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View Full Version : The Ayoob files: An urban gunfighter - The lessons of Lance Thomas



SteyrAUG
01-19-19, 01:40
The 51-year-old store owner has earned a reputation as one of the city's best-known dealers in vintage timepieces, as well as expensive Rolex watches that police say are magnets for thieves. He is also known as a sure shot; a merchant once described Thomas as "the fastest gun alive."

Over a period of less than 3 years, Thomas was involved in four gun battles against a total of 11 known suspects. He shot six of them, killing five. The watch dealer himself was wounded on two of these occasions, taking a total of five rounds. There are many lessons that the rest of us can learn Lessons of long-term strategy and short-term tactics; of gun selection and ammunition effectiveness; and, above all, of courage under fire in the moment, and of determination over the long haul.

* * *

August 10, 1989. Like so many storekeepers, Thomas feels his watch shop would be a safer place if he had a gun with which to fend off armed robbers. He has acquired a Model 56, a five-shot Smith & Wesson .38 Chief Special. He keeps the snubnose revolver where he can reach it easily. On this day, he’ll be glad he did.

Two men enter. One appears to have some sort of weapon, and the other pulls what Thomas recognizes as a 9rnm semiautomatic pistol. Thomas knows he can just give the man his money and goods, but he also knows that to do so is to trust his life to the whim of a violent man unlawfully wielding a deadly weapon. Instead, Thomas chooses to fight.

His hand flashes to the Chief Special, and he comes up shooting. The little revolver barks three times. Two of his bullets miss, but one smashes into the gunman’s face, putting him out of the fight.

The merchant swings toward the accomplice, but cannot see a weapon at the moment, and so, does not fire. Instead, he orders the suspect to leave. The now-compliant accomplice does so, dragging his wounded comrade with him.

The robber will survive. Lance Thomas is unhurt. His decision to be an armed citizen, to fight back, has been validated. The wounded robber will be charged, and the armed citizen has the sympathy of the authorities. Thomas has won in every respect.

In assessing the aftermath, the Rolex specialist analyzes what he has learned with the same precision he applies to the repair and adjustment of fine watches. It is not lost on him that he has expended 60 percent of his ammunition to neutralize 50 percent of his antagonists. It occurs to him that a single five-shot revolver might not be enough if there’s a next time, and that there won’t be much opportunity to reload.


And what if he had been caught out of reach of his Smith? Thomas expands his defensive strategy. The .38 is joined by a trio of .357 Magnum revolvers a Colt Python, a Smith & Wesson Model 19 Combat Magnum, and a Ruger Security-Six. He arrays them a few feet apart within the small perimeter of his work-space so there will always be one within reach no matter where he’s standing.

If he runs dry, he won’t even think about reloading he’ll simply drop the empty gun and grab another fully loaded one.

Professional Hit

November 27, 1989. This time, it’s the kind of professional hit that the NYPD Stakeout Squad warned you about - a five-man team of thugs who know what they’re doing. There’s seeded backup, a perpetrator ambling around on the side-walk outside, pretending to be a passer-by. The outrider is in the driver’s seat of the getaway car, at once a wheelman and a potential killer who can murderously interdict responding officers, or go inside with heavy weapons to rescue accomplices who are captured inside the premises. The remaining three perpetrators comprise the raid team.

It opens hot, fast and ugly. One of the perpetrators opens up on Lance Thomas without warning, firing a semiautomatic pistol, hitting him four times with eight rounds fired. Three of the .25 ACP bullets bite into Thomas’ right shoulder, a fourth into his neck. The watchmaker grabs the nearest revolver, the Ruger .357, missing with the first shot but scoring with the next five.

The gunman falls to the floor and so does the Security-Six it has clicked empty. Thomas drops it, lunging for the next nearest weapon, the snubnose .38 that had saved him last time.

Now he engages the second suspect, who is shooting at him. Thomas shoots back. That gun, too, runs dry. He hasn’t hit his antagonist, but he hasn’t been hit either, and the second robber is in no mood to continue the gunfight.

The third inside suspect opens fire at Thomas. Wounded, but furious and still in the fight, the storekeeper grabs his third gun of the shootout, another .357. As Paul Kirchner relates it, he “empties it into” the third gunman. That offender goes down.


The little watch shop is filled with the stench of smokeless powder and the reek of blood. The second offender wants no more of being shot at, and has abjured from the conflict.

Outside, the two additional robbers realize that three of their colleagues have gone inside for an easy score, there has been a long volley of explosive gunfire, and only one has come back out alive. Whatever is in there, they don’t want any part of it. The three surviving robbers flee.

Inside, only one of the combatants is standing. Bleeding but defiant, the wounded Lance Thomas looks down at the two men he has killed. In the course of the fight, he has fired 19 shots.

Some people are beginning to think that Thomas bears a charmed life. Since an enemy sent into ignominious retreat can certainly be said to have been vanquished, the score now stands at Lance Thomas 7, Armed Robbers 0.

However, it occurs to the storekeeper that his survival armory might need another firepower upgrade. This time, he decides to try semiautomatic pistols. He buys four, all SIGs, that operate the same way. One is the compact nine-shot P-225 9mm. The other three are assorted versions of the P-220 8-shot .45 auto.

As the cameras pan across his gun collection, we see the American-style of SIG with push-button magazine release as well as the European-style with the butt heel mag release. There is a Browning BDA, which is a European P-220 by a different name.

Magazine release styles don’t matter. Lance Thomas still doesn’t plan to reload. If one gun runs dry, he’ll reach for another. He now has up to eight hand-guns readily available. Fully loaded, they hold 56 rounds between them.

With his plan, they all function essentially the same grab gun, index weapon in target, pull trigger until it stops shooting, grab additional guns, repeat as necessary. Thomas commits himself to constant practice in accessing one or another of his defense guns from any conceivable position.

December 4, 1991. It has been more than two years since the last incident. Some others would be complacent by now. Not Lance Thomas, who has learned that vigilance equals survival, and from the beginning has realized he is responsible for the safety of his customers.

On this date a male perpetrator strides in, accompanied by a female accomplice who shows no weapon. The man pulls a loaded Glock pistol. He points the gun at Thomas and orders him to be motionless.

No way. Thomas goes for his gun.

The perpetrator fires first, pumping a 9mm bullet through Thomas’ neck, drilling a wound channel that is just a fraction of an inch from being fatal. But now, Thomas has reached his nearest pistol, the little P-225, and he is firing back.

