View Full Version : Target Identification at Night
Dr. Bullseye
01-14-19, 14:06
I have a Streamlight Pro-Tac, 350 lumens. I got if for HD, indoors. It works fine in that role. I have never tried it outside.
Here is my issue: It is not identifying the point of aim, a red dot or the See All Nite Sight or even irons illuminated with my current light do that fine. What about outdoors, at some distance, where someone is rattling around in an out building, or the chicken coop or with my car parked outside or home invaders just skulking around---is that light enough?
My biggest fear is not shooting someone. It is not getting shot myself. My biggest fear is shooting the wrong person. This could be a family member arriving after a cross country trip in the middle of the night, a neighbor looking for his dog, or even my wife---remember the Blade Runner shooting where his girlfriend woke up and went into the bathroom and then and only then did the Blade Runner wake up and think she was an intruder---what a nightmare.
All the red dots in the world are not going to help me with identification. Night vision goggles, and night vision expense are out.
What is the real identification range of some lights out there? Is my current white light enough? If not, what do you recommend?
You haven't tried it outside? Like walking out your door during any point of the six-eight hours of darkness every single day, just to shine it around and check? Your situation is going to be unique to you - no one has the same house and property so no one can really say if it'll work from your house to the chicken coop. That being said, the easy (but not cheap) answer is to just get the best "distance" light there is, which IMO, is a SureFire DF model.
I guess it depends on where you live, your size of your property and the laws in your state. Anything outside and I'll just call the cops. Outside my house is not an immediate threat to me
Will you have the light attached to a firearm?
Dr. Bullseye
01-14-19, 16:26
Yes, the light is attached to the AR.
A "distance" light is what I was asking about, thanks, I'll check out the SureFire DF.
Calling the cops at my summer cabin would be 1-2 hour wait.
I have an old P60 with a Malkoff 450 lumen head in it on a rifle with iron sights and I can tell you making hits at 50 yards with it is as easy as shooting in the daytime. And shooting steel at night is fun.....
I have an old P60 with a Malkoff 450 lumen head in it on a rifle with iron sights and I can tell you making hits at 50 yards with it is as easy as shooting in the daytime. And shooting steel at night is fun.....
Target ID and making hits aren't the same thing though.
Target ID and making hits aren't the same thing though.
Ok, I can clearly ID the target prior to making hits on it.
Go out and look around is the best advice. No matter what you get though, the range you can see will vary with conditions. Moonlight, porch lights, fog, rain, humidity, and other stuff will cut down on how far the light will help you see.
If using a red dot, keep the intensity up a bit. If you have it dimmed down to negate bloom in low light the dot may wash out when you hit the light.
Dr. Bullseye
01-14-19, 22:58
Go out and look around is the best advice. No matter what you get though, the range you can see will vary with conditions. Moonlight, porch lights, fog, rain, humidity, and other stuff will cut down on how far the light will help you see.
If using a red dot, keep the intensity up a bit. If you have it dimmed down to negate bloom in low light the dot may wash out when you hit the light.
I took it out on the porch and shined it around a bit in the dark. The identifiable range, that range that I could positively ID who that person was if I knew them, is about 30 yards with this light. I don't think that is enough.
I took it out on the porch and shined it around a bit in the dark. The identifiable range, that range that I could positively ID who that person was if I knew them, is about 30 yards with this light. I don't think that is enough.
Didn't think of this earlier due to the focus on How far the beam is shining. How far away can you id someone in daylight?
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://faculty.washington.edu/gloftus/Downloads/LoftusHarleyDistance.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjSz4jQ7u_fAhXmUt8KHSJhCMsQFjAAegQIBBAB&usg=AOvVaw2rwKcCXSMAH3HK0bn1y7aP
The mother of all links there is supposed to go to a .pdf file. If that fails it came from a Google search for:
2004 study “Why is it easier to identify someone close than far away?”
And should be hit #1.
Not sure the id face with the naked eye at 100 yards is exactly the level of id that is needed for your scenario since it sounds more like a distance to target estimation, but good info never the less.
https://youtu.be/ODgYcy7M6_0
Dr. Bullseye
01-15-19, 12:30
Not sure the id face with the naked eye at 100 yards is exactly the level of id that is needed for your scenario since it sounds more like a distance to target estimation, but good info never the less.
https://youtu.be/ODgYcy7M6_0
This is an excellent video. I saw it sometime back and practice on dog walk's at the lake shore where people can be seen coming long distances away.
Dr. Bullseye
01-15-19, 12:36
Didn't think of this earlier due to the focus on How far the beam is shining. How far away can you id someone in daylight?
