View Full Version : Mattis Resigns
The Warrior Monk has spoken.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/20/us/politics/jim-mattis-defense-secretary-trump.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage
I think I’m done with Trump as well. The only reason I voted for him was his opposition.
Mattis was the only one in the Administration worth anything.
Yeah we all kinda saw what we wanted to see in 2016.
Oh well...at least now I can be angsty again
Yep, totally agree with General Mattis's take on the whole Syrian deal.
This is a low spot.
Thank you, General Mattis, for your service.
FromMyColdDeadHand
12-20-18, 18:50
At this rate, we’ll all,get a turn at a cabinet level post.
On one hand, I believe Mattis thinks like a Marine and wants to be involved in Syria and the middle east. On the other hand, I believe Trump and Congress wants to pull back and consume a lot of our resources. I do believe Mattis was a great general, but SECDEF is a different job that requires more in some area and less in other areas.
I think Mattis was a great SECDEF during the transition between Obama and Trump, because I felt that Obama had turned a blind eye on global events such as Syria. And Trump needed someone with a lot of knowledge and expertise on how to handle a complex conflict with so many players involved.
Trump is working the CEO of America. Just like any other CEO if your staff doesn't play ball you get rid of them.
Do any of you work for a major corporation? The turn over can be relatively high, especially if there is any kind of change going on.
Business as usual in Corporate America.
As for Mathis...... what makes him so great as a SEC DEF. Did he reverse all the Sh%$ Obama did to the MIL? Nope. So he is just another politician but with a cult following.
President is not a CEO. And I don't want the country ran like a Corporation. Yes there is something to be said for the Fiscal responsibility side that is like business but that is about the extent of it.
President is not a CEO. And I don't want the country ran like a Corporation. Yes there is something to be said for the Fiscal responsibility side that is like business but that is about the extent of it.
I do, and he need to make a profit so we can stop paying for this gay sh%$ like welfare and Medicaid.
Trump is working the CEO of America. Just like any other CEO if your staff doesn't play ball you get rid of them.
Do any of you work for a major corporation? The turn over can be relatively high, especially if there is any kind of change going on.
Business as usual in Corporate America.
As for Mathis...... what makes him so great as a SEC DEF. Did he reverse all the Sh%$ Obama did to the MIL? Nope. So he is just another politician but with a cult following.
I agree 100% Trump has changed his staff many times of the last 2 years to conform to his vision. I think if Bush 43 had changed his staff following 9/11, and got rid of his Dad's friends, his presidency would have been a lot better.
The Secretary of "whatever" works directly for the President! They are appointed by him to work together for a common goal! And while everyone is rowing in the same direction, if you start paddling the other way, you get thrown overboard. That's called team building!
President is not a CEO.
That's exactly what he is! He is the Commander in Chief, the Chief Executive Officer of the Executive Branch.
I do, and he need to make a profit so we can stop paying for this gay sh%$ like welfare and Medicaid.
Also agree 100%, I do believe welfare and Medicaid has a purpose, but not how its being used right now! The US pays like $40 Billion a year to Indians through the Bureau of Indian Affairs yet average Indians are poor, we just committed to paying Mexico and Central America $10 Billion in aide, The US gives hundreds of billion away every year in foreign aide. Its not just a penny out of our paycheck like they want us to believe. Its the reason we are broke! Its the reason we cant get $5 Billion to build a wall, yet Obama got $1.3 Trillion for Obamacare.
Business_Casual
12-20-18, 19:29
Trump is working the CEO of America. Just like any other CEO if your staff doesn't play ball you get rid of them.
Do any of you work for a major corporation? The turn over can be relatively high, especially if there is any kind of change going on.
Business as usual in Corporate America.
As for Mathis...... what makes him so great as a SEC DEF. Did he reverse all the Sh%$ Obama did to the MIL? Nope. So he is just another politician but with a cult following.
Yep. There’s one boss and you sing from his hymnal or move on.
I agree, what are all the successes Mattis fans can list?
Coal Dragger
12-20-18, 19:43
He was without a doubt the finest general officer I ever served under. His performance early in Afghanistan and then in Iraq were outstanding. He was an excellent military leader at the operational level.
thopkins22
12-20-18, 20:14
I do, and he need to make a profit so we can stop paying for this gay sh%$ like welfare and Medicaid.
Ideologically, I’m with you. But it’s a drop in the bucket of what’s coming. And it isn’t poor people living on the dole that is going to be the cause. It is you, it is your parents, it was your grandparents. It’s all of us that are paying into social security and not reforming healthcare in such a fashion that old people can afford it without needing Medicare.
I.O.U.S.A. did the math in an apolitical fashion, and we can’t simply grow or cut our way out of this unless you start talking about cutting people who have paid into it for thirty or forty years. Nor can we have tax our way out of it. It will wind up being a combination of taxes and pretty severe cuts. Or we’ll choose to inflate ourselves into poverty.
Until a politician stands up and says “you’re going to pay more taxes, and get fewer benefits,” I’m going to assume that he is either a liar or uninformed.
Trump may be a CEO, albeit one who drove off an actually competent one and who made less money than the S&P average...but if he is a CEO of this country, he’s like Jeffrey Skilling.
morbidbattlecry
12-20-18, 20:17
I feel it's important to read his resignation letter. Seams like he is upset with how we treat our allies now. And i can't say i blame him, this whole ordeal has been a stain on the honor of the US.
I feel it's important to read his resignation letter. Seams like he is upset with how we treat our allies now. And i can't say i blame him, this whole ordeal has been a stain on the honor of the US.
The honor of the US was already stained after Obama. We need to get out of stupid wars. If anything our allies have been all lip service for a long time. They don’t pay for NATO, they don’t unite against Russia and China. Everyone sits on their hands and waits for the USA or yellow vests to get them stirred up a little. If anything our allies need a reset on what is happening in this world and stop promoting socialism over freedom and the effort to keep it.
thopkins22
12-20-18, 20:35
Its the reason we cant get $5 Billion to build a wall, yet Obama got $1.3 Trillion for Obamacare.
Well, he didn’t. The annual cost at the moment is within several billion of what Medicare Part D(Bush’s healthcare bill,) costs around $110 billion. However cost is irrelevant to me, because even if it costs nothing, the government should not be in the business of delivering goods and services.
I would also argue that insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies are who got the ACA passed, and are a large part of why Republicans were never actually going to overturn it.
I’ve missed whether or not Trump is implying that he can build he whole wall for $5B? A decade ago it was suggested that at minimum it would cost $25B...by a person advocating for it.
If not, what are we doing? Put that money straight into CBP...the Mexicans’ proclivity towards smuggling via tunnels should make us question the whole idea. We’re going to stop a ten billion dollar industry with a five billion dollar wall? I think we should step back and consider the return on investment and political capital we’re spending on this stupid thing.
I believe $10 billion is the standard number for the wall.
Not sure whether the wall is the right choice, but the drugs and potential threats that are coming over are no joke. One has to wonder if it’s time for another Punitive Expedition.
But, in reference to the original topic, Mattis leaving is not a good thing. I voted for Trump because I trust Pence. People like Mattis built up trust in the effectiveness of the administration, vs people like Devos who have zero experience in their areas, despite my agreement with her ideology. And, I know that a fair number of people really like/respect Mattis... I think this is going to make a lot of people think twice about showing up in 2020.
The US pays like $40 Billion a year to Indians through the Bureau of Indian Affairs yet average Indians are poor.
Well, not 40 billion, 2.5 billion. https://www.bia.gov/news/opa/president-proposes-25-billion-budget-indian-affairs-fiscal-year-2018
It is kind of hard to nail down a set amount on what the Bureau of Indian Affairs spends on each tribal member. Some of the money goes to support the IHS, which reduces medicaid costs. Some of the money goes to support infrastructure on the reservations, those costs would be borne by local jurisdictions, if the reservations were part of the state.
There are about 5,200,000 Native Americans (not sure whether that includes Alaskan Natives) it is said that about 22% (1,440.000) live on reservations.
I think we should do away with the BIA and the reservations. One way would be to make each reservation an individual corporation and give each member carried on the tribal rolls a percentage of the stock based on the percentage of Native American blood each person has - for example, someone with 1% tribal blood gets 10 shares; 100% gets 1,000 shares......... If the corporation sells any of it's lands shareholders get a dividend based on their shares, if the casino makes a profit, shareholders get a dividend, etc. That takes care of the tribal lands.
Then we need to pay off everyone who is on the tribal rolls - Once again, base the payments on percentage of native blood, on tribal rolls. Someone 100% gets $200,000,00; someone 1% gets $2,000,00.
That way the Native Americans have a corporate income stream, and a one-time cash payment to start them on their way.
Then we have the problem of what to do with all the employees, of the BIA. On second thought, maybe better to leave things as they are.
Obama got $1.3 Trillion for Obamacare
How Obamacare Reduces the Debt by $143 Billion
The non-partisan Congressional Budget Office said that the ACA would reduce the debt by $143 billion. It added up the costs of both of the laws that implemented Obamacare. The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (Public Law 111-148) detailed the plan. The Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act (Public Law 111-152) passed new Obamacare taxes and budget reductions in other areas, which offset the cost of the plan.
The following five new ACA taxes would bring in an additional $567 billion in revenue:
Hospital insurance tax - $212 billion.
Non-compliance tax - $64 billion.
Cadillac health insurance tax - $32 billion.
Medical device and insurers tax - $107 billion.
Raising medical deduction limit to 10 percent - $104 billion.
Also, there were five areas where the ACA imposed a total of $477 billion in cost savings:
Reduce drug subsidies to the wealthy - $87 billion.
Reduce hospital DSH payments - $37 billion.
Reduce Medicare payments - $197 billion.
Reduce Medicare Advantage payments - $135 billion.
Service education loans directly. That eliminated the cost of the private loan servicer, Sallie Mae - $20 billion.
When the costs of $940 billion were deducted, the deficit would have been reduced by $104 billion. This would have been added back to the deficit if Trump had repealed and replaced Obamacare.
Obama Said It Cost $940 Billion
When President Obama signed the ACA on March 23, 2010, he said it would cost $940 billion over its first ten years (FY 2010 - FY 2019). The CBO made that estimate in its analysis completed March 18, 2010. A few days later the CBO lowered its cost projection to $938 billion based on a more detailed analysis. The estimate came from five cost areas that were not directly offset by revenues:
Expanding Medicaid and CHIP - $434 billion.
Tax credits to small businesses who provide insurance - $40 billion.
Setting up the health insurance exchanges - $358 billion.
Tax credits for those who can't afford insurance - $106 billion.
The CBO Said It Cost $1.76 Trillion
In March 2012, the CBO updated its Obamacare cost estimate to $1.76 trillion. The Senate Budget Committee Minority Office reported that this was two times more than the CBO's original estimate of $940 billion. Did the cost of Obamacare spiral out of control? Did Obamacare proponents deliberately mislead us? No and no.
First, the original CBO estimate was for FY 2010 - FY 2019, a 10-year span. The updated CBO estimate was a for an 11-year span starting two years later, FY 2012 - FY 2023. The most expensive provisions of Obamacare didn't take effect until 2014. That's when mandatory health insurance coverage took effect. The biggest cost was expanding Medicaid and CHIP to include more low-income people. Here's the breakout:
Expanding Medicaid and CHIP - $931 billion.
Small business tax credits - $23 billion.
Setting up exchanges and providing tax credits for those who can't afford insurance (combined) - $808 billion.
https://www.thebalance.com/cost-of-obamacare-3306050
The 1.3 trillion for the ACA, is an aggregate over a ten-year period.