The watch shop proprietor has been forced into an awkward hold on the gun, and he can only fire three rounds all straight into the chest of his opponent before his imperfect grasp causes the usually reliable SIG 9mm to jam. Without missing a beat, he drops it and grabs one of its big brothers, which he fires into the opponent five more times until the armed robber falls and stops trying to commit murder.

Frozen in terror, the female accomplice offers no violence. It’s over.

Wounded, Lance Thomas will recover. Not so the criminal who shot him, who will die of the eight rounds all hits, eight for eight that the armed citizen has inflicted with his two SIG-Sauer pistols.

February 20, 1992. It has been just over two and a half months since the last shootout. Lance Thomas has remained vigilant. Now, his wariness pays off.

Two armed perpetrators enter the store. As soon as Thomas sees the automatic pistol in one of their hands, he reflexes to his nearest pistol, one of the P-220s. This perpetrator goes down fast, hit with what author Kirchner describes as most of a “gunload” of .45 ACP ammunition.

Grabbing another P-220, Thomas engages the second armed robbery suspect and shoots him four times. The suspect falls. The danger is over.

Both armed robbers are dead at the shopowner’s hands. In four gun battles, Lance Thomas has fired 40-plus shots. He has killed five men, and wounded another. He has defeated a total of 11 perpetrators, either shot down or driven off in abject flight. He has been wounded five times.

By now the word was out on the street. Some of those who had died by the blazing Thomas guns had been members of the organized street gangs that infest Los Angeles like an advanced, spreading cancer. They had declared war. They were going to rake Lance Thomas’ watch shop with drive-by shootings and massacre his customers for revenge.

The armed citizen had to make a difficult decision. Thomas had stood up to the armed criminals for some 29 months. He was ready to continue to risk his own life, however, he felt he had no right to risk the lives of customers and bystanders in the face of this latest threat. Reluctantly, sadly, he switched to business by mail order and Internet. The watch shop was closed. The big Rolex sign that some believed had attracted the robbers like flies came down. Lance Thomas moved.

The epoch of a modern urban gun-fighter had ended.

Ayoob’s Analysis

There were those who said that Lance Thomas was a vigilante, something out of the Death Wish movies. Nothing could be further from the truth. Thomas never went looking for men to harm. The harm came to him, and he warded it off.

None of the predators he shot had been hunted down and self-righteously executed. Each and every one of them had died from a sudden and acute failure of the victim selection process. This is why each and every one of the deaths Thomas inflicted was ruled a justifiable homicide.

“It is not unusual for critics of the American scene to deplore what they hold to be an uncivilized toleration of personal violence in our society,” Jeff Cooper once wrote. “Violent crime is not so much the issue, but rather the use of violence by socially acceptable persons in self-defense, in the righting of wrongs, and in meeting challenging situations. Such critics feel that Americans are too ready to ignore the police and handle their emergencies personally; and that, further, this barbarous attitude is encouraged, rather than inhibited, by our tradition.”

Some thought Lance Thomas a dangerous man. I spoke at length with one of the producers of the Turning Point episode that featured the fighting watchmaker. He was appalled that Thomas had said that one reason he had survived these nearly unsurvivable experiences was that he had been “ready to die.”

I explained that the producer had misunderstood the point. “Ready to die” didn’t mean wanting to die in the suicidal-curn-homicidal sense; it meant prepared to die if necessary. There are some things worth dying for. Freedom, including the right to make your living doing your chosen work. Protection of others from violence.

There were times when innocent friends and customers were in the store when the attackers came in with guns in their hands and their fingers on the triggers.

There were doubtless gang-bangers in Los Angeles who thought they had won, having driven off the man they feared. If so, they were deluding themselves. Lance Thomas had stood against 11 of them and won, 11 to nothing. Each time he had been against multiple intruders, never less than two-to-one odds and as high as five-to-one. He came back each time, resolute and defiant.

He left only when the threats to himself extended and went past him, reaching out to innocent customers and bystanders whom he could not protect out on the sidewalk if the promised drive-by shootings had come to pass. The same man who risked his life to stand up for his rights and to protect others, chose to give up the shop he had created, the shop he loved, for the sake of the safety of strangers.

Lance Thomas was a better and more moral man than any of the street gang cowards who hated him, a better and more moral man than any of the commentators who criticized him from the safety of their office desks.

Tactical Lessons

Some observers in the gun world thought Thomas would have been better served to carry his hardware on his person instead of stashing the guns in strategic locations in the shop. The theory is that when the gun is on your person, it is always where you can reach it, and also simultaneously secured from unauthorized personnel.

The criticism has some validity In his third gunfight, if Thomas could have quick-drawn from his hip instead of having to stretch and reach for his SIG, he might not have taken that first gunshot to the neck, which came so close to killing him.

We each bring our own preferences and habits to these topics. This writer prefers to keep the gun on his person, and has done so since growing up in a jewelry store much like the one in this case. Yet Lance Thomas’ story hits close to home, because my father used the same strategy of keeping his handguns seeded at various places in the store, plus a shotgun in the back room.

There are times when seated behind a watch repair bench, for example when it might be faster and easier to reach for a holster nailed to the side of the bench than to draw from one’s belt.

For the most part, the strategy worked for Thomas. It worked better the more guns he had. Toward the end, according to the Turning Point people, he had a gun about every three feet. His workplace was fairly compact. The larger the workspace, the more room there is for the good guy to move, the more sense it makes for the gun to be on the shopkeeper’s person instead of in a fixed location.

Practice is critical. Turning Point filmed Thomas at a shooting range, firing rapidly from a Weaver stance. Kirchner notes that he constantly practiced quick-draw of his guns from their resting places. There can be no doubt that both of these practices helped Lance Thomas survive his gunfights.

Firepower was a factor in all but the first, three-shot incident. The next three averaged more than a dozen shots by Thomas per incident. Add in the first shooting, and it still comes out to at least 10 shots per gunfight fired by the defender, 19 shots in one incident. Once the scope of the predictable threat became evident to him, Thomas was wise indeed to upgrade his firepower from the five-shot, snubnose revolver he started with.

Some critics usually ensconced safely in armchairs opine that five shots should be enough for five perpetrators. Well, well. One of Thomas antagonists apparently thought that four shots would be enough for one Rolex dealer he shot Thomas four times. Thomas sucked up the four gunshot wounds and then proceeded to kill the man who shot him.