Well, that matters of course. Family and friends "look" a certain way and move in a recognizable way. They also dress in a way with which I am familiar. Now, I am not just talking for myself here, I think we all understand these things. But, some someone I do not recognize has a gun or a rifle and is attempting to evade the light, well, the grand jury indites that one. John Shrek is talking 100 yards for facial recognition but he is talking daylight. At night, it would be great to be able to shine a light on someone at 200 yards and see weapons in their hands----or am I dreaming?
Using a light, I doubt you could discern a pistol at that distance and not real sure about a rifle. And even less sure on being able to judge if they are a threat justifying shooting them short of seeing muzzle flash.
That is getting over in to the details of some of the recent police shooting homeowner incidents where the officers involved got major get out of jail free cards (at least so far) that you aren't likely to get.
Well, that matters of course. Family and friends "look" a certain way and move in a recognizable way. They also dress in a way with which I am familiar. Now, I am not just talking for myself here, I think we all understand these things. But, some someone I do not recognize has a gun or a rifle and is attempting to evade the light, well, the grand jury indites that one. John Shrek is talking 100 yards for facial recognition but he is talking daylight. At night, it would be great to be able to shine a light on someone at 200 yards and see weapons in their hands----or am I dreaming?
If you might need to use this weapon light in the house, don't get carried away imagining how you might use it outdoors. Really powerful lights, light colored walls and confined spaces do bad things to night-adapted eyes.
If you might need to use this weapon light in the house, don't get carried away imagining how you might use it outdoors. Really powerful lights, light colored walls and confined spaces do bad things to night-adapted eyes.
There are a lot of highly qualified people trying to dispel that as internet rumor you know. That and advocating a proper technique for avoiding what consequence there may be.
Being able to get enough photons at 200 yards to see a rifle is much more difficult than most people expect. It generally requires 3 plus lux on target to be able to identify it. A Malkoff Hound Dog and Elzetta Charlie with AVS Head, which are going to throw MUCH better than even a 1100 lumen ProTac HL3, only deliver 2.7 and 1.97 lux on target respectively.....at 100 yards.
Most manufacturers specify the throw distance of their lights as the distance at which the lux is a basically useless .25 lux.
What's the furthest distance at which you need to positively ID a person?
There are a lot of highly qualified people trying to dispel that as internet rumor you know. That and advocating a proper technique for avoiding what consequence there may be.
Thanks for informing me. I’ll tell my eyeballs to stop being pussies so I can start using brighter weapon lights indoors.
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Pistol and rifle lights have different purposes for target ID at different distances. I run X300U (1000 lumen) and a M600DF(1500 lumen) at home and at work. I also have 800 and 1000 lumen lights for patrol work on my person. You won't blind yourself indoors.
All of the light, you are trying to replace the sun. Aaron Cowan of Sage Dynamics has some great videos on low light work that will help out. I teach my Explorers some of this stuff for handheld light use. Here is a good starting point.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cN2K7UhT6rk
Thanks for informing me. I’ll tell my eyeballs to stop being pussies so I can start using brighter weapon lights indoors.
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I use an 1,100 lumen light on my primary work gun and quite a few other guys are running 500+. Generally, we turn the lights on as the door is getting breached and leave them on while doing the primary search. No one has any issues with “wash-out” as long as they don’t ride their sights while searching. It can be painful if you get behind the sights on a light colored wall or mirror.
Adrenaline_6
01-16-19, 16:03
If you want ID at longer distances, the spec you need to look at is lux or candela. Lumens are just total output of the led, lux and candela is how it is focused and how far it travels.
A light like the Surefire 600DF is rated at 16,000 candela if using a 18650 and even less (12,800) if using cr123a's. This might be great for some people but 16,000 isn't going to get you much distance at all. I know everyone likes and knows Surefire, but their performance/price curve is poor. There are many other lights using the same battery that will put them to shame.
A factory Eagtac S200C2 is rated at 39,000 lux. http://www.eagletac.com/html/s200c2/specs.html
The new Olight Warrior X is rated at 78,400 lux. https://olightworld.com/olight-warrior-x
Sure the Surefire's are reliable and very well made, but the competition has caught up and passed them in most cases and are very reliable themselves. Olights CS is awesome too. I had a small single cr123 light wig out on me a few years back and they said send it the RMA form and the light...they sent me the new upgraded model for nothing.
I can't tell you about Eagtac CS because I have never had to deal with them yet.
