View Full Version : 20" AR15A4 Home Defense?
SouthwestAviator
01-01-19, 19:30
For several months I'd been toying around with different ideas for a new AR. Well right before Christmas a great deal on a NIB Colt AR15A4 fell in my lap and I pounced. I immediately installed a VLTOR A5 receiver extension and collapsible buttstock. I took it to the range today and it's like night and day compared to every carbine I've shot. Recoil is almost non-existant, the sight radius makes hits effortless, and everything just felt right. I shot 500 rounds with no malfunctions.
I'm truly considering relegating it to home defense duty. With the stock collapsed, it's really not much longer than a 16" AR and is almost exactly the same length as my Arsenal AK47 and M1 Carbine. Is an extra 4" of barrel enough to harm my chances of surviving/success in a home invasion scenario? Am I crazy? I like the idea of the enhanced reliability of the rifle-length gas system.
If you can do it, roll with it. I have a 13.7" suppressed gun as my go-to rifle and it is probably as long as a 20" and a lot heavier too.
Couple things.
1. I think a 20” is getting pretty long for in a house unless you plan on hunkering down/staying put. Do a few dry runs and see how it goes.
2. Recoil is due to being over gassed. What carbines(ar) have you shot?
3. Muzzle jump has a lot to due with form.
4. Based in #1 vs #2, assuming muzzle jump is not a variable(it is- see #3), is maneuverability worth trading off muzzle jump? Will a carbines recoil cause you to miss when a rifle would allow you to score hits?
SouthwestAviator
01-01-19, 20:00
Couple things.
1. I think a 20” is getting pretty long for in a house unless you plan on hunkering down/staying put. Do a few dry runs and see how it goes.
2. Recoil is due to being over gassed. What carbines(ar) have you shot?
3. Muzzle jump has a lot to due with form.
4. Based in #1 vs #2, assuming muzzle jump is not a variable(it is- see #3), is maneuverability worth trading off muzzle jump? Will a carbines recoil cause you to miss when a rifle would allow you to score hits?
1. I tried it a couple of times, and it was no more difficult than with my Mossberg 590A1.
2. Mostly Colt LE6920 who's ejection seems consistent with receiving the proper amount of gas. Also a midlength BCM that felt about the same as the 6920. Once shot a KAC SR15 that felt about similar to the 20"
3. I've got a lot of rounds through AR's and am generally pretty good at keeping the muzzle on target. I don't have any problems shooting the shorter guns, but there's no doubt the 20" was significantly smoother (the only one that's come close is the SR15, but I only fired a hundred or so rounds out of that).
4. I guess that's kind of the question. Would the maneuverability traded off by going to 20" negatively affect me in a home defense scenario enough to cause a bad outcome? Ranges are so close that I doubt I'd make a hit with the rifle that I wouldn't make with the carbine, but shot placement with rapid firing might be better.
As the first reply said, the 20" is probably no longer than a shorter AR with a can, so if that's considered a practical length for home defense, shouldn't the 20" too? Not trying to receive a specific answer, just curious on everyone's thoughts.
My thought is: you’re over-thinking it. I’m a little sad that you took the original buttstock off. I had to get in the safe and reassure my Colt AR15A4 that I would never put a collapsible butt stock on her.
Post a picture of your A4 with A5 stock! That's how it should have been from the start.
How much does the AR15A4 weigh compared to the 6920s? Weight, especially in the barrel, has a definite affect on recoil and muzzle rise
I haven't shot my build with a 20" A1 barrel and fixed Magpul MOE stock in a couple months...I need to rectify that.
If you're not clearing rooms via narrow hallways, then a 20" is certainly usable in an HD role. I like shooting mine too much (with irons, or course) to restrict its use to home defense.
With A2 length butt it is effectively the same length as an 18.5" barreled Mossberg 500 or an inch longer than a Remington 870 which have been home defense staples for decades so not a huge issue on the length.
I think the 20" rifle shoots pretty soft myself. With an A5 on it, it'll work just fine if it works to your satisfaction. About every third time I'm at the range I'm shooting an A4 upper for work purposes, even though I have a "high-speed" build or two. Maybe I just really like the A5/A4 upper combo...