Others might suggest, “He just didn't use the right ammo.” Really? Unimpressed with the effects of conventional .38 Special ammo in his first shooting, he went to the Glaser Safety Slug, and was under whelmed with its performance the next time, out in the real world. He shot men multiple times with 9mm and .45 automatics and with .357 Magnum revolvers and had to shoot them again and again.

Sometimes, against dangerous men in the heat of battle, nothing less than multiple serious gunshot wounds will short-out the attack. If we learn nothing else from Lance Thomas’ four gunfights, we cannot miss learning this.

Will. The predators had strong motivations greed, perhaps anger, certainly lust for power over others. When fought back against by surprise, some exhibited great will to live, as evidenced by the fact that it took so many of the good guy’s bullets to put them down.

But one reason Lance Thomas prevailed against them was that his will to survive, to prevail, to stand up for the right thing was greater than their will to harm him. Outnumbered, drawing against drawn guns, sometimes wounded seriously at the opening of the encounters, Thomas never lost his indomitable will to survive, to fight, to prevail. This, in the last analysis, may be the most important lesson each of us can draw from his experiences.

Again, a quote from Col. Cooper. “It is very difficult for a normal man to realize that he is suddenly in danger of death. The time it takes him to realize this and act upon it may be too long to save his life. Thus the prime quality of the gun-fighter more important than either marksmanship or manual speed is the instant readiness to react to a threat.” Amen. The subject of this article had this trait. It obviously kept him alive.

Final Thoughts

This is one of the very few “Ayoob Files” installments I have written without debriefing the survivor. I tried more than once to reach Thomas, and was unable to make contact. Given the many death threats and the unwelcome press attention, Thomas guards his privacy. It wasn't that he was hiding in terror from his antagonists. It was more that he took no pleasure in being lionized for his acts, and simply wanted to live his own life, quietly and peacefully.

It was all he had ever wanted when the men he had to kill in self-defense forced their way into his life. In the end, I had to respect his obvious wishes, and I abandoned the search.

hotrodder636
01-19-19, 04:35
Good story, good lessons shared. Really backs up the idea of in-gun capacity and spare ammo/magazines/spare gun. Thank you for sharing.

flenna
01-19-19, 04:57
I know people hate on Masaad Ayoob nowadays but he does write some good stuff. He had a big influence on me years ago and rightly so. His studies and writings of modern gunfights are valuable bits of information for those interested in SD.

TXBK
01-19-19, 09:09
Good story, and lesson. Thanks for sharing.

prdubi
01-19-19, 10:30
Lance Thomas is a family friend of my uncle Jim Kirkwood in Los Angeles.
My uncle was in his shop each time cleaning up the mess and blood.

I've met him several times over the years and he's a nice guy but we had a falling out when my uncle had to liquidate his Rolex collection because of his health.


He was suffering from dementia and my aunt told me he lowballed him and took advantage of his mental state.

I inherited one Rolex from him, a late 70s submariner but the rest Lance got it for near pennies.

The receipt and paperwork was something like 15 Rolex for 5k usd.
All Rolex were in good working condition.
And it had paper works and their current price with perfect paperwork.

Plan was to sell it on Ebay but he didn't have the time.

It was a god damn rape in my opinion.

Lance wanted his SW collection badly but I inherited that only got his model 29 and model 629.

He's a good guy but kinda pushy, edgy, very tight and security conscience.

Good family friends for 40 to 50 years...but because of the estate and who got what...
He wasn't happy.

He got nearly 80k worth of Rolex for 5k..drives a nice luxury car...
We ended up losing the house because it turns out my uncle was delaying the property tax for years as it was his right while living in Silver Lake area of Los Angeles
Bsck taxes was nearly 200k and so it was sold with a loss.

My uncle was a good man....very loyal to Lance...just in the end of his life..he took advantage of him.

He did good shootings but in the end...its all survival of the fittest.



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FromMyColdDeadHand
01-19-19, 10:32
‘Maybe it was one guy, with six guns...’


https://youtu.be/pIDbZ64yCTg

prdubi
01-19-19, 11:10
Ayoob is wrong..


He had quite a few pistols laying around the shop..

1st time in my life I've seen body parts on the wall and shop.


Another thing I remember doing was hunting down black talons for Lance when I was living there in LA.
Gave me 300 bucks to get some black talons if you can find some.

I was young and excited ....felt like a soldier on a mission.

I found it at the Great Western gun show...

You guys remember it being expensive?

Yesh it was expensive alright.



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26 Inf
01-19-19, 13:00
I know people hate on Masaad Ayoob nowadays but he does write some good stuff. He had a big influence on me years ago and rightly so. His studies and writings of modern gunfights are valuable bits of information for those interested in SD.

Every BTDT guy that I've spoken to who knows Ayoob doesn't have much good to say about the man.

Despite that, he is a prolific writer, I call him the Louis L'Amour of gun writing, sometimes he overdoes the drama.

Research, having the 'in' that a published name gives, all combine to make him a pretty reliable resource.

LMT Shooter
01-19-19, 15:16
https://youtu.be/pkWgp2abM2w

At about 3:08, theres audio of his 911 call, while still shooting it out with the scumbags, and he sounds really calm.

SteyrAUG
01-19-19, 16:23
I know people hate on Masaad Ayoob nowadays but he does write some good stuff. He had a big influence on me years ago and rightly so. His studies and writings of modern gunfights are valuable bits of information for those interested in SD.

Why does anyone hate Ayoob? I knew of him back in the 70s when he was a writer for Black Belt and I attended LFI more than once. Besides Cooper and Weaver, he was one of the most important proponents of personal self defense.

Given all the Yeagertards out there and shenanigans of Suarez, people like Ayoob should be seen as a minor deity.

SteyrAUG
01-19-19, 16:27
Ayoob is wrong..


He had quite a few pistols laying around the shop..



Are you disputing the time line? Ayoob mentioned several revolvers and then several SIGs.

prdubi
01-19-19, 16:33
I'm disputing that he had ALOT....

Define alot.


Alt....


Last time at his shop before his home..

At least 12 or 13 laying around....

AYOOB is spot on with everything else..


I was a huge fan of his...until he took advantage of my uncle.

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prdubi
01-19-19, 16:38
Ayoob is good people......he is solid and knows his stuff...

But from my experience at Crimson Trace, he's a little touchy felt with the ladies.



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Wildcat
01-19-19, 17:41
Tactical Lessons

Some observers in the gun world thought Thomas would have been better served to carry his hardware on his person instead of stashing the guns in strategic locations in the shop. The theory is that when the gun is on your person, it is always where you can reach it, and also simultaneously secured from unauthorized personnel.

