View Full Version : VA - stripped lowers and pistols vs rifles
So my understanding over the past few years was that you did not need an AR lower that was advertised as a pistol lower, as long as it was annotated as a pistol on the form (4473 I think?). I picked up a stripped lower yesterday, with the intent of building it into a pistol with an SBA3 and was told by the LGS that that was no longer the case, at least in VA. According to them they're marked as "other," meaning they can be built into whatever I want. I have a few questions that I should've asked them but didn't think of at the time and since I hadn't seen this discussion on here, figured I'd ask.
1. Is this only in VA or was this a federal thing?
2. Does this only apply to stripped lowers?
3. Does this have any effect on lowers that were bought before the law changed (doubt it, but figured I'd ask)?
As I understand the other is a federal issue as it's on the fed form. If it was marked as a rifle by the dealer, then it's a rifle unless you SBR it. If it was marked "pistol" then you are stuck with that or SBR. If marked "other" than you first build as a pistol then you can make it a rifle and back to a pistol at whim or SBR it. If marked "other" and you make it a rifle, then you cannot make it a pistol, only option is SBR.
Doesn't make sense but, it's the Gov, right? Some dealers will ask you if it's going to be a pistol or rifle and mark it as such. There's no federal requirement they do that, it's just some who are deathly scared of the ATFE and pigmy ninja's.
With the SBA3, it's easier as you can use a standard RE and either use the "brace" or a stock depending. You can also use the SBA3 RE if desired.
So for clarification on #2, follow the above.
The big one is if selling an AR "pistol" lower, one would need to send it through an FFL if not Face to Face sale. I asked this question and was told by the FFL it's an extreme gray area to put a regular stock on it(without the upper) put it on a min 16" barreled upper, remove and sell as a rifle. Of course the receiving FFL would still need to mark it as "other" so they buyer could make it a pistol again.
Bottom line and after 30 years of LE, the whole NFA thing needs to go or or at least made point of sale, even if paying the 200.
On the 4473, a receiver is required to be identified as "OTHER". Not as a long arm. Not as a pistol. "Other". Some jurisdictions have additional requirements, such as the state of California. However, using California as an example, the additional requirements are noted on documents from the DOJ. Not the 4473.
If a dealer identifies the receiver as anything but "OTHER" they have made a mistake. It does not change what category a receiver falls under.
Wake - in case you need a consensus MistWolf is 100% correct.
Here are the instructions for question 16 from the back of ATF Form 4473:
Question 16. Type of Firearm(s) "Other" refers to frames, receivers and other firearms that are neither handguns nor long guns (rifles or shotguns), such as firearms having a pistol grip that expel a shotgun shell, or National Firearms Act (NFA) firearms, including silencers.
If a frame or receivers can only be made into a long gun (rifle or shotgun) it is still a frame or receiver not a handgun or long gun. However, frames and recivers are still "firearms" by definition, and subject to the same GCA limitations as any other firearms. See Section 921(a)(3)(B). Section 922(b)(1) makes it unlawful for a licensee to sell any firearm other than a shotgun or rifle to any person under the age of 21. Since a frame or receiver for a firearm, to include one that can only be made into a long gun, is a "firearm other than a shotgun or rifle," it cannot be transferred to anyone under the age of 21, nor can these firearms be transferred to anyone who is not a resident of the State where the transfer is to take place. Also, note that multiple sales forms are not required for frames or receivers of any firearms, or pistol grip shotguns, since they are not "pistols or revolvers" under Section 923(g)(3)(A).
If you are buying multiple receivers, it is sometimes necessary to bargain with the FFL holder on transfer price (if you are having it transferred from another FFL), since they only have to complete one Form 4473.
ViniVidivici
01-17-19, 13:51
Indeed, a stripped lower is an "other" according to BATFE, and can therefore be made pistol or rifle.
MistWolf and 26_Inf have it covered.
The distinction that a receiver is marked as an "other" applies to both new stripped and assembled lowers, as neither has yet to be assembled into a long gun. Both are marked as "other" on the 4473 and the Virginia State Police Firearms form.
Yes, this means you can buy a brand new assembled carbine lower from a dealer, then assemble it into a pistol with a pistol brace and short barreled upper, as it has never been assembled or transferred as a long gun, only as a receiver.
Any dealer (or employee of a dealer) who's asking you what you intend to build the lower into is misinformed.
So what's the determining factor then? Whatever it gets built into first?
ViniVidivici
01-17-19, 16:27
There is no "determining factor". You can make it whatever you want, and change it whenever you want.
Huh, I thought even if marked other and you put a "carbine stock" on it it became a rifle? Or is it when you actually snap a minimum 16" barreled upper on it? Once built as a rifle, you can't go to a pistol but if as a pistol first, you could switch it back and forth?
So my understanding over the past few years was that you did not need an AR lower that was advertised as a pistol lower, as long as it was annotated as a pistol on the form (4473 I think?). I picked up a stripped lower yesterday, with the intent of building it into a pistol with an SBA3 and was told by the LGS that that was no longer the case, at least in VA. According to them they're marked as "other," meaning they can be built into whatever I want. I have a few questions that I should've asked them but didn't think of at the time and since I hadn't seen this discussion on here, figured I'd ask.