Don't worry man, many a house has been cleared with 20" M16A2s/4s just fine. If it works for YOU then roll with it!
Hammer_Man
01-01-19, 22:34
I've done plenty of room clearing exercises with 20" rifles. It can be cumbersome at times, but can still be done. Remember practice makes perfect.
MA2_Navy_Veteran
01-01-19, 22:41
As most anybody that knows me will tell you - I'm kind of THE A4 nut/guru around here (I absolutely love A4s, no matter the weight or setup), and certainly (with regular training) the A4 is quite capable of being effectively used for home defense even in tight corners, however - that being said - Unless an A4 is your only weapon, there are actually better tools to use to defend the interior of your house/home. Namely - handguns, especially one which incorporates a visible light or laser, and chambered between 9mm to 45 auto. As the saying goes: "the right tool for the right job", & handguns are usually the best tool for interior home defense.
I think where the A4 shines is more in exterior home &/or property defense (either shooting out of your home, from inside an exterior window, doorway, or even a rooftop, or for hog & predator patrol on farms - I used to keep mine in/on the back of the tractor when out in the corn, but now living in the city suburbs, my A4s are mostly relegated to the role of post-hurricane creature-defense & looter-watch), and while (thankfully) such uses are rarely needed, I really don't pity the gator or grabber, that looks to meal or steal, from me or my neighbors.
Some of my A4 clones...
https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=55132&d=1545597938
SouthwestAviator
01-01-19, 22:42
With A2 length butt it is effectively the same length as an 18.5" barreled Mossberg 500 or an inch longer than a Remington 870 which have been home defense staples for decades so not a huge issue on the length.
Very true. It's also the same length or shorter with the stock collapsed as the M1 Carbine.
Think I'm gonna throw a red dot and sling on it and start keeping it as my HD gun. Wonder how it'd be in classes.
SouthwestAviator
01-01-19, 22:44
As most anybody that knows me will tell you - I'm kind of THE A4 nut/guru around here (I absolutely love A4s, no matter the weight or setup), and certainly (with regular training) the A4 is quite capable of being effectively used for home defense even in tight corners, however - that being said - Unless an A4 is your only weapon, there are actually better tools to use to defend the interior of your house/home. Namely - handguns, especially one which incorporates a visible light or laser, and chambered between 9mm to 45 auto. As the saying goes: "the right tool for the right job", & handguns are usually the best tool for interior home defense.
I think where the A4 shines is more in exterior home &/or property defense (either shooting out of your home, from inside an exterior window, doorway, or even a rooftop, or for hog & predator patrol on farms - I used to keep mine in/on the back of the tractor when out in the corn, but now living in the city suburbs, my A4s are mostly relegated to the role of post-hurricane creature-defense & looter-watch), and while (thankfully) such uses are rarely needed, I really don't pity the gator or grabber, that looks to meal or steal, from me or my neighbors.
Some of my A4 clones...
Damn those are some nice A4's! I've definitely been bitten by the 20" bug. Not sure why they're out of style these days. I like the added reliability compared to a carbine length (or even mid length) gas system, and shooting it is just buttery smooth.
Hammer_Man
01-01-19, 23:01
As most anybody that knows me will tell you - I'm kind of THE A4 nut/guru around here (I absolutely love A4s, no matter the weight or setup), and certainly (with regular training) the A4 is quite capable of being effectively used for home defense even in tight corners, however - that being said - Unless an A4 is your only weapon, there are actually better tools to use to defend the interior of your house/home. Namely - handguns, especially one which incorporates a visible light or laser, and chambered between 9mm to 45 auto. As the saying goes: "the right tool for the right job", & handguns are usually the best tool for interior home defense.
I think where the A4 shines is more in exterior home &/or property defense (either shooting out of your home, from inside an exterior window, doorway, or even a rooftop, or for hog & predator patrol on farms - I used to keep mine in/on the back of the tractor when out in the corn, but now living in the city suburbs, my A4s are mostly relegated to the role of post-hurricane creature-defense & looter-watch), and while (thankfully) such uses are rarely needed, I really don't pity the gator or grabber, that looks to meal or steal, from me or my neighbors.
