Concave 115 FMJ

[halfmoonclip]

I've been going with Everglades for my jacketed bullet needs (and they are great to deal with, prompt, and very cost competitive...and all prices includeshipping, tho' of course the prices get better with a larger buy).

Generally, I've been buying the concave base 115 FMJ 9mms; they shoot fine, but I've always wondered what the concave base was about.

Their flat base 9s are getting to the point of being cost competitive with the concave version.

Any ideas, or even good guesses, what the concave bases were for?

Thanks in advance,
Moon

[Uni-Vibe]

I think those are Armscor, made in Phillipines.

I just received 4000 of the flat base 115s, Made in USA.

[halfmoonclip]

That would explain the better price. I may get the flat base next time.
Any idea of the 'why' with the concave ones?
Moon

[gaijin]

Best guess; the concave base helps to obturate, “slug up” and provides a better seal for the bore, which prevents gas “blow by”, helping accuracy.
A .22 has a skirted base for this reason.

[5shank]

I thought I read that the 115 concave bullets were a little under size? Need to order soon and have always used RMR but may try Everglades if the accuracy reviews are good with the 115 gr concave.

[gaijin]

That would make sense; undersize bullet allows blow by, the concave base would act as a “skirt” and help seal the bore.
Have no clue what their reasoning is, if bullets are, in fact, undersize.
Sounds screwy to me.

I use Everglades JHPs in 9mm. They are properly sized and very accurate.
The 124’s I use look like Zero bullets.

[Uni-Vibe]

I was all set to buy hardcast from Missouri Bullets. I rely on them for .357, .44, and 10mm.
But finding9mm FMJ -- real ones, not plated -- from Everglades at the same price, I couldn't turn it down.

You'd be amazed how heavy a medium flat-rate box with 4000 bullets can be.

[5shank]

Maybe someone can mic a couple 115 gr concave bullets to find out what size they are? Price on them is great, just don't want to buy something that you can't get accuracy out of, 25 yds to 50 yds.

[halfmoonclip]

Just put a vernier on some, and they're running 0.355".
Having them obdurate to fill the bore makes a certain sort of sense. I've been driving them with 4.6 Bullseye, and they're clocking 1130'sec. I've been satisfied with the accuracy.
Yeah, 4000 are a hefty package. My mailman is still wanked.
Moon

[5shank]

Ya, know what you mean, made a deal with the mail lady and told her to lay on the horn and I'll help her out. The price is right and if they shoot worth a damn I'd like to stock up a little, You never know what the Dem's will pull on honest Americans!

[halfmoonclip]

Amen!
Moon

[Bimmer]

Best guess; the concave base helps to obturate, “slug up” and provides a better seal for the bore, which prevents gas “blow by”, helping accuracy.
A .22 has a skirted base for this reason.

Hmmm... I wonder how much a modern jacketed bullet does this. Minie bullet were designed that way, but they were soft lead, and they were muzzle-loaded.

Another thought: Making the base concave increases the bearing surface relative to weight.

And the .22lr's bullet is just a relic of how revolver cartridges used to be made, right? The bullet is is as big as the case, and so the back of the bullet must be skirted to fit in the case?

Lapua made some skirted bullets for aero reasons (like a squared-off boattail), but that never caught on...

[gaijin]

Hmmm... I wonder how much a modern jacketed bullet does this....

A jacketed bullet will slug up, but it takes considerably more chamber pressure to do so than a soft, lead bullet.

Reading that the mic'd bullet was .355"- my guess the concave base was to help seal bore with a sloppy bullet fit- doesn't appear to have any merit.

[5shank]

Just sent Everglades a email asking about dia.If you have ever spent time looking for the best accuracy out of the 9mm and the better shooting 9's you will know that building great ammo can be a challenge !

[halfmoonclip]

I'm no longer a bullseye guy, and never tried it with a 9. Do have a Smith 52, and it wouldn't shoot fer squat with 'beancan' wadcutters; it wanted the skirted kind.
My one size fits all load works well enough in all of my nines.
Moon

[5shank]

7 yd blasting ammo is easy to make and fun to shoot, making super accurate 9mm ammo (Just ask AMU) will make you old, bald and pissy real fast, also broke!

