringement from the past. The sad thing is, the gun control model of slowly chipping away at our rights is working, people are enforcing it, people aren't fighting it, the NRA doesn't care, and the only "resistance" is to bury your mags in a shoebox and wear a "punisher skull" T Shirt. If a line was ever going to be drawn in the sand, it would've been done in:
-1934
-1938
-1939
-1968
-1986
-1993
-1994
Our forefathers in the revolution are the only generation that did something about this. The rest of us, our great-grandfathers on down to our sons, just roll over, take it, and then talk big game about "III%" on gun forums.
The American Revolution went critical mass when the Crown marched on Lexington and Concord to confiscate small-arms.
Since that time I cannot recall in our history a nation wide confiscation effort on anything but gold bullion and coinage.
During the Prohibition era there was never a door to door effort to confiscate the devil's candy from Mr. and Mrs. America. NOLA post Katrina is the only time I can recall that gun confiscation happened.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-16-18, 06:16
Dayum, all this based on an article that in totality said:
Breitbart News contacted New Jersey State Police on Monday to ask how they planned to enforce the newly enacted ban. We asked whether they would enforce it on a traffic-stop basis–checking magazines in firearms when they pulled over drivers for speeding, reckless driving, etc.–or whether they would enforce it by going to house-to-house to check magazine capacity........
The NJ State Police refused to rule out house-to-house checks. Rather, they responded: “We do not discuss enforcement strategies.”
And Breitbart turns that into "NJ State Police Refuse to Rule Out House-to-House Enforcement of High Capacity Magazine Ban"
Clearly, the article, which by the way is less than 250 words long, is an example of deliberately skewing the context of a response to write a deliberately provocative headline.
My head hurts.
Nuh-uh! Didn't you read a few pages back where a poster said Breitbart has never posted fake news?!?! How can this be?!?
I am often intrigued by Breitbart headlines, only to find that I was swindled by clickbait and the article contained no substance.
Moose-Knuckle
12-16-18, 06:22
Hmmmmmmmmm seems like the trolls are here with orders to drive all the ' controversial ' topics to a moderated lock up .
Yeah I don't see what "gay rights" and women being able to legally have their children murdered has got to with a magazine ban / registration in NJ either.
But, yeah . . . :blink:
Dr. Bullseye
12-16-18, 11:58
If law enforcement can go door to door and look for anything or stop you in your vehicle and check for anything, why can't they go door to door and stop vehicles checking for immigration status?
Averageman
12-16-18, 12:55
Hmmmmmmmmm seems like the trolls are here with orders to drive all the ' controversial ' topics to a moderated lock up .
Interesting thought, it might appear so.
If law enforcement can go door to door and look for anything or stop you in your vehicle and check for anything, why can't they go door to door and stop vehicles checking for immigration status?
But they can't "go door to door and look for anything or stop you in your vehicle and check for anything" nor can they randomly pull people over and ask for proof of status without probable cause. Within 100 miles of the border, "100-mile zone" Border Patrol agents have certain additional authorities, so that last part may not apply within 100 miles of the border at relates to Border Patrol agents as i understand it. Obviously, many feel that "100-mile zone" issue is unconstitutional as hell.
But they can't "go door to door and look for anything or stop you in your vehicle and check for anything" nor can they randomly pull people over and ask for proof of status. Within 100 miles of the border, "100-mile zone" Border Patrol agents have certain additional authorities, so that last part may not apply within 100 miles of the border at relates to Border Patrol agents as i understand it. Obviously, many feel that "100-mile zone" issue is unconstitutional as hell.
Seizing bump stocks without compensation would seem to be also, but that is quite the popular one these days.
They just have to bend some words apparently.
https://lawcenter.giffords.org/the-takings-clause-not-an-obstacle-to-smart-gun-laws/
If law enforcement can go door to door and look for anything or stop you in your vehicle and check for anything, why can't they go door to door and stop vehicles checking for immigration status?
They can do none of those things without probable cause to do so. Nor has it been stated anywhere that they can do that in New Jersey (except on the internet and implied by Breitbart).
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-16-18, 15:54
They can do none of those things without probable cause to do so. Nor has it been stated anywhere that they can do that in New Jersey (except on the internet and implied by Breitbart).
Ya but it's more to fun to just read headlines and get outraged than rely on facts.
So how are they going to enforce it exactly?
Nuh-uh! Didn't you read a few pages back where a poster said Breitbart has never posted fake news?!?! How can this be?!?
I am often intrigued by Breitbart headlines, only to find that I was swindled by clickbait and the article contained no substance.
Clickbait, that is the word I was looking for.
If law enforcement can go door to door and look for anything or stop you in your vehicle and check for anything, why can't they go door to door and stop vehicles checking for immigration status?
Because they can't go to door and look for anything. The police, just like anyone, can come up, knock on your door, and ask to talk to you. If you say "no, right now I'm busy," and they persist, or, they ask if they can step inside to talk 'out of the weather,' ask if they have a search warrant. If they don't have a warrant, you don't have let them enter or speak to them. That be the law.
Now, I can pretty much guarantee you that in my state LE knows those basic rules when they leave the academy. Based on what I've seen on youtube and heard talked about on sites like this, I am not so sure about other states.
I shit you not, we once had a veteran officer who was coming from another state and attending our two week reciprocity course, ask an instructor 'The 4th Amendment, is it in every state?' One of the reasons that about half of the two weeks in reciprocity is spent on Constitutional law.
As for this statement: stop you in your vehicle and check for anything That is true within a limited scope for U.S Border Patrol Agents within 100 AIR miles of the border, read about it here:
https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/1084/~/legal-authority-for-the-border-patrol
Likewise, within specific parameters, local law enforcement can set up checkpoints, usually for DUI detection. Read about the rules here, this Wiki article isn't bad: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random_checkpoint
Law Enforcement officers at check points generally can't search your vehicle unless they have probable cause such as a drug dog alert, or the officer's observation of something in plain view.
As far as Officer Jones stopping you while he is on patrol he has to have reasonable suspicion or probable cause that you are doing something illegal, he can't just say 'hey I want to stop the guy' and turn on the lights. When you are on foot it is the same thing, an officer can walking alongside you and talk to you, just like anyone else can, but he can't impede you or stop you absent reasonable suspicion or probable cause.
Reasonable Suspicion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_suspicion
Probable Cause: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probable_cause
A cop article on Reasonable Suspicion vs. Probable Cause: http://www.policemag.com/channel/patrol/articles/2011/06/probable-cause-and-reasonable-suspicion.aspx
Once again, I can pretty much guarantee you that in my state LE knows the difference between RS and PC when they leave the academy. Based on what I've seen on youtube and heard talked about on sites like this, I am not so sure about other states.
The right of the Citizen to be secure from unreasonable searches and seizures is one of our most fundamental and precious rights, it has always enraged me (not to strong of a term to use) when I see the 4th abused by fellow LEO's. The Courts have given LE tremendous power in the furtherance of their duties, I wish officers were more cerebral about the application of that power.
So how are they going to enforce it exactly?
I would imagine that there won't be a concerted effort, but then again, I don't live in New Jersey. I'd say the most common way will be when officer's come across them during other activities such as searches incident to arrest, plain view seizures on traffic stops, during consent searches, or warrant searches.
Legally, that is just about it.
I would imagine that there won't be a concerted effort, but then again, I don't live in New Jersey. I'd say the most common way will be when officer's come across them during other activities such as searches incident to arrest, plain view seizures on traffic stops, during consent searches, or warrant searches.
Legally, that is just about it.
