View Full Version : Response to local indoor range RO reprimand/Please read and provide thoughts & insigh
Hi all,
I recently was reprimanded by an RO at a local indoor range here in Ohio for shooting a paper, silhouette, target that was taped to a cardboard backing (middle of the cardboard) from 25 feet away with my .223 carbine. I was shooting from a standing position into the COM of the silhouette target when I was told that I was not allowed to shoot a high powered rifle at a target, unless the target was towards the bottom of the cardboard and was at the end of the range 25 yards away. There was no such rule listed on the wall among the other range rules at the facility or on their website. Once informed, I responded in a very professional manner and politely asked the RO if he would please explain the safety concern which he failed to do (more details below). In all honesty, I really was curious because I couldn't understand how a paper target 25 feet away was less safe than the same target at 25 yards since the trajectory was parallel to the ground and the projectile was hitting the same backstop at 25 yards either way, but I figured that I might have learned something that I didn't know. Please read the email below that I sent to the range through their website which will provide more details and let me know any thoughts that you may have, especially if someone can educate me on the safety issue, since the range never responded to my email. Let me also preface this, by letting you all know that I have taken multiple training courses for handguns and carbines, most recently a 3 day Shoot House Course at a LEO training facility. I take safety and training very seriously, plus I truly enjoy the training and the learning. Additionally, the RO was very curt when he approached me and less than helpful with his responses when I inquired about the concerns. His responses made me feel as if he didn't know why the rule actually existed. I tried very hard to be professional and polite when I wrote the email, so please let me know if you feel that I came off as a being difficult. Thanks again for any feedback that you can provide.
>>To whom it may concern:
First, please let me make it clear that I pride myself on being extremely fanatical when it comes to the rules of firearm safety and as a result I am always implementing safety while handling and using firearms. Additionally, I completely respect the rules of the ranges I visit. I continually make it a point to abide by the rules of said ranges, because when I am a patron of a specific range, I believe that I am a guest in their house, so to speak. I live by this regardless of whether I agree with or understand the rules of the range I am visiting, because I feel it is entirely at the discretion of the range to determine the rules they want to implement and enforce. I understand there may be a reason for a rule which makes complete sense that I am simply failing to grasp. It is entirely possible that the logic behind that rule may just be beyond what I have learned up to that point.
That said, today while visiting your range in Newbury, I was reprimanded. I was shooting the center mass of a torso target from 25 feet away with 5.56 carbine. A gentleman tapped me on the shoulder and informed me that I was not allowed to shoot a "high powered rifle" at the range unless the target was mounted all the way towards the bottom of the cardboard backing and that target was at the far end of the range, 25 yards away. Since I wanted to work on my hold overs at room clearing distances, I was disappointed. In order to further clarify I said, " So, I cannot shoot at room clearing distances with my carbine" and was I told that was correct. Since I always believe in following the rules of the ranges I visit, I felt bad that I was unknowingly violating a rule of your range. I also was interested in learning something that I did not know or understand. I fully realize that there are plenty of things I have not yet learned and I like to continue growing my knowledge base, so I queried the gentleman. I inquired why shooting a paper target, at a trajectory parallel to the ground and chest high 25 feet away, was LESS SAFE than shooting the same target, at the same trajectory and relatively the same height 50 feet farther away. I simply was trying to learn something new and the response that I received was, "It's always been that way. It's been that way for the past five years." Unfortunately, this did not help me to increase my knowledge and I failed to pick up anything new. I was hoping that you might be able to explain in greater detail how this rule increases safety over shooting the same target 50 feet farther down range. I also, would like to apologize again for failing to obey one of your range's rules. At the same time I would like to point out that this rule which has been in effect since the range opened was not among the Range Rules I reviewed on your website prior to visiting your facility. Please realize that I am not writing this as a complaint. Your rules are entirely your prerogative and I respect that. I simply would like to understand the safety aspect pertaining to the rule and point out in my defense that it is hard to follow a rule which is not listed among the all the other Range Rules. Thank you very much for your time and allowing me to shoot at your facility.
Regards,
SB<<
Their range, their rules but as an NRA certified RSO for years I'd insist to see the rule that was violated in writing.