Some of my A4 clones...
https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=55132&d=1545597938
Sorry to detract from the current converation, but I like your style. I'm kind of an A2 junkie myself, but I would to have an A4 in the not too distant future.
Hammer_Man
01-01-19, 23:04
Damn those are some nice A4's! I've definitely been bitten by the 20" bug. Not sure why they're out of style these days. I like the added reliability compared to a carbine length (or even mid length) gas system, and shooting it is just buttery smooth.
You just listed all the reasons why I believe everybody should keep at least one full sized AR in their collection. I will never get rid of my A2, I will gladly sell my carbines before that happens.
https://i.imgur.com/r9ExbkX.jpg
Post a picture of your A4 with A5 stock! That's how it should have been from the start.
I just put this together a couple of months ago with the Colt 20" I recently stole.
https://i.imgur.com/n8JbbX4.jpg
Post a picture of your A4 with A5 stock! That's how it should have been from the start.
Hammer_Man
01-01-19, 23:29
Nice ones IG!!
It's only 4 inches longer than a standard 16 inch carbine. Tactics, shot placement, and luck will matter far more than an extra 4 inches of barrel in a gunfight.
Completely unusable, too heavy, not free floated, has a big ugly front sight thingy and isn't painted. And I think it has a useless A2 flash maker, what's wrong with you?
I just put this together a couple of months ago with the Colt 20" I recently stole.
https://i.imgur.com/n8JbbX4.jpg
SouthwestAviator
01-02-19, 12:02
Thanks for the pics, all. I'll try to get one up when I get back from work.
Namely - handguns, especially one which incorporates a visible light or laser, and chambered between 9mm to 45 auto.
When you say "between" 9mm to 45 auto, is 9mm included in that list of acceptability?
Also, yeah, if I really had to go clearing rooms and such, I'd probably opt for my Glock 19 or Glock 21 over either a 20" or 16" AR15. Therefore, there really is no niche for the carbine ARs for me. Folks seem to think that the carbine length is vastly inferior to midlength ARs for reliability, and I've had some concern about that myself. So I figured I may as well go for maximum reliability and get the rifle length system.
Very true. It's also the same length or shorter with the stock collapsed as the M1 Carbine.
Think I'm gonna throw a red dot and sling on it and start keeping it as my HD gun. Wonder how it'd be in classes.
Unless you're doing vehicle stuff it'll be great. A 20", especially with the adjustable stock is not difficult to use.
It's a poor choice vs a carbine in any type of constricted environment, same as the shotguns mentioned above. It's still better than nothing and not bad enough to worry or obsess over.
Your concern over carbine reliability is overblown, and sight radius talk can't be taken very seriously since the RDS became common and tough. These are arguments that may have been relevant in 2001, but are not in 2018.
If you have taken classes but have not been through a shoot house I recommend it.
MountainRaven
01-02-19, 13:18
It's only 4 inches longer than a standard 16 inch carbine. Tactics, shot placement, and luck will matter far more than an extra 4 inches of barrel in a gunfight.
When you consider that most, "16 inch," barrels are actually 16.125-16.25 inches long, it's actually less than 4 inches. (Not hugely shorter, but still shorter.)
I say run it. Unless you have kids or other family members in other rooms that you would need to move to in a home invasion to protect, I'd rock an A1/A2/A4 with or without an A5 stock without a worry.
Post a picture of your A4 with A5 stock! That's how it should have been from the start.
Amen to that!!
It's a poor choice vs a carbine in any type of constricted environment, same as the shotguns mentioned above. It's still better than nothing and not bad enough to worry or obsess over.
Your concern over carbine reliability is overblown, and sight radius talk can't be taken very seriously since the RDS became common and tough. These are arguments that may have been relevant in 2001, but are not in 2018.
If you have taken classes but have not been through a shoot house I recommend it.
I hope your new years resolution is to post more often.
It's a poor choice vs a carbine in any type of constricted environment, same as the shotguns mentioned above. It's still better than nothing and not bad enough to worry or obsess over.
Your concern over carbine reliability is overblown, and sight radius talk can't be taken very seriously since the RDS became common and tough. These are arguments that may have been relevant in 2001, but are not in 2018.
