View Full Version : Who does hardening of "soft" gun parts?
Long story short I bought a new manufacture Inland M1 Carbine. They are known for "soft" bolts, which will deform over time and affect function. Read about it after I bought it of course, story of my life! At any rate, is there anyone who offers a hardening-to-spec service? Probably get the hammer done too as they are reported to be "soft" also.
You might be better off purchasing a milsurp bolt and trigger group, and then having it headspaced by a qualified gunsmith. I'd check the buy-sell-trade over at the CMP forums for the parts that you need.
Long story short I bought a new manufacture Inland M1 Carbine. They are known for "soft" bolts, which will deform over time and affect function. Read about it after I bought it of course, story of my life! At any rate, is there anyone who offers a hardening-to-spec service? Probably get the hammer done too as they are reported to be "soft" also.
If one or two parts are known to be junk wouldn't you have to assume the rest of the rifle is junk? I wouldn't spend any money on it.
If one or two parts are known to be junk wouldn't you have to assume the rest of the rifle is junk? I wouldn't spend any money on it.
Well, yes and no. The bolt is the biggest gripe other than occasional lack of cleaning up seam lines from the casting process, which is easily fixed. The problem with the bolt is that it is a c-hair off from milspec in some dimensions, so while you can try to swap out for a USGI bolt it may or may not work, and I don't have a plethora of GI Carbine bolts to try out (in fact I don't have any!). I was figuring if I could get the bolt and possibly hammer hardened to spec right out of the gate then it should be good to go; no trying one GI bolt after another, no headspacing issues.
Brings me back to my father's most remembered quote.... A girl that doesn't wash her hair probably doesn't wash her ass!
I looked at the new made Inland M1's as a shooter, but I heard about feeding problems, not soft bolts. How does yours shoot?
Since we're talking Inland, here is a pic of my 19 year old (Sophomore at West Point) with an original M1A1 Carbine made by Inland in 1944, original stock and wood. We had Fulton Armory install new old stock Inland bolt group and Criterion barrel. These were only changes made to it after the war was an arsenal refurb and the wood was stripped and refinished with linseed oil by us so basically a new-old M1a1. Nice shooter, and good kid. He just did some Mountain Training in Vermont over Christmas Break with a sub-unit of the 10th Mountain Division:
https://i.imgur.com/CccsLOqh.jpg
How does yours shoot?
It's inbound as we speak. Stumbled across some articles after I ordered it. I read the Guns Tests review and it was good-to-go, and I know Gun Tests is a pretty stand-up organization (had a subscription years ago). One of the senior members at uscarbinecal30.com did an extensive write-up on the new Inlands and this is where I saw the bolt info. Apparently after several hundred rounds you will begin to see peening on the right bolt lug, blamed not only on the "softness" but also the slightly-off cam angle of the op-rod. There will also be peening at the rear of the bolt (perhaps more concerning) as it could lead to out-of-battery discharges if allowed to get out of hand. Inland's customer service is supposed to be really good and responsive, but after the PIA shipping a rifle back is you will get....TA-DA!!!....another soft bolt installed.
Was figuring just get the bolt and hammer brought up to spec hardness-wise and these issues shouldn't raise their ugly heads.
Seems like Smith Enterprises (Vortex flash hider people) used to reheat treat Chinese M14 parts so maybe worth asking them.
You might be better off purchasing a milsurp bolt and trigger group, and then having it headspaced by a qualified gunsmith. I'd check the buy-sell-trade over at the CMP forums for the parts that you need.
Are you sure GI parts are compatible with the new Inland M1 Carbine?
Averageman
01-06-19, 19:30
Seems like Smith Enterprises (Vortex flash hider people) used to reheat treat Chinese M14 parts so maybe worth asking them.
Good idea, I would call Smith Enterprise tomorrow if I were you. I've dealt with them and have never had an issue.
Are you sure GI parts are compatible with the new Inland M1 Carbine?
Some are, some aren't, according to the guy on uscarbinecal30.com and he ostensibly had 3 that he makes his comments from.
Some are, some aren't, according to the guy on uscarbinecal30.com and he ostensibly had 3 that he makes his comments from.
I have a copy of Jerry Kuhnhausen's M1 Carbine shop manual I use for reference when repairing M1 Carbines. I would love to get my hands on an Inland M1 Carbine to compare bolt and receiver measurements with the drawings in the manual and one of my GI carbines.
Are you sure GI parts are compatible with the new Inland M1 Carbine?
I was giving these newly manufactured Inland's the benefit of the doubt that at least the dimensions were mil-spec.