Their Range, their rules whether written or verbal. Seems you are making a bigger deal out of this than needed. Your first clue the RO was a doofus was when he said your 223 was "high powered rifle"
SomeOtherGuy
01-14-19, 20:00
I don't see any safety issue. Many Fudd ranges ban people from doing anything even remotely tactical, and shooting a torso target at 25 feet probably screams tactical to the Fudd lizard brain.
I haven't used our state DNR ranges in 12+ years, but when I last did they totally prohibited torso-like targets for any purpose, and had a bunch of other anti-tactical, anti-self-defense type rules.
I agree with HKGuns.
I'd just assume that the range was deficient in explaining the whys of their rules to their employee and that the employee thought he was important because of his position.
You can dry drill holdovers if you cant go outdoors to do them live.
We have a range near my current location that has a black line on the backer. Targets must be posted below it to prevent people from shooting the hangers.
Probably someting similar, maybe the ceiling. They also have a boundary on the wall side end ports to prevent shooting the walls. Most likely property preservation, not safety. Doesnt sound like the guy ripped you a new one either.
Comply, and move on. Dont take it personal - its really not a big deal. Fwiw, a few ROs have things they “like” that they enforce. Its bullshit, but they are the RO. Quietly complying, enjoying the rest of your range visit and forgetting it makes things much easier.
The R/O is under no obligation to explain what the costs are for fixing the range, what the liabilities are, what the angle of the backstop is, why your AR is considered a high power rifle on that range, or anything else. That doesn't mean he or she is being a jerk, it means more likely they are tired or having to play debate each time they tell someone something.
If you have ever spent time with a small child who asks "why?" over and over, that is what it is like at times dealing with the public when you explain something to them.
To the OP, I'm not saying you were a problem, or that the R/O was either, just giving another side to things.
It is probably a LCD (lowest common denominator) thing. The rso doesn’t know the skill level of each customer but does know that there are a lot holes in the ceiling, hence requiring the target be put further down the range.
They should put up a sign/notice to inform customers of that “rule” / requirement. It would make things easier for them and the customers
Did the range reply with:
TL;DR?
Having run a range, and RSO'd that range for several years, we ended up setting rules that had to be followed. Subsequent RSO's following along years later sometimes had no idea why that certain rule existed, just that it did exist.
For example, our 50 yd range was used for handguns only. Steel targets were stored along side the range and use was allowed with handguns. We always had some guy that wanted to use a pistol caliber carbine on the range, and while technically correct that they wouldn't cause more damage, it was far easier to ban shouldered weapons on that range. Then came along the AR pistol craze that made a mess of it again because some jack ass would have to argue that his 5.56 was a pistol and it wouldn't hurt our plate rack (which it would). I handled a complaint a day on that stupid range because my RSO's had to make on the spot decisions to protect the equipment and sometimes those decisions weren't always correct, but they always erred on the side of safety of the shooters and our equipment.
Your letter is fine, but I bet they will respond with the reason why they don't allow it. I will also bet that they say horizontal errors in your shooting at that distance cause issues with their equipment while using rifle calibers in their facility.
Good input.
It is impossible for the RO to tell that one is a Tactical Ninja at a glance, that the rules should not apply to you.
I prefer to shoot outdoors. Being a Ninja with a gun myself, there is WAY to much drama at the indoor range for my liking.
Thanks everyone! All very good responses. I appreciate the "Devil's Advocate" side of things too. I sent the email December 29th and received no response. I doubt that I will, but I do understand the possibility that the rule was made in order to reach the lowest common denominator of patrons. It was just frustrating, cuz I had just put a new optic on the carbine and zeroed it for 100 yards on a 25 yard compensated target at their range. After doing that, I was just trying to get an idea of POA/POI at closer distances to get a feel for the reticle hold over, because it's winter and cold outside, so I was being a sissy! Appreciate everyone's help and opinions! Thanks again!
Their Range, their rules whether written or verbal. Seems you are making a bigger deal out of this than needed. Your first clue the RO was a doofus was when he said your 223 was "high powered rifle"
Just let it go.
Agree with both of you.
