View Full Version : Just wondering you guys thought, Primer pics.
Ok, I am a little new at looking for signs. I hear about flatten primers offen, but never really knew what to look for.
After my range trip, I noticed some seem pretty flat. In the first pic the two cases lost there primers, came out after ejection, cause I find the primer, the other was about 3/4 of the way out, I pushed back in with no real effort. I am assuming maybe the primer pocket is not good.
So what do you guys think??. Some seem ok, but others I am not sure about.
As far as load data, I am right in the middle. On all the powders, I took the min and max, and split it. So they are all loaded right in the middle.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181224/e51fa1dd01f0f96758366111b2d2accf.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181224/b328a0558cb170e4e7f4667fae17f9ee.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181224/5a54ecc613133f2a402f8093fbd6b91e.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181224/f0329fd6a5a4c015207bd5953c5ee1ef.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181224/10644302ad35f225b280b5aa2e109b39.jpg
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You should never, never be blowing primers out of primer pockets. That's a very bad sign.
I'd check headspace on the rifle. If that's in spec, then there's some problem with the ammo. That very lowest cartridge in the last photo? Primer looks mighty flat. If the rifle is in spec, pressure is too high.
Are you using a chronograph? Watch for excessive velocities which signal excessive pressures.
You should never, never be blowing primers out of primer pockets. That's a very bad sign.
I'd check headspace on the rifle. If that's in spec, then there's some problem with the ammo. That very lowest cartridge in the last photo? Primer looks mighty flat. If the rifle is in spec, pressure is too high.
Are you using a chronograph? Watch for excessive velocities which signal excessive pressures.Wasn't using a chrono yet. That was the next step.
I will double check headspace.
One thing I did noticed before I reloaded those, some of the factory stuff seemed a little flat too.
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Kansaswoodguy
12-24-18, 15:25
what barrel/chamber does your gun have and what was your load recipe. They look over presser to me might check your loading scale zero against a bullet of known weight if you don't have the little scale calibration weights. I always take a flashlight and look down into all my cases following powder charging to make sure I didn't make a mistake or had powder bridging in my powder throw causing low powder in one case and extra powder in the next. All your cases look bad so I'd say it wasn't a single over pressure round something with the recipe bullet weight/powder combination maybe seating depth or crimping the heck out of the necks. Idk proceed with caution!!!
Kansaswoodguy
12-24-18, 15:28
And you have different head stamped brass your shooting yourself in the foot mixing brass if your interested in accuracy.
what barrel/chamber does your gun have and what was your load recipe. They look over presser to me might check your loading scale zero against a bullet of known weight if you don't have the little scale calibration weights. I always take a flashlight and look down into all my cases following powder charging to make sure I didn't make a mistake or had powder bridging in my powder throw causing low powder in one case and extra powder in the next. All your cases look bad so I'd say it wasn't a single over pressure round something with the recipe bullet weight/powder combination maybe seating depth or crimping the heck out of the necks. Idk proceed with caution!!!8.5" 300blk , Ballistic Advantage barrel and BCG.
Load data I will have to look up when I am home. But I went right in the middle of min and max on all powders.
They types of powders are written on the plastic bags.
CFE Black, Win 296, Lil Gun, Accurate 1680
Using Lyman 50th, Accurate powder, and Hornady 10th.
150 gr Sierra FMJBT
Now crimping is not something I thought of, I will double check my adjustment.
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cutter_spc
12-24-18, 20:32
Ah the 300 BLK...... the most finicky round I run across to date, and that's saying something, I've been loading for 30 years.
First. Yes, blown primers are a major warning sign. You should have been seeing ejector smear before that, but you stared out with "middle of the road load data", we all do it and sometimes it bites us.
Second. Your using mixed brass, which means your case capacity is varying, not to mention neck thickness. The BLK is very, and I mean very sensitive with it's capacity, just simply changing bullet brands in the same weight category is enough to throw things off sometimes. There are some brands of brass out there that when converted to BLK the neck wall are too thick and cause excessive pressures.
Third. And I know people are going to argue with me on this, but it doesn't make it any less true. Annealing. If the cases haven't been properly annealed after forming to BLK the neck and shoulder area COULD be too hard messing with the springieness the round needs to survive the relatively violent loading in the AR. If neck tension isn't enough the bullets can be set back during chambering and the same thing with the shoulder, see the Second above. You can test for this by making dummy rounds and letting them load from a mag by letting the bolt fly home from bolt lock. Use calipers to measure before and after OAL, and a case cage to test shoulder set back.