The criticism has some validity In his third gunfight, if Thomas could have quick-drawn from his hip instead of having to stretch and reach for his SIG, he might not have taken that first gunshot to the neck, which came so close to killing him.

We each bring our own preferences and habits to these topics. This writer prefers to keep the gun on his person, and has done so since growing up in a jewelry store much like the one in this case. Yet Lance Thomas’ story hits close to home, because my father used the same strategy of keeping his handguns seeded at various places in the store, plus a shotgun in the back room.

There are times when seated behind a watch repair bench, for example when it might be faster and easier to reach for a holster nailed to the side of the bench than to draw from one’s belt.

For the most part, the strategy worked for Thomas. It worked better the more guns he had. Toward the end, according to the Turning Point people, he had a gun about every three feet. His workplace was fairly compact. The larger the workspace, the more room there is for the good guy to move, the more sense it makes for the gun to be on the shopkeeper’s person instead of in a fixed location.



There seems to be support for both strategies.

Keeping a gun on you has the obvious practicality of always being within reach and secure from the unauthorized.

Having to reach for a cached pistol that is close by may have the result of forcing you to move off the line of attack once you choose to act. If you are a target trying not to be hit, movement is often beneficial.

Supplementing the gun being carried with cached guns provides more ammunition (that doesn't have to be carried all the time) and a near-immediate back-up when one gun is disabled (fails, jams or or empties)...and there's that movement thing.
Wasn't there a thread here recently looking for accounts of when a reload was a vital part of a citizen response to being shot at? Lance Thomas has several examples of it potentially being the difference between winning and dying. He chose to use the New-York-reload over a magazine change but it seems to qualify.

HMM
01-19-19, 18:04
I believe after the second attempt I would have found a new business. Good on him for not being ran out but I'd take the hint that I was in the wrong line of work or at least the wrong location.

And I like having a few around the house too, that way if I'm not carrying on my person then I'm not that far off from one.

prdubi
01-19-19, 18:04
Lance Thomas issue during those times was basically the background check and also they took his guns after shootings .

I was with my uncle one time and we went shooting at Angeles.

It's funny SteyrAug chimed in but I was shooting my dads AUG and it was Cali RAW properly and he commented that I bet Lance would love that.

End of the day ..he is one of the most fascinating people I have ever met and known.

The circle of people he knew was vast that had their watches and stuff serviced by him.
My favorite incident was he went ballistic on some reseller who supposively had some Rolex, Omega and other parts.

Turns out the parts were fake possibly Chinese...

Ahhh man he went ballistic on the guy delaying several customers having their Rolex repaired.

One time he had a Laker player come in who needed his watch repaired...turns out the entire watch was loaded with fake parts as he used to take it to another watch repair shop in Studio City. He took care of that guy easily..I asked him..why didn't you have his picture or something....

Why? To prove to people I'm not a racist?

At that time...remember the media portrayal of him was pretty bad....

He just didn't care....

At one time...a friend of his told him he could legally do an SBS or AOW in California...and he knows a gun shop in Glendale who can do it. He kinda brushed it off as too much paperwork.

Interesting guy....



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Business_Casual
01-19-19, 18:17
Interesting caliber choices - the more gun fights the more high-capacity duty calibers...

SteyrAUG
01-19-19, 19:07
I'm disputing that he had ALOT....

Define alot.


Alt....


Last time at his shop before his home..

At least 12 or 13 laying around....

AYOOB is spot on with everything else..


I was a huge fan of his...until he took advantage of my uncle.

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Seems Ayoob didn't personally interview him and had to rely on source material. I first learned about Thomas in a documentary called "America Under the Gun" and he talked about having a firearm within two feet of wherever he was in the store. I don't think Ayoob intended to suggest otherwise, only noting that things began with less.

Given that Thomas seemed to not be interested in reloading that would suggest LOTS of firearms.

SteyrAUG
01-19-19, 19:13
I believe after the second attempt I would have found a new business. Good on him for not being ran out but I'd take the hint that I was in the wrong line of work or at least the wrong location.

And I like having a few around the house too, that way if I'm not carrying on my person then I'm not that far off from one.

Some folks are wired different. When you work your ass off to build something from nothing, that kind of person is less willing to surrender any of it. It might not be practical or logical, but sometimes it gets really personal and certain types are willing to go "all in" because they already have everything invested.

Some guys will hand over a thousand dollars in a robbery but will fight to the death over "dads watch" or a wedding ring.

SteyrAUG
01-19-19, 19:18
My uncle was a good man....very loyal to Lance...just in the end of his life..he took advantage of him.

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That's disappointing. For someone who is willing to fight and die for things like "right and wrong", it's sad when they demonstrate lack of integrity.

Even if you compartmentalize "this is business" from everything else, friends should be friends.

prdubi
01-19-19, 19:33
Seems Ayoob didn't personally interview him and had to rely on source material. I first learned about Thomas in a documentary called "America Under the Gun" and he talked about having a firearm within two feet of wherever he was in the store. I don't think Ayoob intended to suggest otherwise, only noting that things began with less.

Given that Thomas seemed to not be interested in reloading that would suggest LOTS of firearms.



yeah his other biggest problem was the 1 gun a month law in Los Angeles.

The way around that was he would buy one and then my uncle Jimmy would buy another one just like it.

He'd shoot it and sell it to Lance....

You can thank councilman Jaroslavsky for the laws.

Jeff Cooper had a liking to him also...and so did Allerbeck...whatever..that South African trainer at GunSite...

But truthfully, Lance white lied on those tales because of the people he shot and the lawyers after him...and also the politicians that catered to the criminals and gangsters.

End of the day......

All of those guns saved his life....

HMM
01-19-19, 20:53
Some folks are wired different. When you work your ass off to build something from nothing, that kind of person is less willing to surrender any of it. It might not be practical or logical, but sometimes it gets really personal and certain types are willing to go "all in" because they already have everything invested.

Some guys will hand over a thousand dollars in a robbery but will fight to the death over "dads watch" or a wedding ring.

True, I've never ran my own business. I work for a large government corporation so I'd walk for sure. My wife and daughter are what I'd run through hell only armed with a water gun and have the determination to win. And probably my dog, I like him more than most people...lol Everything else is replaceable.

SteyrAUG
01-19-19, 21:37
But truthfully, Lance white lied on those tales because of the people he shot and the lawyers after him...and also the politicians that catered to the criminals and gangsters.

End of the day......

All of those guns saved his life....