No offense to ROs on this board but I find most of them to be doofuses! I won't go to a range that has one. Luckily for me the two ranges near me don't. Instead they just have cameras. Every time I've seen an RO he was doing or saying something stupid. And many are on a mini power trip. I have a outdoor range within walking distance of my house. Instead I drive 10 miles to avoid the ROs
OP, he either didn't understand his own rules or explained it wrong. If they reply to you...great! If not it doesn't matter. I'd just avoid that place.
Agree with both of you.
Another ditto unfortunately. When I read threads like this I am really thankful I don't have to go to ranges to shoot.
Obviously, the posters in this thread cannot see the target holder or the type and position of the bullet trap, baffles, etc. It may be an equipment issue on the part of the range. It may be that they have concerns about how the projectiles strike the bullet trap and rounds bouncing back. They may have had issues with tactical Fudd's bouncing rounds off the floor, ceiling and walls in the past and implemented rules to try to minimize damage to the range.
Let's face it, some people in the shooting community are not that smart. You may be an experienced marksman who exercises excellent safety practices, but rules are made for the shooting community as a whole. It can be frustrating for those of us who exercise good shooting practices, but restrictions are established for the guy who was at the range before you arrived or the guy who will be shooting after you leave. An explanation given by range management may alleviate your concerns and the RO may not be knowledgeable or experienced enough to explain issues with their equipment.
I've been involved to some extent in management of indoor ranges and you have to establish some restrictions to accommodate equipment limitations. It's not always what you say to someone using the range, but how you say it. Would you have been happier if the RO suggested speaking with the range manager or owner for a better explanation of the restrictions?
Obviously, the posters in this thread cannot see the target holder or the type and position of the bullet trap, baffles, etc. It may be an equipment issue on the part of the range. It may be that they have concerns about how the projectiles strike the bullet trap and rounds bouncing back. They may have had issues with tactical Fudd's bouncing rounds off the floor, ceiling and walls in the past and implemented rules to try to minimize damage to the range.
Let's face it, some people in the shooting community are not that smart. You may be an experienced marksman who exercises excellent safety practices, but rules are made for the shooting community as a whole. It can be frustrating for those of us who exercise good shooting practices, but restrictions are established for the guy who was at the range before you arrived or the guy who will be shooting after you leave. An explanation given by range management may alleviate your concerns and the RO may not be knowledgeable or experienced enough to explain issues with their equipment.
I've been involved to some extent in management of indoor ranges and you have to establish some restrictions to accommodate equipment limitations. It's not always what you say to someone using the range, but how you say it. Would you have been happier if the RO suggested speaking with the range manager or owner for a better explanation of the restrictions?Exactly! But why not just say so in the first place! -hey bud, I'm sorry but you'd have to shoot from 50 yards and have the target lower because of the way our bullet traps are designed!
I kinda have to wonder based on things like banning any ammunition that will attract a magnet because it will allegedly damage steel targets while simultaneously allowing 45gr jhp .223 and being able to ignore the craters.
I kinda have to wonder based on things like banning any ammunition that will attract a magnet because it will allegedly damage steel targets while simultaneously allowing 45gr jhp .223 and being able to ignore the craters.
I don't about steel "targets", but I've seen steel core ammunition reek havoc on bullet traps at indoor ranges. People get upset when you explain the restriction on steel core ammunition and post scathing remarks on Twitter, Facebook, etc., without mentioning what the range owner or RO told them about damage to equipment.
OP, you need to join a private gun club.
You already posted this on 2 gun boards.
What is your point?
Open your own range if you feel so blindly you were smitted and feel entitled.
Already, I know your age and probably the brand of truck you drive.
Go to the cafe, eat a humble pie and move on.
As I stated on the other board, my indoor range closed because of ricochet, accidents, people misusing equipment.
Follow their rules or go to the bank and open your own range.
Good luck.
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
OP, you need to join a private gun club.
That's sound advice, but the OP may want to speak with current gun club members about restrictions on shooting on the move, target placement etc. before joining.
I don't about steel "targets", but I've seen steel core ammunition reek havoc on bullet traps at indoor ranges. People get upset when you explain the restriction on steel core ammunition and post scathing remarks on Twitter, Facebook, etc., without mentioning what the range owner or RO told them about damage to equipment.