I own a modified S200C2 for my rifle. It is rated at about 158,000 candela. The current model he is selling with the new Olson Black led and his new programmable driver is rated at 225,000 candela. A whole new flashlight world exists that most don't even know about.
https://skylumen.com/collections/v54-lights/products/s200c2vn-need-spec
I didn't realize that Vihn had updated his version of the S200. I still haven't bought mine yet.....will happen before the Spring.
Adrenaline_6
01-16-19, 17:21
I didn't realize that Vihn had updated his version of the S200. I still haven't bought mine yet.....will happen before the Spring.
You will love it. I am debating whether to send mine back to him and have him update it or just buy a second one.
Dr. Bullseye
01-16-19, 19:11
I have been looking at weapon's lights. The Chinese make 1000 lumen plus lights but they never talk about them as weapons light. So they are probably not. I have a Streamlight now and this looks like a this is a decent upgrade for the money.
https://www.galls.com/streamlight-protac-hl-x-dual-fuel-high-lumen-tactical-light?PMSRCE=GAPLA&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI36vIyOTw3wIVARxpCh1aJg2AEAYYAiABEgIBh_D_BwE
You are correct. The S200C2vn light that was mentioned is highly modified with a custom driver, and likely improved wiring. Upon request, the guy doing the modification will also apply potting material to improve the light's durability.
If you only need to be able to see 50 yards, then this extreme level of performance is totally unnecessary. If you provide a needed distance, then proper suggestions can be made.
I have many weapon mounted lights, and they are Malkoff, Elzetta, and Surefire.....not stock Chinese made lights intended for handheld use. I don't see anything on the ProTac HL-X product page to indicate that it's intended for mounted use.
An Arisaka 600 series body with an E2ST head will likely accomplish what's needed while being small and light weight.
Adrenaline_6
01-16-19, 20:18
I have been looking at weapon's lights. The Chinese make 1000 lumen plus lights but they never talk about them as weapons light. So they are probably not. I have a Streamlight now and this looks like a this is a decent upgrade for the money.
https://www.galls.com/streamlight-protac-hl-x-dual-fuel-high-lumen-tactical-light?PMSRCE=GAPLA&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI36vIyOTw3wIVARxpCh1aJg2AEAYYAiABEgIBh_D_BwE
In some cases you are right, but the Warrior X that I linked above was meant as a weapon light. They even put it through a torture drop test of dropping it 1200 times at different angles to test its durability.
As far as the modded light I linked, it is modded by Vinh for extra durability as a weapon light.
Shoot...my old Klarus XT11 was dropped numerous times from above drop ceiling heights and survived just fine. What finally did it in was a drop from a 40' boom lift onto concrete onto its tailcap which turned it on. It must have cracked a solder joint because after a month it started working intermittently. Any light surviving a drop like that is far beyond life expectancy. They weren't weapon rated either.
I find it hilarious that just because something is made in China, some people in the US don't even consider it. Sure they make cheap knock offs of stuff, but if QC standards are set and demanded, they can make good stuff too. It is that way in the knife community also. You can get great quality knives from Kizer and other quality Chinese knife makers for half the price of what you would buy in the US and they are as good or better than their counterparts.
IMHO this mindset is narrow and sells yourself short of good deals.
I personally didn't follow the link to the Warrior X product page, and the magnetic pressure switch idea is one I've not seen before.
I would have no hesitation to use an Olight, or any other highly regarded manufacturer's weapon light, on a weapon. I also wouldn't run a USA made handheld light one a weapon, if it wasn't intended to be mounted....including stock Surefires. I used to run 6Ps with Makoff drop-ins and Oveready McClicky switch kits. I'd still do this today without hesitation.
Dr. Bullseye
01-16-19, 21:25
You guys are right about the Olight Warrior, that magnetic charging is so cool as to be worth the difference between it and the Streamlight I referenced for about $75.00. The Olight Warrior is about $100.00 which is still nothing compared to Surefire's 1000 lumen light at $299.00. Charging your own batteries would save some money towards the price differential too.
https://olightworld.com/olight-m2r-warrior
Dr. Bullseye
01-16-19, 21:39
This is the Olight M2T Warrior which is slightly smaller and is lighter than the M2R. On the other hand it does not come with magnetic charging but the over two oz. difference and the $69.99 price make it attractive. Are you guys positive these Olight Warriors are weapons lights?
https://olightworld.com/olight-m2t-warrior
Not all Olight Warriors appear to be intended for weapon mounted use. An indicator for the X is the pressure switch, which is only used if it's mounted on a, yep that's right, a weapon.