Well, he didn’t. The annual cost at the moment is within several billion of what Medicare Part D(Bush’s healthcare bill,) costs around $110 billion. However cost is irrelevant to me, because even if it costs nothing, the government should not be in the business of delivering goods and services.
I would also argue that insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies are who got the ACA passed, and are a large part of why Republicans were never actually going to overturn it.
Actually, somewhat correct. If big pharma had pulled the strings on its bought and paid for elected officials, the ACA would never have passed. As a result, in order to placate big pharma and get the act passed, things that would have controlled drug prices and lowered medicaid and medicare costs were axed.
So, yeah they helped, but actually it was a hindrance.
I'm really looking forward to seeing where this goes:
Today, the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services (CMS) proposed polices for 2020 to strengthen and modernize the Medicare Part C and D programs. The proposal would ensure that Medicare Advantage and Part D plans have more tools to negotiate lower drug prices, and the agency is also considering a policy that would require pharmacy rebates to be passed on to seniors to lower their drug costs at the pharmacy counter.
“President Trump is following through on his promise to bring tougher negotiation to Medicare and bring down drug costs for patients, without restricting patient access or choice,” said HHS Secretary Alex Azar. “By bringing the latest tools from the private sector to Medicare Part D, we can save money for taxpayers and seniors, improve access to expensive drugs many seniors need, and expand their choice of plans. The Part D proposals complement efforts to bring down costs in Medicare Advantage and in Medicare Part B through negotiation, all part of the President’s plan to put American patients first by bringing down prescription-drug prices and out-of-pocket costs.” https://www.cms.gov/newsroom/press-releases/cms-takes-action-lower-prescription-drug-costs-modernizing-medicare
Because unless I didn't understand, that is pretty much what the original ACA wanted to do.
Well, not 40 billion, 2.5 billion. https://www.bia.gov/news/opa/president-proposes-25-billion-budget-indian-affairs-fiscal-year-2018
It is kind of hard to nail down a set amount on what the Bureau of Indian Affairs spends on each tribal member. Some of the money goes to support the IHS, which reduces medicaid costs. Some of the money goes to support infrastructure on the reservations, those costs would be borne by local jurisdictions, if the reservations were part of the state.
There are about 5,200,000 Native Americans (not sure whether that includes Alaskan Natives) it is said that about 22% (1,440.000) live on reservations.
I think we should do away with the BIA and the reservations. One way would be to make each reservation an individual corporation and give each member carried on the tribal rolls a percentage of the stock based on the percentage of Native American blood each person has - for example, someone with 1% tribal blood gets 10 shares; 100% gets 1,000 shares......... If the corporation sells any of it's lands shareholders get a dividend based on their shares, if the casino makes a profit, shareholders get a dividend, etc. That takes care of the tribal lands.
Then we need to pay off everyone who is on the tribal rolls - Once again, base the payments on percentage of native blood, on tribal rolls. Someone 100% gets $200,000,00; someone 1% gets $2,000,00.
That way the Native Americans have a corporate income stream, and a one-time cash payment to start them on their way.
Then we have the problem of what to do with all the employees, of the BIA. On second thought, maybe better to leave things as they are.
Won't work. Alaskan Natives have non-profit 8(a) corporations and it's a total cluster. Very little money actually makes it back to the shareholders, the board of directors live in luxury while the common folk live in third world conditions in villages, and their books actually cannot be audited. Lack of control over the corporations leads to political corruption, unfair competition against other private businesses, and they pay no taxes. The more private corporations they suck up, the less taxes paid into the system, the more my private corp ends up paying. I guess you could theoretically form a better system, but since the Alaska system is in place there would be heavy pressure to emulate it in the lower 48.
The best thing that could happen in this country is taking steps to make us all Americans and not have special classes of people.
I think I was looking at the Department of Interior for the budget and not the BOI. I don't know why we are giving them money anyways, we are basically splitting this country with them 50/50. Pretty soon, native Hawaiians will want there 40 acres and a mule. I go up to Oklahoma to the casinos that are owned by the Indians and if your wondering where they money goes, it goes into building billion dollar casinos! But the Indians do sell cheap cigarettes so I got to give it to them for that!
Y’all are talking Indians and the wall like those are the issues ruining this country. How about we end the laughable war on drugs before we build a wall? How about we stop letting young American’s die for a culture that will NEVER adopt our values or systems and could not care less about themselves? We need to get the heck out of the Middle East. It will never end, and we will keep dying for these animals.
Adrenaline_6
12-21-18, 09:09
I think I was looking at the Department of Interior for the budget and not the BOI. I don't know why we are giving them money anyways, we are basically splitting this country with them 50/50. Pretty soon, native Hawaiians will want there 40 acres and a mule. I go up to Oklahoma to the casinos that are owned by the Indians and if your wondering where they money goes, it goes into building billion dollar casinos! But the Indians do sell cheap cigarettes so I got to give it to them for that!
As far as the native Hawaiians go, they actually did get screwed and they deserve some kind of compensation, but like AKDoug mentioned, giving them land and monetary compensation like the Native Americans is a recipe for disaster. Poverty and drug abuse is rampant, unemployment and suicide is high due to the helplessness that life breeds. I've been on a mission trip to Arizona to the White Mountain Apache Reservation. It is horrible for most and they didn't even fight the US Cavalry, so they were allowed to stay where they were I am part Hawaiian,
I went to a private high school that was donated by a princess for the further education of Hawaiian people. I know the culture and was raised in Hawaii.
I try and tell my friends at home that they need to be careful what they ask for because in the long run it probably won't end well.
For the Hawaiians if given the chance, corruption will eventually take over, like it usually does due to human greed and the select few will run the place and everyone else will suffer with zero accountability. They don't have the foresight or the ability to swallow their pride to admit it, but it will end the same way for them eventually. Do they at least need to be given the chance to try? Probably so, but the eventual outcome that I know will take place has me wanting it never to happen although I know it isn't up to me to deny them the chance. It is a quickly dying race due to massive immigration and no real homeland of pure blood. To find someone 100% Hawaiian is a rare find. Sure, we are all diluted to some extent, but most know what I mean. Kind of sad actually, but life goes on and I don't dwell too much on the inevitable.
For me, this is a temporary existence, where a much better one is waiting where all this doesn't matter one bit, so I am good. This life is but a micro thread from a universe long string of yarn. Inconsequential really. What lays ahead is eternal. That is where we should really focus.
^^^ Hawaii lost their right to complain when they voted to become a state. They are like Detroit now. All of their issues come from voting straight Democrat since 1959. I’ve spent several years out there. I’ve had this conversation with locals. It’s not popular, but I believe it to be true.
As for the US deficit and the insurance debacle... They will raid our 401k accounts in the next 10-20 years to pay for everything.
We’ll be able to keep “our” money in the bank, they’ll just hit us at 40-60% tax when we try to withdraw it after retirement or pass it on via inheritance. Those of us that have worked our ______ off for 45+ years and paid our own insurance will just get our retirement robbed to pay for the retirement and insurance of others who just sucked the system dry.
How about we stop letting young American’s die for a culture that will NEVER adopt our values or systems and could not care less about themselves? We need to get the heck out of the Middle East.
But that means we'd have to admit Russia isn't as big of a threat as they say. Or that remaining there has actually caused more of the people in that region to dislike us.
I remember in 2003 the Iraqi's were glad we were there. More often than not while taking care of maintenance issues on the road locals would show up and thank us. One stop in early Arpil '03 while one of the sects was on pilgrimage there was a one-legged man on a bicycle who went soldier to soldier in the convoy, tears in his eyes, shaking our hands and thanking us.
Fast forward 10 months later and the rocks were being thrown, fingers given, and wires crossing the roads to fresh looking dirt mounds. We over stayed our welcome. I can only imagine how the people in Afghanistan view us.
Adrenaline_6
12-21-18, 09:58
^^^ Hawaii lost their right to complain when they voted to become a state. They are like Detroit now. All of their issues come from voting straight Democrat since 1959. I’ve spent several years out there. I’ve had this conversation with locals. It’s not popular, but I believe it to be true.
I think you need to look back a little further. It's the original overthrow that was the problem. I agree about their current issues and voting democrat though. The unfortunate reality that people are too stupid to realize that the unions they work for aren't telling them to vote for the ideal candidate, just the one that benefits the union, the business it is involved with, and the politicians they own.
May we please stop calling Native Americans/First Peoples "Indians"? It is annoying, kind of offensive, and ignorant.
It's the only place I draw the line. The sports teams and military equipment with Native names I think is cool but every time I hear "Indian" it is turbo annoying. Indians are from India. I have jack shit to do with India.
Same with black dudes hollering they are "African". If you are some Coming to America looking dude who looks like the bad guy from Tears of the Sun and are straight outta Nigeria, then yes. You are African AF. If you are some fatass black guy who took his first semester of polisci 101 then, screw you. You are black and American and are owed nothing more than anyone else.
I do not know about the deal with Hawaiian people and don't care. They seem to be doing all right.
Per Reservations, nobody is forced to live there. I don't live there. I never will. Once I saw it was nothing but drunks and people who just kinda gave up, I was like "no thanks".
I just live my life as best I can but being called "Indian" or worse "Mexican" is highly offensive. I remember filling out a 4473 on a rifle I wanted out of town. Dude said "you made a mistake. You gotta check latino".
Persec in mind, Those who know me know I most famously am fairly well albeit soft spoken and have no real regional dialect. I walked right out.
I do not try to make race an issue, but some stuff really is annoying.
Not trying to be "that guy" but I wanted that off my chest
Averageman
12-21-18, 10:13
If you cannot agree with what the Company policy changes are, it takes a integrity to leave, perhaps a lot more than staying and performing your duties without the full of your heart being behind them.
We went in to Iraq, we should have stayed out of it. After 9/11 Bush was told he needed a war against terror to remain popular and unfortunately he listened to his Dad's advisers over good common sense.
It's a Tar Baby, once you grab hold it's a bitch to get free of it.
I think you need to look back a little further. It's the original overthrow that was the problem.
Agreed, with the word “was” being the key. Once they voted to join the USA as a state, they gave up all grievances.
The rest of your post is spot on. It’s a shame.
Adrenaline_6
12-21-18, 10:36
May we please stop calling Native Americans/First Peoples "Indians"? It is annoying, kind of offensive, and ignorant.
It's the only place I draw the line. The sports teams and military equipment with Native names I think is cool but every time I hear "Indian" it is turbo annoying. Indians are from India. I have jack shit to do with India.
Same with black dudes hollering they are "African". If you are some Coming to America looking dude who looks like the bad guy from Tears of the Sun and are straight outta Nigeria, then yes. You are African AF. If you are some fatass black guy who took his first semester of polisci 101 then, screw you. You are black and American and are owed nothing more than anyone else.
I do not know about the deal with Hawaiian people and don't care. They seem to be doing all right.
Per Reservations, nobody is forced to live there. I don't live there. I never will. Once I saw it was nothing but drunks and people who just kinda gave up, I was like "no thanks".
I just live my life as best I can but being called "Indian" or worse "Mexican" is highly offensive. I remember filling out a 4473 on a rifle I wanted out of town. Dude said "you made a mistake. You gotta check latino".
Persec in mind, Those who know me know I most famously am fairly well albeit soft spoken and have no real regional dialect. I walked right out.
I do not try to make race an issue, but some stuff really is annoying.
