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I am in the process of building my first AR. I am looking at bolt carrier groups and am having a hard time picking one. I’m looking at Spike’s Tactical, BCM, Ballistic Advantage, Sionics, and a few others. Are any of these any better than the others? Would I notice a difference between them? Are there any that I am missing?
elephantrider
01-22-19, 00:04
Are any of these any better than the others?
Y-E-S-!
Would I notice a difference between them?
Visually, no, not much difference, except the brand laser markings, or in the case of Sionics, IF you choose their NP3 coated BCG, which looks like NP3
Are there any that I am missing?
Yes. There are many quality BCGs on the market, and many more that are either suspect, or just dog poop, IMO. I think most on this forum would agree that you can't go wrong with BCM, Sionics (NP3 coated, or not), Colt, or Centurion Arms. I would ad that you could also look at ALG Defense, or Forward Controls Design (FCD). The specs might vary a little between some of them, or you might pay a little extra for a non "mil-spec" coating on a couple, but they should all be solid. If you want to take a little bit of a chance on a more affordable 'bargain' BCG, then maybe look at Toolcraft, Brownells "M16 BCG", or Stag Arms.
BCM is my go-to BCG.
My iPhone XS Max is better than your android!
MorphCross
01-22-19, 00:09
For a bare minimum bcg that will check every box look at Centurion Arms.
Sionics with their bare minimum basic bcg is another definite great option.
I have quite a few BCGs. I have some that are not too good and quite a few that are very good Here is a list of the ones I like and use.
BCM My favorite BCGs
Daniel Defense Beautiful machining and works well
Colt Works great
LMT Enhanced Sweet BCG for some rifle configurations, more durable than some
snackgunner
01-22-19, 01:58
Go with toolcraft for $70
You can spend as much money as you want buying a BCG. The mil-spec (which folks love around here until it suits them to deviate - as in carrier finishes) for the BCG is:
Bolt: made of Carpenter Technology No. 158 alloy (C-158); should be shot-peened (SP), high-pressure tested (HPT), and magnetic particle inspected (MPI) - if you want to really delve into it you can check to see if the parts are individually tested or batch tested.
Bolt Carrier: automatic carrier made of 8620 alloy; chrome-lined;
Carrier Key: made of 4130 alloy; grade 8 carrier key bolts; properly staked (mil-spec requires(d) perma-tex sealed to carrier - unknown how many do this)
These are the major check-off's that folks list. Most don't list extractor materials, etc. but there are specs for those parts.
Tool-Craft makes a perfectly acceptable product, make sure it is the C-158 bolt though, as they offer them with 9310.
BCM is a manufacturer that goes an extra step for QC: Prior to shipping, all BCM Bolt Carrier Groups are test fired for function. As such, the Bolt Carrier Group will show handling marks consistent with these quality control procedures and they are also a good choice.
Bottom line is, most folks couldn't tell one standard BCG from another if not for the logos.
Shot peening is much more important to bolt life than HPT. Without shot peening to stress relief the material, bolts crack more often.
The downside to HPT is that it reduces the number of over pressure events the bolt can handle before it fails by one.
The Toolcraft BCG are $100 cheaper than BCM's. They might be great but I wonder why they're only $70?
The Toolcraft BCG are $100 cheaper than BCM's. They might be great but I wonder why they're only $70?
You get what you pay for.
My iPhone XS Max is better than your android!
The Toolcraft BCG are $100 cheaper than BCM's. They might be great but I wonder why they're only $70?
Because they don't have BCM lasered on the side.
I’ve read they are good BCG’s and the mil uses them for replacements but I don’t know if it’s true or if the $70 BCG is the same one contracted as the replacement.
This subject has been discussed before and I recommend searching and reading the other threads. Lot's of good info.
Or just buy a phosphate Sionics BCG :)
My 2 cents, and worth $.02...
Andy
Didn’t find any confirmation on the toolcraft BCG being a mil replacement in the search.
The BCG's that I prefer:
1. SOLGW, They have a M4C 10% discount;
2. Sionics, Standard;
3. BCM. I would suggest you buy this BCG via Brownells. They have very good CS and usually have discount codes available.
Cheers, Steve
Don Quijote
01-22-19, 11:58
Tool-Craft makes a perfectly acceptable product, make sure it is the C-158 bolt though, as they offer them with 9310.
AISI 9310 provides the same or better fatigue life and toughness than Carpenter 158 without being a proprietary product that can only be purchased from a sole supplier.
Just because something is in a military specification does not mean there are better products out there for the same exact job.
I'll take my bolts made from 9310 all day and pocket the change.
The Toolcraft BCG are $100 cheaper than BCM's. They might be great but I wonder why they're only $70?
Toolcraft is an OEM supplier. By theory, the quantities produced would result in lower prices.
BCM adds a step to QC in that they test fire the BCG. Hype? Legitimate QC? I don't know, but it adds cost.
By theory, prices are set at the point that goods sold equals economic gain required. If you are a volume seller you set prices lower to attract sales. 1,000 items sold at $2.00 profit gives you the same result as 100 items sold at $20.00 profit.
In order to get folks to pay more for your mass-produced product, made of essentially the same materials, and manufactured using essentially the same processes, you do things like advertise, pay attention to product presentation to the consumer (packaging) and often include stickers, etc. in the package.
Manufacturing costs vary by location, with some considerations including wages paid to workers, transportation costs for raw material, taxes and utilities.