If you have taken classes but have not been through a shoot house I recommend it.
I've even gone to the RDS for home defense.... and I'm the biggest irons advocate ever.
I've even gone to the RDS for home defense.... and I'm the biggest irons advocate ever.
What ever happened to the Markm we knew and loved? The one who called people gay for having FF rails?!?!?! We want him back!!
SouthwestAviator
01-02-19, 14:35
Your concern over carbine reliability is overblown
It seems like many on here consider midlength gas systems to be a minimum for a dependable rifle. I'd like to believe it's overblown, but I do have doubts based on the CRANE test showing that midlengths do have a higher Mean Rounds Between Stoppages than the carbine length. Part of the reason I bought the AR15A4 was to sidestep the carbine vs. midlength altogether and go right to what is supposedly the most reliable of all the gas systems.
ViniVidivici
01-02-19, 14:36
Ha!
OP: what you're running is fine. Most important thing is to train with what ya got.
My primary go-to is a carbine, 16 inch, but if all I had was a 20incher, I wouldn't sweat it.
Hammer_Man
01-02-19, 16:14
It seems like many on here consider midlength gas systems to be a minimum for a dependable rifle. I'd like to believe it's overblown, but I do have doubts based on the CRANE test showing that midlengths do have a higher Mean Rounds Between Stoppages than the carbine length. Part of the reason I bought the AR15A4 was to sidestep the carbine vs. midlength altogether and go right to what is supposedly the most reliable of all the gas systems.
Uhhhh…….. The general consensus around here is that a Colt LE6920 is all the gun you will ever need, and those are equipped with a carbine length gas system. There were issues with bolts, and extractors in the early 2000s, but Colt took care of it and current production is good to go. Mid length systems have their merits, but I wouldn't rule out a carbine gassed rifle pending the barrel and bcg came from reputable suppliers (Colt, BCM, etc..). In the end you already have your rifle, so this is a moot point. Enjoy your A4, and get some training.
The MK18 has proven reliable enough in combat use. It's size is a reasonable trade for it being slightly less reliable.
I have confidence in a quality 16" carbine and consider midlength a nice improvement, but I'd pick quality over gas system.
I was digging deep in the bottom of the parts barrel to make this happen.
Completely unusable, too heavy, not free floated, has a big ugly front sight thingy and isn't painted. And I think it has a useless A2 flash maker, what's wrong with you?
You're obsessing over nothing. The average Joe AR Shooter isn't going to shoot enough rounds through his or her carbine to worry about broken bolts, failures, etc..
I'll let you in on a little secret as I have passed the 30 year mark of working in and around AR's of all shapes and sizes. If you have a vetted quality AR (regardless of gas system), use good mags and good ammo and keep it lubed it will work just fine.
It seems like many on here consider midlength gas systems to be a minimum for a dependable rifle. I'd like to believe it's overblown, but I do have doubts based on the CRANE test showing that midlengths do have a higher Mean Rounds Between Stoppages than the carbine length. Part of the reason I bought the AR15A4 was to sidestep the carbine vs. midlength altogether and go right to what is supposedly the most reliable of all the gas systems.
SouthwestAviator
01-02-19, 17:19
Great. Now you've all convinced me to get another carbine to go with the A4. You're all enablers. Good point about the Mk18. If it's reliable enough for the military, a 16" carbine length should be even more than "good enough".
(Still gonna be keeping the A4 in a home defense role)
Actually a nice piece. I had an A2 with "carbine" lower once, miss it and I just may look into another. They are smooth shooting also.
What ever happened to the Markm we knew and loved? The one who called people gay for having FF rails?!?!?! We want him back!!
He bought an LWRC and it turned him into a kinder, gentler MarkM.
Achilles11B
01-03-19, 07:44
Plenty of rooms have been cleared by gentlemen with 20” rifles. Train and take some classes with it and you’ll be good to go.
Sure, and M1 Garand's before that, and bolt action 1903's before that, and... That doesn't make it the best tool to choose for the job today.
Also clearing a house with a squad vs by yourself is a huge difference. Weapon retention and not flagging around tight corners forces you to keep the muzzle way down on a longer gun. This gives your attacker a better chance to grab your muzzle before you can get it up on target.