1. Is this only in VA or was this a federal thing?
Did you fill out 1 or 2 forms? The 4473 and the Virginia Form SP-65. SP-65 has no "Other".
Some dealers, or some people at some dealers will ask you how you want it recorded. I don't think it matters and I think the dealer fills in those spots so you could just say they made a mistake. Pretty sure the Federal "Other" overrides the VA form.
But that's why you are hearing the confusing dialog in VA... most likely. I can't find SP-65 on the State Police site any longer. So apparently they have changed that in the last ... maybe 18 months. Can't remember the last time I bought something. But even in VA, a lower has always been an "other". There was just no "other" on the SP-65
But yeah, I've had dealers ask me how I wanted it reported on the SP-65. That's why you are getting what sounds kinda like two stories from the dealer.
So what's the determining factor then? Whatever it gets built into first?
How will anyone ever know what you build it into? Even the Feds say it's one thing with the upper on and another with a different upper and yet another thing with no upper.
Did you fill out 1 or 2 forms? The 4473 and the Virginia Form SP-65. SP-65 has no "Other".
As of the July 2016 revision, the SP-65 does have the option of "Other." Prior to that it did not.
VPS also has the option of "other" on the VCheck website now, though (not surprisingly) it took them a while longer to update the website after they released the updated form.
Ok, so it's still in use but revised. I couldn't find on the VSP site. Looked through all the firearms docs, tried to search, nothing but the 2012 revision. I remember the girl at Greentop asking me the last time I bought a lower but that's been a few years now.
I filled out two forms, but never put any info in about the lower itself. I didn't even talk to them about it, prior to picking up I sent an email stating that it would be a pistol and this is what I got in response: In Virginia now when you pick one up it is marked as “other” so you can build it into whatever you would like. It seems like the atf has changed their minds about this a few times over the past couple of years.
I don't think anyone is changing their minds. The old VA form used to read... Handgun , Long Gun , Both --- those were the only choices.
A friend of mine has a carbine that accepts a Glock lower frame. Everything but the slide. So it's a rifle when it's put together. Take it apart and put the slide back on and it's a pistol. Same thing. The only thing that is registered as a firearm is that lower frame of the Glock.
http://mechtechsys.com/glock-carbine-conversion/
Is this what you are talking about?
Can I lawfully make a rifle into a pistol without registering that firearm?
No. A firearm that was originally a rifle would be classified as a “weapon made from a rifle” if ; it has either a barrel less than 16 inches in length or an overall length of less than 26 inches. If an individual wishes to make an NFA firearm, s/he must first submit ATF Form 1, Application to Make and Register a Firearm, pay a $200.00 making tax, and receive approval of the application from ATF before converting the firearm.
Your firearm was never "originally a rifle". It is a firearm none the less. So basically if you are concerned, put your barrel on, put the brace on, call it a pistol, then go back and forth all you want. That way it went from a "thing" to a "pistol" to a "rifle", back to a "thing" back to a "pistol"..... but in all that it was never "originally a rifle"
This is nothing new and has been discussed here dozens of times. A lower receiver is an "other" and that is how it should be on the 4473 with very few exceptions.
So my understanding over the past few years was that you did not need an AR lower that was advertised as a pistol lower, as long as it was annotated as a pistol on the form (4473 I think?). I picked up a stripped lower yesterday, with the intent of building it into a pistol with an SBA3 and was told by the LGS that that was no longer the case, at least in VA. According to them they're marked as "other," meaning they can be built into whatever I want. I have a few questions that I should've asked them but didn't think of at the time and since I hadn't seen this discussion on here, figured I'd ask.
1. Is this only in VA or was this a federal thing?
2. Does this only apply to stripped lowers?
3. Does this have any effect on lowers that were bought before the law changed (doubt it, but figured I'd ask)?
MountainRaven
01-17-19, 23:31
Huh, I thought even if marked other and you put a "carbine stock" on it it became a rifle? Or is it when you actually snap a minimum 16" barreled upper on it? Once built as a rifle, you can't go to a pistol but if as a pistol first, you could switch it back and forth?
It only becomes a rifle if you have a complete functioning firearm with a stock on it.
Until it is a complete, functioning firearm, it is just a collection of parts.
If you complete it as a pistol first, then you have the option to go to a rifle and back to a pistol.
Why? Because ATF, that's why.
Question- if a dealer is parting off guns and sells a stripped lower from a factory rifle to you, is it transferred as an “other”?
Does "other" still apply if you buy a lower with a stock already attached?
See #16 above.
Does "other" still apply if you buy a lower with a stock already attached?
Makes sense, thank you. Yeah so the complete gun.
It only becomes a rifle if you have a complete functioning firearm with a stock on it.
Until it is a complete, functioning firearm, it is just a collection of parts.
If you complete it as a pistol first, then you have the option to go to a rifle and back to a pistol.
Why? Because ATF, that's why.
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