Bottom line is, buy what you feel is the best value as an educated consumer. When I read and consider the comments and advice on this forum I look for possible bias of the advice giver - things like associations with a competing company can unconsciously sway even the most fair-minded person's point of view - and factor those into the equation when consideration.
I think Warren Buffet would buy a Toolcraft and use the savings elsewhere.
Shot peening is much more important to bolt life than HPT. Without shot peening to stress relief the material, bolt crack more often.
The downside to HPT is that it reduces the number of over pressure events the bolt can handle before it fails by one.
There is that consideration - I was talking in terms of the Holy Grail of .mil-spec.
That is one of the reasons I don't shoot 5,000 rounds through my carry/HD firearms to vet them. :jester:
AISI 9310 provides the same or better fatigue life and toughness than Carpenter 158 without being a proprietary product that can only be purchased from a sole supplier.
Just because something is in a military specification does not mean there are better products out there for the same exact job.
I'll take my bolts made from 9310 all day and pocket the change.
As I replied to MistWolf, there is that consideration - I was talking in terms of the Holy Grail of .mil-spec.
9310 has several advantages - it is not a proprietary alloy so it is more readily available in smaller lots. An advantage for the smaller manufacturer. Theory would say that since there are multiple competing manufacturers, price would be more elastic than the price of C-158.
Folks say 9310 can be more durable than C-158, IF properly heat treated.
I’ve read they are good BCG’s and the mil uses them for replacements but I don’t know if it’s true or if the $70 BCG is the same one contracted as the replacement.
The replacement parts used by the .mil are/were marked with Toolcrafts cage code: 1B1B6. This is the bolt carrier only, AFAIK. They are generally available someplace, these guys are currently out of stock:
http://www.wcarmory.com/toolcraft-bcg-223-5-56-bolt-carrier-group-black-1b1b6-c-158-mpi-complete.htm
thopkins22
01-22-19, 12:34
Eventually someone will do what KAC has alluded to being the superior test, and start x-raying bolts for inclusions and other issues instead of making them stand up to a bomb...which is needed for the MPI test to mean much.
I personally think the tests are not nearly as valuable as the material and manufacturing. And with modern metallurgy, I doubt that many bolts if any are actually actually rejected provided they were made correctly out of the correct materials/given the proper treatments.
All of my bolts are tested and so forth, but that’s because the four companies companies I trust to spec the correct materials and shot peening etc, happen to test them individually as well. I’m not sure if anything has changed at Noveske, but I would be perfectly confident with one of their batch tested bolts too.
I don’t personally see much benefit to saving $70 on something as important as a BCG. And while the TDP can be improved in almost every area, I haven’t seen any real and tangible proof that anyone has done so outside of specific use bolts and carriers like LMT and KAC have done for certain configurations.
And wiz-bang coatings never seem to fall in the category of McFarland gas rings for me. Like yeah, it’s great if done well...but you’d be hard pressed to actually miss it and there can be drawbacks.
As has already been stated many brands check all the boxes. Is that because they’re mostly made by an OEM supplier and only ad their brand/logo, QC, and marketing/packaging?
MorphCross
01-22-19, 13:16
Eventually someone will do what KAC has alluded to being the superior test, and start x-raying bolts for inclusions and other issues instead of making them stand up to a bomb...which is needed for the MPI test to mean much.
Cool bit of info if true. I knew that Sionics does Industrial Radiography inspections on their barrels but this is the first I have heard of a company doing the same on a bolt.
If you are building a 5.56 or 300 Blackout you can't go wrong with Ballistic Advantage. I have several and haven't had any issues. On sale now and free shipping.
There other companies that offer real nice dependable BCG's if your building a 9mm, .458 SOCOM or 6.5 Grendel.
https://ballisticadvantage.com/parts-and-accessories/ar15-parts/bolts-bolt-carrier-groups
thopkins22
01-22-19, 13:40
Cool bit of info if true. I knew that Sionics does Industrial Radiography inspections on their barrels but this is the first I have heard of a company doing the same on a bolt.
They don’t do it as far as I know. They have however stated it would be the best method.
I didn’t mean to imply that it’s done...but now I know that Sionics is doing it to barrels which is awesome...it’s an innovative way to try and offer something of a truly no holds barred premium product.
If a PSA, Aero Precision, BCM, Colt,Toolcraft BCG all check the same boxes what’s the difference?
There is that consideration - I was talking in terms of the Holy Grail of .mil-spec.
As we're talking about the Holy Grail of Milspec, shot peening is required.
That is one of the reasons I don't shoot 5,000 rounds through my carry/HD firearms to vet them. :jester:
Yeah, that's a lot of vetting. I vetted my Colts with just a couple of mags.
Don Quijote
01-22-19, 17:04
Radiography on a bolt is extreme overkill and so is HPT. Buying quality alloys with certs traceable to the mill, doing due dilligence in design and finite element analysis, and doing machining that creates repeatable and conforming parts is an order of magnitude more useful and it's putting time and money into value added activities, instead of blowing it on tests to catch shit that could have been prevented.
Quality is created during design and during manufacture. It is not created during inspection.
The statement "HPT is necessary for MPI to mean anything" is false. MPI is a highly valuable inspection technique without stressing parts to near yield.
If it weren't it wouldn't be specified as much as it is by my aerospace customers.
I do this for a living so my frame of reference and my critical scrutiny of marketing hype disguised as technical information is different.