I have a copy of Jerry Kuhnhausen's M1 Carbine shop manual I use for reference when repairing M1 Carbines. I would love to get my hands on an Inland M1 Carbine to compare bolt and receiver measurements with the drawings in the manual and one of my GI carbines.
Here, read through this: http://www.m1carbinesinc.com/carbine_inland.html
A guy I was stationed with in Panama "back in the day" is the owner of Inland Manufacturing. I emailed him about this and he replied:
Hi ABNAK, good to hear from you!!
To address some of the issues you have heard about, the issue was not soft bolts but bolts machined to original specifications. There were in line changes to the angles that we duplicated and resolved the issue that we were having. This was on a very small number early on.
Should you have any issues, feel free to contact me, I may know someone who can take care of it! LOL
We shall see...….
Here, read through this: http://www.m1carbinesinc.com/carbine_inland.html
A guy I was stationed with in Panama "back in the day" is the owner of Inland Manufacturing. I emailed him about this and he replied:
Hi ABNAK, good to hear from you!!
To address some of the issues you have heard about, the issue was not soft bolts but bolts machined to original specifications. There were in line changes to the angles that we duplicated and resolved the issue that we were having. This was on a very small number early on.
Should you have any issues, feel free to contact me, I may know someone who can take care of it! LOL
We shall see...….
Sounds like a nice guy, and will take care of you with any issues.
In addition to the Inland M1a1 from 1944, I also have an early Quality Hardware & Machine from 1943, and a 1944 Underwood-Elliott-Fisher. I can tell you that I have experimented with the South Korean KCI mags and I don't like them. Too inconsistent with feeding issues. Instead I have bought GI mags still in the wrapper from eBay and J&G Sales, cleaned them up and they work perfectly in all three of my M1 Carbines. Also got some of the GI issue 30 rounders and no issue whatsoever. It will be interesting to see what kind of mags work best with the new Inland.
Here, read through this: http://www.m1carbinesinc.com/carbine_inland.html
A guy I was stationed with in Panama "back in the day" is the owner of Inland Manufacturing. I emailed him about this and he replied:
Hi ABNAK, good to hear from you!!
To address some of the issues you have heard about, the issue was not soft bolts but bolts machined to original specifications. There were in line changes to the angles that we duplicated and resolved the issue that we were having. This was on a very small number early on.
Should you have any issues, feel free to contact me, I may know someone who can take care of it! LOL
We shall see...….
The one new Inland M1 Carbine that I have first hand experience with runs like a Swiss watch with any and all ammunition that has been fed through it.
More than a few of the GI M1 Carbines I have inspected over the past several years were badly worn and a few of them were not safe to fire. Are the bolts and receivers on the new Inland M1 Carbines manufactured according to specifications on GI drawings? If they are I can think of three people who would buy a new Inland M1 Carbine, one of them being me.
I shoot M1 Carbines frequently and keep them running for some of the local gun club members who use them for High Power matches. Inland Manufacturing has my attention.
sundance435
01-08-19, 07:57
I'm probably of a minority view in that I don't want to buy a USGI M1 as a shooter (have a Quality Hardware as a collector). So, the only decent options right now are Inland and Fulton Armory (not counting Auto Ordinance, if they still make them). Fulton's are crazy expensive, but real-deal as far as spec, completely interchangeable. I've been tempted to get their barreled receiver and have one built with USGI parts.
I guess his (the owner's) explanation of it is plausible, considering that happened a lot during the war, but given that most companies source their parts from various 3rd-world countries now parts quality could always be the culprit. Plus, there's not a lot of recent reviews of the Inlands, so maybe they got things worked out - regardless, no one is putting a lot of rounds through either an Inland or Fulton for a torture test review. I'd be interested to hear how yours runs.
We use our M1 carbines as occasional shooters because of their age, however there are enough new old stock bolts and parts that keep them running. These are fun project guns. Here is a bolt for our Quality Hardware & Machine fresh from WW2 packaging:
https://i.imgur.com/zhkluMAl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/qlgd1Vdl.jpg
I'm probably of a minority view in that I don't want to buy a USGI M1 as a shooter (have a Quality Hardware as a collector). So, the only decent options right now are Inland and Fulton Armory (not counting Auto Ordinance, if they still make them). Fulton's are crazy expensive, but real-deal as far as spec, completely interchangeable. I've been tempted to get their barreled receiver and have one built with USGI parts.