Their user interface, which changes modes via different tailcap button presses, isn't what I'd call ideal for a tactical light...handheld or mounted. Both the M2R and M2T have significantly smaller diameter and shorter reflectors. Their reflectors also have a light orange peel (LOP) texture to the reflector, while the X's reflector is smooth. All of these differences reduce the light's ability to focus the photons for longer distance use.
So, what's your maximum illumination distance? I'm not going to ask again.
Sure the Surefire's are reliable and very well made, but the competition has caught up and passed them in most cases and are very reliable themselves...A whole new flashlight world exists that most don't even know about.
Good, informative post.
The consumer in me wants to believe that, but a large part of why Sure Fire is so trusted and highly regarded by professional end users is their reliability and durability under demanding conditions. It's also why I settled on Sure Fire before I retired from carrying guns for a living. Now, I work Search and Rescue in an alpine/foothills environment without anyone shooting at me anymore, but I still decided on Sure Fire for reliable, dual setting hand held lights.
I'm liking what I'm seeing from Olight, but I wouldn't bet my life on their products...yet. Could that change? Of course, but it will take proving, time and user testimony from professional operators across various field conditions. I like it when a company will readily replace a faulty product with a new one, or the updated version, but I like it a lot more when I don't need to rely on that warranty because the light continues to work as designed, and per specs with no surprises.
Dr. Bullseye
01-17-19, 12:43
So, what's your maximum illumination distance? I'm not going to ask again.
Are you asking me? Isn't asking that a bit like asking, how far do you want to be able to shoot? The answer is always going to be the longer the better.
You stated in post 10 that your existing light is able to illuminate objects within 30 yards, and that that isn't far enough. A light has already been recommended that will adequately illuminate someone that's almost 300 meters away....but that's not at all appropriate if the furthest distance on your property (or that you're likely to need to positively ID a threat) is 50 yards away. Do you actually want recommendations based on your needs, or should we just continue guessing at what is appropriate?
Here's a link to a calculator that you can use to determine how many candela (cd) is necessary to illuminate an object at a known distance to a known lux level. You can use 3 or 4 as the lux level to start.....since we have no idea how much ambient light exists on your property.https://www.rapidtables.com/calc/light/candela-to-lux-calculator.html
Adrenaline_6
01-17-19, 16:59
Good, informative post.
The consumer in me wants to believe that, but a large part of why Sure Fire is so trusted and highly regarded by professional end users is their reliability and durability under demanding conditions. It's also why I settled on Sure Fire before I retired from carrying guns for a living. Now, I work Search and Rescue in an alpine/foothills environment without anyone shooting at me anymore, but I still decided on Sure Fire for reliable, dual setting hand held lights.
I'm liking what I'm seeing from Olight, but I wouldn't bet my life on their products...yet. Could that change? Of course, but it will take proving, time and user testimony from professional operators across various field conditions. I like it when a company will readily replace a faulty product with a new one, or the updated version, but I like it a lot more when I don't need to rely on that warranty because the light continues to work as designed, and per specs with no surprises.
The only way to find out is to get one and test it for yourself. Keep the SF with you on S&R missions if it makes you feel better but SF fail too.
You could also join candlepower forums and ask the question for yourself there. There are pros there that also do S&R and I will bet the majority do not use SF. There are too many better options out there. I'm not sure what format of light you use , but state your req's in the question in the CF forum. You will get good recommendations and users with experience that used them.
More than likely, depending on what your format is, you will get Fenix, Nitecore, Xstar, Olight, Acebeam and a bunch of other options. Some will have modified lights from Vinh (Sky Lumen) or others. Since you don't mind spending the money on SF, you could go all out and get a ridiculous light from Vinh that would absolutely blow you away like this:
His best current Searchlight thrower 640,000 Lux:
https://skylumen.com/collections/v54-lights/products/acebeam-x65vn-best-searchlight-thrower
Check them out and ask...it won't hurt.
Dr. Bullseye
01-17-19, 17:30
You stated in post 10 that your existing light is able to illuminate objects within 30 yards, and that that isn't far enough. A light has already been recommended that will adequately illuminate someone that's almost 300 meters away....but that's not at all appropriate if the furthest distance on your property (or that you're likely to need to positively ID a threat) is 50 yards away. Do you actually want recommendations based on your needs, or should we just continue guessing at what is appropriate?
Here's a link to a calculator that you can use to determine how many candela (cd) is necessary to illuminate an object at a known distance to a known lux level. You can use 3 or 4 as the lux level to start.....since we have no idea how much ambient light exists on your property.https://www.rapidtables.com/calc/light/candela-to-lux-calculator.html
I honestly don't know what you are talking about. Evidently, you think I want to fix limitations on my range. No, I do not. I just want more range, as much range as I can afford and be within a reasonable weight for carrying on the rifle. But thanks for the candela to lux calculator. This is useful.