Agreed. Except for the plain view part. Mags in. NJ have to be in the trunk or otherwise inaccessible to the driver since they are considered part of the gun.
Also I imagine A-Hole RSO's calling the cops on customers or cops at the range seeing 10-15rd mags and calling in their buddies.
What about all the vehicle traffic stops where the Officer has his trusty K-9 who happens to trigger on the vehicle? No drugs or anything of an illegal limit, but guess what - a 30 round Magpul is found. Lots of busts for thing that were never the original reason for the stop or search.
I've wondered that without actual video evidence, how many K-9 triggers on a vehicle that were actually not a valid trigger, just to permit a probable cause search?
https://www.ammoland.com/2018/12/legal-guidance-what-nj-police-come-for-gun-magazines/#axzz5ZgZM4q6P
Some further info.
What about all the vehicle traffic stops where the Officer has his trusty K-9 who happens to trigger on the vehicle? No drugs or anything of an illegal limit, but guess what - a 30 round Magpul is found. Lots of busts for thing that were never the original reason for the stop or search.
I've wondered that without actual video evidence, how many K-9 triggers on a vehicle that were actually not a valid trigger, just to permit a probable cause search?
Pretty sure that in most cases the result would be mag gone bye bye. The thing with a certified dog alerting is that it gives the officer probable cause to search for whatever substance caused the dog to alert, in this case drugs. Drugs can be hidden in very small areas, so it would be very easy for the officer to come across the mag in a search for drugs. The courts have held such items can be seized and used to prosecute.
One of the recent 'big dog' drug dog cases is Florida v. Harris. In that finding the SCOTUS unanimously upheld a 'false' hit on a vehicle that was found to contain the precursors to methamphetamine, but no meth. The dog hadn't been trained to alert to psuedoephedrine, which was what the officer found.
The Court noted that false alerts may not be false, that drugs may have been present which the officer failed to find during his search. They also noted that drugs could have previously been in the vehicle, or on a person and the dog reacted to those residual odors.
They also noted one of the safeguards built into our criminal justice system, the preliminary hearing, where the defendant can present their case as to why the dog's alert did not rise to the level of probable cause in their case.
It takes a lot of work to keep a drug dog certified, even then the dogs aren't infallible, and I'm sure there is a very, very, small percentage of corrupt handlers who either fudge records or actually signal their dogs to alert.
Million Plus NJ Gun Owners Defy State Law, Refuse to Turn Over Banned Gun Mags
Over one million New Jersey Gun owners defy Governor Murphy's gun magazine ban & turn in demands of what some estimate is easily more than ten million now illegal standard capacity gun mags.
From all Reports, NO Mags Turned In, Governor Murphy & His Law are Joke
AmmoLand also asked the Governor's office what Gov. Murphy thinks of users on the internet saying that the ban is unenforceable and laughing at the Governor's attempt at regulating magazine sizes.
Gov. Murphy and his office refused to comment on these gun owner's opinions.
AmmoLand also asked Gov. Murphy's office about the number of magazines turned in by New Jersey residents. Once again AmmoLand was referred to the New Jersey Attorney General's office.
In this case, Lauchaire would not offer a comment and referred AmmoLand to the New Jersey State Police. Lauchaire stated she was aware of AmmoLand's previous inquire to the State Police on the number of magazines turned in meaning that State Police contacted the AG’s office about our request for information.
The New Jersey State Police have not officially responded to our request on the number of magazines that were turned over by citizens.
Two sources from within the State Police, who spoke to AmmoLand on condition of anonymity, told AmmoLand News that they both do not know of any magazines turned over to their agency and doubted that any were turned in. They also stated that the State Police also engaged the AG's office for guidance on how to respond to inquiries such as ours. They were unaware if the Attorney General has returned to their request for guidance.
All the local police departments that AmmoLand contacted stated that they have not had any magazines turned into them.
AmmoLand has filed a Freedom of Information Act request with The New Jersey State Police to get an official count of the number of magazines turned in by New Jersey citizens. We will update the story if our FOIA request is fulfilled..........................
https://www.ammoland.com/2018/12/ne...zqiSde_H4FxbRUrXVC55cn6zSo504WY#axzz5ZgDaD7aT
I didn't want to come across as anti LE, which I am not, but the normal traffic stop could escalate to something else, and the magazine ends up being the big bust, the license plate light gets quickly forgotten. Thanks for the case history on this!!!
Maybe I'm watching Live PD too much? My only LE experience locally is the Sheriff's Mounted Posse for mountain/wilderness rescue and fugitive tracking. I get deputized for that sort of thing.
Pretty sure that in most cases the result would be mag gone bye bye. The thing with a certified dog alerting is that it gives the officer probable cause to search for whatever substance caused the dog to alert, in this case drugs. Drugs can be hidden in very small areas, so it would be very easy for the officer to come across the mag in a search for drugs. The courts have held such items can be seized and used to prosecute.
One of the recent 'big dog' drug dog cases is Florida v. Harris. In that finding the SCOTUS unanimously upheld a 'false' hit on a vehicle that was found to contain the precursors to methamphetamine, but no meth. The dog hadn't been trained to alert to psuedoephedrine, which was what the officer found.
The Court noted that false alerts may not be false, that drugs may have been present which the officer failed to find during his search. They also noted that drugs could have previously been in the vehicle, or on a person and the dog reacted to those residual odors.
They also noted one of the safeguards built into our criminal justice system, the preliminary hearing, where the defendant can present their case as to why the dog's alert did not rise to the level of probable cause in their case.
It takes a lot of work to keep a drug dog certified, even then the dogs aren't infallible, and I'm sure there is a very, very, small percentage of corrupt handlers who either fudge records or actually signal their dogs to alert.
FromMyColdDeadHand
12-16-18, 21:40
Maybe I'm watching Live PD too much? My only LE experience locally is the Sheriff's Mounted Posse for mountain/wilderness rescue and fugitive tracking. I get deputized for that sort of thing.
Just when I couldn't think that your life could get any cooler, you casually drop in that you Wyatt Earp it from time to time.
I didn't want to come across as anti LE, which I am not, but the normal traffic stop could escalate to something else, and the magazine ends up being the big bust, the license plate light gets quickly forgotten. Thanks for the case history on this!!!
Maybe I'm watching Live PD too much? My only LE experience locally is the Sheriff's Mounted Posse for mountain/wilderness rescue and fugitive tracking. I get deputized for that sort of thing.
Well, if it is a plain view seizure, the officer needs to remember the tag light in the report to establish a basis for the stop. I would suggest writing a ticket for whatever violation the officer stopped the vehicle for if a stop turns into something else.
The courts call stops made for an investigative reason other than the traffic offense pretextual stops. They are legal so long as the reason for the initial stop was real. In the example you gave, it is perfectly legal for the officer to stop you for the tag light, even if the real reason he wanted to stop you was to see if he could see a 30 round magazine laying in plain view.
I have no problem with the legality of pretextual stops as long as they aren't abused, unfortunately by their very nature they are ripe for abuse.
Let's say an officer is interested in stopping folks to check for those 30 round magazines. What would most folks think are indicators of gun ownership, and therefore possible possession of those demon 30 round magazines? White male? Ball cap? Bushy moustache? Shaved head? Beard? Pickup truck? NRA or other gun related sticker?
So when the officer is monitoring traffic flowing along I-70 is he going to stop the minivan going 78 in a 70, or the guy in the pickup with the NRA sticker who is wearing a ball cap, driving 74 and being passed by every freaking vehicle on the roadway? I'm betting that our magazine interdiction hero (the officer) is going to pull over Mr. Ball Cap, who is calmly driving his pickup along, at 74 because, you know 74 is still a violation.