Not trying to be "that guy" but I wanted that off my chest
You voice your offense and I totally get where you are coming from, but then say you don't know about the Hawaiian people and don't care. It's not that it offends me, but this makes you lose total credibility and respect for your grievance. If you don't know and in turn don't care about another ones struggle, then why should anyone care about yours? With that same mindset, people should be allowed to say Indian to your face and not care how offended you are and you also should be fine with it.
...and no, your people aren't forced to live in the reservations, but getting out is a different thing entirely. There are different towns in the reservations that have different economic tiers. Some of them have gangs that even though you might work hard to get yourself out of there and make a better life for yourself, will have no problem robbing you blind and then burning your house to the ground. Add the fact that most have only an 8th grade education, and there you have it. Hopelessness. The tribal councils want them them that way, so they stay there, hopeless, they run the show the way they want and the government issues the council a paycheck based on the population. It seems you were lucky and was on the outside looking in. A totally different situation.
May we please stop calling Native Americans/First Peoples "Indians"? It is annoying, kind of offensive, and ignorant.
It's the only place I draw the line. The sports teams and military equipment with Native names I think is cool but every time I hear "Indian" it is turbo annoying. Indians are from India. I have jack shit to do with India.
Same with black dudes hollering they are "African". If you are some Coming to America looking dude who looks like the bad guy from Tears of the Sun and are straight outta Nigeria, then yes. You are African AF. If you are some fatass black guy who took his first semester of polisci 101 then, screw you. You are black and American and are owed nothing more than anyone else.
I do not know about the deal with Hawaiian people and don't care. They seem to be doing all right.
Per Reservations, nobody is forced to live there. I don't live there. I never will. Once I saw it was nothing but drunks and people who just kinda gave up, I was like "no thanks".
I just live my life as best I can but being called "Indian" or worse "Mexican" is highly offensive. I remember filling out a 4473 on a rifle I wanted out of town. Dude said "you made a mistake. You gotta check latino".
Persec in mind, Those who know me know I most famously am fairly well albeit soft spoken and have no real regional dialect. I walked right out.
I do not try to make race an issue, but some stuff really is annoying.
Not trying to be "that guy" but I wanted that off my chest
Solid post, all of it.
I suggested letting the tribe build my wife a house and moving onto the reservation when I retired from the Army. I'm not sure if it was the pitch "I won't have to work and can shoot guns whenever I want, plus I can piss off the back porch and no one will care" but she shot that idea down with prejudice.
The reservations remind me of the inner cities and it's sad. It's not the people, it's the environment.
Andy
Adrenaline_6
12-21-18, 11:42
Agreed, with the word “was” being the key. Once they voted to join the USA as a state, they gave up all grievances.
The rest of your post is spot on. It’s a shame.
I see your point, but an illegal takeover resulting in an illegal annexation results in an illegal vote in the first place. Again, I don't want to see anything changed, but the ones that do have a legitimate argument.
^^^ Hawaii lost their right to complain when they voted to become a state. They are like Detroit now. All of their issues come from voting straight Democrat since 1959. I’ve spent several years out there. I’ve had this conversation with locals. It’s not popular, but I believe it to be true.
It's a victim mentality that impacts many, including them. If you view yourself, collectively or individually, as a victim of X, you will behave as a victim of X, and expect viewed as, treated as, a victim of X. Once a victim mentality is established on a cultural level, it's damn near impossible to get passed it within the culture. Individuals can and will move on, but the larger culture will not. Simply giving them X as reparations for being the victim of X, sounds great "on paper" but history finds it only cements and ultimately legitimizes the victim culture. That does not mean horrible crappy stuff did not happen to them, nor is it justification for what happened to them, but as a people, they're still the only source of going from that victim mentality to one of survivors who moved on and kept their cultures intact, while getting on with their lives. There's not been a single civilization nor culture nor peoples's who have not been the victim of X, and that includes Native Americans and how one tribe treated another (often wiping another tribe off the map) and so forth. If there's one thing history shows us, individuals can be great, people collectively really suck and will find any excuse to do X to another group.
End of the day, he who has the better tools, resources, tactics, etc, wins.
May we please stop calling Native Americans/First Peoples "Indians"? It is annoying, kind of offensive, and ignorant.
It's the only place I draw the line. The sports teams and military equipment with Native names I think is cool but every time I hear "Indian" it is turbo annoying. Indians are from India. I have jack shit to do with India.
Same with black dudes hollering they are "African". If you are some Coming to America looking dude who looks like the bad guy from Tears of the Sun and are straight outta Nigeria, then yes. You are African AF. If you are some fatass black guy who took his first semester of polisci 101 then, screw you. You are black and American and are owed nothing more than anyone else.
I do not know about the deal with Hawaiian people and don't care. They seem to be doing all right.
Per Reservations, nobody is forced to live there. I don't live there. I never will. Once I saw it was nothing but drunks and people who just kinda gave up, I was like "no thanks".
I just live my life as best I can but being called "Indian" or worse "Mexican" is highly offensive. I remember filling out a 4473 on a rifle I wanted out of town. Dude said "you made a mistake. You gotta check latino".
Persec in mind, Those who know me know I most famously am fairly well albeit soft spoken and have no real regional dialect. I walked right out.
I do not try to make race an issue, but some stuff really is annoying.
Not trying to be "that guy" but I wanted that off my chest
Can we please stop calling them Native Americans? Because they are not, NO WAY. My family CREATED America. They are Native Americans. The savages were just hanging out. They did even know they were Americans until Those that founded this country and their children TOLD them they were. It is insulting to all of those tat have fought, died, and built this great Country.
They lost...... We win. So stop trying to make them something they are not. They lost, END OF STORY
If you are offended by this then you know how those that are descendants of the Founding Fathers feel every time some chucklehead uses the term Native American when referring to Indians.
I just live my life as best I can but being called "Indian" or worse "Mexican" is highly offensive. I remember filling out a 4473 on a rifle I wanted out of town. Dude said "you made a mistake. You gotta check latino".
Persec in mind, Those who know me know I most famously am fairly well albeit soft spoken and have no real regional dialect. I walked right out.
st This thread is so far off track that I'm not sure where it's going now.
I detest those two lines on the 4473 as much as I detest the "I'm not a user of marijuana" check box. I have a guy that buys guns from me that's 1/2 Costa Rican (he's not sure if that's necessarily Hispanic or Latino and he's never been to Costa Rica), 1/4 black (and he's not sure that's correct either), and 1/4 white. We laugh every time he just checks Hispanic/Latino on 10a and White on 10b. It never trips him up on his NICS check. I have another customer 1/2 Alaskan native and 1/2 white that checks Not Hispanic/Latino and then White on 10b since that's technically as correct as if he'd checked the American Indian or Alaska Native box. The whole thing is bullshit and shouldn't even exist on the form.
Won't work. Alaskan Natives have non-profit 8(a) corporations and it's a total cluster. Very little money actually makes it back to the shareholders, the board of directors live in luxury while the common folk live in third world conditions in villages, and their books actually cannot be audited. Lack of control over the corporations leads to political corruption, unfair competition against other private businesses, and they pay no taxes. The more private corporations they suck up, the less taxes paid into the system, the more my private corp ends up paying. I guess you could theoretically form a better system, but since the Alaska system is in place there would be heavy pressure to emulate it in the lower 48.
The best thing that could happen in this country is taking steps to make us all Americans and not have special classes of people.
I did not know anything about how the Alaskan Natives work, and to be honest, I have limited in-sight into how BIA works. I have done building projects on reservations, trained reservation police officers, and done some deposition stuff against tribal efforts to get their own license plates for our AG. That is the extent of my knowledge.
I think continuing the reservation system is the worst thing we could do for the Native Americans who live on the reservations.
My thoughts are that ending the way things are would eliminate the tax free status of corporations that already exist. But, as they say, I don't know what I don't know.
All I'm saying is, do we really want to be doing this BS for another hundred years?
May we please stop calling Native Americans/First Peoples "Indians"? It is annoying, kind of offensive, and ignorant.
It's the only place I draw the line. The sports teams and military equipment with Native names I think is cool but every time I hear "Indian" it is turbo annoying. Indians are from India.
Then what would you suggest? Does not seem like any term works, depending on how literal one wants to get. Some don't like or want the "American" designation attached either. I tend to use Native American, but personally, we'd all be better off without the sub categories that divide and just go with 'Muricans :cool:
Per Reservations, nobody is forced to live there. I don't live there. I never will. Once I saw it was nothing but drunks and people who just kinda gave up, I was like "no thanks".
Fly, that is like saying 'no one is forced not to be President.'
Some folks, the way they grow up is the only way they imagine it being. On the other side of the coin, most folks who are all '**** em' about medicaid, minimum wage, social security, can't ever imagine themselves being in a position to need those things.
When I was helping build duplexes for missionary teachers on the Hopi Reservation, I asked some pretty forthright questions about the squalor I saw, the answers gave me a different perspective on some of the stuff.
Can we please stop calling them Native Americans? Because they are not, NO WAY. My family CREATED America. They are Native Americans. The savages were just hanging out. They did even know they were Americans until Those that founded this country and their children TOLD them they were. It is insulting to all of those tat have fought, died, and built this great Country.
They lost...... We win. So stop trying to make them something they are not. They lost, END OF STORY
If you are offended by this then you know how those that are descendants of the Founding Fathers feel every time some chucklehead uses the term Native American when referring to Indians.
Hence my comments above #35.
In Fort Peirce FL, there's a big mound dedicated to a tribe (I forget the name offhand) that was wiped off the map by the Seminole tribe. Killed everyone, made their people into slaves they didn't kill, took their land, etc, etc.
That's what Native 'Muricans did to each other before we showed up and did it to them.
Yes, it sucks to be on the losing side but humans are nasty aggressive animals and the weak(er) perish ultimately. Maybe we're slowly improving as a species in that respect, but in some parts of this world, no different then it was eons ago, just better killin' tools.
Ugh.... You know, the First Peoples weren't just running around naked in the woods all day. They had civilization and cities. Were it not for their mercy, the settlers would have died miserably of starvation and consumption. It was a tenuous cooperation until disease and greed took over. Most of your colonial townships just moved in after the disease wiped everyone out.
First Peoples...Aboriginal Americans...Native American. All fine. Just, quit with the Indian spiel please.
I don't mind the history of America and hold no ire towards the Europeans who helped develop it; but....
With all the lowest common denominators of the world pillaring into the US now demanding food, homes, and rights; I must ask....
How does it feel?
In 100 years your history that _you_ made will be gone or misconstrued, your grandchildren shall look nothing like you, and all you believed in shall fall to iconoclasm.
And...if someone named Mohammed or Abdul tells your descendant
"YOU LOST, GET OVER IT!"
I doubt very much you would take comfort in that.
America is a very special place, a beautiful land. A unique land of wonder.
Don't cheapen it as if it were a vacant apartment. Because people are wanting it and all it has.
Never forget where you came from, who helped, who taught, and what became of them.
Because now it is happening to you, your religion, your society, and your future.
And there is nothing you can do about it.
Adrenaline_6
12-21-18, 12:36
It's a victim mentality that impacts many, including them. If you view yourself, collectively or individually, as a victim of X, you will behave as a victim of X, and expect viewed as, treated as, a victim of X. Once a victim mentality is established on a cultural level, it's damn near impossible to get passed it within the culture. Individuals can and will move on, but the larger culture will not. Simply giving them X as reparations for being the victim of X, sounds great "on paper" but history finds it only cements and ultimately legitimizes the victim culture. That does not mean horrible crappy stuff did not happen to them, nor is it justification for what happened to them, but as a people, they're still the only source of going from that victim mentality to one of survivors who moved on and kept their cultures intact, while getting on with their lives. There's not been a single civilization nor culture nor peoples's who have not been the victim of X, and that includes Native Americans and how one tribe treated another (often wiping another tribe off the map) and so forth. If there's one thing history shows us, individuals can be great, people collectively really suck and will find any excuse to do X to another group.