Of course SF lights can fail, anything can. $550 is well beyond what I will spend on any light, especially something that will take up that much space in a pack. Thanks for the CPF suggestions, I joined but only lurk and learn.
IPX ratings are something else that matters (to me), but I don’t hear many users talk about it. My experience with SF lights has been that they still know how to innovate, and they enjoy good resale value for the secondary market. My SAR lights are modded to take 18650s, which is something I’m enjoying seeing from other light makers.
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Adrenaline_6
01-17-19, 20:53
Of course SF lights can fail, anything can. $550 is well beyond what I will spend on any light, especially something that will take up that much space in a pack. Thanks for the CPF suggestions, I joined but only lurk and learn.
IPX ratings are something else that matters (to me), but I don’t hear many users talk about it. My experience with SF lights has been that they still know how to innovate, and they enjoy good resale value for the secondary market. My SAR lights are modded to take 18650s, which is something I’m enjoying seeing from other light makers.
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Yea, I just linked the mac daddy of his search light throwers. I wasn't sure what format light you carry (single 18650, dual or more 18650, multi led, etc) so I just threw one out there. If you use a single or dual 18650 light, this one is more affordable and in the realm of SF price:
https://skylumen.com/collections/v54-lights/products/acebeam-t21vn-best-2-18650-thrower
Still over 600,000 lux using the Olson Black LED's. Won't get you much flood though, not sure what you need.
Most of the quality lights are rated IPX-8 nowadays. Good luck on your learning journey. Don't be shy to ask though. You should get some pretty useful responses.
If a recommendation is desired, there must be some determining characteristic......size, weight, price, cd, battery type, UI, etc. The original post was centered on usable throw, so that's where the thread went.
A light that will effectively illuminate a group of people 250 yards away makes a damn poor choice if this group is 10 yards away....or in your living room. A light that's perfect for illuminating a front yard to a distance of 15 yards isn't gonna do squat if the target is 150 yards away.
Good luck in your search for one light to cover all circumstances that may possibly occur.
Adrenaline_6,
Thanks for the suggestions. I've been running 18650s for years now, but I still can't see carrying those medieval mace-sized lights in a 24-72 hr. search pack along with everything else I will need for that duration, with food, water and clothing included. I'm really not on an intended learning journey, I'm on a continuous use journey. The difference is what emerging technologies there are today as opposed to when I started out many years ago.
To the OP:
Sorry if I thread-jacked your intended trajectory here.
Dr. Bullseye
01-18-19, 12:05
If a recommendation is desired, there must be some determining characteristic......size, weight, price, cd, battery type, UI, etc. The original post was centered on usable throw, so that's where the thread went.
A light that will effectively illuminate a group of people 250 yards away makes a damn poor choice if this group is 10 yards away....or in your living room. A light that's perfect for illuminating a front yard to a distance of 15 yards isn't gonna do squat if the target is 150 yards away.
Good luck in your search for one light to cover all circumstances that may possibly occur.
My current light works just fine indoors. Outdoor lighting is to infinity, I thought that was understood. Mrgunsandgear pretty much summed up the "its too much light" argument. It is false indoors and false outdoors. Parameters for buying outdoor light are: Maximize light output (issues of flood and hot spot aside), minimize weight, minimize length, maximize shock value, minimize price.
I agree with the advice given to keep any WML switch simple. Not only for simplicity but also durability.
While simple, I had a SF tail cap switch fail and three replacements were also dead out of the box (would not push in to click). I lost faith in SF after that. I was/am a fanboy of Fenix lights but only for non-tactical handheld. Several lights have lasted years of constant use, but recently had a PD32 side switch (mode selector) fail in the lowest mode only. Lifetime warranty is being honored but I would not use any light with dual switches for WML or tactical. I still like the PD32 and PD35TAC for around the house/shop use with the easy access mode switch, but not for tactical use. The E12 (AA) is a handy pocket carry.
I only use Streamlight now for tactical handheld and WML. I have TLR-1H on a couple and like the HL-X for tactical (18650 battery, true 1000 lumens). You can get it rail mounted and pressure switched. The 2L-X (2 cr123 or 18650) and 1L-AA (one cr123 or one AA) are nice EDC/work lights. Single tail cap switch that can be programmed for high on/off only, or multi-mode.