Welcome to the profile.
I have a big time gun owning friend in the vicinity of Atlantic Highlands, New Jersey. This person commutes daily to Manhattan. In a discussion tonight, this person indicated that the circle of gun owners known to this person has been buying up 10 round California compliant mags for each handgun or rifle if available. The 14, 15, 17, 20 and 30+ round magazines are being stashed in well hidden locations, awaiting better laws or a move to a better locale. They have no intention of destroying, disposing of or surrendering their legally purchased property.
This is classic American response to government abuse in our society - evade and avoid. Should be a good business for the vendors of California compliant mags.
PatrioticDisorder
12-17-18, 05:46
Because they can't go to door and look for anything. The police, just like anyone, can come up, knock on your door, and ask to talk to you. If you say "no, right now I'm busy," and they persist, or, they ask if they can step inside to talk 'out of the weather,' ask if they have a search warrant. If they don't have a warrant, you don't have let them enter or speak to them. That be the law.
Now, I can pretty much guarantee you that in my state LE knows those basic rules when they leave the academy. Based on what I've seen on youtube and heard talked about on sites like this, I am not so sure about other states.
I shit you not, we once had a veteran officer who was coming from another state and attending our two week reciprocity course, ask an instructor 'The 4th Amendment, is it in every state?' One of the reasons that about half of the two weeks in reciprocity is spent on Constitutional law.
As for this statement: stop you in your vehicle and check for anything That is true within a limited scope for U.S Border Patrol Agents within 100 AIR miles of the border, read about it here:
https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/1084/~/legal-authority-for-the-border-patrol
Likewise, within specific parameters, local law enforcement can set up checkpoints, usually for DUI detection. Read about the rules here, this Wiki article isn't bad: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random_checkpoint
Law Enforcement officers at check points generally can't search your vehicle unless they have probable cause such as a drug dog alert, or the officer's observation of something in plain view.
As far as Officer Jones stopping you while he is on patrol he has to have reasonable suspicion or probable cause that you are doing something illegal, he can't just say 'hey I want to stop the guy' and turn on the lights. When you are on foot it is the same thing, an officer can walking alongside you and talk to you, just like anyone else can, but he can't impede you or stop you absent reasonable suspicion or probable cause.
Reasonable Suspicion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_suspicion
Probable Cause: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probable_cause
A cop article on Reasonable Suspicion vs. Probable Cause: http://www.policemag.com/channel/patrol/articles/2011/06/probable-cause-and-reasonable-suspicion.aspx
Once again, I can pretty much guarantee you that in my state LE knows the difference between RS and PC when they leave the academy. Based on what I've seen on youtube and heard talked about on sites like this, I am not so sure about other states.
The right of the Citizen to be secure from unreasonable searches and seizures is one of our most fundamental and precious rights, it has always enraged me (not to strong of a term to use) when I see the 4th abused by fellow LEO's. The Courts have given LE tremendous power in the furtherance of their duties, I wish officers were more cerebral about the application of that power.
What if you came upon a non NFA registered machine gun in Kansas, you have the second amendment protection act in your state, how would you handle that?
You guys need to stop saying 30's. We have been stuck with 15s [legally] since 1990. If you had a 30 before Dec 10th 2018 it was just as illegal in NJ as it is after. I haven't known the joy of having a 30rd magazine since I got into the hobby. With a couple notable exceptions: 1. An LEO handed me a 30rd mag when I ran out of ammo at a Costa Carbine class in 2017 and 2. when I take classes in PA the instructor is nice enough to loan me 30rd AR and AK mags.
You guys need to stop saying 30's. We have been stuck with 15s [legally] since 1990. If you had a 30 before Dec 10th 2018 it was just as illegal in NJ as it is after. I haven't known the joy of having a 30rd magazine since I got into the hobby. With a couple notable exceptions: 1. An LEO handed me a 30rd mag when I ran out of ammo at a Costa Carbine class in 2017 and 2. when I take classes in PA the instructor is nice enough to loan me 30rd AR and AK mags.
From what I have been told, there are still plenty of magazines in the State which exceed the 15 round limit. Contraband has been making it into Jersey for quite a while, and probably still comes in via the trunks of cars or a spouse's handbag. Americans are good at ignoring laws they don't agree with.
Up until June 2016 French Police were not allowed to carry firearms when off-duty. Due to the increase in terrorist attacks and a Police officer murdered in his house by a terrorist, as of June 2016, they can carry off duty. France, where guns are generally banned, moved towards letting the Police carry when not on duty, whereas NJ is restricting off-duty Police carry. Does NJ think these restrictions will make it safer to live in NJ. France found that was not the case in France and uses off-duty Police as a force multiplier. Or maybe NJ thinks their Police are not as good as the French Police.NJ thinks off duty isn't as good as on duty.
Sent from my G8341 using Tapatalk
NJ thinks off duty isn't as good as on duty.
Sent from my G8341 using Tapatalk
Still better than average private citizens who are apparently viewed somewhere between livestock and vermin.
WickedWillis
12-17-18, 14:31
NC is rapidly turning "blue". Virginia is basically "blue" now. Colorado is now California politically. Utah isn't far off. Washington is full leftist and Idaho isn't completely safe. Texas is 2-3 election cycles from being purple at best. A lot of states that were supposedly solidly conservative aren't any more. I agree with your sentiment but I think the era of moving to where you like the politics better is over, and it's time people need to dig in and defend what's right.
Idaho is very safe IMO.
From what I have been told, there are still plenty of magazines in the State which exceed the 15 round limit. Contraband has been making it into Jersey for quite a while, and probably still comes in via the trunks of cars or a spouse's handbag. Americans are good at ignoring laws they don't agree with.
I know not of what you speak....
ramairthree
12-17-18, 15:58
I used to think Maine, NH, and VT were ironclad safe.
Vermont has one of the most no way to BS around what was meant versions of the 2A af any state I have seen. And this is within the shortest overall constitution of any state. I believe basically modified from when it was a sovereign nation to change over into a state. It belonged to France. Then France was stuck giving it to GB. Then NH and NY, and I think MA were fighting over their various claims to it. In the middle of the Revolution they gave the middle finger to surrounding states and the double middle finger to GB. It was established as a republic in 1777. While they fought the British in the revolutionary war, the continental congress told them to STFU they were New York. They double middle fingered the Union of the USA and almost became an independent recognized province of Quebec. Yep, the French Colony of Canada, now the province of Quebec, via GB, recognizing Vermont as an independent state was unpalatable enough to the USA that they relented and recognized them as the 14th state in 1791.
Despite the modern version of Ben and Jerry’s eating college town and hippie town LL Bean fantasy living, Bernie loving, soft pukes you see now, the dying core of Vermont is rural, harsh winter, rough terrain, hard as woodpecker lips, stubborn, contrarian, pain in the ass, don’t F around, won’t do it simply because someone told them to, MFers.
Their Republic Constitution was modified to a state constitution. They did not leave any ambiguity regarding police, arms, etc.
“That the people of this state by their legal representatives, have the sole, inherent, and exclusive right of governing and regulating the internal police of the same.
That all power being originally inherent in and co[n]sequently derived from the people, therefore, all officers of government, whether legislative or executive, are their trustees and servants; and at all times, in a legal way, accountable to them.
That the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the State--and as standing armies in time of peace are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to be kept up; and that the military should be kept under strict subordination to and governed by the civil power.