End of the day, he who has the better tools, resources, tactics, etc, wins.
Agreed.
Whiskey_Bravo
12-21-18, 12:51
I see your point, but an illegal takeover resulting in an illegal annexation results in an illegal vote in the first place. Again, I don't want to see anything changed, but the ones that do have a legitimate argument.
That has happened to just about every piece of land in world. The more powerful group takes from the less powerful. It happened to Hawaii and it is now a state, it is what it is.
Ugh.... You know, the First Peoples weren't just running around naked in the woods all day. They had civilization and cities. Were it not for their mercy, the settlers would have died miserably of starvation and consumption.
And more settlers and more ships would have shown up after that. The end result would have been the same.
Not sure how we got so off topic but we have ventured into some serious snowflake territory. I can legit trace my ancestry to the Mayflower, I want my very own term / pro noun also or I will be offended.
Ugh.... You know, the First Peoples weren't just running around naked in the woods all day. They had civilization and cities. Were it not for their mercy, the settlers would have died miserably of starvation and consumption. It was a tenuous cooperation until disease and greed took over. Most of your colonial townships just moved in after the disease wiped everyone out.
First Peoples...Aboriginal Americans...Native American. All fine. Just, quit with the Indian spiel please.
I don't mind the history of America and hold no ire towards the Europeans who helped develop it; but....
With all the lowest common denominators of the world pillaring into the US now demanding food, homes, and rights; I must ask....
How does it feel?
In 100 years your history that _you_ made will be gone or misconstrued, your grandchildren shall look nothing like you, and all you believed in shall fall to iconoclasm.
And...if someone named Mohammed or Abdul tells your descendant
"YOU LOST, GET OVER IT!"
I doubt very much you would take comfort in that.
America is a very special place, a beautiful land. A unique land of wonder.
Don't cheapen it as if it were a vacant apartment. Because people are wanting it and all it has.
Never forget where you came from, who helped, who taught, and what became of them.
Because now it is happening to you, your religion, your society, and your future.
And there is nothing you can do about it.
And you and yours will all be along for that ride, as it's not like it will stop at the border of the reservations, etc. United we stand, divided we will fall. If and when those who were defeated or treated like chit at some point in their history (everyone if you look back far enough...) decide they're not "other" or victims in need of ongoing assistance, will they then be part of "A unique land of wonder." You/we don't get to have our cake an eat it too in that dept. What makes the US "very special place, a beautiful land" is that while we sure as hell don't all get to start from the same starting line, one can accomplish incredible things like no other place on the planet, irregardless of background. But, if the individual and or culture is suspended in victim mode, it will not happen. From my POV, that is not
"YOU LOST, GET OVER IT!" but I can't speak for others here. It's just the reality of how an individual or culture decides to prosper and move forward, or fold up and be on the fringes looking for handouts, etc, which ultimately all but guarantees he/they will remain in that space.
As an individual, as a group, as a culture, as a country, you can experience X and decide that there's a way forward, or you can fold. I think the current situation of the Native People's is terrible thing that deserves more focus, but as with all people that have been through terrible hardships, end of the day, no one can do it for them. That they have the opportunity to change it, is in many respects again, what makes the US such a unique place.
I can say, I had just about all the odds stacked against me and could tick off all the stats that said I should be dead or in jail by 21, but here I am. From where I started, done OK for myself, but far from rich, nor always happy, but I also know there's not a single country on the planet I could have achieved what I did from where I started.
To conclude, the fate our "our" society is directly connected to yours, "And there is nothing you can do about it."
Decide where you stand and stand there...
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-21-18, 13:40
Well this thread has taken a strange turn. Talks of indians and such.
Anyways,
Mattis seemed like a very professional SecDef, and was well respected throughout all military circles, even foreign ones. His letter of resignation was honorable, and a good reminder of how our allies are beginning to view us. I wish Trump would've heeded to sound advice of the last adult left in his administration.
Averageman
12-21-18, 13:44
Not a good day for the Kurds.
morbidbattlecry
12-21-18, 13:51
In a world of hawks Mattis was a diplomat first and warrior second.
Not a good day for the Kurds.
This is my only beef with all this. Erdogan is evil and will slaughter them wholesale. I'm honestly shocked that anyone in the world is willing to ally with us on their own ground. We have a long, tarnished history of abandoning our "friends" and leaving them to die. It's revolting. :mad:
I have not heard much talk about all the great reasons for never ending wars, our great record of successful nation building, or how great it is to be a few mistakes away from a shooting war with Russia?
Maybe I need to reread the compelling reasons given by Congress in the declaration of war again?
This is my only beef with all this. Erdogan is evil and will slaughter them wholesale. I'm honestly shocked that anyone in the world is willing to ally with us on their own ground. We have a long, tarnished history of abandoning our "friends" and leaving them to die. It's revolting. :mad:
Erdogan used the murder of khashoggi to create his own reality and feigned horror towards a crime he would commit for his own interests with no hesitation. He has used this to weaken our influence to his advantage and the Kurdish people are likely to be those who are most affected.
Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
snowflake is a weak fallback.
This all VERY MUCH is relevant.
Your leaders whom you elected, and I am enumerated amongst you; have decided time and time again that you, the American, are simply not a priority.
Matttis, the subject of this thread, is disgusted with our POTUS because he is not handling business where business lies in front of us. We are at a very peculiar time in our nation where we feel sorrier for the outsiders than our own people.
They want what you have, what both our peoples worked so hard to get and keep.
And they are going to get it. There will be no walls, no borders before you know it, and America will end up as the world's homeless shelter.
Everyone else can go to Canada, New Zealand, Australia, wherever.
I'm staying. I have no place else to go.
One day, when I've found my peace; I'd like English speaking, Christian children who look like me and I want them to have the same. I dont want press 1 for English, I dont want them to be guests in their own homes and I don't want some protected, cosmopolitan class of elites to tell them to "do the right thing" and smile as they are forced to do it.
And they damn sure won't be mislabeled as being from some other nation a world a way they have nothing at all to do with.
That's my deal. All this Nationalism has turned into backdoor globalism and men...no...WARRIORS like Mattis just don't up and quit unless they know that there lot in life is a waste of time and energy.
While I'm being punchy today, I hope he pulls a hardcore Smedley Butler but I figure ge would have an emergency "heart attack" before such a thing happens.
And no amount of memes, anime girls in MAGA hats, or bellicose tweets is going to change that.
I see your point, but an illegal takeover resulting in an illegal annexation results in an illegal vote in the first place. Again, I don't want to see anything changed, but the ones that do have a legitimate argument.
Agree to disagree.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-21-18, 16:33
With Mattis leaving, and Kelly (rumored for now?) set to be leaving soon, does this end the Trump and the Generals era? Does the business CEO and General not mix, or is it a case of Trump not able to get along?
WickedWillis
12-21-18, 17:13
Can we please stop calling them Native Americans? Because they are not, NO WAY. My family CREATED America. They are Native Americans. The savages were just hanging out. They did even know they were Americans until Those that founded this country and their children TOLD them they were. It is insulting to all of those tat have fought, died, and built this great Country.
They lost...... We win. So stop trying to make them something they are not. They lost, END OF STORY
If you are offended by this then you know how those that are descendants of the Founding Fathers feel every time some chucklehead uses the term Native American when referring to Indians.
Well your family didn't create NORTH AMERICA You know, the continent the United States resides in. That began being called that after Columbus named the Continent after Amerigo Vespucci, an Italian, and the Continents being referred as "The America's" hundreds of years before the Unites States was even a sperm in the nut of the Founding Fathers. So Native Americans being native to North America, is my complete understanding of the term. Call them Indigenous people, or whatever if calling them Natives upsets you. Calling them Indians was a mistake by Columbus when he initially thought he landed in India, and continuing to call them them Indians is dumb on everyone's part.
All this chest pounding and using the term "WE" in reference to something you weren't even there for, or a part of, is very similar to Black Americans today bitching about being slaves. No one alive today was there for any part of it.
In regards to Mattis resigning, I am not surprised by it at all. Trump likes having people that are fully on board with everything he wants to do, and Mattis just is not that guy it seems. He is a great American, and has served his Country more brilliantly than most everyone here. He will make an absolute killing if he steps into the speech circuit, like so many before him have.
Leaving Syria and Afghanistan are the correct moves imo. If it is to go to war with Iran though, we probably have more important things to worry about right now
I thought going into Syria back when Obummer was prez was a bad idea then and wonder what took us this long to get out.
I think someone convinced him we could more effectively bomb the crap out of ISIS keeping some boots on the ground. So he left them for that long.
Well your family didn't create NORTH AMERICA You know, the continent the United States resides in. That began being called that after Columbus named the Continent after Amerigo Vespucci, an Italian, and the Continents being referred as "The America's" hundreds of years before the Unites States was even a sperm in the nut of the Founding Fathers. So Native Americans being native to North America, is my complete understanding of the term. Call them Indigenous people, or whatever if calling them Natives upsets you. Calling them Indians was a mistake by Columbus when he initially thought he landed in India, and continuing to call them them Indians is dumb on everyone's part.
All this chest pounding and using the term "WE" in reference to something you weren't even there for, or a part of, is very similar to Black Americans today bitching about being slaves. No one alive today was there for any part of it.
In regards to Mattis resigning, I am not surprised by it at all. Trump likes having people that are fully on board with everything he wants to do, and Mattis just is not that guy it seems. He is a great American, and has served his Country more brilliantly than most everyone here. He will make an absolute killing if he steps into the speech circuit, like so many before him have.
Leaving Syria and Afghanistan are the correct moves imo. If it is to go to war with Iran though, we probably have more important things to worry about right now
They're not native to the Americas, simply the first (1). Yes, long before the rest to be sure, but there's no cut off time wise in that respect. They got here first, made it their home, while some continued south, and so forth. The only truly native humans on this planet aint from the Americas. Getting to a location first usually means it's yours, but unfortunately if you're unable to hold it by force, more often than not in human history, it gets taken from you if there's something the stronger group/tribe wants. So, the term Native American also not technically correct if one wants to get technical about it. 'Murica has always been a land of immigrants in one form or another if we wanna get technical about it. I'd say the most accurate term would be First Peoples or First Tribes. That's accurate.
Ok, back on topic: I honestly don't know what the right answer is as there's so many moving parts at this point, but Trump did run on the fact he believed these ongoing conflicts were not in out best interest, and unlike any POTUS I can recall in my life time, has done almost exactly what he said he would, or has tried to do, for better or worse. But I'm actually pretty impressed that for the most part, he's actually done, or attempted to do, exactly what he said he would during his campaign. Again, policies aside, a begrudging respect exists for me. I think even people around him are taken back by the fact he's actually looking to deliver on those promises, even if they may not be the best approaches.
In reverse, what does the US get by staying in Syria? 17 years in Afghanistan, and would 18 or 20 change anything? I'm open to the answers to those Qs as there's many well informed people here. My take: much of what happened in Syria a cluster of our own making via Obama admin decisions. Afghanistan, if they don't have the motivation and will to fight for their own country, they never will. I suspect it will fall to the chitheads yet again, and that's how it's been from day one. If training camps for terrorist spring up, show up, level the camp, face shoot them for good measure, and leave.