ETA: I can’t really imagine a scenario in which it is justified or wise “self-defense” past the range of the typical 600-1000 lumen WML. Those will easily ID targets out to 40 yds or so even in heavy rain. Beyond that range, not knowing if the person is family or trespasser, I would use a much larger handheld to ID first. I would be interested to know if there is such a civilian scenario that requires a WML that can clearly ID past 40 yds. If there is it had got to be in the tiny minuscule percentage of possible threats. And at that distance do you not have time to ID with handheld and switch to lesser WML for aiming not ID?
Dr. Bullseye
01-18-19, 15:49
I agree with the advice given to keep any WML switch simple. Not only for simplicity but also durability.
While simple, I had a SF tail cap switch fail and three replacements were also dead out of the box (would not push in to click). I lost faith in SF after that. I was/am a fanboy of Fenix lights but only for non-tactical handheld. Several lights have lasted years of constant use, but recently had a PD32 side switch (mode selector) fail in the lowest mode only. Lifetime warranty is being honored but I would not use any light with dual switches for WML or tactical. I still like the PD32 and PD35TAC for around the house/shop use with the easy access mode switch, but not for tactical use. The E12 (AA) is a handy pocket carry.
I only use Streamlight now for tactical handheld and WML. I have TLR-1H on a couple and like the HL-X for tactical (18650 battery, true 1000 lumens). You can get it rail mounted and pressure switched. The 2L-X (2 cr123 or 18650) and 1L-AA (one cr123 or one AA) are nice EDC/work lights. Single tail cap switch that can be programmed for high on/off only, or multi-mode.
ETA: I can’t really imagine a scenario in which it is justified or wise “self-defense” past the range of the typical 600-1000 lumen WML. Those will easily ID targets out to 40 yds or so even in heavy rain. Beyond that range, not knowing if the person is family or trespasser, I would use a much larger handheld to ID first. I would be interested to know if there is such a civilian scenario that requires a WML that can clearly ID past 40 yds. If there is it had got to be in the tiny minuscule percentage of possible threats. And at that distance do you not have time to ID with handheld and switch to lesser WML for aiming not ID?
Thanks for the discussion on Streamlight HL-X. That is exactly the kind or recommendation I was hoping for. But 40 yards, 120 ft.? My driveway is longer than that in my summer house. Suspicious people were on the next property beyond that. We have had break-ins here. Bears use the street as highways to pick berries. There is plenty of reason for me to want to see as much as possible. Also, this property is in a dense forest where you cannot ever get enough light to illuminate anything properly. Identification may not be shooting. If I shot anybody not shooting or threatening to shoot back, it is a trial for sure but I need to see who people are and what they doing way before shooting. The only thing I know for certain is my current light is not going to help much with this.
And that is why I think you are chasing a ghost in trying to find a lightweight, compact, WML that will throw enough lux at 100+ yds for facial ID. Get a larger handheld for long range ID and a compact 1000 lumen WML for things close enough you might have to shoot.
Otherwise you need a larger, heavier WML with a much larger lens and reflector and battery capacity to reach out that far with crystal clear ID.
Choice is one big WML that reaches to hell and gone but is bulky and heavy (often used by night varmint hunters), or a big handheld and intense but compact and more range limited WML.
Personally I do not subscribe to the idea of using weapon mounted optics or lights to ID (point muzzle at) suspicious noises or movement unless it is within my home or other situation that would justify a shooting. If I hear a bump or clatter outside I am investigating with my best handheld and a firearm with WML holstered or on a sling if I lived on a large property. I just don’t get the need to be using a WML to ID subjects 100-200 yds away (although you have not stated the actual max distance you want to ID).
Dr. Bullseye
01-18-19, 18:00
And that is why I think you are chasing a ghost in trying to find a lightweight, compact, WML that will throw enough lux at 100+ yds for facial ID. Get a larger handheld for long range ID and a compact 1000 lumen WML for things close enough you might have to shoot.
Otherwise you need a larger, heavier WML with a much larger lens and reflector and battery capacity to reach out that far with crystal clear ID.
Choice is one big WML that reaches to hell and gone but is bulky and heavy (often used by night varmint hunters), or a big handheld and intense but compact and more range limited WML.
Personally I do not subscribe to the idea of using weapon mounted optics or lights to ID (point muzzle at) suspicious noises or movement unless it is within my home or other situation that would justify a shooting. If I hear a bump or clatter outside I am investigating with my best handheld and a firearm with WML holstered or on a sling if I lived on a large property. I just don’t get the need to be using a WML to ID subjects 100-200 yds away (although you have not stated the actual max distance you want to ID).