That no person in this state can in any case be subjected to law martial, or to any penalties or pains by virtue of that law except those employed in the army, and the militia in actual service.“
But look what has happened.
ramairthree
12-17-18, 15:58
There are a lot of places I used to think were safe.
From what I have been told, there are still plenty of magazines in the State which exceed the 15 round limit. Contraband has been making it into Jersey for quite a while, and probably still comes in via the trunks of cars or a spouse's handbag. Americans are good at ignoring laws they don't agree with.
Or simply shipped in U.S. Priority mail boxes....
Here in Northeastern New Mexico during the Prohibition years, there were many more bootleggers in Texas than here. Product crossing Texas into New Mexico was common, and several County Sheriffs looked the other way because they were getting a cut of the profit.
I was in Las Vegas, New Mexico this morning at a local eatery for breakfast. My associates and I were discussing the in-coming Devilcrat governor and her plans for magazine bans and limits. The consensus was that nobody was going to go along with such a ban and will just work around it. This is a blue State, but a lot of the politicians are gun owners and pretty independent. It will be interesting to see what Santa Fe can actually accomplish. In my case they will accomplish nothing.
What if you came upon a non NFA registered machine gun in Kansas, you have the second amendment protection act in your state, how would you handle that?
I'm a retired citizen, so if I thought he was going to go all Baby Face Nelson with it, I'd notify the local guys. Otherwise, since I don't believe that Kansas's Second Amendment Protection Act is any more legal than legalization of a schedule 1 drug by Colorado, I'd tell the guy that if I was him I'd be rethinking showing the thing in public until the NFA changes.
Personally, I have no problem with MJ, machine guns, SBR's or suppressors, but the current law of the land says otherwise.
Right now, if I was a New Jersey police officer I would go out of my way not to see the capacity of any magazines in the possession of otherwise law abiding citizens.
When gun bans come to Middle America; Middle Americans should go to Chicago and DC.
Moose-Knuckle
12-18-18, 03:09
But they can't "go door to door and look for anything or stop you in your vehicle and check for anything" nor can they randomly pull people over and ask for proof of status without probable cause. Within 100 miles of the border, "100-mile zone" Border Patrol agents have certain additional authorities, so that last part may not apply within 100 miles of the border at relates to Border Patrol agents as i understand it. Obviously, many feel that "100-mile zone" issue is unconstitutional as hell.
IIRC did LE not go door to door in a Watertown, MA looking for Dzhokhar Tsarnaev in the wake of the marathon bombing?
No PC, no warrants, just a bunch of knock-knock and automatic rifles all around. There was even a photo of a sniper in a Lenco BearCat's turret providing over watch for the search teams who trained his rifle on the unarmed photographer from his second story bedroom window.
IIRC did LE not go door to door in a Watertown, MA looking for Dzhokhar Tsarnaev in the wake of the marathon bombing?
No PC, no warrants, just a bunch of knock-knock and automatic rifles all around. There was even a photo of a sniper in a Lenco BearCat's turret providing over watch for the search teams who trained his rifle on the unarmed photographer from his second story bedroom window.”Exigent circumstances”...immediate threat to public safety.Watertown’s frantic search for a known terrorist on the loose is not the same thing as a door-to-door ransacking of houses to search for contraband that does not pose an immediate threat. Not the same thing at all.
During the 10 years of the AWB (1993-2003) in a city of 400,000 + never was a case with "LEO" only magazines possessed by "citizens" There were plenty found and even the ATFE could care less. It wasn't even tacked on with the original charges. I know this is slightly different. Last time I was in NJ, out of 25 coppers, not one knew if 15 rounds was the limit or if hollow points were legal.
”Exigent circumstances”...immediate threat to public safety.Watertown’s frantic search for a known terrorist on the loose is not the same thing as a door-to-door ransacking of houses to search for contraband that does not pose an immediate threat. Not the same thing at all.
So they only need to wait for a violent crime and have a perpetrator escape the scene or have reason to believe that may have happened.
So they only need to wait for a violent crime and have a perpetrator escape the scene or have reason to believe that may have happened.
That unlikely scenario isn't going to form a basis for the ongoing door-to-door warrantless searches that Breitbart implies in its latest sky-might-be-falling attempt at hysteria induction in those who are susceptible.
That unlikely scenario isn't going to form a basis for the ongoing door-to-door warrantless searches that Breitbart implies in its latest sky-might-be-falling attempt at hysteria induction in those who are susceptible.
Violent crimes happen frequently and perpetrators leave the scene and/or police indicate they believe that perpetrators have left the scene so it isn't an unlikely scenario by any stretch of the imagination.
Breitbart isn't even a drop in the bucket compared to the sky is falling claims made by the groups wanting the magazine ban. Not to mention the ban proponents back their claims up with action against their targets.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-18-18, 10:15
So they only need to wait for a violent crime and have a perpetrator escape the scene or have reason to believe that may have happened.
LOL! We've got a killer on the loose boys, start kicking in doors and spending 3-5 hours per house meticulously searching for magazines, I mean the killer! While we're at it, we have all of our manpower tide up in this now 24/7 search for mags, I mean a killer, and we literally cannot respond to any calls for service. I'm sure the mayor, council, commissioners, media, voting public, etc. will all be pleased when they find out we let numerous sex assaults, traffic accidents, menacing in progress calls, vehicle thefts, kidnapped children, suspicious persons at the elementary school, emergent medical calls where fire/ems will not respond due to scene safety, etc all go unanswered in our quest to find mags, I mean the killer!
I don't come to GD to defend LE, but I do come to defend common sense. This thread has a few all-out assaults on common sense. Tragic.
LOL! We've got a killer on the loose boys, start kicking in doors and spending 3-5 hours per house meticulously searching for magazines, I mean the killer! While we're at it, we have all of our manpower tide up in this now 24/7 search for mags, I mean a killer, and we literally cannot respond to any calls for service. I'm sure the mayor, council, commissioners, media, voting public, etc. will all be pleased when they find out we let numerous sex assaults, traffic accidents, menacing in progress calls, vehicle thefts, kidnapped children, suspicious persons at the elementary school, emergent medical calls where fire/ems will not respond due to scene safety, etc all go unanswered in our quest to find mags, I mean the killer!
I don't come to GD to defend LE, but I do come to defend common sense. This thread has a few all-out assaults on common sense. Tragic.
Honest dealings would preclude a magazine ban and other 2nd Amendment infringements in the first place.
We have a front row seat to their perpetual dishonesty and the ever changing, downward spiral of what they refer to as "common sense" on the issue.
FromMyColdDeadHand
12-18-18, 10:30
Honest dealings would preclude a magazine ban and other 2nd Amendment infringements in the first place.
We have a front row seat to their perpetual dishonesty and the ever changing, downward spiral of what they refer to as "common sense" on the issue.
How common sense can they be if people are commonly not complying?
How common sense can they be if people are commonly not complying?
I am not the one referring to any of their actions as "common sense".
*Incoming House Democrats Ready Bill to Criminalize Private Gun Sales*
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2018/12/17/incoming-house-democrats-ready-bill-criminalize-private-gun-sales/
Councilmember O’Connor, who purportedly authored the anti-gun proposals, took a similar tack, stating that Pittsburgh “must seize the opportunity to make a real difference by partnering with other municipalities in the Commonwealth and cities across America to enact” gun restrictions.
The Constitution of the United States is now under assault by the cities and states. You don't need the amendment process any more. You just have to band together and say this or that provision in the Constitution is gone, and poof... it is.