I guess his (the owner's) explanation of it is plausible, considering that happened a lot during the war, but given that most companies source their parts from various 3rd-world countries now parts quality could always be the culprit. Plus, there's not a lot of recent reviews of the Inlands, so maybe they got things worked out - regardless, no one is putting a lot of rounds through either an Inland or Fulton for a torture test review. I'd be interested to hear how yours runs.
I own an Auto Ordnance M1 Carbine I picked up a few years ago and have purchased parts for it in the past year. Unless their quality control has changed lately, steer clear of Auto Ordnance.
I love the ol' carbine...Hope you're able to get yours running.
I have a Saginaw SG that I've been screwing with for many years. I lived a hard life, apparently. I shot the piss out of it when I was younger and ignored the fact that all of the ejected cases had their primers sticking out 1/8". Eventually I decided that I should have the headspace fixed before I hurt myself so a local smith installed and chambered a new barrel assembly from Fulton. Gun runs really well and is pretty accurate, but now instead of backing the primers out, it pierces them. I change all the springs and stuck in a new firing pin, but the piercing persists. I suspect the firing pin hole is oversized, so probably a new bolt in the future. Not sure how that's going to work with a barrel chambered to the old bolt, though.
One of these days I'll get it running right...
I love the ol' carbine...Hope you're able to get yours running.
I have a Saginaw SG that I've been screwing with for many years. I lived a hard life, apparently. I shot the piss out of it when I was younger and ignored the fact that all of the ejected cases had their primers sticking out 1/8". Eventually I decided that I should have the headspace fixed before I hurt myself so a local smith installed and chambered a new barrel assembly from Fulton. Gun runs really well and is pretty accurate, but now instead of backing the primers out, it pierces them. I change all the springs and stuck in a new firing pin, but the piercing persists. I suspect the firing pin hole is oversized, so probably a new bolt in the future. Not sure how that's going to work with a barrel chambered to the old bolt, though.
One of these days I'll get it running right...
You would be surprised at how much the dimensions on firing pins vary, even new ones. Does the face of the new firing pin appear to be round? Is it jagged or porous looking when viewed through a magnifying glass? Maximum firing pin protrusion should be 0.060". The diameter of the firing pin that protrudes through the bolt face should be 0.078" - 0.002". If it is under 0.076", replace the firing pin.
An enlarged firing pin port (hole) can do what you are describing if the nose of the firing pin appears to be normal. The firing pin port on the bolt should be 0.080" + 0.003" or 0.080" minimum and 0.083" maximum. You can use a # 45 drill bit shank (0.082") to use as reference, but verify the drill shank with a micrometer. If you have more than 0.0035" play between the firing pin nose and bolt firing pin port, that can cause pierced primers.
If measuring the dimensions is not something you are comfortable with, ask your gunsmith to check the parts or someone you know who is good with a micrometer.
If you replace the bolt, you definitely need to check for proper headspace. I've removed new bolts from the wrapper that measured longer headspace than the battered bolt I was replacing, so headspace gauges are a must.
This is great info...Thanks!
The new pin was smooth and round when I installed it. I'll check it again, though, when this bubbles back up to the top of my to-do list. I'll also try to track down a #45 drill, or borrow some pin gauges from work to check the firing pin port.
In addition to the pierced primers, I do see some that are badly cratered...That lead me to suspect the firing pin port hole. I'll definitely re-verify headspace if a new bolt is needed and take it to the smith for adjustment if necessary (He's experienced with service rifles and I trust him to do it correctly)
Would a surface hardening treatment, like nitride/Melonite, help with a "soft" product underneath?
For those that mentioned it earlier I called Smith Enterprises. They said no. They would not be able to ascertain the type of metal used in the bolt and therefore wouldn't know the proper heat temp that would be required, let alone the USGI spec for that part.
Looking into a well-established carbine gunsmith. Any ideas? I called Fulton and talked to Clint Sr. (nice guy BTW) and I could see this running a LOT of $$$ with them. There is the "tech inspection" fee, then pay for whatever parts you purchase, then the cost of installation per part.
The CMP has armorers who work on M1 Carbines. https://thecmp.org/cmp_sales/custom-gunsmithing/ They have a lot of parts on hand should they need to try different bolts to obtain proper headspace.
The CMP has armorers who work on M1 Carbines. https://thecmp.org/cmp_sales/custom-gunsmithing/ They have a lot of parts on hand should they need to try different bolts to obtain proper headspace.
Their website says they won't work on commercial weapons. I sent an email to Orion7 though and will see what he says.
It will obviously necessitate replacing the bolt and maybe the barrel to make headspace. Would like the hammer replaced too.
If the Inland M1 Carbine functions properly, I would shoot it until I started having problems with it.
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