View Full Version : USAF pilots to get ARs
"If you’re a bomber of fighter pilot in the U.S. Air Force, having to eject from your aircraft sounds like a worst case scenario, but as those who have done it behind enemy lines will attest, making it to the ground is just the start of your troubles.
Currently, most pilots carry no weapons beyond a survival knife and occasionally a standard issue sidearm in their kits when flying combat operations, and with Air Force operations ongoing in multiple theaters around the world, a mishap that results in a crash or an aircraft downed by enemy fire could result in a lone American pilot left with nothing but a fixed blade knife and their training to stave off combatants ranging from untrained terror cell recruits to well-trained Russian mercenaries until help can arrive.
That possibility was highlighted in February, when a Russian Su-25 Frogfoot was shot down over Syria by rebels. The account of the pilot’s final moments, which included holding off a rebel advance with his Russian Stechkin automatic pistol before taking his own life with a grenade are widely believed to have been exaggerated for the sake of national propaganda, but the reality that pilots may find themselves in dire circumstances remains true none the less — and with U.S. pilots operating in similarly contested airspace with many platforms that remain susceptible to shoulder-fired anti-aircraft weapons, it isn’t impossible that a U.S. pilot could find themselves in similarly tragic circumstances.
Now, American pilots will have a bit more firepower to make use of if the worst were ever to occur: the GAU-5A Aircrew Self Defense Weapon (ASDW) is effectively just a modified M4 carbine, with a FAB Defense AGF-43S Folding Pistol Grip and a Cry Havoc Tactical Quick Release Barrel (or QBR) that allows the weapon to be disassembled and carried in a pilot’s compact standard survival kit."
Cont:
https://fightersweep.com/11256/air-force-pilots-will-now-carry-a-lot-more-firepower-in-case-theyre-forced-to-eject-behind-enemy-lines/?fbclid=IwAR2XBRZgHRJrDz6oPE5cDptnx9r68t8yeF_zzHTSfylFmVnboxJnL9wOVtg
lahunter57
12-22-18, 17:15
I’m not sure what else they have in their survival kits, but we’re issued a survival vest along with a go bag that is secured behind our seats. We carry M4’s and M9’s.
Having a long gun is comforting, but I want to be able to move as quickly as possible. We didn’t train with weapons so I don’t know how much that would affect my ability to travel quickly.
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This is a lot better than the old .38 in a crappy (read-disintegrating) leather shoulder holster I was issued.
This is a lot better than the old .38 in a crappy (read-disintegrating) leather shoulder holster I was issued.
In Grenada, most of my unit carried .38 Smith & Wessons loaded with .38 special ammo. I carried a personal Smith & Wesson Model 66 with 125 grain hollow points in 357. Had it in a shoulder rig. In Central America I carried a vintage issued CAR-15/XM177 in my aircraft. Loved that little weapon but it was beat to death by time I received it in 1984.
I thought they already had MP5k-PDWs as far back as 95.
Of course given the fact that most "behind lines" bailouts will be going up against AK pattern rifles I think a M4 or Mk18 type package would be most practical. Even if you could only pack 4 magazines, it's a lot better than having just a M9.
I rather like that in the photo I've seen, the weapon appears to be built on an A1 profile lower. So the prototype at least continues the proud USAF tradition of re-using old parts to construct complete frankencarbines.
In Grenada, most of my unit carried .38 Smith & Wessons loaded with .38 special ammo. I carried a personal Smith & Wesson Model 66 with 125 grain hollow points in 357. Had it in a shoulder rig. In Central America I carried a vintage issued CAR-15/XM177 in my aircraft. Loved that little weapon but it was beat to death by time I received it in 1984.
Model 10's with 130g FMJ ammunition?
lahunter57
12-22-18, 23:39
Should of MCX'd, folded for stowage. I might trust a pilot to intuitively unfold a stock and then remember how to charge the weapon. Assembly, not so much.
Rightly so, their training focus is airframe centric.
If we can memorize all of the systems, limits, and emergency procedures; I think we can handle this.
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ThirdWatcher
12-23-18, 03:44
I agree. Give ‘em whatever they need to survive. If you’re so cavalier with your safety that you can’t remember how to handle an M4, that’s on you. (I really liked the character Willem Dafoe played in “Flight of the Intruder”, tiger stripes and face paint. Alfa Mike Foxtrot.)
If we can memorize all of the systems, limits, and emergency procedures; I think we can handle this.
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Having to assemble the AR on landing, while not rocket science, seems like added unneeded stress that could have been avoided. I wouldn't want to have to assemble my gun in extremis circumstances, I know that much.
lahunter57
12-23-18, 08:40
Having to assemble the AR on landing, while not rocket science, seems like added unneeded stress that could have been avoided. I wouldn't want to have to assemble my gun in extremis circumstances, I know that much.