Hypothetically, on a new firearm purchased from an FFL Gunshop/dealer **before** a law like this would go in effect, unless you are dumb enough to sell a firearm to an undercover donut eater or a wired nark. But, on a one on one FTF *cash only* transaction it is the buyers word vs the sellers *as to when* and between who the sale took place, because there is no paper trail as far as the money part is concerned. Of course, you would also want to be sure there are no text messages, phone calls or emails, etc. that could come back to bite you. A law like this will not stop or solve anything, it will just drive sales underground and illegal gun sales of all kinds will just metastasize. But get your ammo now, as that area *could* see added taxes, quantity and bullet type limits and more red tape at some point in the future.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-18-18, 11:21
I am not the one referring to any of their actions as "common sense".
I never referred to "their" actions as common sense. I am saying your post lacked it, with all due respect.
Gun control has no common sense. But, it doesn't help fighting it to write or say untrue/ridiculous things. The truth and facts are all we have on our side.
Violent crimes happen frequently and perpetrators leave the scene and/or police indicate they believe that perpetrators have left the scene so it isn't an unlikely scenario by any stretch of the imagination.
Breitbart isn't even a drop in the bucket compared to the sky is falling claims made by the groups wanting the magazine ban. Not to mention the ban proponents back their claims up with action against their targets.
Nah. I disagree. With all due respect.
I never referred to "their" actions as common sense. I am saying your post lacked it, with all due respect.
Gun control has no common sense. But, it doesn't help fighting it to write or say untrue/ridiculous things. The truth and facts are all we have on our side.
Unfortunately, the other "Side" doesn't care for truth and facts when they don't fit their opinion/emotion/agenda. So they are all but meaningless in the fight for our Rights and our future.
Also, unfortunate as it is, common sense isn't common, nor is good sense in general a common thing.
Nah. I disagree. With all due respect.
You are free to do so.
I do have to wonder how Breitbart raises their funding beyond that of the state of New Jersey and enforces their positions on others though since I was incorrect on those details.
I never referred to "their" actions as common sense. I am saying your post lacked it, with all due respect.
Gun control has no common sense. But, it doesn't help fighting it to write or say untrue/ridiculous things. The truth and facts are all we have on our side.
So why are they suddenly going to switch to common sense or honest means now that they are in a position to enforce their whims?
*Incoming House Democrats Ready Bill to Criminalize Private Gun Sales*
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2018/12/17/incoming-house-democrats-ready-bill-criminalize-private-gun-sales/
Hypothetically, on a new firearm purchased from an FFL Gunshop/dealer **before** a law like this would go in effect, unless you are dumb enough to sell a firearm to an undercover donut eater or a wired nark. But, on a one on one FTF *cash only* transaction it is the buyers word vs the sellers *as to when* and between who the sale took place, because there is no paper trail as far as the money part is concerned. Of course, you would also want to be sure there are no text messages, phone calls or emails, etc. that could come back to bite you. A law like this will not stop or solve anything, it will just drive sales underground and illegal gun sales of all kinds will just metastasize. But get your ammo now, as that area *could* see added taxes, quantity and bullet type limits and more red tape at some point in the future.
You're assuming this isn't the goal. It very much is the goal.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-18-18, 11:45
So why are they suddenly going to switch to common sense or honest means now that they are in a position to enforce their whims?
Did I say they were?
Let me spell this out plainly for you:
LE does not have the resources, time, manpower, or authority for door-to-door raids for contraband.
Does that make sense to you now?
Did I say they were?
Let me spell this out plainly for you:
LE does not have the resources, time, manpower, or authority for door-to-door raids for contraband.
Does that make sense to you now?
We can hope you are right. The catch is the whole dishonest from the start thing. How many communities claim to be destitute, but can muster the funds for some special task force focusing on firearms? Kind of a big screen t.v. and I Phone for that poor and down trodden segment of society.
Did I say they were?
Let me spell this out plainly for you:
LE does not have the resources, time, manpower, or authority for door-to-door raids for contraband.
Does that make sense to you now?
We can hope you are right. The catch is the whole dishonest from the start thing. How many communities claim to be destitute, but can muster the funds for some special task force focusing on firearms? Kind of a big screen t.v. and I Phone for that poor and down trodden of that segment of society.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-18-18, 12:56
We can hope you are right. The catch is the whole dishonest from the start thing. How many communities claim to be destitute, but can muster the funds for some special task force focusing on firearms? Kind of a big screen t.v. and I Phone for that poor and down trodden of that segment of society.
I can see I'm dealing with my intellectual superior. I'll now bow out of this mentally stimulating discussion.
Thank you for showing me just how over funded our local law enforcement is.
Look at how history repeats itself with variations for the contemporary era. The word speakeasy is found with this definition in the Urban Dictionary:
"A place where alcohol could be "safely" purchased during the era of prohibition in the USA".
In the new "speakeasy" establishments which will crop up all over the Country, just substitute word alcohol with firearms, ammo and accessories. I'm ready.....
Did I say they were?
Let me spell this out plainly for you:
LE does not have the resources, time, manpower, or authority for door-to-door raids for contraband.
Does that make sense to you now?
This.
Don't know how it is in Jersey, but where I am at LE barely have enough personnel to cover calls for service. I would wager much of the rest of the country is the same.
It is going to be interesting to watch how they plan to proceed once the reality of non-compliance sets in.
This.
Don't know how it is in Jersey, but where I am at LE barely have enough personnel to cover calls for service. I would wager much of the rest of the country is the same.
It is going to be interesting to watch how they plan to proceed once the reality of non-compliance sets in.
As I alluded to above, that's the plan. Create a new class of felons, but spend no resources on them. Making felons is the goal, not the side-effect. :(
FromMyColdDeadHand
12-18-18, 16:34
This.
Don't know how it is in Jersey, but where I am at LE barely have enough personnel to cover calls for service. I would wager much of the rest of the country is the same.
It is going to be interesting to watch how they plan to proceed once the reality of non-compliance sets in.
They will arrest and prosecute the people they find. Kind of like a reverse lottery.
Yeah, they ain't going door to door looking for mags just like they don't go door to door looking for meth...They'll wait for mags to come to them. Then they'll stack 19 felony charges on the poor schmuck, seize (aka steal) all his shit via asset forfeiture, stick him with an overworked shitty public defender who gives 0 ****s, then use the 19 felonies as leverage to get him to plead to something rather than take the case to trial. Honorable Judge Alcoholic will tell him that by accepting the plea he waives a bunch of rights and ask him if he understands. He'll say yes, because what other choice does he have. Honorable Judge Alcoholic will bang the gavel. Done and done. On to the next.
As I alluded to above, that's the plan. Create a new class of felons, but spend no resources on them. Making felons is the goal, not the side-effect. :(
Agreed. That's why it will be interesting to watch it unfold, and not just in New Jersey but nationwide in the coming months/years.
I just don't see the whole door to door thing happening, to many logistical/legal pitfalls.
But what do I know. I am continually amazed at what people will allow them selves to be subject to in today's world.
Yeah, they ain't going door to door looking for mags just like they don't go door to door looking for meth...They'll wait for mags to come to them. Then they'll stack 19 felony charges on the poor schmuck, seize (aka steal) all his shit via asset forfeiture, stick him with an overworked shitty public defender who gives 0 ****s, then use the 19 felonies as leverage to get him to plead to something rather than take the case to trial. Honorable Judge Alcoholic will tell him that by accepting the plea he waives a bunch of rights and ask him if he understands. He'll say yes, because what other choice does he have. Honorable Judge Alcoholic will bang the gavel. Done and done. On to the next.