Not as sure on indoor range backstops either. And on the "any" ammo that will attract a magnet, I should have tossed in a caveat about steel jacketed ammo (which in my experience won't damage steel targets) versus something like .30-06 M2 ball which will, of course, work as intended on steel. And all the while not taking issue with 45gr jhp .223 which (in my experience) will chew up targets in short order due to velocity. One that does seem legit, but usually isn't listed as the logic, is steel on steel hits causing sparks and fire potential.
Another one further back was a USFS employee at their public range convinced people were mowing down 4x4 treated target frames with machine guns while equally certain the #7-1/2 & #8 pellets embedded in the stubs along with the pile of 12 gauge empties 10' away played no role in the damage.
In the case of one of our local indoor ranges, the business owner has to weigh their $700,000 investment on bullet traps against restrictions on target placement and ammunition used. Making $15-$30 on a range fee vs a $700,000 investment is a consideration.
Just let it go.
My thoughts, also.
That's sound advice, but the OP may want to speak with current gun club members about restrictions on shooting on the move, target placement etc. before joining.
And that his dues won't be used to subsidize trap and skeet while the rifle/pistol range get neglected.
You already posted this on 2 gun boards.
What is your point?
Open your own range if you feel so blindly you were smitted and feel entitled.
Already, I know your age and probably the brand of truck you drive.
Go to the cafe, eat a humble pie and move on.
As I stated on the other board, my indoor range closed because of ricochet, accidents, people misusing equipment.
Follow their rules or go to the bank and open your own range.
Good luck.
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
Really? I don't believe anything about my post makes me appear as if I feel entitled. I was looking for opinions as to what the concern was, so that I could add more to my knowledge base. I didn't post looking for arguments or criticism. I find the confrontational nature of your response amusing. Just for the sake of argument? How old am I and what kind of truck do you think I drive? I mean, since you know me so well. Perhaps you were the RO that reprimanded me? If so, I again apologize for violating a rule that I had no way of knowing existed.
Like I said, I understand the creation of the rules are for everyone's safety and are created based upon the lowest common denominator of shooter. For clarification for those who raised certain points in their post. I wasn't using steel core ammunition and like I said there was no such rule listed among the rules. The range had been in existence for five years, so I found it odd that a rule that had been in place that entire time wasn't listed among all the range rules. IF it had been, I would not have been breaking the rule. It is hard to follow rules that you are unaware of. Consider it let go by me. I agree, a private club sounds like an amazing idea.
You remind me of the guy who destroyed all of the chronos at my current range.
Instructions was written all over on how to use it yet he destroyed it and then whines that he is Russian and his English wasn't so good on how to use it.
Press on
Wait for zero fps to show.
Shoot inside the chrono space
Do not shoot chrono..
Do not shoot the wires surrounding the chrono.
Still he shot the chrono...and wire.
You understand everything what was going on.
All ranges have range nazis and funky rules.
End of the day like on the other board.
There rules, there setup..end of story..
Or go to the next board meeting and read to the committee everything you just wrote.
Or
Open your own private range and make your own rules that suits you.
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
ChattanoogaPhil
01-15-19, 12:41
I recently was reprimanded by an RO at a local indoor range here in Ohio for shooting a paper, silhouette, target that was taped to a cardboard backing (middle of the cardboard) from 25 feet away with my .223 carbine. I was shooting from a standing position into the COM of the silhouette target when I was told that I was not allowed to shoot a high powered rifle at a target, unless the target was towards the bottom of the cardboard and was at the end of the range 25 yards away. There was no such rule listed on the wall among the other range rules at the facility or on their website.
The range has basic use rules (distance) that apply to centerfire rifles but doesn't post such rules? Doesn't make sense to me. Can't expect compliance with unwritten rules that range goers would not otherwise consider.
What you're describing would be uniquely poor range management. My guess is that there's more to the story.
Cheers
The range has basic use rules (distance) that apply to centerfire rifles but doesn't post such rules? Doesn't make sense to me. Can't expect compliance with unwritten rules that range goers would not otherwise consider.
What you're describing would be uniquely poor range management. My guess is that there's more to the story.