Toolcraft if you want to save money, otherwise I dont think you can beat the Sionics NP3 BCG.
Bravo Sierra
01-22-19, 17:16
If a PSA, Aero Precision, BCM, Colt,Toolcraft BCG all check the same boxes what’s the difference?
Nothing.
Yeah, that's a lot of vetting. I vetted my Colts with just a couple of mags.
Yep, and being as how I'm devoting my efforts to understanding physics, I don't have time! :)
Id be curious to see documented failures of any of the mentioned brands.
I think people hate Spikes because of things the owner has posted on forums and not because its an inferior product.
Toolcraft if you want to save money, otherwise I dont think you can beat the Sionics NP3 BCG.
I agree on the Sionics. Mine is the absolute easiest to clean and shows no sign of wear. Eventually I may upgrade all my BCGs to the Sionics NP3.
thopkins22
01-22-19, 18:03
Id be curious to see documented failures of any of the mentioned brands.
I think people hate Spikes because of things the owner has posted on forums and not because its an inferior product.
Well...I think they’re logo-ification/brand identity of everything kind of kills anything they may or may not do well. On this site you get more folks than average that want to train and shoot professional equipment, either because they are or were professionals, or because they place value on it. Mistakes are made...but that tends to be the genesis of most thought patterns here.
Spike’s seems to like marketing by someone with 6000 Afflicted t-shirts and fake tribal tattoos. It’s a lot to ignore unless that’s your bag.
The Sionics NP3 bolt carrier group would be my #1 pic .
Well...I think they’re logo-ification/brand identity of everything kind of kills anything they may or may not do well. On this site you get more folks than average that want to train and shoot professional equipment, either because they are or were professionals, or because they place value on it. Mistakes are made...but that tends to be the genesis of most thought patterns here.
Spike’s seems to like marketing by someone with 6000 Afflicted t-shirts and fake tribal tattoos. It’s a lot to ignore unless that’s your bag.
Its easy to ignore if your perspective is a range and not their website. I have a training gun that has spikes receivers and a NIB bcg and it runs great. Ive still havent seen failure stats of their stuff versus the others mentioned.
Since this thread is open and current I had a question. I’m currently building a rifle that I think will be a precision build and I’m thinking of using a Young Manufacturing national match BCG. I know there’s debate on whether it will improve accuracy so let’s leave that out of the discussion, my question is this BCG an exceptionally made product aside from any possible accuracy improvements?
Since this thread is open and current I had a question. I’m currently building a rifle that I think will be a precision build and I’m thinking of using a Young Manufacturing national match BCG. I know there’s debate on whether it will improve accuracy so let’s leave that out of the discussion, my question is this BCG an exceptionally made product aside from any possible accuracy improvements?
I think selling BCGs keeps Mr Young so busy that he had to close his side business selling snake oil and shares in the Brooklyn Bridge, so that is a good thing...
Since this thread is open and current I had a question. I’m currently building a rifle that I think will be a precision build and I’m thinking of using a Young Manufacturing national match BCG. I know there’s debate on whether it will improve accuracy so let’s leave that out of the discussion, my question is this BCG an exceptionally made product aside from any possible accuracy improvements?
According to guys competing with ARs in National Match, the YM carrier does nothing to improve precision.
everready73
01-22-19, 19:45
Toolcraft are quality IF you buy from a vetted vendor. I have several of the phosphate and a nitride from cryptic coating which is Toolcraft's retail branch
Toolcraft ONLY makes the carrier and the rest is specd out by the customer. Toolcraft can supply the bolt of choice but some vendors cheap out and get lower quality ones elsewhere. The cheaper vendors also only buy the carrier and source everything else so you have to watch out for mim extractors and if toolcraft actually coated the ones that are not phosphate. They can coat with a few different things..nitride, nickel boron, etc.. but some vendors source that as well and it affects the warranty through Toolcraft
Cryptic coatings is my first choice and they have c158 mpi/hpt bolt and offer nitride and phosphate for $110 and some other much more expensive options like DLC
Right to bear, wc armory, Armorally, spicetack and right to bear are all vendors that have confirmed no mim and all coatings and the bolt come direct from Toolcraft so I would trust any of them (and have). They run from around $70 up for c158 bolts
I think selling BCGs keeps Mr Young so busy that he had to close his side business selling snake oil and shares in the Brooklyn Bridge, so that is a good thing...
According to guys competing with ARs in National Match, the YM carrier does nothing to improve precision.
I bet you guys torture small animals too... no, just kidding, guess a Sionics NP3 is in my future.
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Toolcraft Features:
Mil-spec carpenter No. 158Ⓡ steel (bolt)
8620 tool steel (carrier)
Shot-peened, MPI bolt
Chrome-lined carrier and gas key
Mil-spec extractor spring, black extractor insert & Viton O-ring
Tool steel extractor
Shrouded firing pin
Mil-spec 4130 steel gas key attached with Grade 8 hardware and properly staked
Caliber: .223 / 5.56 / 300 Blackout
BCM Features
Milspec Carpenter No. 158® steel
HPT Bolt (High Pressure Tested/ Proof)
MPI Bolt (Magnetic Particle Inspected)
Shot Peened Bolt
Chrome Lined Carrier (AUTO)
Chrome Lined Gas Key
Gas Key Hardened to USGI Specifications
Grade 8 Hardened Fasteners
Key Staked Per Mil-Spec
Tool Steel Extractor
BCM Extractor Spring
Black Extractor Insert
Mil-Spec Crane O-Ring
I bet you guys torture small animals too... no, just kidding, guess a Sionics NP3 is in my future.