(1) https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2018/06/when-and-how-did-the-first-americans-arrive--its-complicated-/
May we please stop calling Native Americans/First Peoples "Indians"? It is annoying, kind of offensive, and ignorant.
I refuse to call Indians "Native Americans"! Why? Because I think its highly disrespectful. If you are a Cherokee, then you should identify as a Cherokee and be called a Cherokee, if you are a Navajo, you should identify as a Navajo and be called a Navajo. Same with Sioux, Apache, Cheyenne etc. The term "Native American" has taken all the tribes and combine them into one group. And by doing so, I feel that the individual tribes have lost their identity, heritage, uniqueness and their individuality. As a nation, we dont even celebrate Indians or even learn much about them beyond the surface. And our education system doesn't even offer any tribal language as option in school. I wasn't trying to be offensive! Please forgive me.
Back to Mattis:
I think him leaving may be a good thing. Over the years, Mattis has talked about commitments and partnerships and I do feel that Mattis want to continue paying our allies for their loyalty. Trump on the other hand has spoken a lot about our allies coming to the table with more bread. Mattis most likely prefers to assist our allies financially because it increases DOD budget and gives the US control and influence. That's a pretty big power play. On the other hand, I think Trump wants more commitment from our allies. Instead of billions going to other nations in defense assistance packages, we could use that money ourselves.
I think Mattis and Trump clashed on Syria. I think Mattis is looking down the road, while Trump is wanting to see results now. I have thought about this: For whatever reason, we are not 100% involved in this conflict, we have assets and resources there, but kind of sitting on the sidelines. I don't know what Trump or Mattis wants for Syria but I know a lot of people don't want us sitting on the sidelines and only assisting. Its like Syria is a bunch of isolated conflicts and we cant just fly over and carpet bomb the place or send in 500 tanks. Ill let you guys give an opinion.
I think Mattis was a great General and even a great Sec Def. But I believe the role as Sec Def. is to be less of a general and more of a diplomat and assist the president on making decisions. Having said that, I wish him well, but I don't think he absence will hurt us.
Trump ran on this, it should shock no one.
Neither Hawk nor Dove and completely willing to use force if needed, like crushing ISIS. But also realistic about long term entanglements and nation building failures.
Regarding what to call the people who occupied this land before the European, they really don't care. It's more of a White Man issue. I interact with natives all the time. I have a Navajo Wrangler who also does the rodeo circuit (bull rider). The Navajo word for their tribe is "Dineh", which literally translates: "THE People". My wrangler just says he's an Indian. In New Mexico schools, the interaction between Whites and Indians isn't a problem. The Whites or Anglos refer to their Indian friends as "Natives" - That's my friend Sonny, he's a sophomore, oh and he's Native.
The Navajo Nation which occupies part of this State has tribal schools where the teams are either Chieftans, Lady Chieftans in Shiprock, New Mexico. Across the line in Arizona is the Red Mesa School district. Their sports team are the Red Skins. As I said before, amongst real Native Americans, Indians or whatever, the only hang up or concern is with white liberals. Most of the young people out here mix all together between Whites, Hispanics and Natives. Race is something far down the line in their consideration of each other. The rest of the Country could take some lessons from folks out here.
Now regarding Mattis. I am sorry he is leaving. I think he provided a nice counter balance to Trump's impulsiveness. Mattis came to the conclusion he couldn't do any more. I have mixed feelings on Syria. I don't like Assad, I don't like the Iranians, I don't like the Russians and I don't like Erogan of Turkey. I think it's a shame that our pull out will lead to the genocide of the Kurds and the Yazidi's. They have proven to be good allies and it's immoral for us to back stab them like this, but it is what it is. I have no doubt we will be back in Syria again sometime in the future, dealing with some larger crisis and with a lot more than 2000 troops.
I am no Libertarian, but I am no Globalist Hawk. The world is a complicated place and power projection to protect our interests is needed. If we retract world wide, our enemies will fill the void. America has been kept pretty safe because we were killing them there, threatening to kill them there or demonstrating what we have that could kill them there. I was part of that spear of power projection during my Army years. Outside of the United States, the world can be a nasty, shitty, evil place. I want that kept out of here.
Trump ran on this, it should shock no one. But also realistic about long term entanglements and nation building failures.
Trump has been very outspoken about Iraq and how it turned into a fiasco. I don't think Trump wants to get involved in Syria and I don't blame him, its too complex, we are talking many years followed by many billions of dollars investing into what?
I feel responsible for the left turn. Not trying to make an issue, don’t care about Custer or 40 acres it’s just....
Do I look like Apu at the Stop and Rob to you?!
that’s the last I shall say on the matter.
Anyways, at this point it doesn’t matter, whatever happens happens. I just had all these hopes. And they are dashed.
Meh, Trump will find another general and just do whatever like always
Moose-Knuckle
12-22-18, 07:10
The reservations remind me of the inner cities and it's sad. It's not the people, it's the environment.
What makes a place a shit hole?
Is it the topography? The fauna and or flora? No of course not, it's the people that reside in said shit hole.
Take the people out of any given environment and prest-o change-o that environment ain't so bad anymore.
Can we please stop calling them Native Americans? Because they are not, NO WAY. My family CREATED America. They are Native Americans. The savages were just hanging out. They did even know they were Americans until Those that founded this country and their children TOLD them they were. It is insulting to all of those tat have fought, died, and built this great Country.
They lost...... We win. So stop trying to make them something they are not. They lost, END OF STORY
If you are offended by this then you know how those that are descendants of the Founding Fathers feel every time some chucklehead uses the term Native American when referring to Indians.
Christopher Columbus was an impoverished immigrant who was just trying to bring diversity to a continent of xenophobes. The hatred, contempt, and envy towards what he accomplished still reverberates to this day hence the politically correct and socially acceptable anti-White/anti-European rhetoric we are witness to in these times.
As far as leftest speak and politically correct phraseologies are concerned my chief grievance in the use of such classifications as "native", "indigenous", and or "first" is the blatant disregard to the fact these people groups didn't just sprout from the plains but were migrants themselves who came from Asia across the Bering Land Bridge during the last glacier maximum. Europeans were crossing sea ice during this same time. Science tells us the Clovis People were the first established group in North America, and they were a mixed race group consisting of people from Asia Minor and Europe.
The oldest known skeletal remains found in North America to date belong to that of the Kennewick Man and his DNA tested mostly as Polynesian.
Then we have the Windover Bog People who's mummified remains were found in a peat bog in FL, they are OLD and consist of Celtic DNA.
Depending on what rabbit hole a person wants to reconnoitre there has been evidence found over the years of ancient Phoenicians and Egyptians in North America. The Chinese and the Vikings also left quit a lot of bread crumbs.
Dr. Bullseye
12-22-18, 11:37
Mattis like everyone else in the administration, is Trump's mouthpiece. He carries out Trump's every wish or he is gone. He can give advice, but he does not command the military, Trump does. Anyone who is not fully on the Trump Train is someone I personally want gone. Bye Now!!!
The Navajo Nation is the largest land area tribe in the US. It's 24,700 square miles, 16.2 million acres and covers parts of three States. Only 200,000 people spread out over an area the size of West Virginia. There is lots of beautiful, wide open spaces with herds of wild horses, and incredible amount game. There's a place I know there where I can pick up raw garnets off the ground. I have explored large remote portions of it with Navajo friends from my time at the U of Arizona. It's hardly a shithole.
Or the Jicarilla Apache Reservation in the northern part of this State of New Mexico. Again, beautiful, unspoiled lands.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-22-18, 15:54
Mattis like everyone else in the administration, is Trump's mouthpiece. He carries out Trump's every wish or he is gone. He can give advice, but he does not command the military, Trump does. Anyone who is not fully on the Trump Train is someone I personally want gone. Bye Now!!!
Ah yes, because an administration full of yes men who are afraid to speak up is always a good thing.....
The Navajo Nation is the largest land area tribe in the US. It's 24,700 square miles, 16.2 million acres and covers parts of three States. Only 200,000 people spread out over an area the size of West Virginia. There is lots of beautiful, wide open spaces with herds of wild horses, and incredible amount game. There's a place I know there where I can pick up raw garnets off the ground. I have explored large remote portions of it with Navajo friends from my time at the U of Arizona. It's hardly a shithole.
Or the Jicarilla Apache Reservation in the northern part of this State of New Mexico. Again, beautiful, unspoiled lands. That's fine and dandy. The same thing can be said about lands outside Native villages in AK. However, much like the Navajo villages I have seen , Alaskan villages by and large aren't hardly paradise.
FIRST OFF. This isn't a discussion about Native Americans, Indians, or indigenous people so bring it back on track or it's over.
Now with that said, I find it funny that people are against us withdrawing from Syria. If we were serious about crushing ISIS (and we have done a good job) then why don't we have more resources there to do it? My guess is because we can't, because let's not forget we are operating in an area that hasn't permitted us to be there. Combine that with the fact that Russia and Turkey are both operating in their own interests and you have a shit show.
The entire region is in a mess. And in case you didn't get the memo, the Kurds were always expendable. Iraq, Syria and Turkey do not want an independent state and aren't going to allow it. Which means we then have to rethink our relationship with Iraq as well as Turkey which really shouldn't be in NATO to begin with.
Of course, we could just stay there for another 15 years and see if it turns out as good as Afghanistan which has been an abject failure and monumental waste of money. Not to mention thousands of dead American and Allied personnel.
Coal Dragger
12-22-18, 23:21
I respect Jim Mattis immensely, he did a good job as SecDef, his views on things differ from Trump. So he’s going back into retirement, I wish him the best. I understand he’s not on board with a withdrawal from Syria, not sure why, I’d like to think it has to do with the fact he knows the Turks will try to exterminate the Kurds and then probably the Armenians they didn’t get to in 1918. Mattis believes in protecting our allies and it won’t sit well with him to abandon them.
Unfortunately that entire region is a total shit show, and short of wide scale invasion and extermination of the populations of Syria, Egypt, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Turkey it will always be a shit show.
Fortunately, we produce a lot of oil now and in my uneducated opinion that means our national interests in the region are now greatly diminished. Keeping the Suez Canal and straits of Hormuz open are a much lower priority than they were 10 years ago. As a US citizen I give roughly zero shits if oil production and transportation from that area slows down due to regional conflicts. I don’t care if Vladimir Putin turns off the natural gas lines either. In a perverse way it would be helpful to our own petroleum industry. If that means Western Europeans freeze to death in the dark, then tough shit for those Eurotrash morons. They’ve been free loading off the US defensively for too long, and have made horrendous decisions regarding their own infrastructure dependence on an enemy.
So getting out of Syria, Iraq, and Afghanistan makes sense. Leave the barbarians to their own devices, they don’t want us there. Let them kill one another, and squander their lives and resources fighting each other.
Mattis like everyone else in the administration, is Trump's mouthpiece. He carries out Trump's every wish or he is gone. He can give advice, but he does not command the military, Trump does. Anyone who is not fully on the Trump Train is someone I personally want gone. Bye Now!!!
This type of bullshit is exactly how you get to Nazi Germany.
So Trump says he took Mattis in after Obama "fired" him.
Lame. I have no doubt Mattis could have his own country if he so wished.
Ultra lame. Mega Lame. Super weak.
Like...Fun is fun, but Mattis gave Trump some legitimacy. I overlooked too much. So yeah, I'm long off the MAGA train
We should be debating policy, not people.
The policy is important, and there is no real debate or reasoned thinking going one here or in the news. It's either pro or anti Trump. There are real issues here on both sides of the argument.