Given his AO, I don't blame him for any less than accurate statements. Hard to believe this even happened in CA, of course after the second event they were going after him like "he" was the problem and some kind of vigilante.

Jellybean
01-19-19, 21:41
Interesting caliber choices - the more gun fights the more high-capacity duty calibers...

There's a reason current reality-based thought on caliber choice is "9mm/5.56 and up".

It seems to me you will always- ALWAYS- find small caliber/ sub-caliber promotion and dependence in people whose prevailing mindset is "well, I probably won't need it anyway" or the "you won't need more than 1 or 2 rounds anyway..."

SteyrAUG
01-20-19, 01:59
There's a reason current reality-based thought on caliber choice is "9mm/5.56 and up".

It seems to me you will always- ALWAYS- find small caliber/ sub-caliber promotion and dependence in people whose prevailing mindset is "well, I probably won't need it anyway" or the "you won't need more than 1 or 2 rounds anyway..."

Most people who have never done it or seen it, literally cannot imagine what real life shooting scenarios will be like or what they will require. 1986 FBI Shootout in Miami was probably the one that woke me up. When the report of events was finally released is popped a lot of assumptions and misconceptions.

Prior to that my Ruger Security Six was a common "go to" gun and maybe I'd have one speed loader in my pocket.

NWPilgrim
01-20-19, 17:27
I remember reading about Lance, and the FBI shootout a couple years after each occurred. Those are the examples that got me more serious about switching from my GP100 and SP101 for defense to a 1911, and then mostly Glocks. For a “normal guy” it is highly unlikely I would face multiple attackers, BUT if I ever did it would be dumb to have just 5 rounds when for the same weight I could have had 15. At home I really upped my idea of home defense battery to include multiple Glocks and AR15s. I like owning and shooting a variety but for primary defense I keep to one model that I can practice with most.

Then we had the riots, Katrina and such that make me rethink WML, ammo and mag supplies, family comms, etc. I try to remember that even a simple 18” pump shotgun is light years better than nothing. But if I can afford more and have time to learn more then why not stack the deck more in my favor?

Diamondback
01-20-19, 18:23
It's easy to be a Monday Morning Quarterback, but one wonders... how might Thomas's record have performed if he'd had AR15 pistols with 60-round Magpul drums in the mix?

SteyrAUG
01-20-19, 19:16
It's easy to be a Monday Morning Quarterback, but one wonders... how might Thomas's record have performed if he'd had AR15 pistols with 60-round Magpul drums in the mix?

AR-15 pistols, especially with a drum, would be heavy and ungainly. Thomas didn't even seem interested in shotguns so if he tried to employ a big, clunky AR pistol he'd probably be dead.

He seemed to be aware of options, and having already done it, decided what would probably work best for him.

Personally I'd have staged Benelli M1S90s and a couple AR carbines but that is just me. I personally think Thomas would have been better served with a M1S90, but for whatever reason he seems to have decided it wasn't his best option.

Firefly
01-21-19, 07:01
My main gripe on Ayoob is that he got Seconf Chance to include him as a “save” because he wore a vest during a car wreck.

Weak.

People sometimes think I’m crazy for carrying like three guns but another gun is sometimes better than another magazine. Not like CCW but if things are sporty. Two full sizes and one subcompact of same caliber.

There is truth to the NY reload.

But ripping people off is a chump move.

SteyrAUG
01-21-19, 15:31
My main gripe on Ayoob is that he got Seconf Chance to include him as a “save” because he wore a vest during a car wreck.

Weak.



Not up on what second chance is. You do know he has been a reserve police officer for a long time, probably still is and has been an academy instructor and consultant for decades right?

Not sure exactly what he did, with what kind of vest or why it was wrong.

Firefly
01-21-19, 16:03
Not up on what second chance is. You do know he has been a reserve police officer for a long time, probably still is and has been an academy instructor and consultant for decades right?

Not sure exactly what he did, with what kind of vest or why it was wrong.

Second Chance makes ballistic vests.
People who get listed as a "save" have been victims of gunfire.

Not saying he is wrong on legal matters but just wearing your vest in a wreck is kinda lame.

It's like...okay this may sound kinda dickish but...

you got a hardcore LRRP who was in the 'Nam and lived in the jungle, became a mild warlord, walked trails barefoot and had a well worn and used CAR-15 and he goes to a bar and this other dude says "I was in 'Nam too"

"Oh really? Which parts? I killed and impregnated hundreds near Laos"

"I worked at the staffing corps and taught policy, but I was in 'Nam, maaaan. If it hadnt been for the A/C I would have died."

o_o....
-_-....

Yeah...they have something in common sortbof but not really

Five_Point_Five_Six
01-21-19, 18:10
I envision Mas with a 2005 flip phone calling 411 asking for "Lance Thomas from L.A" and having no luck.

SteyrAUG
01-21-19, 18:54
Second Chance makes ballistic vests.
People who get listed as a "save" have been victims of gunfire.

Not saying he is wrong on legal matters but just wearing your vest in a wreck is kinda lame.

It's like...okay this may sound kinda dickish but...

you got a hardcore LRRP who was in the 'Nam and lived in the jungle, became a mild warlord, walked trails barefoot and had a well worn and used CAR-15 and he goes to a bar and this other dude says "I was in 'Nam too"

"Oh really? Which parts? I killed and impregnated hundreds near Laos"

"I worked at the staffing corps and taught policy, but I was in 'Nam, maaaan. If it hadnt been for the A/C I would have died."

o_o....
-_-....

Yeah...they have something in common sortbof but not really

Ok, so I actually do know what Second Chance is. I lived about a mile from them.

So what was the deal, he was in a car wreck and happened to be wearing a vest? Or did he put one on because it changed the LEO/ EMT response somehow? Not understanding what the issue is related to wearing a ballistic vest, especially as it relates to a traffic accident.

Or is it simply that by wearing a vest during a traffic accident he went on some list maintained by SC as surviving gunfire due to the vest? If it is the latter, yeah pretty lame but also who cares. It makes him look bad and only harms his credibility. I don't think it takes away from his knowledge base but it presents itself as petty.

To me it's like this.

Knows some shit > Still insecure.

Firefly
01-21-19, 19:55
It's the latter.

Second Chance employed him for a time and he used a little skeeviness to be enumerated among legit saves from gunfire. Anybody unaware of his case would assume he took a bullet.

Ayoob, minus color commentary, does err on the side of jurisprudence and does research uses of deadly force.