Since when has this forum turned from "train with what you got" to this "nope can't use that noob lol yolo" bullshit?
That's disconcerning.
OP has a fine weapon, and isn't going to clear rooms all day every day high speed low drag bang bang Mogadishu style. He doesn't NEED to buy a special gun just for that one occasion that will probably not happen, or spend a shit ton of money just to appease forum stranger's opinions. He can train with what he has and be very proficient with it.
Hammer_Man
01-03-19, 13:59
Since when has this forum turned from "train with what you got" to this "nope can't use that noob lol yolo" bullshit?
That's disconcerning.
OP has a fine weapon, and isn't going to clear rooms all day every day high speed low drag bang bang Mogadishu style. He doesn't NEED to buy a special gun just for that one occasion that will probably not happen, or spend a shit ton of money just to appease forum stranger's opinions. He can train with what he has and be very proficient with it.
I think people are over thinking this one. He already bought the A4, so all he can do for the time being is enjoy his purchase, and maybe L.A.R.P around his house clearing rooms, etc... Any arguments about a shorter gun are moot, as the decision to purchase a full sized rifle has already been made.
right before Christmas a great deal on a NIB Colt AR15A4 fell in my lap and I pounced.
I immediately installed a VLTOR A5 receiver extension and collapsible buttstock.
Recoil is almost non-existant, the sight radius makes hits effortless, and everything just felt right.
Is an extra 4" of barrel enough to harm my chances of surviving/success in a home invasion scenario? Am I crazy? I like the idea of the enhanced reliability of the rifle-length gas system.
Congratulations on finding a weapon you love at a price you liked!
I'm not sure why you pulled the A2 stock to setup an A5 without shooting it....
As above, I'm glad you found something you like. Recoil is pretty close to nonexistent with a A2 stock as well.
The extra 4" part being harmful depends on a few things. First and foremost, how often do you work on house clearing drills in your own house? How often do you work those same drills with your wife? If you cleared hundred of buildings in Iraq, or thousands of buildings as a cop, you should be pretty up to speed, but if not YOU are the weakest link, not your weapon. If a 20" barreled M16A4/ A5 clone is the best thing for you doesn't bring into question what other weapons you have, especially what other AR15 based weapons. Without knowing that, its hard to make a guess.
Is a 20" barrel harder to clear structures with than a 16? Is the 16 more difficult than a 14.5, which is more restrictive than a 12.5? Yes, the 20"er will make a difference, and not in a positive manner as you maneuver through structures. I've done it plenty of times, and would do so again if that is what I had as far as options. I certainly would not bring a 20" into a structure over a 16" if all things were equal.
I doubt you are crazy, but I do believe that you are overthinking things. The Army uses a 14.5" carbine without highly positive results. I would not consider the carbine to be a detriment based on its gas system.
Before giving absolution regarding weapons, I would ask that you post a picture of the setup you plan on using for home defense. That would give us a greater understanding of the where, what, and maybes we have to contend with.
I can use the same justification to avoid putting a weapon mounted white light and RDS on it as well. "I'll probably never need it" doesn't mean one cannot get by without them, but doesn't refute the advantages they bring either.
It's just honest advice based on my experience. I made specific points about the choice to use a longer long gun indoors.
SouthwestAviator
01-03-19, 14:27
Congratulations on finding a weapon you love at a price you liked!
I'm not sure why you pulled the A2 stock to setup an A5 without shooting it....
As above, I'm glad you found something you like. Recoil is pretty close to nonexistent with a A2 stock as well.
The extra 4" part being harmful depends on a few things. First and foremost, how often do you work on house clearing drills in your own house? How often do you work those same drills with your wife? If you cleared hundred of buildings in Iraq, or thousands of buildings as a cop, you should be pretty up to speed, but if not YOU are the weakest link, not your weapon. If a 20" barreled M16A4/ A5 clone is the best thing for you doesn't bring into question what other weapons you have, especially what other AR15 based weapons. Without knowing that, its hard to make a guess.