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I have owned neither a Young Manufacturing or a Sionics NP3 BCG, but I believe the Sionics would offer more functionality for the price.
Aero Precision Features:
M16-cut carrier
Machined from 8620 steel
Carrier has forward assist serrations
Mil-Spec phosphate coating
Properly staked gas key
Chrome lined gas key and firing pin channel
5.56 Bolt is machined from Carpenter 158 tool steel
Shot peened
HPT tested/MPI marked
Black o-ring insert on extractor
High quality BCG
PSA Premium Features:
Milspec Carpenter No. 158® steel bolt
Shot Peened Bolt
High pressure tested
Mag particle inspected
Chrome Lined Carrier (AUTO)
Chrome Lined Gas Key
Gas Key Hardened to USGI Specifications
Gas Key Grade 8 Hardened Fasteners
Gas Key Staked Per Mil-Spec
Tool Steel Extractor
Extractor Spring
Extractor O-ring Insert
Aside from the gas key has anyone ever had a carrier fail?
Aside from the aforementioned quality mil spec bolts, has anyone made any real improvements on the bolt other than KAC and LMT?
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Sionics Features
Milspec Carpenter No. 158® Steel
HPT Bolt - High Pressure Tested / Proof
MPI Bolt - Magnetic Particle Inspected
Shot Peened Bolt
Chrome Lined Carrier - Auto
Chrome Lined Gas Key
Gas Key Hardened to USGI Specifications
Grade 8 Hardened Fasteners
Key Staked Per Mil-Spec
Tool Steel Extractor
Sprinco Heavy Duty Extractor Spring
Black Extractor Insert
Machined to USGI Specifications
This is Part 1 of a multiparty series. About all you would ever want to know. Should help with your decision
https://youtu.be/HZkK70Miz60
thopkins22
01-22-19, 22:29
The statement "HPT is necessary for MPI to mean anything" is false. MPI is a highly valuable inspection technique without stressing parts to near yield.
I agree with everything you said except this. MPI is great at catching discontinuities at the surface. It’s terrible for everything not at or near the surface. Is it valuable? Sure...but there is no way to know, since nobody is doing MPI without the proof loads. The hope is that the HPT will expand something to where the magnetic test can catch it.
As I said, quality metal, good design, and proper machining all but eliminate the need for any of this. The Japanese showed us how to do this with automobiles. They designed failure out of parts instead of trying to build a perfect part and catch the ones that won’t work with that design.
In a prior life and career field I had some experiences. A company we all buy gasoline from ordered some BOP’s from a company that rhymes with Jee Flea that were bigger than anything ever built. They ordered three. All were MPI tested and passed their spec, upon destructive testing of one it was learned that they were substandard and not built to the standard that the contract required. New ones were demanded.
Destructive testing tells us a lot that looking at the surface does not.
If you are building a 5.56 or 300 Blackout you can't go wrong with Ballistic Advantage. I have several and haven't had any issues. On sale now and free shipping.
There other companies that offer real nice dependable BCG's if your building a 9mm, .458 SOCOM or 6.5 Grendel.
https://ballisticadvantage.com/parts-and-accessories/ar15-parts/bolts-bolt-carrier-groups
It’s 5.56. I was looking at the BA nitride BCG. It sold out though. The phosphate is $4 cheaper and the DLC is $17 more. I’m not sure if either are any better. Which ones do you have?
The BCG's that I prefer:
1. SOLGW, They have a M4C 10% discount;
2. Sionics, Standard;
3. BCM. I would suggest you buy this BCG via Brownells. They have very good CS and usually have discount codes available.
Cheers, Steve
The SOLGW discount turned out to be only 5%. Primary Arms has it for $10 less. AIM Surplus has the BCM for $10 less than Brownell’s with free shipping. Tough decision.
As usual, lots of incorrect information here. Most of this has been discussed before and is easily located by using the search feature.
As usual, lots of incorrect information here. Most of this has been discussed before and is easily located by using the search feature.
Definitely agree with this statement.
The short version:
158 vs 9310.... 9310 doesn't heat treat very well so it may be stronger in theory but after heat treat, it's a crap shoot.
MPT/HP testing.... Who does the actual testing will define the price of the BCG. BCM is more expensive for a reason.
Quality control and tolerance stacking with the bolt hasn't been touched on either.
Don Quijote
01-23-19, 04:28
I agree with everything you said except this. MPI is great at catching discontinuities at the surface.
And that's because that's what it was designed to find.
If you want to see what's under the surface, either radiography, magnetic resonance, or ultrasonic inspection will work depending on material and part geometry.
Whether that expense is warranted on a particular product is a whole nother discussion.
Definitely agree with this statement.
The short version:
158 vs 9310.... 9310 doesn't heat treat very well so it may be stronger in theory but after heat treat, it's a crap shoot
Really? News to me and Boeing. I've personally heat treated (carburize, austenitize, quench, & temper) and reviewed the metallurgical reports of both core and case hardness and microstructure for close to 1K splined shafts made of 9310 over the years and what you say couldn't be more incorrect.
I'm ready to get into as much detail as I can without violating NDAs I'm subject to.
Quality control and tolerance stacking with the bolt hasn't been touched on either.
Let's do so then. What would you like to discuss regarding the generic term "quality control"? I already laid out the basis of it.