Fact. Undeniable. No one can take that from him.

but....he still gets his name out anyway he can. He names stuff after himself, latched on with anyone who would get his name out(gun mags, Spyderco, Sabre Defence), and while he isnt a loudmouth or wrong he comes across as a bit holier than thou.

I am agnostic towards him. Don't hate him. Don't love him. He's not wrong but...
some of his stuff like the whole Second Chance spiel makes me a little bleh.

And he speaks towards generalities like gospel. Every locality is different. In this day and age; any shooting that goes to trial is a roll of the dice.

if it goes to trial. If you have it clean enough where a DA says "nolle Prosce" and by statute no civil action can be taken; your legal concerns end there.

If you are going to a GJ....better call Saul.

Diamondback
01-21-19, 21:11
I envision Mas with a 2005 flip phone calling 411 asking for "Lance Thomas from L.A" and having no luck.

Dude, don't knock flip-phones... I miss mine, and my big ol' honkin' Qualcomm brick it replaced. At least THEY, unlike this "smartphone" POS I'm stuck with now, knew their place rather than trying to be smarter than the operator...

SteyrAUG
01-21-19, 22:53
It's the latter.

Second Chance employed him for a time and he used a little skeeviness to be enumerated among legit saves from gunfire. Anybody unaware of his case would assume he took a bullet.

Ayoob, minus color commentary, does err on the side of jurisprudence and does research uses of deadly force.

Fact. Undeniable. No one can take that from him.

but....he still gets his name out anyway he can. He names stuff after himself, latched on with anyone who would get his name out(gun mags, Spyderco, Sabre Defence), and while he isnt a loudmouth or wrong he comes across as a bit holier than thou.

I am agnostic towards him. Don't hate him. Don't love him. He's not wrong but...
some of his stuff like the whole Second Chance spiel makes me a little bleh.

And he speaks towards generalities like gospel. Every locality is different. In this day and age; any shooting that goes to trial is a roll of the dice.

if it goes to trial. If you have it clean enough where a DA says "nolle Prosce" and by statute no civil action can be taken; your legal concerns end there.

If you are going to a GJ....better call Saul.

Ok, so the "saved" thing was kinda gay. Perhaps in his mind he believed he was helping promote the product by being another "official saved" person. If this was religion complete strangers would congratulate him.

As for attaching his name to products, that's sort of how the endorsement game works and it works both ways. Both spokesperson and product are hoping to increase revenue from the association. Ayoob is selling books, training programs and expert legal status. If he's the "firearms expert" at the trial of John Public who had a defensive shooting at the local Subway, it helps that when you google the experts name all kinds of "creds and bonafides" pop up like affiliation with anything law enforcement, legit defensive gear and whatever. You and I know the "saved" qualification was laughable, but a prosecutor might respect it and give the "legal expert" some deference.

But when your name and your opinion are out there, eventually somebody will decide you suck. I can remember people talking about how Cooper was an old fuddy duddy blowhard whose devotion to the 1911 was antiquated and quaint and if he ever took a Frontsight class he'd know to ditch it for a wondernine like a Glock. They didn't seem to understand their entire IDPA and three gun matches were pretty much invented by Cooper with IPSC and modern handgun techniques.

The only thing that generation knew about him was his "random thoughts" in Coopers Corner at the end of Guns and Ammo.

Similarly it's been long enough that nobody remembers what Ayoob did or that fact that he pretty much wrote the CCW bible with "In The Gravest Extreme: The Role of the Firearm in Personal Protection." And when compared to other experts like Gabe Suarez and Sonny Paluska who did some astonishing negligent / criminal things, Ayoob seems like a canonized saint of the Church of Cooper.

Firefly
01-21-19, 23:12
I'm not saying Ayoob hasn't made positive contributions. He really did fill a much needed niche of his era.

I was just citing one minor niggle. In the 80s and 90s, he did forward a lot of CCW positivity and he did promote positive police behavior. Note that I said, he always errs on the side of jurisprudence. That is a good thing.

But when we start talking about Yeager, Suarez, That Red Scorpion wannabe russian dude, and all the youtube people....

well....you can miss me with that.

I do think Cooper would not be impressed with how PC and gamey IPSC has become.

Same even with PPC.
They want it to be 'Precision Pistol Competition'

Negative, Ghostrider

It will always be Police Pistol Combat to me.

SteyrAUG
01-22-19, 01:03
I'm not saying Ayoob hasn't made positive contributions. He really did fill a much needed niche of his era.

I was just citing one minor niggle. In the 80s and 90s, he did forward a lot of CCW positivity and he did promote positive police behavior. Note that I said, he always errs on the side of jurisprudence. That is a good thing.

But when we start talking about Yeager, Suarez, That Red Scorpion wannabe russian dude, and all the youtube people....

well....you can miss me with that.

I do think Cooper would not be impressed with how PC and gamey IPSC has become.

Same even with PPC.
They want it to be 'Precision Pistol Competition'

Negative, Ghostrider

It will always be Police Pistol Combat to me.

If it didn't come across, I was mostly noting we are in agreement and on the same page. I just went into lengthy discourse on how these things usually happen. To me Ayoob, Kokalis, Hackathorn, Weaver and Cooper will always be the firearm gods.

I'm more interested in in Hackathorns ideas regarding practical applications of the S&W combat magnum than I am about the latest write up of the Kriss .45 in SWAT magazine. I was never "all in" on the Cooper "Ranch Rifle" concept and would generally prefer an AR-15 carbine, but I also didn't have a ranch and I knew enough to know even though I felt differently, he still knew more about both weapon systems than I did.

Averageman
01-22-19, 01:46
I had a neighbor who was a retired Cop. He was a great guy, taught me to reload, showed me how to run a trap line, but the coolest thing he ever did was give me a five foot stack of old "Guns and Ammo" magazines.
Reading those magazines and I read every one of them gave me a lot of input from guys like Jeff Cooper and Massad Ayoob. Cooper's writings had a quality and directness that was far different than Ayoob's. Mind you now, all of these magazines were from the early seventies, Cooper seemed more centered on Self defense and Ayoob reported mostly on Police shootings. Cooper was all about the 1911, Ayoob seemed to be a rather early proponent of the hi-cap 9mm's.
Both were a great influence on my selection of handguns, but Cooper was by far my favorite. Ayoob really seemed almost fanatically concerned about the legal aspects and I believe he was a "for hire expert" if you needed someone to back up your self defense shootings legalities.
I think each of them had their time and now the writings of both of them are aged and perhaps not as relevant as the once were. I have books by each of them.