Is a 20" barrel harder to clear structures with than a 16? Is the 16 more difficult than a 14.5, which is more restrictive than a 12.5? Yes, the 20"er will make a difference, and not in a positive manner as you maneuver through structures. I've done it plenty of times, and would do so again if that is what I had as far as options. I certainly would not bring a 20" into a structure over a 16" if all things were equal.
I doubt you are crazy, but I do believe that you are overthinking things. The Army uses a 14.5" carbine without highly positive results. I would not consider the carbine to be a detriment based on its gas system.
Before giving absolution regarding weapons, I would ask that you post a picture of the setup you plan on using for home defense. That would give us a greater understanding of the where, what, and maybes we have to contend with.
When you say the Army has used 14.5” carbines without highly positive results, is this because of the length of the weapon (compare to a Mk18), or reliability?
LMT Shooter
01-03-19, 14:33
Since when has this forum turned from "train with what you got" to this "nope can't use that noob lol yolo" bullshit?
That's disconcerning.
OP has a fine weapon, and isn't going to clear rooms all day every day high speed low drag bang bang Mogadishu style. He doesn't NEED to buy a special gun just for that one occasion that will probably not happen, or spend a shit ton of money just to appease forum stranger's opinions. He can train with what he has and be very proficient with it.
+1
Training & tactics are more important than equipment.
When you say the Army has used 14.5” carbines without highly positive results, is this because of the length of the weapon (compare to a Mk18), or reliability?
I'd venture he meant "with" highly positive results. Just a guess on my part.
I'd venture he meant "with" highly positive results. Just a guess on my part.
You are indeed correct. The carbine system works fine in its current military form. That doesn't make everyone's overgassed cheapo barrel a miracle, but solid weapons like Colt aren't going to be problematic.
ETA- I need to stop typing on my iPad, it wants to autocorrect me in bad ways. I should have proofed my post closer.
ViniVidivici
01-03-19, 15:17
Train with what ya got.
+1
Training & tactics are more important than equipment.
I didn't read each post, but I doubt anyone here would be preaching otherwise. I think it becomes hard when someone is asking specifically about a weapon issue, and the rest of us are looking at it as a portion of an equation and not the actual answer.
Diamondback
01-03-19, 15:39
ETA- I need to stop typing on my iPad, it wants to autocorrect me in bad ways. I should have proofed my post closer.
OT: Stick, you might consider one of those Bluetooth keyboard-folio things. There are many reasons my clunker POS tablet makes me want to Frisbee it out into the path of a semi, but since I got one of those keyboards for it typing has ceased to be one of them.
SouthwestAviator
01-03-19, 16:14
You are indeed correct. The carbine system works fine in its current military form. That doesn't make everyone's overgassed cheapo barrel a miracle, but solid weapons like Colt aren't going to be problematic.
ETA- I need to stop typing on my iPad, it wants to autocorrect me in bad ways. I should have proofed my post closer.
Ah, gotcha.
OT: Stick, you might consider one of those Bluetooth keyboard-folio things. There are many reasons my clunker POS tablet makes me want to Frisbee it out into the path of a semi, but since I got one of those keyboards for it typing has ceased to be one of them.
Thanks, that might be the route to go. I think I would rather have typos than to have it replacing words for me.
SeriousStudent
01-03-19, 20:11
I just put this together a couple of months ago with the Colt 20" I recently stole.
https://i.imgur.com/n8JbbX4.jpg
Just how in the hell are you still alive???
There should not even be DNA traces left of you, after merely touching that thing. Your home should have been replaced by a sea of radioactive glass, and not even so much as a cockroach left alive in your town.
Good Lord, are you mad??
Eurodriver
01-03-19, 20:17
What stock did the original “M16A5” concepts have way back in the day? I can’t remember but they looked so good. I always wanted one but couldn’t justify two A4s.
Edit found it. it was VLTOR. Duh.
https://i.redd.it/v21tbb4ocyf11.jpg
Diamondback
01-03-19, 21:02
Thanks, that might be the route to go. I think I would rather have typos than to have it replacing words for me.