CheersAnd a better ground to air grievances is the range committee.
Not us....
I fail to see what we can do other than brew up a curse or mutter a hex towards whatever range the OP went to.
Yeah..I'm pissing in the water here because I've had enough people come to my range and leave in a huff over silly rules.
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
Did the range reply with:
TL;DR?
Ok, that is seriously funny. Thank you.
It's like any place, organization, etc. Rules seem to grow based on occurrences, good or bad through time. Take it however, may be the first time they saw something that needs to be addressed. Bottom line, it's a private facility and they didn't like something they saw and addressed it. Not to be confused with a law in a legal sense.
ramairthree
01-15-19, 16:46
Both you and the RO seem like you would be a total pain in the ass to deal with.
He could have easily said,
“The last time guys were in here doing that we had floor hits and ceiling hits. So just use the distances and locations as told.”
When you said “I’ll have you know I did multiple shooting courses and when I was a reserve AF SF I deployed and co-located with an ODA and as a matter of fact I just did a course with police officers and...”
He could have replied “Got it dude, you’re both high speed and on the spectrum, just be cool and use the distances and locations instructed even though I know you would never jack it up, it’s just one of the rules.”
The indoor range where I shoot has derps in there all the time that'll post a target right at the top of the carrier, set it at 10 feet, then bang away at it from the bench sending all their rounds into the ceiling rather than the trap. They just obliviously blast away while ceiling material and wood chips and shit rain down behind their target. Idiots. I swear, the average IQ on the range most days hovers around 80.
This shit happens every day, causes real damage, and it's the reason why such rules exist. If you don't want to follow their rules, go somewhere else to shoot. It's that simple. You don't need to write them a letter like some kind of whiny-ass teenager who had her phone taken away.
Shoot at any indoor range and the evidence of the endless stream of fuktards is everywhere.
I look at the walls, the ceiling the floor, just about anywhere and shake my head wondering how anyone could be so utterly stupid.
It is probably a LCD (lowest common denominator) thing. The rso doesn’t know the skill level of each customer but does know that there are a lot holes in the ceiling, hence requiring the target be put further down the range.
They should put up a sign/notice to inform customers of that “rule” / requirement. It would make things easier for them and the customers
This is it. Not to mention people shoot cables and hangers all the time.
Don't go back. Sounds like they hire retards.
It's like any place, organization, etc. Rules seem to grow based on occurrences, good or bad through time. Take it however, may be the first time they saw something that needs to be addressed. Bottom line, it's a private facility and they didn't like something they saw and addressed it. Not to be confused with a law in a legal sense.
Agreed. Who knows what they’ve seen?
I had a range officer approach me about rapid fire. They said no more than three shots rapid fire. They didn’t say per second or anything else. So it’s kind of your best guess what that means. I shot the baer defense drill clean twice then he said something - no worries. I figured if I was shooting a drill controlled enough to shoot it clean it wasn’t too fast (looking back it’s 13 rounds that was a poor decision). But, I dug out some B8’s and made the best of my time afterwards. What cracks me up is they rent MG’s there - it is what it is. They used to rent 249’s there.
Another range visit years ago I saw guys shooting at a targets groin with an AK pattern rifle at close range the bullets we’re hitting the floor and sparking. Maybe that’s why?
I’d just let it go and go to another range.
God Bless,
Brandon
Shoot at any indoor range and the evidence of the endless stream of fuktards is everywhere.
I look at the walls, the ceiling the floor, just about anywhere and shake my head wondering how anyone could be so utterly stupid.
Yep, I had someone who worked at one tell me how many problems they had with people trying to shoot ar's without sights on them. He had a bunch of other horror stories as well. The ceiling tiles though at the ranges say it all. So much damage from where people have shot them.
To be fair the range officers can be pretty stupid as well. I had one talk to me because I wasn't leaving the action open on an open bolt machinegun(m10). I told him I left it forward as it was open bolt and he said it didn't matter it was for safety............ Somehow leaving an open bolt gun in the ready to fire position which also has a well know bad safety design is safer. To be fair one of their range officers asked another time if the m10 was an uzi. The range rents a full auto uzi.....
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.