Winner, winner, big chicken dinner. :(
Meanwhile, the NJ Assembly unanimously passed the exemption for LEOs today. As if there was any doubt that the goal was to create a cast system. If anyone is keeping track, right now in NJ it':s Politicians > LEO > Illegals > Citizens.
This.
Don't know how it is in Jersey, but where I am at LE barely have enough personnel to cover calls for service. I would wager much of the rest of the country is the same.
It is going to be interesting to watch how they plan to proceed once the reality of non-compliance sets in.
According to the news, New Jersey is in a financial mess. Also according to the news, New Jersey continues to allocate millions they don't have (according to the finances suck articles) to brand new programs they get all excited about.
According to the news, New Jersey is in a financial mess. Also according to the news, New Jersey continues to allocate millions they don't have (according to the finances suck articles) to brand new programs they get all excited about.
$2,100,000 to lawyer fees in order to defend illegals against ICE. Nice. Right?
$2,100,000 to lawyer fees in order to defend illegals against ICE. Nice. Right?
Crack whore doesn't have enough money to feed the kids, but never any shortage of smokes, big screens, and the real necessities.
platoonDaddy
12-18-18, 18:34
Schwartz, writing for the majority in the federal case, stated, because retired law enforcement officers have training and experience that makes them different from ordinary citizens, the law's exemption that permits them to possess magazines that can hold more than ten rounds does not violate the Fourteenth Amendment's Equal Protection Clause.
I don't believe this is correct, according to the article the exemption amendment was not passed . Since the court based their no 14th Amendment violation on an amendment that was not passed hold the court decision wrong.
Is there in fact a 14th Amendment violation now?
https://www2.ca3.uscourts.gov/opinarch/183170p.pdf
If more firearm and ammunition manufacturers would take the same stance that Barrett took with California I think we’d see less of this. If all the big names wouldn’t sell them un-neutered AR’s and no one shipped them mags that held more than 10rds, and they couldn’t get their HP ammo, I think some things might change, maybe get the police unions on the right side. Maybe not, just thinking out loud.
If more firearm and ammunition manufacturers would take the same stance that Barrett took with California I think we’d see less of this. If all the big names wouldn’t sell them un-neutered AR’s and no one shipped them mags that held more than 10rds, and they couldn’t get their HP ammo, I think some things might change, maybe get the police unions on the right side. Maybe not, just thinking out loud.
Brought that up in another thread. Only about 1/3 of their sales are .gov so zero idea why any manufacturer wants to lose 2/3 of their business at the behest of the minority....or why they bend over backwards for them.
The recent Larry Vickers goes to the S&B factory video mentions only about 40% of their sales are .gov.
Yeah, they ain't going door to door looking for mags just like they don't go door to door looking for meth...They'll wait for mags to come to them. Then they'll stack 19 felony charges on the poor schmuck, seize (aka steal) all his shit via asset forfeiture, stick him with an overworked shitty public defender who gives 0 ****s, then use the 19 felonies as leverage to get him to plead to something rather than take the case to trial. Honorable Judge Alcoholic will tell him that by accepting the plea he waives a bunch of rights and ask him if he understands. He'll say yes, because what other choice does he have. Honorable Judge Alcoholic will bang the gavel. Done and done. On to the next.
Cynical, but unfortunately true. IMO, asset forfeiture has been terribly misused.
ramairthree
12-18-18, 19:38
As others are pointing out, and as a mediocre author with an inability to edit to more palatable word counts but some brilliant and prescient tendencies has pointed out,
Just make more laws- and let them fall into your lap.
Outlaw all private sales. Don’t even go looking for them, but the dude getting a DUI with a pistol in the glove box will sell out his BIL that sold him the pistol and walk.
The speeder with expired insurance and some too big mags on a search will go down.
The home broken into will turn the victim into a perp when they roll up the burglars who walk for telling them where the assault pistol they had on them came from.
The safest state accident wise with the lowest DUI rates will lower the BAC line to generate more drunk drivers.
This will all occur while children rapers get 90 days probation, unlicensed, uninsured, drunk driving illegal aliens get sanctuary and free legal representation, repeat violent offenders get slaps on the wrist, etc.
Only the productive, tax paying citizens with stuff to lose are going to take serious hits.
Have the wrong politics and run over some people trying to get away from a mob? 100 life sentences.
Try to gun down a cop with on a traffic stop because you have crack and guns in your car, multiple priors, and some outstanding warrants? Maybe 8 years before parole.
Honestly, freedom will go down if they sit back and let things fall in their lap.
The only hope for freedom is if they actually go full retard and start going house to house.
Not once in a blue moon which seems to be getting tolerated. But on a regular basis.
Those with badges are going to be in a tight spot.
Those with active, reserve and NG IDs instead of 214s and/or retired ID cars are going to be in a tight spot.
Because at that point some gun owners and 2A types are going to start going house to house. And the judges, DAs, LE chiefs, and politicians bringing it down are going to be expecting to be untouchable. And they are going to want them to take care of it.
Those with badges are going to be in a tight spot.
Those with active, reserve and NG IDs instead of 214s and/or retired ID cars are going to be in a tight spot.
Because at that point some gun owners and 2A types are going to start going house to house. And the judges, DAs, LE chiefs, and politicians bringing it down are going to be expecting to be untouchable. And they are going to want them to take care of it.
If it all goes south in the US, you may see a level of ugliness you could only expect to see in places like Syria, Iraq or Somalia. You would be seeing the wholesale murder of political leaders, judges, and just ordinary people who are known democrats or Leftists, young and old, men and women. Once it gets started, it'll start popping up all over the place, in all regions. It will all be justified in saving the Republic. What would be left after such a purge is unfathomable with a traditional American mentality.
These sorts of discussions people like to tip toe around, but political and social upheaval with the gun here means mass murder on a large scale.
If it all goes south in the US, you may see a level of ugliness you could only expect to see in places like Syria, Iraq or Somalia. You would be seeing the wholesale murder of political leaders, judges, and just ordinary people who are known democrats or Leftists, young and old, men and women. Once it gets started, it'll start popping up all over the place, in all regions. It will all be justified in saving the Republic. What would be left after such a purge is unfathomable with a traditional American mentality.
These sorts of discussions people like to tip toe around, but political and social upheaval with the gun here means mass murder on a large scale.
Afterall.. after the 1984 Winter Olympics, we thought Yugoslavia was a civilized place. 8 years later that place turned into Hell.
If only the lawmakers had to personally enforce the laws they make...
Afterall.. after the 1984 Winter Olympics, we thought Yugoslavia was a civilized place. 8 years later that place turned into Hell.
I was in Kosovo in 1999, my last deployment before retiring. That was a broken mess.
If it all goes south in the US, you may see a level of ugliness you could only expect to see in places like Syria, Iraq or Somalia. You would be seeing the wholesale murder of political leaders, judges, and just ordinary people who are known democrats or Leftists, young and old, men and women. Once it gets started, it'll start popping up all over the place, in all regions. It will all be justified in saving the Republic. What would be left after such a purge is unfathomable with a traditional American mentality.
These sorts of discussions people like to tip toe around, but political and social upheaval with the gun here means mass murder on a large scale.
Unfortunately it may very well be the only way to save the Republic as we know/would like it. 4-5 years of hell on Earth, followed by 10 years of reconstruction and reconciliation, followed by 50-75 years of good times, followed by 50-75 years of decline. Rinse and repeat.
At some point, I just pray for the zombies to come. It would make the whole thing a lot easier.
If such an upheaval happens, you can bet the leftists here will seek aide from their foreign masters.