And my favorite subject, tolerance stacking. Please tell us more about that.
Because they don't have BCM lasered on the side.
Cough cough
This
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I think the gun industry thrives on mis information. How does one go about becoming properly educated if they are just an enthusiast/shooter/consumer vs an insider?
For example does Toolcraft make bolts for BCM, PSA, Colt and others? What are differences between them? How does one find out? Is there a $100 worth of difference?
I think the gun industry thrives on mis information. How does one go about becoming properly educated if they are just an enthusiast/shooter/consumer vs an insider?
For example does Toolcraft make bolts for BCM, PSA, Colt and others? What are differences between them? How does one find out? Is there a $100 worth of difference?
Toolcraft does not make bolts for any of those companies. Toolcraft states on their website that they don't make bolts. IG is correct, this has been thoroughly covered in previous threads.
No Toolcraft does not make bolts for them. They don't even make their own bolts unless something has recently changed. Most people aren't going to know unless an industry person reveals some of that information. Most of which has been discussed here numerous times.
I think the gun industry thrives on mis information. How does one go about becoming properly educated if they are just an enthusiast/shooter/consumer vs an insider?
For example does Toolcraft make bolts for BCM, PSA, Colt and others? What are differences between them? How does one find out? Is there a $100 worth of difference?
Don Quijote
01-23-19, 06:11
I think the gun industry thrives on mis information. How does one go about becoming properly educated if they are just an enthusiast/shooter/consumer vs an insider?
For example does Toolcraft make bolts for BCM, PSA, Colt and others? What are differences between them? How does one find out? Is there a $100 worth of difference?
You're absolutely right.
A lot of that misinformation is driven by superficial understanding of technical issues.
To your question about who makes what for whom, that will be difficult to answer with certainty. I work in subcontract built-to-print manufacturing. Not in the gun industry but in an industry where products have many technical (materials and processes) similarities to firearms. I can tell you with absolute certainty that almost every customer of ours flows down (in their purchase order terms and conditions or long term contracts we choose to sign) a clause that prevents us from advertising who we do work for or what that work is; at least without their approval.
I'm going to bet that the firearms industry is no different in that regard.
wetidlerjr
01-23-19, 08:15
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?76465-A-comparative-look-at-BCG-s-Colt-LMT-BCM
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?171133-While-the-going-is-good-best-BCG-bang-for-the-buck
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?194916-Quality-Nitride-BCG
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?199851-Which-BCG
Blasts from the past.
This is why I like BCM. They are widely considered a solid choice. Is there BCG really better than a $70 toolcraft? IDK. I prefer to be as knowledgeable as I can vs being a brand snob that doesn’t know any better or just going along with what everyone else does/says. Part of what it boils down to is where there are big differences in price you just want to understand if there’s also a big difference in quality. No one like to feel like they’re getting suckered. Even when buying quality you want a good deal.
prepare, going back to your post of yesterday listing the various published attributes of the BCG's of different companies, you left these guys out:
Umbrella Corporation, Weapons Research Group:
Umbrella Corporation AR-15 Bolt Carrier Groups are our take on a premium, no snake oil, combat ready BCG. Each and every bolt is proof fired, ultrasonically cleaned, tested via magnetic particle inspection (MPI), and once certified, parkerized for corrosion protection and lube retention. In keeping with a superior product, we don't utilize a Crane O-Ring as a crutch to increase extractor tension. Instead, our bolts are built with a mil-spec black insert coupled with a Tactical Springs 5-coil high load extractor spring that's compatible with all DI gas system lengths. It's rated for 150K+ cycles to outlast your rifle barrel many times over. We have improved on the finish requirement of the TDP and have chosen the best materials of those allowed per spec, not the lowest cost like nearly all of our competitors. This second gen product is manufactured to the highest standards with an unconditional guarantee against material defect and manufacturing failure. We challenge you to compare our Bolt Carrier Group specs against the competition.