Backoff to starting loads, sort your brass, and work up in .1-.2 increments. Be safe.
This is the one that the primer was partly push out , I gently pushed in at the range.
I took a paper clip with also most no pressure push out primer.
Accurate 1680 20.6 gr ( Western Powder data)
Win 296 15.4 gr (Sierra data)
CFE BLK 18.7 gr ( Sierra data)
Lil Gun 14.4 gr ( Hornady data)
All loaded to 2.140" https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181225/d5096852a365726485c20e2df518d55b.jpg
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Sort your brass by headstamp.
Individually weigh each powder charge. I would focus on TWO powders; 'lil Gun and 296, which have long track records in 300 Blk.
Start closer to bottom of listed charge weights, load 5 or 10 rds., increase by 3/10th's to close to max. Use a chrono.
Load data that "works" in LC (as example) may/will not necessarily work in Barnes brass (as example).
Converted 5.56 to 300 Blk may have less internal case volume/capacity than purpose designed 300 Blk.
The powders you're using are effectively slow, pistol powders- which are fast rifle powders. They will be much less forgiving in minor variations of powder weight/bullet seat depth/etc. than say a .308.
It appears you are heading in too many directions at once- with multiple cases/powders, to begin to narrow down the apparent over pressure issue.
Both rounds in the first pic show obvious over pressure signs. One case has most of the head stamp ironed out and the second has flowed brass into the ejector hole.
Start at the minimum load and work your way up.
Andy
P.S. I don't reload 300 BO, but do reload a good bit of 5.56/.223 and other calibers.
I don't get worked up about flattened primers. Big craters in the primers and what looks to be almost piercing get my attention. Many times you can change brand to a stronger primer and the problem is solved. CCI #41's and REM 7.5's are very strong.
The only 2 signs of pressure i am seeing are in the top photo.
Read this link. You can learn about those weird marks on the case. And why they are there.
There is another mark we get on 5.56 loads that is a rotating scratch. That one is port pressure. Not chamber pressure. I don't have a pic. You will see it often on the back of M193 or M855 rounds though.
Jamming bullets into the rifling and, cases that are not trimmed enough can give you pressure spikes too.
http://www.primalrights.com/library/articles/understanding-pressure
When I use CCI 400 (standard small rifle) primers, I get flattened primers with known safe loads in .223/5.55.
I also run into (once fired) cases with loose primer pockets. If you are not watching for it and reload those cases, the primers could fall out when fired.
All that said - the cases shown in the first pic show severe overpressure signs and you cannot continue with that load.
With the exception of the CFE Black loads, all your pics show possible pressure signs. Compare your cases to the ones in the link AKlaunch provided and you will see what I mean.
Andy
Just for reference the primers I was using was WSR, older white box I was trying to use up.
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Coal Dragger
12-27-18, 15:08
I would get the chamber headspace in that barrel verified and get a solid number on it so you know what you’re dealing with.
Additionally if you don’t have one, you need to buy a case gauge in .300 Blk to set your resizing die so that you know you’re not bumping the shoulder back too much on your brass. Headspace issues can also be out of spec ammo, so you have to verify both. Good news is that case gauges are not expensive nor difficult to use, and will more often than not help correct all sorts of nasty function issues in semiautomatic rifles caused by improper case dimensions of loaded ammunition.
Anecdotally, when I started loading .223/5.56 the resizing die I was using was bumping the shoulder back too much, and I was getting backed out primers, brass flow into the ejector, and extractor swipes on the brass. Just like your fired cases. Setting the die to turn out properly resized brass verified with a case gauge solved those issues.
Additionally one other thing that can cause primers to back out is priming brass that had a crimped primer without removing the crimp. The primer cup just swages down to the crimp diameter and doesn’t get a good grip on the primer pocket and they back out. So swage or cut the crimps out of the primer pockets if the brass has crimped primer pockets.
As others said sort your damn brass, and work up from starting loads. Be safe.
I would get the chamber headspace in that barrel verified and get a solid number on it so you know what you’re dealing with.