This is also why before I had to put my mother somewhere I could take care of her round-the-clock, I schlepped my laptop everywhere like a digital colostomy bag. :) (Limited to within ten feet of an electrical outlet for setting up and takes a half hour each way to limber/unlimber, but anything I can do I can do from anywhere that I can get power and wifi.) LOL I'm about ready to dump tablets entirely and look for a 2-in-1 Chromebook as my "mobile terminal" to replace them... Discount Electronics occasionally has a $120 10" Dell netbook that I've been considering as a dedicated Armorer Bench system except that it has a crappy low-capacity hard drive and Windows 10 gives me urges toward its creators best not discussed in a public forum and especially in the company of LEOs. :)
But now we're getting OT, so back to the main topic, bearing in mind I'm a deskbound slob who's never had to clear a building: A 20" A4 wouldn't be my *first* choice for Home D, but it'd be far from my last, a hell of a lot better than either say a Ruger 10/22, a Garand/M1A or a semi-Thompson--I think one of the "tribal elders" here once said that at the start the USER is the weak link in the operating chain, so train and drill and exercise with what you have until the hardware holds you back rather than you holding it back, then figure out what part the "hold back" is and fix that--in my case, this is a slapped-together MacGyverized 10.3" pistol until the budget falls together for my 12.5" build. (I'm limited by budget to one a year, though with some of the antics from the idiots in Seattle and Olympia I'm thinking loans, call in favors, whatever within legal limits I have to do to get my M4 and the girlfriend's C8 fast-tracked before our "Assault Weapon" BS takes effect in July. Somebody needs to tell our AG Bob Ferguson to eat a fat brown one...)
ViniVidivici
01-04-19, 08:54
Turd Ferguson should be fired, tarred and feathered, at the very least.
I get the love for the rifle stock, but the ability to change length of pull with the A5 system is a benefit to me and the folks I shoot with, especially with magified optics.
I know a standard carbine receiver extension is fine on a rifle (with the correct buffer weight), but the A5 with a standard weight buffer just works.
If you are using a musket to clear rooms, the being able to easily shorten OAL has to be a good thing too.
SouthwestAviator
01-04-19, 19:39
I can use the same justification to avoid putting a weapon mounted white light and RDS on it as well. "I'll probably never need it" doesn't mean one cannot get by without them, but doesn't refute the advantages they bring either.
It's just honest advice based on my experience. I made specific points about the choice to use a longer long gun indoors.
But don't many guys do house clearing with short ARs wearing a suppressor making it about the same length as a 20" with the stock collapsed? What specific ways would a 20" hinder one indoors? I'm not being snarky, I'm just trying to understand. I'm not that knowledgeable about house clearing.
Hammer_Man
01-04-19, 21:17
But don't many guys do house clearing with short ARs wearing a suppressor making it about the same length as a 20" with the stock collapsed? What specific ways would a 20" hinder one indoors? I'm not being snarky, I'm just trying to understand. I'm not that knowledgeable about house clearing.
14.5" barrel + 6" suppressor = 20" overall barrel length. So yes, a suppressor equipped carbine will be just about as long up front as an A4. However, the carbine can be more maneuverable than a standard A4, due to the shorter length of pull.
But don't many guys do house clearing with short ARs wearing a suppressor making it about the same length as a 20" with the stock collapsed? What specific ways would a 20" hinder one indoors? I'm not being snarky, I'm just trying to understand. I'm not that knowledgeable about house clearing.
They use it because its what they are issued, not because its the best for that task.
You cant have a rifle optimal for both clearing houses then walking outside and engaging guys at 600yards.
If spec ops are doing a house raid, what do they use?
A longer gun gives your attacker more to grab, and more leverage to keep it pointed away from them and or wrestle it from you.
Some corners are too tight to pie without flagging your muzzle at high ready with a longer gun. This means your muzzle is sticking out for your attacker to see or grab before you can see them, or you go around in a much more muzzle down stance that takes longer to get up on target.
Not many will recommend a 16" with silencer for use in a house. A 10.5" with silencer puts you at about the same length as a regular 16".
All the people who have cleared houses with a 20" in the military did so as part of a team. Tactics are different when you have numbers, something an LE member on here can probably attest to.