[gaijin]

The heart of an accuracy load is the bullet.
I don’t scrimp on bullets for ammo that needs to shoot “Ten Ring”.

The 115’s mentioned should be fine for IPSC target A zone to at least 25 yds. Read; 3+ inches.

[5shank]

Your 100% right on the bullets, junk won't fly. Also remember your reloading habits are just as important, If it don't go in straight it don't come out straight!

[Bret]

Another thought: Making the base concave increases the bearing surface relative to weight.
BINGO! Even if there are other reasons, my bet is that this is the primary reason for the concave bullet.

BTW, that's an excellent price on the concave bullets. Their price on American made 9mm bullets is kind of high. I think they're getting their 147gr JHP's from Zero Bullets. They're price is much better on the same.

[5shank]

The price is good but they still are under size and with the wide range of bore dia. in 9mm it may be a crap shoot at best? The deal only saves me $20.00 over RMR and I know what they make and how well they shoot.

[Bret]

The price is good but they still are under size and with the wide range of bore dia. in 9mm it may be a crap shoot at best?
What makes you think they're undersized? jaijin measured them and they came out at 0.355" diameter which is spot on for a jacketed bullet.

[5shank]

I got a reply back from Everglades this afternoon......... They said they do run under sized.

[halfmoonclip]

Actually, I measured them, and the accuracy has been fine. I'm way past the age of tuning loads for particular guns; my reloads are fine in everything from Glocks to 9mm Carbines.
BTW, 9s don't have a gilt edged reputation for target work...at least so I was told by a powder vendor.
Moon

[5shank]

The man told you right!

[Bret]

So what did they measure?

[5shank]

.353 +-

[Bret]

That's terrible and a bullet setback waiting to happen. Their website says "SAAMI Spec 9mm Diameter". I'd like to see where SAAMI says that 0.353" meets the specifications of a 9mm bullet.

[5shank]

They did mention to buy a Lee under size sizing die.

[halfmoonclip]

Where was this information coming from? My specimens mike .355.
Moon

[cutter_spc]

Where was this information coming from? My specimens mike .355.
Moon

As do my 124's from them.

[Tigereye]

The price is good but they still are under size and with the wide range of bore dia. in 9mm it may be a crap shoot at best? The deal only saves me $20.00 over RMR and I know what they make and how well they shoot.

RMR??

[5shank]

Rocky Mountain Reloading, Someone ask where I got my info from on sizing and it came from Everglades yesterday in a email. As far as I can tell only the 115 gr 9mm concave base bullets run a pinch under size and should not be a problem for those that keep a close eye on neck tension so to avoid setback. For 99% of all shooters these bullets will work great for low cost blasting, just keep a eye out for setback with mixed casings. Everglades Reloading seem to be a good business to deal with and I like the fact that they are honest when you ask about a product like I did.
5shank,

[OldState]

Interesting that this is a bullet design for modern breech fired weapon. I’m not sure of the problem it’s solves.

The first thing I thought of is the minié ball of the Civil War era. It’s was slightly undersized to aid in fast loading from the muzzle and had a hollowed out base with grease rings on the outside. The based would expand when fired and take up the rifling.

[msnyder0609]

I've loaded and shot about 10k of these bullets from Everglades. I bought the Lee undersized die per Everglades' recommendation and have had no issues with setback. Currently shooting through 5k of the 115's loaded over 5.1 grains of HP-38. Also shot 5k of the 124's over 4.6gr of Hp-38. That's the only powder I've ever used. Accuracy is fine for what I do. I'm more concerned with getting reps and quality training time in than trying to put tiny holes in paper. ...I currently have some Power Pistol and some 124's on the way to make a hotter round that feels more like a factory load. I'll continue to shoot these until something more cost effective comes along...

I measured 10 of the 115's. 8 of 10 were .354.5, 1 was .355 and 1 was .354. OAL of the bullet is a bit all over the place. Of the 10, the shortest was .566, longest was .577.