Bolt, precision machined from Carpenter Technology No. 158 gun quality aerospace alloy, heat treated per mil-spec (stress relieve, carburize, oil quench, temper, refrigerate, repeat temper), shot peened per ASTM B851/SAE AMS2430S, vibratory tumbled, individual high pressure/proof test fired, individual magnetic particle inspection ASTM E1444/E1444M, ultrasonically cleaned, markings deep laser engraved (SP=Shot Peened/HPT=High Pressure Tested, MPI=Magnetic Particle Inspection/158U=Car Tech 158 alloy type and Umbrella manufacture), manganese phosphate
Extractor, precision machined from 4340 tool steel alloy per SAE AMS6415T/AMS6484D (vs typical 4140; mil-spec allows for either 4140 or 4340), heat treat, shot peen per ASTM B851/SAE AMS2430S, markings deep laser engraved (SP=Shot Peened/4340U=alloy type & Umbrella manufacture), manganese phosphate
Extractor Retaining Pin, precision machined and ground S2 shock resistant tool steel alloy per ASTM A681-08 (vs typical S7; mil-spec allows S1 to S7), heat treated per ASTM A681-08, shot peened per mil-spec print, manganese phosphate
Extractor Spring (premium spring eliminates need for Crane O-Ring), Tactical Springs/Sprinco 5 coil, ASTM Grade A401 Chrome Silicon wire stock, heat treated, stress relieved, Molybdenum-Disulfide infused, cryogenic processed (all post winding), mil-spec black insert/synthetic elastomer extractor buffer (nitrile-butadiene, shore hardness 80+/-5 durometer per MIL-PRF-6855)
Ejector, S2 shock resistant tool steel alloy per ASTM A681-08 (vs typical S7; mil-spec allows S1 to S7), heat treated per ASTM A681-08, shot peened per mil-spec print, manganese phosphate
Ejector Spring, Tactical Springs/Sprinco ASTM Grade A401 Chrome Silicon wire stock, heat treated, stress relieved, Molybdenum-Disulfide infused, cryogenic processed (all post winding)
Gas Rings, mil standard stainless steel X3
Carrier machined from AISI 8620 aircraft qualty alloy per ASTM A108/A322-13, full auto profile, surface finish improved over mil-spec, heat treated (carburized/strain relieved per mil-spec print), hard chrome bore, precision ground gas key interface, Umbrella logo deep laser engraved, manganese phosphate
Gas Key machined from 4130 chromoly steel alloy per ASTM A108/A322-13, heat treated, hard chrome internal, manganese phosphate, Permatex sealed, Grade 8 Torx Plus cap screws torqued and staked all per mil-spec
Cam Pin—precision machined 4340 chromoly steel alloy per SAE AMS6415T/AMS6484D, heat treated/processed per mil-spec, manganese phosphate, solid film lubricant applied and cured per mil-spec
Firing Pin—precision machined 8640 steel alloy, heat treated/processed per mil-spec, hard chrome plate
Firing Pin Retaining Pin—1038 carbon steel, heat treated/processed per mil-spec, manganese phosphate
All components, material, and packaging made in the USA
Now, that is a full disclosure of materials and processes. All for $190.00. To bad they are unobtainium. I've been on the notify list since forever.
Maybe they require a NDA before you can be considered eligible to buy one.
Maybe they require a NDA before you can be considered eligible to buy one.
No they are just so anal that more than half of their stuff never makes it past QC. They also dont put in orders unless they have cash in hand much like Hodge.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?76465-A-comparative-look-at-BCG-s-Colt-LMT-BCM
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?171133-While-the-going-is-good-best-BCG-bang-for-the-buck
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?194916-Quality-Nitride-BCG
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?199851-Which-BCG
Blasts from the past.
All great information, the only thing I would add is that every few years it’s not a bad idea to bring up the question again as technology is always improving.
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Don Quijote
01-23-19, 14:54
No they are just so anal that more than half of their stuff never makes it past QC..
Well then they must suck at it if they have < 50% first pass yield. Is that someone you want to buy from?
LOL at anyone who thinks that's something to be proud of.
Well then they must suck at it if they have < 50% first pass yield. Is that someone you want to buy from?
LOL at anyone who thinks that's something to be proud of.
You don't get how any of this works do you?
vicious_cb
01-23-19, 15:00
Well then they must suck at it if they have < 50% first pass yield. Is that someone you want to buy from?
LOL at anyone who thinks that's something to be proud of.
Im just gonna quote this for future reference when you try to bring up your expertise in manufacturing knowledge. :rolleyes:
Toolcraft if you want to save money, otherwise I dont think you can beat the Sionics NP3 BCG.
Sionics sounds pretty good, a company that takes quality, performance and value into account. Although, I don't like coated bolts.
As lot of people mention Toolcraft. A couple years ago I was curious so I looked into it a bit. Toolcraft (at least at that time) only makes the carrier, which is the least likely part to fail. They even state that they can supply bolts from different vendors if requested. I believe that when Toolcraft complete BCGs are offered for sale retail they may come with more than one bolt type. This fact is sometimes mentioned by the retailer, but they do not mention the bolt manufacturer, and do not go into much more detail about the bolt.
Personally, my budget allows me to buy any grade I want. And I've been mostly buying BCM, although I have been using DD, LMT Enhanced, and Colt. I've tried cheaper too, but my first try with PSA was a disaster, so I don't buy or use the cheap ones except to keep them as back ups to back ups.
As mentioned above. I'm not into coated bolts. Except the two LMT Enhanced BCGs.
Sionics sounds pretty good, a company that takes quality, performance and value into account. Although, I don't like coated bolts.
As lot of people mention Toolcraft. A couple years ago I was curious so I looked into it a bit. Toolcraft (at least at that time) only makes the carrier, which is the least likely part to fail. They even state that they can supply bolts from different vendors if requested. I believe that when Toolcraft complete BCGs are offered for sale retail they may come with more than one bolt type. This fact is sometimes mentioned by the retailer, but they do not mention the bolt manufacturer, and do not go into much more detail about the bolt.
Personally, my budget allows me to buy any grade I want. And I've been mostly buying BCM, although I have been using DD, LMT Enhanced, and Colt. I've tried cheaper too, but my first try with PSA was a disaster, so I don't buy or use the cheap ones except to keep them as back ups to back ups.
As mentioned above. I'm not into coated bolts. Except the two LMT Enhanced BCGs.
Sionics does sell a non coated BCG.
I feel like a metallurgist after reading all of the posts... LOL.
Out comes the popcorn.....
Sionics sounds pretty good, a company that takes quality, performance and value into account. Although, I don't like coated bolts.
As lot of people mention Toolcraft. A couple years ago I was curious so I looked into it a bit. Toolcraft (at least at that time) only makes the carrier, which is the least likely part to fail. They even state that they can supply bolts from different vendors if requested. I believe that when Toolcraft complete BCGs are offered for sale retail they may come with more than one bolt type. This fact is sometimes mentioned by the retailer, but they do not mention the bolt manufacturer, and do not go into much more detail about the bolt.