You have a point. Maybe a larger, hand held light would be better. I will look into this. Do you have any suggestions? These possibilities so far have all be suspect as WML except the Streamlight. These are Wowtac A15, Cree XP-LED, Olight Warrior, Fenix UC35, Nitenumen NE01, ThruNite TN12, Nitecore Precise P12GT. Could these take concussion of an AR15? In looking at these larger, hand held lights are also offered as suggestions by some of these companies.
ID distance is as far as possible. It is not simply facial ID. Known people move, look, walk, act in a certain way which will be familiar so these will be identified at even greater distance with less light.
And that is why I think you are chasing a ghost in trying to find a lightweight, compact, WML that will throw enough lux at 100+ yds for facial ID. Get a larger handheld for long range ID and a compact 1000 lumen WML for things close enough you might have to shoot.
Otherwise you need a larger, heavier WML with a much larger lens and reflector and battery capacity to reach out that far with crystal clear ID.
Choice is one big WML that reaches to hell and gone but is bulky and heavy (often used by night varmint hunters), or a big handheld and intense but compact and more range limited WML.
Personally I do not subscribe to the idea of using weapon mounted optics or lights to ID (point muzzle at) suspicious noises or movement unless it is within my home or other situation that would justify a shooting. If I hear a bump or clatter outside I am investigating with my best handheld and a firearm with WML holstered or on a sling if I lived on a large property. I just don’t get the need to be using a WML to ID subjects 100-200 yds away (although you have not stated the actual max distance you want to ID).
Same here. This just sounds like a job for a strong handheld flashlight if the need is just to ID someone on your property. I cannot envision shining a WML at 100 yards and then engaging with the rifle in a SD scenario. Not saying that there isn't some scenario that might require that but in that case NV would be the right tool.
Dr. Bullseye
01-18-19, 21:42
Same here. This just sounds like a job for a strong handheld flashlight if the need is just to ID someone on your property. I cannot envision shining a WML at 100 yards and then engaging with the rifle in a SD scenario. Not saying that there isn't some scenario that might require that but in that case NV would be the right tool.
OK. I've got it. Thanks
Adrenaline_6
01-18-19, 21:48
A Streamlight HLX? That thing is rated at 27,600 cd. Sure it's better than the SF DF...but still abysmal in the grand sheme of things for what the OP seems to be looking for.
I gave you the link for the Warrior X. I did not recommend the other versions of the Warrior because they were not tested like the X was. It has almost 3x the throw of the HLX for a good price. If you wait for one of Olights flash sales you can save money. They sold them for 40% off during Christmas.
I don't know what your budget is either, but I also gave you a way better, more expensive choice too, which I own (an older version - led technology changes and so does his mods). You have options.
Dr. Bullseye
01-19-19, 00:07
I really have not considered shooting outside at night until recently. In thinking about my summer home the max. distance I can see in daylight is 100 yards, so 100 yards is going to be the upper limit. Maybe a WML would work there??? But the winter house is in an area much more open and I have been thinking here in response to NWPilgrim's questions about distance. So, for instance, on the other side of the lake we have a shooting range which goes out to 600 meters. There is nothing special here but a natural backstop. This means any real lighting outside the area where houses are located would need a big, hand held light.
Dr. Bullseye
01-19-19, 00:30
A Streamlight HLX? That thing is rated at 27,600 cd. Sure it's better than the SF DF...but still abysmal in the grand sheme of things for what the OP seems to be looking for.
I gave you the link for the Warrior X. I did not recommend the other versions of the Warrior because they were not tested like the X was. It has almost 3x the throw of the HLX for a good price. If you wait for one of Olights flash sales you can save money. They sold them for 40% off during Christmas.
I don't know what your budget is either, but I also gave you a way better, more expensive choice too, which I own (an older version - led technology changes and so does his mods). You have options.
The Streamlight lux is 3.14 at 100 yards, dim twilight at best. The Warrior X has 78,400 candela so 9.37 lux at 100 yards, better than twilight but not bright. The Warrior X is larger, 1.61 inches in diameter and 7.76 oz. but 2000 lumens. Can this work as a WML? Every manufacturer seems to want to avoid discussing WML except Streamlight and SureFire. Fenix in emails says their Fenix UC35 is suitable to mount on an AR15. Likewise, ThruNite says their ThruNite TN12 V2 Max is suitable to mount on an AR15. Mrgunsandgear says of the two the ThruNite may be a better choice. ThruNite is certainly the cheapest and lightest and comes with a rechargeable battery and USB charger for $59.99. Since I'm not going out to 100 yards with a WLM anyway, and half of that seems realistic, I am just going with the TruNite and then get a hand held light in addition.