[Bret]

Interesting that this is a bullet design for modern breech fired weapon. I’m not sure of the problem it’s solves.
The only real problem that I can see it solving is increasing the contact area between the case and bullet when loading 115gr bullets. I don't see this being a benefit with 124gr bullets though.


I measured 10 of the 115's. 8 of 10 were .354.5, 1 was .355 and 1 was .354. OAL of the bullet is a bit all over the place. Of the 10, the shortest was .566, longest was .577.
The length I wouldn't be concerned about, but a 0.001 spread in bullet diameter is too much for my liking.

[Bimmer]

The only real problem that I can see it solving is increasing the contact area between the case and bullet when loading 115gr bullets.l..

Didn't Berry also make some concave-base plated bullets?

IIRC, their logic was the same: More contact area (relative to weight) in the case and in the barrel.


Again, I don't see these working like Minie bullets...

[Uni-Vibe]

For only a few dollars more, Everglades will sell you 115 FMJ Made in USA flat based. That's what I got; 4000 of them.

[5shank]

Sounds like a safe plan.

[5shank]

I've been reloading for 54 years and I still am learning, I'm no expert but one thing I do know all to well is that the cost of producing top notch ammo isn't a whole lot more then blasting ammo. The learning curve to shooting a handgun can be long and when the bullets are not going where their supposed to go I want to know why and that's why I try to buy the best components I can afford and build ammo that is accurate from the get go. I guess to each their own, you just have to decide what's more important when your spending your money.

[gaijin]

^^In the same boat; "first, you gotta have confidence in your equipment".

I use Precision Delta or Zero (Everglades) 124 JHPs with range/competition ammo. From tuned, Kart barreled 1911's it shoots just over 2" at 50 yds. from a rest.
If the better bullets cost $10/$20 bucks additional a thousand it's worth it to me- even though I average over 15K rds. of 9mm a year.

When I shoot and pull a shot, I want to know it's ME and not the gun/ammo.

[5shank]

Just walked in from a session at the outdoor range (nice day in mid-Michigan) and gaijin, you are right on the money! It's hard to tell if your getting to be a better handgunner if your ammo won't hold 6 inches at 20yds, crap reloads are just that, crap!

[halfmoonclip]

I will have to touch base with Everglades, as my current stock of 115 concave base FMJs have run 0.355"; not sure if something has changed. I believe in a firm taper crimp, and the cases are run thru' a standard Dillon die. The sized cases offer resistance when seating a bullet.
It's possible that they (or their supplier) have changed their spec; if so, I'll pay a little extra for the flat base version.
Moon

[halfmoonclip]

From the (Everglades) horse's mouth-
"The Concave Base bullets tend to run towards the smaller end of the SAAMI spec for 9mm. The spec is 0.3555"-0.003". Anything in that range will work properly out of a 9mm barrel with properly sized brass. They typically run about .354" in diameter. Sometimes slightly larger and sometimes slightly smaller depending on the condition of the final sizing die in the press.

Bottom line is they typically run smaller than SAAMI max, but never smaller than SAAMI minimum, and they will always work in a 9mm barrel with properly sized brass. The bullet diameter is irrelevant, for most pistol cartridges, as long as it is within the SAAMI spec. When the bullet is fired it is subject to over 30,000 psi and will expand to fill the bore of your firearm."

If I'm reading them correctly, they're saying the diameter is a non-issue because of bullet upset (maybe the concave base is like a Minie ball!), altho' a lot of oldtime reloaders worry a lot about bullet diameter.

Bottom line for me, after I shoot up the current stock, is to have a look at their prices for both types before ordering more.
Moon

[5shank]

Sounds like a decent plan. You can never have to much good info before ordering.

[Bret]

From the (Everglades) horse's mouth-
"The Concave Base bullets tend to run towards the smaller end of the SAAMI spec for 9mm. The spec is 0.3555"-0.003".
Are you sure that you don't mean 0.3555"-0.0003"?

[halfmoonclip]

Are you sure that you don't mean 0.3555"-0.0003"?

0.0003 would still leave the bullets at 0.3552" Further conversation with the Everglades folks indicates their flat base actually run 0.355; frankly my current concave bases run the same, at least with my vernier.
Moon