Personally, my budget allows me to buy any grade I want. And I've been mostly buying BCM, although I have been using DD, LMT Enhanced, and Colt. I've tried cheaper too, but my first try with PSA was a disaster, so I don't buy or use the cheap ones except to keep them as back ups to back ups.
As mentioned above. I'm not into coated bolts. Except the two LMT Enhanced BCGs.
I too am not a fan of coated bolts and carriers. All the experience I have had with nickel boron has been a disaster. That being said the Sionics NP3 is the real deal. For any suppressed shooting I think it's a must. The whole "carbon just wipes off" myth is totally real their BCGs. I have had nasty, suppressed, dirty, +1k rounds of 300 blackout where you have that awesome caked on mix of lube and carbon. Hit it up with a little M-Pro7 and it just cleans right up. Its magical but you pay for it.
The Small Arms Solutions video posted a couple pages back was interesting regarding "Enhanced BCGs", but the only enhanced BCG i would buy (and did buy) for a "GO TO" rifle is the LMT enhanced. It has been though a few generations of improvements and is most improved where it really counts...in the bolt.
Other than that, if you're worried that your BCG won't hold up when it counts, the best way to mitigate common failures is to buy a spare bolt and keep it ready to go in your grip. You just have to hope it doesn't happen at an inconvenient time.
A bolt holder can be purchased for a Magpul MOE grip.
JMHO
Sionics does sell a non coated BCG.
Right, if i were to buy one it would be non-coated.
All great information, the only thing I would add is that every few years it’s not a bad idea to bring up the question again as technology is always improving.
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Those older posts are for the people who haven't read them before and don't know or don't understand the facts and issues regarding BCGs. We can't have a really informed discussion unless everyone has read the same material. These new posts like this have some inaccuracies and no body who has read those old posts wants to go back and re-litigate discussions.
I too am not a fan of coated bolts and carriers. All the experience I have had with nickel boron has been a disaster. That being said the Sionics NP3 is the real deal. For any suppressed shooting I think it's a must. The whole "carbon just wipes off" myth is totally real their BCGs. I have had nasty, suppressed, dirty, +1k rounds of 300 blackout where you have that awesome caked on mix of lube and carbon. Hit it up with a little M-Pro7 and it just cleans right up. Its magical but you pay for it.
Maybe I'll try one for fun. You are talking me into it.
IMHO, other than being not only slick as hell, NP3 can also be pretty hard. Having it on the carrier's upper contact surfaces will give it an edge vs an untreated one, with reduced wear on contact surfaces and extend the run time a little more before there is a malfunction when it’s really dirty or when there is little lube present.
Don Quijote
01-23-19, 17:42
We can't have a really informed discussion unless everyone has read the same material..
I beg to differ. For some their body of knowledge in metallurgy, heat treatment, materials science, and non-destructive inspection comes from technical education and relevant professional experience (25 years in my case). They don't get their knowledge from the internet.
I beg to differ. For some their body of knowledge in metallurgy, heat treatment, materials science, and non-destructive inspection comes from technical education and relevant professional experience (25 years in my case). They don't get their knowledge from the internet.
Did you attend electronic school in the Marine Corps?
Don Quijote
01-24-19, 07:58
Did you attend electronic school in the Marine Corps?
No. And whether I or anyone else did or didn't has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
No. And whether I or anyone else did or didn't has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
I think it does.
What's the color of the boathouse at Hereford?
hotrodder636
01-24-19, 11:54
These threads always entertain me.
I think it does.
What's the color of the boathouse at Hereford?
Brown brick with some blue and white if you are talking about the one on the Wye.
Don't ask, I'll have to kill you.
Brown brick with some blue and white if you are talking about the one on the Wye.
Don't ask, I'll have to kill you.
https://media.giphy.com/media/KUOPgSNoKVcuQ/giphy.gif
I think I'm going to refocus my interests a little bit.
I think we are putting too much emotion into a decision that should be logical in nature. That is the nature of the beast online though, right?
Andy
No emotion here. Just a bit of frustration with all the trade secrets about brand name part that the brand doesn’t even make. At least with Giessele we know exactly where his brand comes from, the why’s of the engineering behind it, and his motivations.
No emotion here. Just a bit of frustration with all the trade secrets about brand name part that the brand doesn’t even make. At least with Giessele we know exactly where his brand comes from, the why’s of the engineering behind it, and his motivations.
Unless you are truly interested in who make what for who just go with a known quantity (Colt, Sionics and BCM are the ones that come to mind).
Unless you are truly interested in who make what for who just go with a known quantity (Colt, Sionics and BCM are the ones that come to mind).
Good advice! Anything better than those you listed is probably only marginally better at best or marketing hype. This is not to say that I don't appreciate innovation and improvement though.
No emotion here. Just a bit of frustration with all the trade secrets about brand name part that the brand doesn’t even make. At least with Giessele we know exactly where his brand comes from, the why’s of the engineering behind it, and his motivations.
This
Also the "so much false info" comments without providing "correct" info is kinda annoying.
The smoke and mirrors around some parts is ridiculous.
Please do tell. Where does his stuff as well as the ALG stuff come from?
No emotion here. Just a bit of frustration with all the trade secrets about brand name part that the brand doesn’t even make. At least with Giessele we know exactly where his brand comes from, the why’s of the engineering behind it, and his motivations.