We should be debating policy, not people.
The policy is important, and there is no real debate or reasoned thinking going one here or in the news. It's either pro or anti Trump. There are real issues here on both sides of the argument.
I agree. Policy is important. Right now if I was an ally of the United States, I'd be looking to make sure there wasn't plastic on the floor of the meeting room.
Is being friends with the Kurds worth becoming enemies with NATO member Turkey?
News flash. We are not going to do the regime change thing in Syria, or start fighting the Russians there. Assad is going to eventually win his civil war. It's over, and has been for years but civilians are still dying. Do we want to own dragging that out for a few more years?
Coal Dragger
12-23-18, 19:59
Turkey shouldn’t be in NATO, but it’s too late for that to change now.
The Turks are going to most likely wage a genocide against the Kurds and possibly the Armenians (again). That doesn’t sit well with me leaving allies hanging out like that in the case of the Kurds. Not sure what the right answer is though. We’ve lead the Kurds on for years and let them down before, hopefully for their sakes they understand that the United States is largely an unreliable ally.
If the armies of our European NATO allies weren’t all uniformally a joke, I’d say that Turkey turning into an Islamic Fascist State is their problem. At this point in time I’m guessing that the Turks could invade Greece and the rest of Europe would only send a strongly worded letter. Otherwise those Eurotrash cucks aren’t going to do shit.
Obviously Assad is going to win his civil war. Russians will maintain their naval base on the Med in Syria. Iran will keep their strategic ally in Syria. The Turks will celebrate the 100 year or so anniversary of their Armenian genocide, with a new and exciting genocide. Iraq will continue to fall further into the sphere of influence of Iran. Afghanistan will be Taliban controlled by 2020.
We lost because we lack the will to win. It will cost us down the road.
Turkey is scum, and I do t consider them worthy of being in NATO, but that’s just my opinion.
I have a feeling they’re going to do something terrible like the above poster mentioned.
Islam is the problem
Not Turkey
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Coal Dragger
12-23-18, 20:19
No disagreement there.
Kamal Ataturk would not be impressed with the current day Turkey.
Islam is the problem
Not Turkey
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I am in agreement there, I just don’t see them ever being seperated.
Being friends with Kurds isn't the point, the point is that by simply walking away we are going to cause untoward loss of life among a group that we were allied with.
And, as far as Turkey goes, we are already at the point of an adversarial relationship.
Averageman
12-23-18, 23:23
The Kurds have been served a turd sandwich by us how many times?
I'm pretty sure walking away makes an impression on everyone we deal with in the future.
I'm pretty sure the alliance between China, Russia, Syria and Iran is tenuous and they've all taken some lumps, but they didn't cut and run from Assad.
Now if you were caught in the middle of some BS, would you trust our .gov to have your back ?
The better idea might be to not get involved in the first place, but no one remembers this was Obama's hand in helping with the Arab Spring debacle.
We should not be in Syria to begin with. We aligned ourselves with radical jihadist “rebels” because they are against Assad. While he’s not a good guy, Assad is largely secular. He and his family like the finer things in life, travel to Europe to shop, wear western clothing, etc. You can negotiate with people who are driven by money. You can not negotiate with radical religious ideologues. We’ve been on the wrong side of this fight from the beginning and the world is better off that we didn’t succeed in deposing Assad.
Digital_Damage
12-24-18, 09:49
We should not be in Syria to begin with. We aligned ourselves with radical jihadist “rebels” because they are against Assad. While he’s not a good guy, Assad is largely secular. He and his family like the finer things in life, travel to Europe to shop, wear western clothing, etc. You can negotiate with people who are driven by money. You can not negotiate with radical religious ideologues. We’ve been on the wrong side of this fight from the beginning and the world is better off that we didn’t succeed in deposing Assad.
You clearly do not understand what the fight is all about...
This had little to nothing to-do with Assad. This was a proxy fight.
I will say this however, you will NEVER see me side with a government that indiscriminately gasses civilian Women and children to hang onto power. If you want to side with that have at it.
Averageman
12-24-18, 10:27
It's kind of funny that when Trump disagrees with Comey and fires him we're all about the President's right to do so.
However, when it's General Mattis, people get upset.
We're likely to never know the "why" about this, but we do know he wrote a rather negative resignation letter.
The Boss runs the show, if you don't like him or his policy, well, you know where the door is.
We can't graciously exit without some sort of drama anymore. Doing so, in my opinion, is a sign of maturity and integrity.
Keep your emotions at home.
It's kind of funny that when Trump disagrees with Comey and fires him we're all about the President's right to do so.
However, when it's General Mattis, people get upset.
We're likely to never know the "why" about this, but we do know he wrote a rather negative resignation letter.
The Boss runs the show, if you don't like him or his policy, well, you know where the door is.
We can't graciously exit without some sort of drama anymore. Doing so, in my opinion, is a sign of maturity and integrity.
Keep your emotions at home.
No, its called 25th Amendment when shit goes off the rails. You don't blindly follow. If we started shuffling people onto trains and into gas chambers would you just go along with it? "I was following orders" didn't work at Nuremberg.
Digital_Damage
12-24-18, 15:41
It's kind of funny that when Trump disagrees with Comey and fires him we're all about the President's right to do so.
However, when it's General Mattis, people get upset.
We're likely to never know the "why" about this, but we do know he wrote a rather negative resignation letter.
The Boss runs the show, if you don't like him or his policy, well, you know where the door is.
We can't graciously exit without some sort of drama anymore. Doing so, in my opinion, is a sign of maturity and integrity.
Keep your emotions at home.
Like Trumps twitter feed?
Trump is border line certifiable...
Like Trumps twitter feed?
Trump is border line certifiable...
Eh it’s just narcissism
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You are required to disobey an Unlawful Order.
You may disagree with the strategic implications of a Lawful Order that you have to follow.
You cannot remove the Presidesnt as unable to carry out his duties because you disagree with the strategic implications of his policy.
You can indulge in festivities to the point you believe those three together makes a perfect anti Trump post...
At the end of the day, Trump is still same shit in a different box.
Obamacare? Running strong
Illegal immigration? INCREASING
Bullshit wars where America is playing police? Very much in effect.
Gun Rights? Getting worse of all things
North Korea? Taking its sweet time.
Russia? Actively setting up a base in Venezuela.
I could go on. I won’t.
Everyone thought it would be this mixture of 80s prosperity and 1950s values of a new age where men got their balls back and chicks started behaving like girls again but this time with synthwave.
Newp. All that was a tall order to ask from a NYC business democrat who has a Slav fetish.
We all saw what we wanted to see. I actually don’t care who wins in 2020.
I’m getting older. At some point I am gonna be a hippie who lives in a van. I just wanna have a few rights when I do without people getting in my business.
Snake oil salesmen the lot of them. Pimps and whores! Pimps and Whores!
Averageman
12-24-18, 16:53
No, its called 25th Amendment when shit goes off the rails. You don't blindly follow. If we started shuffling people onto trains and into gas chambers would you just go along with it? "I was following orders" didn't work at Nuremberg.
Hmmmmm, so we go straight to Trump is a Nazi? Where have I heard that before?
The 25th Amendment simply doesn't apply because you decide to fire someone in your cabinet. Just like firing Comey isn't collusion, firing Mattis isn't going to move the ball forward on removing Trump from office.
You are right, it doesn't immediately justify the process. My concern is that we cannot simply expect people to roll over and suck it because he says so. When you are forced to make a choice between your personal integrity or your job--I am glad we have people left in the world that choose integrity. Good leaders listen to those giving sound advice. At this point I'm off the wagon, I'm not sorry I voted for him but I am sorry for how this is turning out. We keep doing the same shit over and over again. I thought the debacles with the Montagnards would have taught us how not to do it--but here we go again. How many times have we fired up this roller coaster? The number of people that are going to die because of this decision is going to be in the five digit range if not six--possibly seven. People that we made promises too. "Treat your men as you would your own beloved sons. And they will follow you into the deepest valley." --ST I don't think we can even quantify the number of people and countries we just assed out. I don't know how an A-team leader can even do their job at this point.
platoonDaddy
12-25-18, 20:05
What is all the tears about madDog leaving the administration? !! This is the guy in 2016 who knew he would be part of the hillary administration.
Both of the following two penned the article in Daily Beast, for sure they aren't from the right:
Erin Banco work can be found in The New York Times, Newsweek Magazine, CNN, and The Intercept
Asawin Suebsaeng formerly of Mother Jones and the Bangkok Post
According to three former Clinton campaign advisers, the former secretary of state and Mattis had a very positive relationship, predating the campaign. Though no final decisions were made on who would serve as the defense secretary in a Clinton administration that never happened, Mattis was still someone Team Hillary regarded highly.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/mattis-expected-to-be-tapped-by-president-hillary-clinton-he-got-trump-instead
I always thought HRC was pretty hawkish.
Not sure why you are shocked that Team Hilary would hold a consummate, straight shooting, professional in high regard.
Coal Dragger
12-25-18, 22:51
Pretty much every policy maker and politician on both sides of the isle holds Jim Mattis in high regard.
According to some people it's like TEOTWAWKI. Always has been since 2016. I'm no shill but I like to think I see things as they are. I don't like quite a few things Trump had done but I've never been an echo chamber for any President. I also believe presidents get too much credit when things go well and far too much blame for things they don't have much control over. Obama was a known hawk and middle eastern pot stirrer and people did nothing but sing his praises. Those same people bash Trump for not being a hawk. Meh, you can't please everyone.
You are right, it doesn't immediately justify the process. My concern is that we cannot simply expect people to roll over and suck it because he says so. When you are forced to make a choice between your personal integrity or your job--I am glad we have people left in the world that choose integrity. Good leaders listen to those giving sound advice. At this point I'm off the wagon, I'm not sorry I voted for him but I am sorry for how this is turning out. We keep doing the same shit over and over again. I thought the debacles with the Montagnards would have taught us how not to do it--but here we go again. How many times have we fired up this roller coaster? The number of people that are going to die because of this decision is going to be in the five digit range if not six--possibly seven. People that we made promises too. "Treat your men as you would your own beloved sons. And they will follow you into the deepest valley." --ST I don't think we can even quantify the number of people and countries we just assed out. I don't know how an A-team leader can even do their job at this point.
Look at how the United States government treats it's own citizens. Why would that give any of our allies in a combat zone the warm fuzzies that we had their backs? Simply put, we don't deserve the allies we have left at this point. :(
We keep doing the same shit over and over again. I thought the debacles with the Montagnards would have taught us how not to do it--but here we go again. How many times have we fired up this roller coaster?
Are you honestly advocating that we should have stayed in Vietnam indefinitely because we helped the Montagnards kill their enemies?
I did not think we could go lower than Trump pulling out of Syria = Hitler loading the Jews into trains. But your position is Trump is wrong to pull out of Syria because we didn't stay in Vietnam long enough...
The 25th amendment specifically addresses a time of medical need for an incapacitated, or dead President. It does not address partisan butthurt.
Unless your intent to create a situation where the 25th is necessitated, then please spell clearly so the NSA can process the charges properly. ;)
Are you honestly advocating that we should have stayed in Vietnam indefinitely because we helped the Montagnards kill their enemies?
I did not think we could go lower than Trump pulling out of Syria = Hitler loading the Jews into trains. But your position is Trump is wrong to pull out of Syria because we didn't stay in Vietnam long enough...
I’m saying we left them to die. I’m not saying we should have stayed longer but we should have evacuated those we promised we would take care of. We tend to do that in almost every engagement since ww2–just bail out at the end.