Sent from my G8341 using Tapatalk
If only the lawmakers had to personally enforce the laws they make...
They would only have to look at the voter registration of the intended victim and send an elected official of the same party to their door. If said victim can't bring themselves to vote against the person no matter what activities the person or party engages in(and will defend them against anyone critical of them, much like an abused spouse) they sure won't raise their hand against them.
That would go smoother than sending cops considering a fair number of leftists would resist them.
Ned Christiansen
12-19-18, 09:17
On the "freedom is no longer a thing" front, I note from yesterday's news that in Canada, police no longer are required to have a "reasonable suspicion" to pull someone over to see if they have been drinking. One interviewee said the randomness of it would work out in everyone's favor because it would eventually happen to everyone and therefor it was fair; and would it really be so bad to be pulled over once, twice a year for doing.... nothing?
In California, a guy buys a house for $1.7 mil and demolishes it to build another in its place. Due to a demo permitting oversight on his part (like, kinda didn't get one), he must rebuild the house the way it was. Granted the house was an architectural gem from 70 years ago, but......
As western societies become increasingly complex, it become increasingly important (to the many) that personal freedom for the one be sacrificed for the good of the many. I see that trend as inexorable. I don't ascribe to the civil war fantasy. We will go meekly into the utopia that "the many" envision for us all.
A morbid part of me thinks that if all the Law Schools were demolished that it would be a huge step forward.
Civil Matters? Just deal with it.
Criminal Matters? Judge Dredd style police forces can fix that.
You’d have to legalize polygamy, prostitution, private ownership of functional A-10s, and decriminalize dope and maybe even allow cats and dogs to not only marry but be able to marry each other. I figure after a few years of Purge style civil wars and 60s style free love minus the hippies and STDs....
Yeah we’d get back on track to how Tom Jefferson envisioned we should be
As western societies become increasingly complex, it become increasingly important (to the many) that personal freedom for the one be sacrificed for the good of the many. I see that trend as inexorable. I don't ascribe to the civil war fantasy. We will go meekly into the utopia that "the many" envision for us all.
For all the III% BS talk about there, you are 100% right. There may be individual hold outs, but they will soon be overwhelmed.
Adrenaline_6
12-19-18, 11:29
As western societies become increasingly complex, it become increasingly important (to the many) that personal freedom for the one be sacrificed for the good of the many. I see that trend as inexorable. I don't ascribe to the civil war fantasy. We will go meekly into the utopia that "the many" envision for us all.
I don't think so. Utopia is a man-made fantasy that will never be. The problem with it is that 100% of the people have to be on board or it doesn't exist. Personal freedoms might get worse and worse, but only to a breaking point. What that breaking point is, is unknown. What most likely will happen is that many freedoms will be given up, but due to human nature, the ones in charge will abuse their control after awhile and will become too bold and will supply the straw that breaks the camels back, then history will repeat itself.
I find it amusing that every generation thinks themselves too smart or too evolved and developed for this to happen. It's been on repeat for thousands of years, we are no different and not any smarter. We, like the rest before us, just think we are.
PatrioticDisorder
12-19-18, 11:30
As western societies become increasingly complex, it become increasingly important (to the many) that personal freedom for the one be sacrificed for the good of the many. I see that trend as inexorable. I don't ascribe to the civil war fantasy. We will go meekly into the utopia that "the many" envision for us all.
None of us have a crystal ball, but for a Yugoslavian style mass murder even (civil war wouldn’t even be spelled label), it will take economic catastrophe and sadly the way the left governors, that is a very real threat. I cannot imagine anyone having a civil war fantasy, if that event were to occur it would be uglier than anyone could imagine and many of us, loved ones and many innocent will die.
I don't think so. Utopia is a man-made fantasy that will never be.
Of course not. But that has never and will never stop society from trying to achieve that unachievable fantasy no matter whose personal freedoms they have to sacrifice for the good of the many.
Over the last, say, 100 years, what society in the world have you seen that has trended toward MORE personal freedom for its people? Here in the US, the Bastion of the Free World...do you think that our rights have been more, or less infringed over that period of time? Is there anything in that trend that makes you think that it will reverse anytime soon?
...
Adrenaline_6
12-19-18, 14:11
Of course not. But that has never and will never stop society from trying to achieve that unachievable fantasy no matter whose personal freedoms they have to sacrifice for the good of the many.
Over the last, say, 100 years, what society in the world have you seen that has trended toward MORE personal freedom for its people? Here in the US, the Bastion of the Free World...do you think that our rights have been more, or less infringed over that period of time? Is there anything in that trend that makes you think that it will reverse anytime soon?
...
I'm totally with you on this and I agree with you on what is happening...but it will get to the point of civil war before all is said and done. Just like people with freedom forget what it is to be free and are willing to give up their freedoms for security, people in absolute power forget what a motivated mass of people can do when they have had enough. It's been happening over and over forever.
...but it will get to the point of civil war before all is said and done. Just like people with freedom forget what it is to be free and are willing to give up their freedoms for security, people in absolute power forget what a motivated mass of people can do when they have had enough. It's been happening over and over forever.
JMO...I'm reasonably confident that in these modern times there will never be a sufficient mass of motivated people to put "them" off from their quest for the utopia that they imagine...certainly not by force. There may be messy little pockets of violent resistance cropping up here and there...but if the revolution happens, it will happen at the ballot box, as it did in 2016, not with the kind of cataclysmic upheaval so many here have been prepping for. Even that 50-50 "revolution" is petering out however, collapsing under the weight of Donald Trump's massive ego as it tries to slog through the morass of The Deep State.
...
Adrenaline_6
12-19-18, 15:35
JMO...I'm reasonably confident that in these modern times there will never be a sufficient mass of motivated people to put "them" off from their quest for the utopia that they imagine...certainly not by force. There may be messy little pockets of violent resistance cropping up here and there...but if the revolution happens, it will happen at the ballot box, as it did in 2016, not with the kind of cataclysmic upheaval so many here have been prepping for. Even that 50-50 "revolution" is petering out however, collapsing under the weight of Donald Trump's massive ego as it tries to slog through the morass of The Deep State.
...
I respect your view, but I think it will happen just because we as humans have never learned from history in all the other past occurrences. We aren't anything special. It will be beyond the point that the ballot box makes any difference anymore. We are not there but we are getting there. Not in our lifetime probably, but it will happen, as long as the Apocalypse doesn't come first. :D
I respect your view, but I think it will happen just because we as humans have never learned from history in all the other past occurrences. We aren't anything special. It will be beyond the point that the ballot box makes any difference anymore. We are not there but we are getting there. Not in our lifetime probably, but it will happen, as long as the Apocalypse doesn't come first. :D
Apocalypse fantasies are always fun. I think an apocalypse will happen first. Based on the movies that I've seen, I think that an apocalypse, whether it's atmospheric supercooling/instant ice-age, Yellowstone supervolcanoe, massive west-coast earthquake, a ELE meteor, or a Sharknado, will be the event that hits the reset button for us in lieu of an actual armed civil uprising.
Just my opinion. I could be wrong....
Meanwhile, the NJ Assembly unanimously passed the exemption for LEOs today. As if there was any doubt that the goal was to create a cast system. If anyone is keeping track, right now in NJ it':s Politicians > LEO > Illegals > Citizens.
So they really don't have problems with over 10 round magazines being used to commit murders in NJ.