I have to say ironically I was telling someone about this story last weekend, pretty amazing stuff.

Ed L.
01-22-19, 04:30
Why does anyone hate Ayoob? I knew of him back in the 70s when he was a writer for Black Belt and I attended LFI more than once. Besides Cooper and Weaver, he was one of the most important proponents of personal self defense.

Given all the Yeagertards out there and shenanigans of Suarez, people like Ayoob should be seen as a minor deity.

I took two classes with Ayoob--LFI 1 & 2, in the late 1980s. The classes were great and at that time he was cutting edge. He was very engaging and entertaining. Like him or hate him he really was a pioneer in bringing an emphasis to legalities and the legal aftermath to the firearms training world. But there are many teachers who have far surpassed him in terms of teaching shooting skills and imparting street experience.

It is late at night, so I will briefly explain why some people have issues with him.

For the last few years for the lecture portion of his courses dealing with lethal force, Ayoob plays long videos of his lectures. He does a question and answer session after the videos. He tries to sell this as something he does for repeatablity--so that it can be played to a jury that shows exactly what you were taught. He may believe this, but I think it is lazy. If I am paying for a class with a person, I want that person to be presenting the lectures himself as opposed to watching a series of long videos.

Many law enforcement people regard Ayoob as a "hobby cop," someone who was a reserve "lieutenant" in a rural VT department that had less than 10 officers. They think he has greatly puffed up his experience and don't think he can talk authoritatively about policing the way he does. I have encountered many BTDT guys who really dislike him. These are people with police and military experience.

In reading some of his articles from his column in American Handgunner titled The Ayoob files, I notice that he sometimes exaggerates, embellishes, or leaves out key facts that make it more understandable why the person got in legal trouble. I have picked this up from my own knowledge and research. Some of his articles draw conclusions while leaving out important facts. I look at this and it makes me question his credibility in other articles where I don't have access to the information.

Some times he goes overboard on lawyer proofing. At one time, back when revolvers were more commonly carried, he was recommending that people have them modified to fire double-action only. That way if they shot someone in self defense an attorney could not accuse them of cocking the gun and having it accidentally go off. Think about this. In a situation where you are asserting that you shot someone in self defense Ayoob is worried that a lawyer is going to try to claim that your shooting was an accident and not self-defense as you claim.

He bases it on the Alvarez shooting, a situation in the early 1980s where a cop in Miami was holding someone at gunpoint and the person made a move toward a gun that they had concealed and the cop shot them in the head with his revolver. It wound up going to trial. Ayoob wrote articles about this and pointed out that an expert witness for the prosecution tried to claim that the officer had the revolver cocked when it wasn't. The expert witness said something along the lines of, "In my experience revolvers that are cocked go off more easily so I believe that the officer had the revolver cocked which was negligent.

The reason that the other side was trying to establish negligence is because the defendant in this case, Miami Officer Luis Alvarez, initially claimed that the shooting was accidental, which was a key factor in this case which brought into focus questions about what type of modifications Alvarez might have done to his gun, or other factors that could lead to a negligent discharge.

Ayoob has also said some absurd things, or perhaps repeated things he heard without critically considering their plausibility. I have an old tape of his titled, Knife, counterknife, from the 1980s. In it he asserts that the big three or four motorcycle gangs had a joint knife fighting school. Police were unable to infiltrate it because in order to get in you had to be a made member, and committed a major crime in the presence of other members.

Consider this, gangs who will attack members of rival gangs on site have a joint knife-fighting school. Okay, I will give him this one, because at one time I used to believe some stupid things also.

Five_Point_Five_Six
01-22-19, 08:09
I took two classes with Ayoob--LFI 1 & 2, in the late 1980s. The classes were great and at that time he was cutting edge. He was very engaging and entertaining. Like him or hate him he really was a pioneer in bringing an emphasis to legalities and the legal aftermath to the firearms training world. But there are many teachers who have far surpassed him in terms of teaching shooting skills and imparting street experience.

It is late at night, so I will briefly explain why some people have issues with him.

For the last few years for the lecture portion of his courses dealing with lethal force, Ayoob plays long videos of his lectures. He does a question and answer session after the videos. He tries to sell this as something he does for repeatablity--so that it can be played to a jury that shows exactly what you were taught. He may believe this, but I think it is lazy. If I am paying for a class with a person, I want that person to be presenting the lectures himself as opposed to watching a series of long videos.

Many law enforcement people regard Ayoob as a "hobby cop," someone who was a reserve "lieutenant" in a rural VT department that had less than 10 officers. They think he has greatly puffed up his experience and don't think he can talk authoritatively about policing the way he does. I have encountered many BTDT guys who really dislike him. These are people with police and military experience.

In reading some of his articles from his column in American Handgunner titled The Ayoob files, I notice that he sometimes exaggerates, embellishes, or leaves out key facts that make it more understandable why the person got in legal trouble. I have picked this up from my own knowledge and research. Some of his articles draw conclusions while leaving out important facts. I look at this and it makes me question his credibility in other articles where I don't have access to the information.

Some times he goes overboard on lawyer proofing. At one time, back when revolvers were more commonly carried, he was recommending that people have them modified to fire double-action only. That way if they shot someone in self defense an attorney could not accuse them of cocking the gun and having it accidentally go off. Think about this. In a situation where you are asserting that you shot someone in self defense Ayoob is worried that a lawyer is going to try to claim that your shooting was an accident and not self-defense as you claim.

He bases it on the Alvarez shooting, a situation in the early 1980s where a cop in Miami was holding someone at gunpoint and the person made a move toward a gun that they had concealed and the cop shot them in the head with his revolver. It wound up going to trial. Ayoob wrote articles about this and pointed out that an expert witness for the prosecution tried to claim that the officer had the revolver cocked when it wasn't. The expert witness said something along the lines of, "In my experience revolvers that are cocked go off more easily so I believe that the officer had the revolver cocked which was negligent.

The reason that the other side was trying to establish negligence is because the defendant in this case, Miami Officer Luis Alvarez, initially claimed that the shooting was accidental, which was a key factor in this case which brought into focus questions about what type of modifications Alvarez might have done to his gun, or other factors that could lead to a negligent discharge.

Ayoob has also said some absurd things, or perhaps repeated things he heard without critically considering their plausibility. I have an old tape of his titled, Knife, counterknife, from the 1980s. In it he asserts that the big three or four motorcycle gangs had a joint knife fighting school. Police were unable to infiltrate it because in order to get in you had to be a made member, and committed a major crime in the presence of other members.