Pulling out of Syria is not equal to Jews on trains and I think you know that is not what I was saying. There is no equivalency there. What is equal to Germany pre WW2 is unquestioning adherence. No leader anywhere at any point in time ever deserves absolute obedience. There is such a thing as lawful and unlawful orders. To advocate that it’s ok to check your brain and moral compass at the door is the end of anything even resembling a free state. No man should give up the right to make up his own mind or obliviate his right to a conscious consented choice.
If you can’t see any historical dangerous equivalents to what is going on right now I don’t know what to tell you. These mistakes have been made before, they will be made again—that doesn’t make it any less of a tragedy.
We, as a nation—have not been honoring our commitments unless it is convenient to do so. If you say you are going to do a thing, you need to do it—especially when it’s the country making those promises.
Who is going to trust us when they see how divided we are?
The 25th amendment specifically addresses a time of medical need for an incapacitated, or dead President. It does not address partisan butthurt.
Unless your intent to create a situation where the 25th is necessitated, then please spell clearly so the NSA can process the charges properly. ;)
I’m not saying what you are trying to imply but thanks for trying to **** me over. You need to google what you’ve stated here and correct your own inaccuracies regarding the 25th amendment.
You really need to stop making it all about you.
You really need to stop making it all about you.
You need to contribute meaningful/accurate content. A simple google search will help you fix your statement on the 25th, specifically section 4 and it’s past usage in American history.
https://constitutioncenter.org/interactive-constitution/amendments/amendment-xxv
None of this is about me. It’s about a guy who did what he thought was right and an internet full of angry trolls trying to collectively shove thumbs up his a$$ for doing so.
Abandoning Troops in Contact sucks. Mattis fought the good fight.
platoonDaddy
12-26-18, 18:41
. Mattis fought the good fight.
Yep, he took his marbles & went home.
We help people fight their/our enemies. They probably would have lost already without our help. Not sure what promises you refer to.
Ok, I'm going to say it... Mattis just lost quite a bit of respect in my book.
I have no issue with him resigning, or even that he disagreed. But to write the letter he did was spiteful and undermines his commander.
Imagine the response if one of his commanders in the past did similar to him. Just not done, and speaks poorly of him.
I've heard serving types whose opinion I trust say that Mattis is one of those generals that is best at turning quotable quotes. But not much else relative to his peers. I did not understand that before, but now I wonder.
I know this will make Marines angry, but the right thing to have done would be to resign and say nothing. No disrespect to USMC or his service intended. Just not something the officers young and old that I know would do, or support.
And don't bother with the lawful order crap, this was over opinion, not law or even competency.
As to the Kurds, unfortunately they have been screwed since the fall of the Ottoman empire.
There was no path to permanent solution with or without our involvement in Syria.
If they feel betrayed that is unfortunate, but other than tampering more in Turkey/Iraq than we can or should, the small presence in Syria was not going to help them long term.
I expect Trump to do what he did before. Call it stupid, or insightful, or the Trump doctrine. And if that is indeed his doctrine (that article), I'd support it, as it's not much different than my position for over a decade.
No problem to go in and take out a bad guy. But don't get sucked into nation building. We (and the Russians in their own unique way) have shown it does not work. Said it when friends deployed as bush the younger reengaged in Iraq. What a mess.
Crotchety curmudgeon I may be, but that's my view.
Coal Dragger
12-27-18, 12:12
Ok, I'm going to say it... Mattis just lost quite a bit of respect in my book.
I have no issue with him resigning, or even that he disagreed. But to write the letter he did was spiteful and undermines his commander.
Imagine the response if one of his commanders in the past did similar to him. Just not done, and speaks poorly of him.
I've heard serving types whose opinion I trust say that Mattis is one of those generals that is best at turning quotable quotes. But not much else relative to his peers. I did not understand that before, but now I wonder.
I know this will make Marines angry, but the right thing to have done would be to resign and say nothing. No disrespect to USMC or his service intended. Just not something the officers young and old that I know would do, or support.
And don't bother with the lawful order crap, this was over opinion, not law or even competency.
Mattis was not serving as a military officer, he was a political appointee. Had he been resigning a military commission you are correct that the letter he wrote would be perhaps inappropriate.
As political appointee he is well within his lane to outline the political policy disagreements that lead to his resignation.
I suspect history will bear out that Mattis was on the right side of this one.
Mattis was not serving as a military officer, he was a political appointee. Had he been resigning a military commission you are correct that the letter he wrote would be perhaps inappropriate.
As political appointee he is well within his lane to outline the political policy disagreements that lead to his resignation.
I suspect history will bear out that Mattis was on the right side of this one.Either way, he submarined the CiC, which hurts the country and adds fuel to the fire. Not cool.
And anyone who thinks they would have been better off with HRC (general theme of late) is simply delusional.
I hate it when Trump opens his mouth or tweets. Don't like the guy. But he's on the right side or more issues I care about than his 4 predecessors.
Yeah, his recent 2A positions are bad. But Bushes did far worse, as did Clinton.
Yep, he took his marbles & went home.
While I very much wish he'd remained in the position, perhaps he didn't want to have his hard earned reputation and creds used up and spit out like a $2 hooker as the Bush admin did to Powell.
As to the Kurds, unfortunately they have been screwed since the fall of the Ottoman empire.
There was no path to permanent solution with or without our involvement in Syria.
So arming the "moderate" rebels was not a long term strategy for success? Who would have thunked it?! Snark aside, what if the US continues to support the Kurds with air support and makes it clear, attacking the Kurds will result in the full power of US air? That seems an approach we have used before and obviously gives the Kurds at al a huge advantage without US boots on the ground. For some reason, using air power vs boots on the ground does not count as being there. Maybe a trade off that would benefit our regional goals while not throwing the Kurds under the bus (yet again) while preventing our "allies" like Turkey from attacking, allowing them to continue the fight to ISIS. No doubt, we would also emded some "advisors" and supply them with arms.
Mattis was not serving as a military officer, he was a political appointee. Had he been resigning a military commission you are correct that the letter he wrote would be perhaps inappropriate.
As political appointee he is well within his lane to outline the political policy disagreements that lead to his resignation.
I suspect history will bear out that Mattis was on the right side of this one.
I'm OK with my political appointed SecDef letting us know his personal reasons for vacating the position.
While I very much wish he'd remained in the position, perhaps he didn't want to have his hard earned reputation and creds used up and spit out like a $2 hooker as the Bush admin did to Powell.
Well, I said I did not fault him for leaving, that's his call. For any reason.
Snark aside, what if the US continues to support the Kurds with air support and makes it clear, attacking the Kurds will result in the full power of US air? That seems an approach we have used before and obviously gives the Kurds at al a huge advantage without US boots on the ground. For some reason, using air power vs boots on the ground does not count as being there. Maybe a trade off that would benefit our regional goals while not throwing the Kurds under the bus (yet again) while preventing our "allies" like Turkey from attacking, allowing them to continue the fight to ISIS. No doubt, we would also emded some "advisors" and supply them with arms. .
Not just ok with the above, it's exactly what I would advocate. And what I suspect (hope?) the "Trump doctrine" will quietly (hopefully) do.
Just like I think we should play hardball with Turkey.
Coal Dragger
12-27-18, 13:35
Either way, he submarined the CiC, which hurts the country and adds fuel to the fire. Not cool.
And anyone who thinks they would have been better off with HRC (general theme of late) is simply delusional.
I hate it when Trump opens his mouth or tweets. Don't like the guy. But he's on the right side or more issues I care about than his 4 predecessors.
Yeah, his recent 2A positions are bad. But Bushes did far worse, as did Clinton.
A resignation letter laying out policy differences doesn’t hurt the country. Pretty sure no one died from that letter. A more mature leader would have taken that resignation letter in stride, but not Trump. Of course a more mature, more articulate, more convincing leader might have convinced his political appointee of the advantages of his policy and not had a resignation in the first place. Sometimes leaders have to sell their ideas to the team they have assembled, Trump seems to have trouble with this.
Not just ok with the above, it's exactly what I would advocate. And what I suspect (hope?) the "Trump doctrine" will quietly (hopefully) do.
Fingers crossed on that, but not holding breath either. That would allow Trump to make good on that campaign promise while possibly preventing the vacuum that is bound to occur.
Just like I think we should play hardball with Turkey.
F Turkey. What have they ever done for us?
A resignation letter laying out policy differences doesn’t hurt the country. Pretty sure no one died from that letter. A more mature leader would have taken that resignation letter in stride, but not Trump. Of course a more mature, more articulate, more convincing leader might have convinced his political appointee of the advantages of his policy and not had a resignation in the first place. Sometimes leaders have to sell their ideas to the team they have assembled, Trump seems to have trouble with this.Name a similar Sec Defense or State resignation letter in recent history.
The more I read other resignation letters the more convinced I am that Trump rubbed off on Mattis. This was a spiteful rebutal. Had to get in a preemptive strike.
We expect Trump to act like an obnoxious New Yorker.
Not that I blame Mattis, I'd probably not have lasted as long as he did.
Not the end of the world. But Mattis just lost his opportunity to influence or moderate. He's in good company (and some bad).
Coal Dragger
12-27-18, 22:12
Name a similar Sec Defense or State resignation letter in recent history.
The more I read other resignation letters the more convinced I am that Trump rubbed off on Mattis. This was a spiteful rebutal. Had to get in a preemptive strike.
We expect Trump to act like an obnoxious New Yorker.
Not that I blame Mattis, I'd probably not have lasted as long as he did.
Not the end of the world. But Mattis just lost his opportunity to influence or moderate. He's in good company (and some bad).
Spiteful? Hardly.
That letter was quite polite, and simply laid out the reasons he was leaving.
Spiteful sounds more like this:
Dear Mr. President,
I am henceforth resigning my post as Secretary of Defense of the United States. Despite my best efforts to protect the men and women of the US armed forces from your abject stupidity, I find myself fighting a losing battle. Were it possible to explain my policy differences to you on national security, relations with allies, diplomacy, and more moderate use of spray tan I would; unfortunately you’re too damned stupid to comprehend any of it. So instead I’ll draw a picture for you with these crayons (see attached picture of a dick drawn with a crayon). I trust that one of your lackeys will read this to you, and then slowly explain what it means.
Please note that I’ve taken the liberty of cleaning out my desk already, and that I deep dicked the First Lady on top of it just prior to writing this letter. I thought she deserved to experience a real man at least once. In closing you are a coward and have no honor in addition to having the intellect of a child.
Sincerely Yours,
J. N. Mattis
^ See that is spiteful, but that is not how Mattis handled it.
Please note that I am not advocating fornication with the First Lady nor suggesting that she would be agreeable to such shenanigans. This served merely as an example of something that would be disrespectful and spiteful.
I would love to hear Kalashnikev’s take on the whole affair.
I miss you Kev, wherever you are
I wouldn't mind fornicating with the first lady.
I think it's like this folks:
With Trump, he demands loyalty. Mattis gave him integrity instead. Had Trump demanded integrity, Mattis may have given him loyalty.
Not saying Trump is right, Mattis wrong or vice versa; however, as Trump is all about USA uber alles while Mattis has more of a world view and aligns with Pentagon views (and even the whole military industrial complex Eisenhower warned of) than views of Trump.
Ultimately, while I think Mattis could have been the best secdef we have seen in decades, he was a poor fit for Trump as was Rex Tillerson and on and on. It's apparent Trump, like Obama before him, wants yes men. The difference is Obama's yes men were ideologically aligned with him.