And lastly some of the disagreement probably comes from different ideas of when and where one would use a rifle in their home for defense. Barricade, cover the door, and call 911 is a great plan... Unless you have children on a different floor or other side of the house. Or you wake to something going bump in the night but it's not enough to call 911, are you going to take a rifle, carbine, SBR, or pistol? Different people have different answers. Some see a rifle as something they would only get out for a riot, break down, Katrina type event.
But don't many guys do house clearing with short ARs wearing a suppressor making it about the same length as a 20" with the stock collapsed? What specific ways would a 20" hinder one indoors? I'm not being snarky, I'm just trying to understand. I'm not that knowledgeable about house clearing.
Yes, but we are almost splitting hairs here concerning handling, etc in the environment you inquired about. If I reached in the safe and came out with the A4 on accident it would be the lowest denominator in how I would do defending my home. I'd wager it would be the same for you.
I'm truly considering relegating it to home defense duty. With the stock collapsed, it's really not much longer than a 16" AR and is almost exactly the same length as my Arsenal AK47 and M1 Carbine. Is an extra 4" of barrel enough to harm my chances of surviving/success in a home invasion scenario? Am I crazy? I like the idea of the enhanced reliability of the rifle-length gas system.
I'm guessing you've never cleared a building. There are plenty of better, reliable options.
People, there is a difference between using a rifle for HD and “tier one “operators clearing structures. For example I live on a farm I can use whatever I want for HD. I can grab an A4 or M&P compact or a shotgun. I’m not clearing the house. I’m holing up and waiting for the cavalry.
I’ve never been trained to clear structures and am just a civilian so what do I know?
indianalex01
01-05-19, 11:11
Since when has this forum turned from "train with what you got" to this "nope can't use that noob lol yolo" bullshit?
That's disconcerning.
OP has a fine weapon, and isn't going to clear rooms all day every day high speed low drag bang bang Mogadishu style. He doesn't NEED to buy a special gun just for that one occasion that will probably not happen, or spend a shit ton of money just to appease forum stranger's opinions. He can train with what he has and be very proficient with it.
Perfectly said.
BrigandTwoFour
01-05-19, 12:00
Late to the party, it seems.
Most gun owners aren't professionals and haven't been trained to clear a house, especially solo. Most of us also can't afford an armory of guns specially tailored to every situation imaginable. Honestly, run what you have and do the best you can. Are there some very real drawbacks to a longer rifle compared to a dedicated CQB carbine? Sure, but how much difference is it really going to make to a single person who doesn't have much training on doin git? At what point is it probably just better to do what someone said on page one, which is hold up with what you have in an advantageous position with 911 on the other end of a phone?
This is my 20" collapsible, by the way. It's my favorite one in the safe. It's longer and heavier than my other options, but it just works good enough for most things I've used it for.
https://everydaymarksman.files.wordpress.com/2017/07/p1010661.jpg
14.5" barrel + 6" suppressor = 20" overall barrel length. So yes, a suppressor equipped carbine will be just about as long up front as an A4. However, the carbine can be more maneuverable than a standard A4, due to the shorter length of pull.
Canadian Army fixed that a long time ago, they use carbine lowers (and H2 buffers) with their 20" uppers.
MontanaMarine
01-05-19, 18:38
I've got barrels from 10.5" to 20". I'd be fine with the 20" if that's what I had, and it was for many years.
I wouldn't be doing room clearing anyways. Get in a defensive position and call the cavalry, let them clear the house with dogs, ballistic shields, or whatever they think they need.
Of course everybody's situation is different, house layout, occupants, etc.
One thing for sure, M193 from the 20" at house ranges, the recipient will feel ALL the love.
indianalex01
01-05-19, 18:54
20’ is fine. Obviously shorter is better for CQB room clearing. The shorter the barrel the louder it gets. I feel like a 9mm AR pistol would be a great choice. I love the 20’ a lot though. Ammunition has been the great equalizer to make shorties very effective compared to 20’. Rounds like Gold Dot 223, Federal T1, T3 and other specialty loads. You use what you have. If you have a 20’ then you work with what you have.
glazer1972
01-13-19, 00:17
You fixed the biggest problem the length of pull.
Roll with what you've got, your attacker and the responding cops aren't going to critique your choice of weapon.
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