Consider this, gangs who will attack members of rival gangs on site have a joint knife-fighting school. Okay, I will give him this one, because at one time I used to believe some stupid things also.

This is probably the best post I've read on the matter.

prdubi
01-22-19, 08:29
If you want kicks and giggles.

On my uncles flip flop..Lance was listed as Lance Templeton.



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sundance435
01-22-19, 11:31
This is probably the best post I've read on the matter.

Yeah, the only knock I have against Ayoob is that he propagated the whole concept of taking into account how a prosecutor or plaintiff's attorney MAY characterize certain things - mainly physical characteristics of firearms and anything that could be twisted to demonstrate the shooter/good guy was preparing and looking for an opportunity to shoot. Does it bear consideration? Maybe a little, but the amount of people who still espouse this nonsense as legitimate concerns is incredible. I mean, Punisher grips are gonna look bad, but the mentality he helped create would have you believe that a lot more innocuous stuff is just as problematic.

As far as the Second Chance thing, I thought that they did include people saved in traffic crashes, so that's news to me. If wearing a vest prevented you from being killed by blunt-force trauma, regardless of gun or car, that's still a "save" in my mind. Now, if he used that to further his credibility on firearms-related topics, that's a different story.

prdubi
01-22-19, 11:40
I wouldn't knock the 2nd chance thingy..

We had a CTC trainer whose 2nd chance vest caught a ricochet from a LEO mishandling in the range...

2nd chance squared us away..

LEO had a single point that got caught on something during a transition shot and his main gun went off....hitting the ground and magically hitting our trainer...

End of day....I teach in a HS and I keep my 2md chance in the truck...just in case.

I also got plates for my camelbak.



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thopkins22
01-22-19, 12:54
I wouldn't knock the 2nd chance thingy..

We had a CTC trainer whose 2nd chance vest caught a ricochet from a LEO mishandling in the range...

2nd chance squared us away..

LEO had a single point that got caught on something during a transition shot and his main gun went off....hitting the ground and magically hitting our trainer...

Well I mean, nobody is saying that they don’t work...your instance is a human being saved from a gunshot wound, not a MVA.

What if I put one on and try to jump on a wild horse and get kicked. People can and do die from that. If I live is it validation of body armor? People wear vests in rodeo events too, should 2nd Chance start sponsoring them to get their numbers way up?

Firefly
01-22-19, 14:41
A joint knife fighting school?

What ‘s next? Gunsite for Gangmembers?

“Aight today we be’s doin’ some split drills wit our problem solvers and choppers...knowwutI’msayin’”?

Some of his stuff sounds like the Satanic Panic crowd in the 80s who had people convinced that there were human sacrifices going on at every daycare and cemetery.

SteyrAUG
01-22-19, 15:40
I took two classes with Ayoob--LFI 1 & 2, in the late 1980s. The classes were great and at that time he was cutting edge. He was very engaging and entertaining. Like him or hate him he really was a pioneer in bringing an emphasis to legalities and the legal aftermath to the firearms training world. But there are many teachers who have far surpassed him in terms of teaching shooting skills and imparting street experience.

It is late at night, so I will briefly explain why some people have issues with him.

For the last few years for the lecture portion of his courses dealing with lethal force, Ayoob plays long videos of his lectures. He does a question and answer session after the videos. He tries to sell this as something he does for repeatablity--so that it can be played to a jury that shows exactly what you were taught. He may believe this, but I think it is lazy. If I am paying for a class with a person, I want that person to be presenting the lectures himself as opposed to watching a series of long videos.

Many law enforcement people regard Ayoob as a "hobby cop," someone who was a reserve "lieutenant" in a rural VT department that had less than 10 officers. They think he has greatly puffed up his experience and don't think he can talk authoritatively about policing the way he does. I have encountered many BTDT guys who really dislike him. These are people with police and military experience.

In reading some of his articles from his column in American Handgunner titled The Ayoob files, I notice that he sometimes exaggerates, embellishes, or leaves out key facts that make it more understandable why the person got in legal trouble. I have picked this up from my own knowledge and research. Some of his articles draw conclusions while leaving out important facts. I look at this and it makes me question his credibility in other articles where I don't have access to the information.

Some times he goes overboard on lawyer proofing. At one time, back when revolvers were more commonly carried, he was recommending that people have them modified to fire double-action only. That way if they shot someone in self defense an attorney could not accuse them of cocking the gun and having it accidentally go off. Think about this. In a situation where you are asserting that you shot someone in self defense Ayoob is worried that a lawyer is going to try to claim that your shooting was an accident and not self-defense as you claim.

He bases it on the Alvarez shooting, a situation in the early 1980s where a cop in Miami was holding someone at gunpoint and the person made a move toward a gun that they had concealed and the cop shot them in the head with his revolver. It wound up going to trial. Ayoob wrote articles about this and pointed out that an expert witness for the prosecution tried to claim that the officer had the revolver cocked when it wasn't. The expert witness said something along the lines of, "In my experience revolvers that are cocked go off more easily so I believe that the officer had the revolver cocked which was negligent.

The reason that the other side was trying to establish negligence is because the defendant in this case, Miami Officer Luis Alvarez, initially claimed that the shooting was accidental, which was a key factor in this case which brought into focus questions about what type of modifications Alvarez might have done to his gun, or other factors that could lead to a negligent discharge.

Ayoob has also said some absurd things, or perhaps repeated things he heard without critically considering their plausibility. I have an old tape of his titled, Knife, counterknife, from the 1980s. In it he asserts that the big three or four motorcycle gangs had a joint knife fighting school. Police were unable to infiltrate it because in order to get in you had to be a made member, and committed a major crime in the presence of other members.

Consider this, gangs who will attack members of rival gangs on site have a joint knife-fighting school. Okay, I will give him this one, because at one time I used to believe some stupid things also.

Explains a LOT, as well as some other info that has been provided to me.

prdubi
01-22-19, 16:00
Well I mean, nobody is saying that they don’t work...your instance is a human being saved from a gunshot wound, not a MVA.

What if I put one on and try to jump on a wild horse and get kicked. People can and do die from that. If I live is it validation of body armor? People wear vests in rodeo events too, should 2nd Chance start sponsoring them to get their numbers way up?That's very true....

There are people that wear BA for 3 gun and PR here in Oregon.

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titsonritz
01-22-19, 16:06
My main gripe on Ayoob is that he got Seconf Chance to include him as a “save” because he wore a vest during a car wreck.

Weak.

I thought it was a helicopter.