Additionally if you don’t have one, you need to buy a case gauge in .300 Blk to set your resizing die so that you know you’re not bumping the shoulder back too much on your brass. Headspace issues can also be out of spec ammo, so you have to verify both. Good news is that case gauges are not expensive nor difficult to use, and will more often than not help correct all sorts of nasty function issues in semiautomatic rifles caused by improper case dimensions of loaded ammunition.
Anecdotally, when I started loading .223/5.56 the resizing die I was using was bumping the shoulder back too much, and I was getting backed out primers, brass flow into the ejector, and extractor swipes on the brass. Just like your fired cases. Setting the die to turn out properly resized brass verified with a case gauge solved those issues.
Additionally one other thing that can cause primers to back out is priming brass that had a crimped primer without removing the crimp. The primer cup just swages down to the crimp diameter and doesn’t get a good grip on the primer pocket and they back out. So swage or cut the crimps out of the primer pockets if the brass has crimped primer pockets.
As others said sort your damn brass, and work up from starting loads. Be safe.Alright alright.
I sorted my brass. Most will probably be tossed. Six different cases, most 300 stamped.
One problem is some of that brass , especially the hornady stuff I bought from another guy. And the face being hardly readable, a lot were like that before i loaded. So live and learn.
I do have a case gauge, and did check them.
They were flush. Slightly snug fit but was flush.
I am going make some more here soon.
I had a few rounds left over, so I tried them in a different gun. Look fairly similar.
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Okay, so you got some already used/reloaded brass from somebody else?
You don't know any of the parameters on his loading: his rifle's headspace, how he trims, how much he sets back the shoulder, and most importantly, how many times his cases have been fired and reloaded.
For 5.56, I use once-fired Lake City brass. I keep track and shoot them no more than five times, due to the fact that I'm full-length resizing. Then they get decapped and tossed in the scrap can.
Start with NEW or KNOWN once-fired brass.
Okay, so you got some already used/reloaded brass from somebody else?
You don't know any of the parameters on his loading: his rifle's headspace, how he trims, how much he sets back the shoulder, and most importantly, how many times his cases have been fired and reloaded.
For 5.56, I use once-fired Lake City brass. I keep track and shoot them no more than five times, due to the fact that I'm full-length resizing. Then they get decapped and tossed in the scrap can.
Start with NEW or KNOWN once-fired brass.Yup, I am learning real quick, what not to do.
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Ok, one quick question. Is there any brass for 300blk to stay away from??
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Head space has nothing to do with pressure. This information is interesting.
To find out your head space you have to measure a fired case from your chamber. To do that you need a Sinclair or Hornady bullet comparator with a bump gauge insert. Digital calipers help when you use this method. Brownells is the place.
Another tool is the RCBS precision mic. The precision mic is nice because it shows you right where ANSI 0.0 is. This will ultimately tell you if your rifle is set up for a ton of head space or only a little. Colts normally run ANSI + .004. My other fancy rifles run ANSI + .002.
No matter what though. You need to set up your sizing die push the shoulder back .003 - .005 back. Go .003 for a gun you keep real clean. or .005 when you are going to shoot suppressed. This insures the rifle will still chamber when dirty. The less bump back the longer the case life. The less bump back you increase the risk of a round not chambering.
All this very, very basic measuring does is help you to not oversize and wear out your brass early, in addition to saving you someday from an out of battery firing.
You will not gain accuracy from this. This also has nothing to do with pressure and losing primers from pockets as stated above. Head space also has nothing to do with brass flowing into the ejector hole.
The top picture is from too much gunpowder, case trim length being to long and pinching the bullet, or your bullet jamming into the lands. Crimping is not going to blow primers out of the pockets. It will increase pressure slightly.
Its not the end of the world to have a blown out primer. It is a sign to stop shooting immediately though.
RCBS makes a great collet style bullet puller. If this ever happens again pull the bullets from that batch and re measure all.
i am not saying a head gauge is not a good idea. I am saying that measuring it to the .001 and setting up your die is the "better way"
When you set up your die for this, take the de cap pin out. That way you do not over work the case neck during the process.
Measure all of your cases for the correct trim length.
Also get a curved Hornady length gauge, and the SAMI spec case for the cartridge you are reloading. That brass case/tool will be set up at ANSI + 0.0
You should absolutely know how far your bullet has to jump to the lands.
This stuff should all for the most part be understood before reloading.
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