Adrenaline_6
12-28-18, 11:24
Panning back and looking at it logically, Mattis looks at things from a militaristic point of view - what is best for the US militarily. This would be mean having some kind of influence or say everywhere in the world that could affect the US. Given an unlimited budget, his mindset would have us delving in everything. Totally understandable - that is how he views things.
Trump is bucking that mindset by taking our ball and going home and leaving an area of possible influence to chance or influence from others. This is, to Mattis, a chance that is not in the best interest security wise, but Trump views this as the juice being not worth the squeeze. He sees it cheaper to go fix something when it needs fixing rather than a constant high maintenance cost. Not something, the US and our allies are used to. Not sure if it's wrong or it's right - just different. We will see if it works or not.
When Mattis was a general, he said "I don't believe in resigning in protest because the lance corporals can't and they will have to bear the burden".
On the one hand, I know he is doing what he has to do with regard to his integrity, on the other hand he does send mixed messages in regards to what he has said in the past.
I'm all for GTFO of Syria, but wish he would have stuck it out to try to make it better.
Averageman
12-28-18, 12:15
When Mattis was a general, he said "I don't believe in resigning in protest because the lance corporals can't and they will have to bear the burden".
On the one hand, I know he is doing what he has to do with regard to his integrity, on the other hand he does send mixed messages in regards to what he has said in the past.
I'm all for GTFO of Syria, but wish he would have stuck it out to try to make it better.
This is my take, almost exactly.
When the Military was rebuilding after Viet Nam with an all volunteer force there were a lot of guys who stepped up to bring it back to the high standards of integrity it had seemed to have lost.
I don't slight General Mattis for stepping aside, that's his prerogative. Now, however, isn't the time to do so.
If you can't work for the man, if you can't see eye to eye on policy, you still have a military that's been at war for going on 17 years now. It needs rebuilt after being used by Obama as a social experiment to promote women in jobs they are generally capable of and promoting alternate lifestyles within the ranks.
I say we skip the foreplay and just invade China and Russia.
Screw it. All of it. We either get to play Fallout or Red Dawn, and best case scenario we end up with unlimited Stoli and them Chinese metart looking chicks in our legal harems under the emergency war powers act.
I have a whole crate of 6.8 and know of this Evil Dead looking shack in some undisclosed hills full of red kool aid and spam.
Otherwise The Apprentice has moved from NBC to CSPAN and.. I just somehow feel worse. This malaise like for society.
I think our music and art is a reflection of our culture and our culture has AIDS. Not even the metrosexual Truvada AIDS but that hardcore open sore AIDS circa 1983.
But a bit of zen, nothing ever changes but the faces. There will always be fat kids at Arby’s and ugly chicks working the counter and wage slaves propping up the least productive who do nothing but pop out felons.
I also hate sports. Except beach volleyball.
You know disregard I just had to get that opinion out. I’m fine.
I pay yo taxes.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-28-18, 12:43
I think it's like this folks:
With Trump, he demands loyalty. Mattis gave him integrity instead. Had Trump demanded integrity, Mattis may have given him loyalty.
Not saying Trump is right, Mattis wrong or vice versa; however, as Trump is all about USA uber alles while Mattis has more of a world view and aligns with Pentagon views (and even the whole military industrial complex Eisenhower warned of) than views of Trump.
Ultimately, while I think Mattis could have been the best secdef we have seen in decades, he was a poor fit for Trump as was Rex Tillerson and on and on. It's apparent Trump, like Obama before him, wants yes men. The difference is Obama's yes men were ideologically aligned with him.
This was an incredibly insightful post and I think it sums up the situation very accurately.
I think it's like this folks:
With Trump, he demands loyalty. Mattis gave him integrity instead. Had Trump demanded integrity, Mattis may have given him loyalty.
Not saying Trump is right, Mattis wrong or vice versa; however, as Trump is all about USA uber alles while Mattis has more of a world view and aligns with Pentagon views (and even the whole military industrial complex Eisenhower warned of) than views of Trump.
Ultimately, while I think Mattis could have been the best secdef we have seen in decades, he was a poor fit for Trump as was Rex Tillerson and on and on. It's apparent Trump, like Obama before him, wants yes men. The difference is Obama's yes men were ideologically aligned with him.
This was an incredibly insightful post and I think it sums up the situation very accurately.
The thing that I don't understand out of this exchange is what you two think the standard should be:
1) Serve the Nation and it's interests to the best of your abilities IAW the Constitution, and Christian Morality.
2) Kiss the Ring of the Emperor and leave your ethics and opinions at the door in order to keep your position
3) Just doing what I was told in order to advance the needs of the party.
Not sure what you think we need, or should demand.
I say we skip the foreplay and just invade China and Russia.
Screw it. All of it. We either get to play Fallout or Red Dawn, and best case scenario we end up with unlimited Stoli and them Chinese metart looking chicks in our legal harems under the emergency war powers act.
I have a whole crate of 6.8 and know of this Evil Dead looking shack in some undisclosed hills full of red kool aid and spam.
Otherwise The Apprentice has moved from NBC to CSPAN and.. I just somehow feel worse. This malaise like for society.
I think our music and art is a reflection of our culture and our culture has AIDS. Not even the metrosexual Truvada AIDS but that hardcore open sore AIDS circa 1983.
But a bit of zen, nothing ever changes but the faces. There will always be fat kids at Arby’s and ugly chicks working the counter and wage slaves propping up the least productive who do nothing but pop out felons.
I also hate sports. Except beach volleyball.
You know disregard I just had to get that opinion out. I’m fine.
I pay yo taxes.
Glad you're finally coming to terms with that.
https://media.giphy.com/media/kkoFRlvIwtCaA/giphy.gif
Still love you bro! (no homo) :D
I say we skip the foreplay and just invade China and Russia.
Screw it. All of it. We either get to play Fallout or Red Dawn, and best case scenario we end up with unlimited Stoli and them Chinese metart looking chicks in our legal harems under the emergency war powers act.
I have a whole crate of 6.8 and know of this Evil Dead looking shack in some undisclosed hills full of red kool aid and spam.
Otherwise The Apprentice has moved from NBC to CSPAN and.. I just somehow feel worse. This malaise like for society.
I think our music and art is a reflection of our culture and our culture has AIDS. Not even the metrosexual Truvada AIDS but that hardcore open sore AIDS circa 1983.
But a bit of zen, nothing ever changes but the faces. There will always be fat kids at Arby’s and ugly chicks working the counter and wage slaves propping up the least productive who do nothing but pop out felons.
I also hate sports. Except beach volleyball.
You know disregard I just had to get that opinion out. I’m fine.
I pay yo taxes.
I PAY YO TAXES
dew it
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
1. i assumed firefly was talking about women's beach volleyball.
2. When Mattis runs for president the bumper stickers will be "MAD DOG 2020".
I think while the executive level positions claim to be serving the country, the reality is they serve at the pleasure of the president and are there to advise the president and carry out the president's policy. If you can't do it, regardless of where you feel your positions are relative to the Constitution, then you are ineffective and need to leave.
I am still trying to totally understand the Trump Doctrine in regards to foreign policy. Maybe President Trump is still figuring that out himself? Generals like Mattis see the geopolitical worldwide situation in black and white, with the occasional compromise with our European allies (a lot of gray there). For big picture generals, allies can be valuable and used for our benefit when you schmooze with them. Despite Trump''s deal making claims, he may be more of a bull in a china shop when it comes to interacting with allies.
Politically for the domestic audience, that kind of loud talking, brutish behavior wins over the voting base. For the high-toned European, he is just too uncivilized for their taste, and makes it difficult to engage in joint diplomacy and military cooperation. For the civilian Secretary of State or Defense Secretary, I would guess there is a lot cleaning up to do after a Trump visit to Europe or a Twitter bombing. It is what it is. You hire for President a non-politician, Manhattan high dollar scrapper and TV personality, that's what you get.
I wish Mattis could have remained and helped educate and guide our new Chief Executive.
thopkins22
12-29-18, 21:04
I am still trying to totally understand the Trump Doctrine in regards to foreign policy. Maybe President Trump is still figuring that out himself? Generals like Mattis see the geopolitical worldwide situation in black and white, with the occasional compromise with our European allies (a lot of gray there). For big picture generals, allies can be valuable and used for our benefit when you schmooze with them. Despite Trump''s deal making claims, he may be more of a bull in a china shop when it comes to interacting with allies.
Politically for the domestic audience, that kind of loud talking, brutish behavior wins over the voting base. For the high-toned European, he is just too uncivilized for their taste, and makes it difficult to engage in joint diplomacy and military cooperation. For the civilian Secretary of State or Defense Secretary, I would guess there is a lot cleaning up to do after a Trump visit to Europe or a Twitter bombing. It is what it is. You hire for President a non-politician, Manhattan high dollar scrapper and TV personality, that's what you get.
I wish Mattis could have remained and helped educate and guide our new Chief Executive.
We hired the most gaudy and ostentatious human imaginable. There is real damage being done to our alliances. Now it’s certainly true that we are financing Europe’s defenses, and that outside of Canada, the UK, Australia, and perhaps the Danes nobody is really out ally back, but still.
Do you honestly believe that he’s willing to be educated or guided on anything?
I certainly wish the few high quality people that were roped in would stay to help mitigate this, but I also don’t blame them for screaming wtf and bailing.
I’m wondering if he felt like he was being asked to violate Article 99 or would be forcing others to do so.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/899
Adrenaline_6
12-31-18, 08:08
We hired the most gaudy and ostentatious human imaginable. There is real damage being done to our alliances. Now it’s certainly true that we are financing Europe’s defenses, and that outside of Canada, the UK, Australia, and perhaps the Danes nobody is really out ally back, but still.
Do you honestly believe that he’s willing to be educated or guided on anything?
I certainly wish the few high quality people that were roped in would stay to help mitigate this, but I also don’t blame them for screaming wtf and bailing.
What alliances? All European governments are run by Globalists who are anti-gun for obvious reasons. To them, we ARE the enemy and seriously threaten their globalist plan. The allies that you mention are just show pieces that are trying to keep getting what they can from the US that, when push comes to shove, will bail on us in a heartbeat if it benefits the Globalist agenda.
Your comment is a blanket insult to thousands of people who are risking/losing their lives who aren’t from the US. I’ve spent time with the UK, Aussie, Kiwi, German, Swedish, Norwegian, Polish, Dutch, Italian, French, Spanish, and Macedonian militaries downrange—all of which had outside the wire functions and gave a shit about making the world a better/safer place.
Your comment is a blanket insult to thousands of people who are risking/losing their lives who aren’t from the US. I’ve spent time with the UK, Aussie, Kiwi, German, Swedish, Norwegian, Polish, Dutch, Italian, French, Spanish, and Macedonian militaries downrange—all of which had outside the wire functions and gave a shit about making the world a better/safer place.
Pretty sure he's talking about the pols, not the troops. Angela Merkel and Co. are about as far away from the troops on policy as you could get. :(
So you actually know what Article 99 is and that post wasn't inspired by some hair brained never Trump website?
Adrenaline_6
12-31-18, 11:36
Pretty sure he's talking about the pols, not the troops. Angela Merkel and Co. are about as far away from the troops on policy as you could get. :(
You would be correct sir.
Averageman
12-31-18, 12:11
I’m wondering if he felt like he was being asked to violate Article 99 or would be forcing others to do so.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/899
So how would this possibly a fact if your CiC says "Boys, here is what we're gonna do" and suddenly it becomes foreign policy?
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