Slight de-rail for a possible other solution, albeit more expensive:
Is there a way to put pole lights up on your property and tie them into a master switch and/or motion? That way, you can throw the lights if you hear something or they trip on their own and you get a clear view of things with the added benefit of not giving your position away with a WML? I will say that a real downside to long distance target ID (for you) is when you lose track of the person after they say “oh shit” and run. Then you’re broadcasting your position searching with your light while they’re possibly lining up crosshairs. I know of two guys that have made fairly long distance hits without a WML. One was based off a suspect’s muzzle-flashes while shooting at other guys and the other was based on the bad guy’s WML and muzzle profile while he was scanning for the good guys. They didn’t know who hit them from where.
Just a thought.
Back on topic: have any of the above mentioned face-melting lights kept running after getting smashed? I will say part of the allure of SF and Streamlight (I have 2 protachs on rifles and 1 on a duty belt and 3 TLR-1s on pistols) is that they can take a for-real beating and keep running.
Adrenaline_6
01-25-19, 11:00
Slight de-rail for a possible other solution, albeit more expensive:
Is there a way to put pole lights up on your property and tie them into a master switch and/or motion? That way, you can throw the lights if you hear something or they trip on their own and you get a clear view of things with the added benefit of not giving your position away with a WML? I will say that a real downside to long distance target ID (for you) is when you lose track of the person after they say “oh shit” and run. Then you’re broadcasting your position searching with your light while they’re possibly lining up crosshairs. I know of two guys that have made fairly long distance hits without a WML. One was based off a suspect’s muzzle-flashes while shooting at other guys and the other was based on the bad guy’s WML and muzzle profile while he was scanning for the good guys. They didn’t know who hit them from where.
Just a thought.
Back on topic: have any of the above mentioned face-melting lights kept running after getting smashed? I will say part of the allure of SF and Streamlight (I have 2 protachs on rifles and 1 on a duty belt and 3 TLR-1s on pistols) is that they can take a for-real beating and keep running.
Like I mentioned above, my Klarus XT11 that I owned, had drops from above 8' onto concrete more often than I could count and kept on working. What finally did it in (I surmise) is that I dropped it off a 40' lift onto concrete onto its tailcap which turned it on. It worked for about a month after that and then started going intermittent then dimmed. I think the drop broke a solder joint on the driver because if I warmed it up at the joint, it would turn on full brightness. It lived beyond its expectations though and was not even weapon mount rated. I don't know what for-real beating means to you, but to me, that is more than any light should take and expect it to work.
The Olight Warrior X that was mentioned is actually the first light to get officially drop tested. They dropped tested it from 2 meters 1200 times from all different angles. No problem..not even a cracked lens (which is 3mm thick tempered). The magnetically attached remote switch looks to be a cool feature too.
In depth review:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?453507-Review-Olight-Warrior-X
Like I mentioned above, my Klarus XT11 that I owned, had drops from above 8' onto concrete more often than I could count and kept on working. What finally did it in (I surmise) is that I dropped it off a 40' lift onto concrete onto its tailcap which turned it on. It worked for about a month after that and then started going intermittent then dimmed. I think the drop broke a solder joint on the driver because if I warmed it up at the joint, it would turn on full brightness. It lived beyond its expectations though and was not even weapon mount rated. I don't know what for-real beating means to you, but to me, that is more than any light should take and expect it to work.
The Olight Warrior X that was mentioned is actually the first light to get officially drop tested. They dropped tested it from 2 meters 1200 times from all different angles. No problem..not even a cracked lens (which is 3mm thick tempered). The magnetically attached remote switch looks to be a cool feature too.
In depth review:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?453507-Review-Olight-Warrior-X
Real beating to me is stuff like having it getting smashed into stuff while way out on the end of a rifle. But, I think it bombing 40’ and still running, though somewhat compromised, is pretty friggin impressive.
Adrenaline_6
01-26-19, 20:41
Real beating to me is stuff like having it getting smashed into stuff while way out on the end of a rifle. But, I think it bombing 40’ and still running, though somewhat compromised, is pretty friggin impressive.
I got ya. I don't think being on the end of a rifle and banging into stuff would even equate to dropping it from above drop ceiling heights.
El Vaquero
02-04-19, 19:26
Pole lights is good idea or even those battery/solar powered motion LED lights. Can mount those to trees or poles and don’t need to run a wire out there.
I like this method so maybe you won’t have to pop your weapon light on till your ready. Once you pop it on you give away your position. They may not know you’re holding a gun but they know someone is there.
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