Issued MP5 mass murder.
http://murderpedia.org/male.L/l/lutes-edward-photos.htm
Issued Glock execution of ex wife.
https://www.app.com/story/news/local/courts/2018/05/22/new-seidle-lawsuit-has-more-troubled-past-cites-app-interview/632015002/
Concerning the latter, there must be some interesting police training in New Jersey with his colleagues claiming they thought he was acting as an officer. Even hugged him and patted him on the back when he tired of shooting her. In many ways, more egregious than Peterson at the high school.
Moose-Knuckle
12-19-18, 19:25
”Exigent circumstances”...immediate threat to public safety.Watertown’s frantic search for a known terrorist on the loose is not the same thing as a door-to-door ransacking of houses to search for contraband that does not pose an immediate threat. Not the same thing at all.
So your saying that LE in fact DID go door to door without warrants and PC.
The .gov doesn't get to suspend the 4th Amendment when ever it suits them. At least that is not how it is supposed to work.
”Exigent circumstances” is a slippery slope. Hurricane Katrina was an exigent circumstance too and officials carried out firearm confiscations there illegally.
thopkins22
12-19-18, 19:34
So your saying that LE in fact DID go door to door without warrants and PC.
The .gov doesn't get to suspend the 4th Amendment when ever it suits them. At least that is not how it is supposed to work.
”Exigent circumstances” is a slippery slope. Hurricane Katrina was an exigent circumstance too and officials carried out firearm confiscations there illegally.
That’s the thing right? I’m not completely opposed to the concept of skipping warrants due to exigency...I mean nobody is arguing that you shouldn’t be able to kick down a door to a house where you know a woman is being killed, or break a window to get a child out of a car, or in pursuit of a criminal you saw enter a premises or some such.
But I would argue that the courts have it wrong when they found that other things found as a result of that entry are not fruit of the poisonous tree.
And certainly Katrina type searches and seizures are abhorrent to liberty.
Moose-Knuckle
12-19-18, 19:42
As others are pointing out, and as a mediocre author with an inability to edit to more palatable word counts but some brilliant and prescient tendencies has pointed out,
Just make more laws- and let them fall into your lap.
Outlaw all private sales. Don’t even go looking for them, but the dude getting a DUI with a pistol in the glove box will sell out his BIL that sold him the pistol and walk.
The speeder with expired insurance and some too big mags on a search will go down.
The home broken into will turn the victim into a perp when they roll up the burglars who walk for telling them where the assault pistol they had on them came from.
The safest state accident wise with the lowest DUI rates will lower the BAC line to generate more drunk drivers.
This will all occur while children rapers get 90 days probation, unlicensed, uninsured, drunk driving illegal aliens get sanctuary and free legal representation, repeat violent offenders get slaps on the wrist, etc.
Only the productive, tax paying citizens with stuff to lose are going to take serious hits.
Have the wrong politics and run over some people trying to get away from a mob? 100 life sentences.
Try to gun down a cop with on a traffic stop because you have crack and guns in your car, multiple priors, and some outstanding warrants? Maybe 8 years before parole.
Honestly, freedom will go down if they sit back and let things fall in their lap.
The only hope for freedom is if they actually go full retard and start going house to house.
Not once in a blue moon which seems to be getting tolerated. But on a regular basis.
Those with badges are going to be in a tight spot.
Those with active, reserve and NG IDs instead of 214s and/or retired ID cars are going to be in a tight spot.
Because at that point some gun owners and 2A types are going to start going house to house. And the judges, DAs, LE chiefs, and politicians bringing it down are going to be expecting to be untouchable. And they are going to want them to take care of it.
So much truth here.
If it all goes south in the US, you may see a level of ugliness you could only expect to see in places like Syria, Iraq or Somalia. You would be seeing the wholesale murder of political leaders, judges, and just ordinary people who are known democrats or Leftists, young and old, men and women. Once it gets started, it'll start popping up all over the place, in all regions. It will all be justified in saving the Republic. What would be left after such a purge is unfathomable with a traditional American mentality.
These sorts of discussions people like to tip toe around, but political and social upheaval with the gun here means mass murder on a large scale.
To quote one of my favorite childhood films . . .
"From now on, all troops are forbidden to travel outside secured areas in any group smaller than squad size.
Then call Bratchenko.
Tell him sector eight is now active." — Col. Bella
Moose-Knuckle
12-19-18, 19:49
As western societies become increasingly complex, it become increasingly important (to the many) that personal freedom for the one be sacrificed for the good of the many. I see that trend as inexorable. I don't ascribe to the civil war fantasy. We will go meekly into the utopia that "the many" envision for us all.
“If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.” ― Samuel Adams
So your saying that LE in fact DID go door to door without warrants and PC.
The .gov doesn't get to suspend the 4th Amendment when ever it suits them. At least that is not how it is supposed to work.
”Exigent circumstances” is a slippery slope. Hurricane Katrina was an exigent circumstance too and officials carried out firearm confiscations there illegally.
Sure. The government can ignore the 4th amendment under "exigent circumstances"...have always been able to do so. The Supreme Court doesn't take the Constitution as literally as some M4C posters. Big difference between looking for a known demonstrated terrorist who's just committed mass murder, and a door-to-door scavenger hunt without any probable cause whatsoever and lives not in immediate danger.
And yup. It's a slippery slope for sure.
....
“If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.” ― Samuel Adams
Yup. That's where we're going. Even Sam Adams saw it coming.
...
As western societies become increasingly complex, it become increasingly important (to the many) that personal freedom for the one be sacrificed for the good of the many. I see that trend as inexorable. I don't ascribe to the civil war fantasy. We will go meekly into the utopia that "the many" envision for us all.
I don't think so. Utopia is a man-made fantasy that will never be. The problem with it is that 100% of the people have to be on board or it doesn't exist. Personal freedoms might get worse and worse, but only to a breaking point. What that breaking point is, is unknown. What most likely will happen is that many freedoms will be given up, but due to human nature, the ones in charge will abuse their control after awhile and will become too bold and will supply the straw that breaks the camels back, then history will repeat itself.
I find it amusing that every generation thinks themselves too smart or too evolved and developed for this to happen. It's been on repeat for thousands of years, we are no different and not any smarter. We, like the rest before us, just think we are.I just visited what we would call a Concentration camp in North East Italy (Trieste). Smaller, but just as horrifying as the bigger, well known ones.
First, it hits you that they had one in a major city.
And that anyone who calls someone like Bush/Trump/whoever a NAZI has no conception of what the NAZIs were/did.
Then, as you read/watch the individual accounts, you realize the effect of collaborators and quiet concession of civil liberties in the name of safety.
Not that I think NJ is going to build concentration camps and recreate that particular hell.
Just that no one thought they were going to end up in one even as they slowly gave up rights and the capability to resist. And by the time they realized what was going on, it was too late.
Now there is a population that drives by it to get to the soccer stadium that does not even know that part of their history.
We are seeing what hmac referred to play out. It's an unfortunate aspect of modern human nature. The forefathers warned against it, and we know where it can end up.
Here is an example of the red flag law in use. Yep, don’t ever seeing this law getting abused.
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2018/12/luis-valdes/vermont-teens-planned-a-school-shooting-and-police-confiscate-a-relatives-guns/
Here is an example of the red flag law in use. Yep, don’t ever seeing this law getting abused.
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2018/12/luis-valdes/vermont-teens-planned-a-school-shooting-and-police-confiscate-a-relatives-guns/
NJ Cops tried to take guns from a man who's kid they thought to be a risk. Man told them to pound sand. Or so the story goes.
https://bearingarms.com/tom-k/2018/07/16/nj-veteran-claims-police-tried-take-guns-without-due-process/
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.