I’m not even sure I support the idea of having a rifle in the first place. If you made contact, you’re already in a terrible position. A rifle and 4 magazines, while much better than a pistol, aren’t going to suppress an enemy for long. If the enemy shoots down an aircraft, you better believe they’re going to do everything they can to find you. Your best bet is to move as quickly as possible and report your location so the extraction process can be started. Survive, evade, resist, escape.
For background, I’m an Army blackhawk pilot in training. I completed SERE last year.
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Is it possible that the idea behind giving them a rifle isn't purely for added firepower for defensive purposes, although it is a good upgrade over a pistol for that role, but also to give downed pilots some enhanced ability to take small to medium sized game if they have to sustain themselves for a while before rescue? I dunno if the USAF intends to load these with M855, or M855A1, or some other load entirely, but for the average user even the crappiest 5.56 fired out of a carbine would be more effective for shooting at a rabbit than a 9mm pistol would be.
I know exactly nothing about pilot survival, SERE etc.. but IIRC back in like the 50's or something the air force used to issue a couple different variations of .22lr rifle (Like the AR-7, the progenitor of the Henry Survival Rifle) for such purposes.
Model 10's with 130g FMJ ammunition?
I honestly don't remember. Everyone was being ordered back on base and they didn't have enough sidearms to go around. I told the Colonel I had my own revolver and I was granted permission to carry it. I never carried one of the issued Smiths. In 1983 the 160th was still in the build up phase and things were not running on all cylinders yet. Those pilots who didn't make it back in time had to rent cars to get from Campbell to Bragg for the flights to Barbados.
lahunter57
12-23-18, 10:33
Is it possible that the idea behind giving them a rifle isn't purely for added firepower for defensive purposes, although it is a good upgrade over a pistol for that role, but also to give downed pilots some enhanced ability to take small to medium sized game if they have to sustain themselves for a while before rescue? I dunno if the USAF intends to load these with M855, or M855A1, or some other load entirely, but for the average user even the crappiest 5.56 fired out of a carbine would be more effective for shooting at a rabbit than a 9mm pistol would be.
I know exactly nothing about pilot survival, SERE etc.. but IIRC back in like the 50's or something the air force used to issue a couple different variations of .22lr rifle (Like the AR-7, the progenitor of the Henry Survival Rifle) for such purposes.
I don’t think so. We’re taught other methods of food procurement. The last thing you’d want to do is shoot a rifle and reveal your location.
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So long as it doesn’t displace other gear more likely to be used, I see nothing wrong with the idea. No real expert here, but I’ll wager pilots getting into firefights with enemy soldiers is a low percentage event outside of Hollywierd. It will be a comfort item IMO more than an actual tool that is used. I certainly hope that it doesn’t create a situation where a pilot makes poor choices when it comes to evade or escape.
To be fair, that Russian pilot was a had ass no matter what. Pilots almost always get made "examples" of.
I'm going to be "that guy"... we discussed this back in June :D https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?207910-USAF-war-zone-crews-to-get-modified-M4
Moose-Knuckle
12-24-18, 06:03
I'm going to be "that guy"... we discussed this back in June :D https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?207910-USAF-war-zone-crews-to-get-modified-M4
Yup.
I even started another thread on it that got deleted and that was AFTER I searched for "USAF Aircrew GAU-5/A".
Sometimes things don't show up in searches for what ever reason or they just slip through the cracks as the Mods are busy people.
I closed the older thread. Feel free to continue here.
Diamondback
06-22-19, 00:44
Do we have the definitive "cookbook" on these things yet? Is that a 14.5" or 12.5" barrel?
I've distilled this much from photos and commentary:
Lower Receiver: A1 partial-fence
Grip: FAB Defense AGF-43S folder
Stock: M4 waffle, some sources also cite original SB15
Did not see any ambi safeties or Norgon catches
Upper: Standard flattop
Barrel: 14.5 CAR (for a private build expected to see use, I'd personally go Mid)
Muzzle device: A2 flash hider
QD System: Cry Havoc QRB with some kind of protective cover
Handguard: Midwest G3M10
Rear BUIS: Magpul MAG527 MBUS Pro LR
Front BUIS: MBUS Pro LR?
Magazines: 4x GI 30-round, flat Coyote Brown? - https://media.defense.gov/2019/May/09/2002130077/780/780/0/190506-F-MM641-018.JPG
Actually, this looks like it might be one of the more "affordable" Milspec Shorties to clone... actually, slap an SBA4 brace on the back and it might make a good truck-gun.
Wishing I had an M4 while deployed....
Maybe once ejected from a terminal aircraft already puts one in a really bad spot. An AR with 4 mags at least gives one the chance at credible defense. Much better than 5 or 6 rounds of .38. At least I can take some bastards with me.
IN a B-17, the officers up front carried 1911, but there were M1 Carbines in the back for the crew.
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