I beg to differ. For some their body of knowledge in metallurgy, heat treatment, materials science, and non-destructive inspection comes from technical education and relevant professional experience (25 years in my case). They don't get their knowledge from the internet.
Sorry, but I don't really get the impression that you are any type of expert. Or even that well educated. Beside that small point, you are not the only person following this thread. I understand that you have a high opinion of yourself, that's obvious, but frankly you really haven't contributed anything useful to this discussion.
Oh no, don't tell me that the "made in house" is all marketing too? So his stuff is not made in a Geissele shop in PA?
I asked you specifically since you mentioned it. Are saying ALG triggers and Geissele LPK's as well as BCG's are made in house?
Oh no, don't tell me that the "made in house" is all marketing too? So his stuff is not made in a Geissele shop in PA?
I asked you specifically since you mentioned it. Are saying ALG triggers and Geissele LPK's as well as BCG's are made in house?
I can only say that Bill Geissele said in his latest videos that his new Geissele LPK's are made in house. Not sure about upper/lower receivers, BCG's, and barrels. If thats mis information thats what I got from his video. I am as far from an authority on gun industry stuff as you can get.
Well then they must suck at it if they have < 50% first pass yield. Is that someone you want to buy from?
LOL at anyone who thinks that's something to be proud of.Actually yes. A good QA/QC means happy customers, and happy customers like to tell all their buds about this brand and stay being a customer.
I can only say that Bill Geissele said in his latest videos that his new Geissele LPK's are made in house. Not sure about upper/lower receivers, BCG's, and barrels. If thats mis information thats what I got from his video. I am as far from an authority on gun industry stuff as you can get.
Not implying that I don’t believe you, but can you post a link to this video?
My iPhone XS Max is better than your android!
Not implying that I don’t believe you, but can you post a link to this video?
My iPhone XS Max is better than your android!
https://m.twitch.tv/videos/364639538
Not implying that I don’t believe you, but can you post a link to this video?
My iPhone XS Max is better than your android!
This one, from the shot show details the rifle, probably last 1/3. Talks about LPK's, barrels, etc. I got the impression his goal, if not already achieved, is to do everything in house. He said they had two 'new cells' to do barrels, etc. Here's the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxjEdj8Z5kE
Here is the thread: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?212779-New-Geiselle-stuff-at-2019-SHOT-Show
The link I posted goes into more manufacturing detail.
I think it does.
What's the color of the boathouse at Hereford?
I think you just gave yourself away. IF you were English you would have spelled it "colour"
SeriousStudent
01-26-19, 12:59
These threads always entertain me.
These threads always make me want to ban the shit out of people, after locking it.
But that's just my kind and gentle nature.
These threads always make me want to ban the shit out of people, after locking it.
But that's just my kind and gentle nature.
What about pointing out and correcting bad info?
These threads stay forever and even searching and reading ends up with members trying to decipher what is good info and what is bs.
thopkins22
01-26-19, 14:58
What about pointing out and correcting bad info?
These threads stay forever and even searching and reading ends up with members trying to decipher what is good info and what is bs.
Spot on.
Years ago I went back and forth in PM with a now deceased member here who I was very fond of. Some of us have patches with his name and screen name on them. He was strongly considering leaving the site, following the angry fists of Stalin era that some of us remember.
He made it is mission to step in to keep members from cleating each other and to maintain a collegial and respectful tone, no matter what the subject was.
I do think that when you have members attempting to decipher conflicting information, and now that our understanding of what means what is so far beyond the old chart days, it would behoove us to do better.
Not directing that at anyone in particular, especially not Serious Student above me whom I believe shares many qualities with AC, and is very much a healthy and positive influence on discourse here.
Perhaps it’s just time for someone to compile known and good information on what is what again and place it in a format that is easy to understand and decipher.
I might do it if I can snag a few hints from folks on what all to include, and what is conjecture vs. known fact.
There is no doubt that Geissele is making some of the LPK's (maybe all of them) in house. They would have to because of their special features. I would be shocked to learn they are doing BCG's in house because it isn't usually cost effective when you have to major manufacturers supplying a large majority of BCG's to the market.
ALG triggers are made for them by a company in Illinois. You can check this simply by looking for the two S's within a square. Which you will also see on Colt and FN MILSPEC rifles and many others.
The link I posted goes into more manufacturing detail.
I thought its been mostly a civil exchange. As far as correcting some of the miss-information that won't happen in regards to who's manufacturing who's barrels, uppers, lowers, BCG's LPK's etc. The big name brands don't want folks (competitors) finding out. Hence all the NDA's. Now open source facts might be worth compiling because searching through old threads that are chalked full of speculation and opinions is very time consuming and can end up being a colossal waste.
SeriousStudent
01-26-19, 15:34
What about pointing out and correcting bad info?
These threads stay forever and even searching and reading ends up with members trying to decipher what is good info and what is bs.
Exactly my point. Some people just never get the hint. Especially when you have multiple IP's, mods, and sometimes even SME's pointing things out.
Any opinions on the Ballistic Advantage DLC BCG? Do any of you have any experience with it or any other DLC BCG?
https://ballisticadvantage.com/556-bcg-dlc.html
Best advice I've gotten here or anywhere was buy quality, buy once, cry once. Go with a proven performer anyone? As a result my experience with BCGs is BCM and Colt. All the other parts and assemblies on my ARs are restrained to Colt, LMT, BCM and Aimpoint. Others may used with success other lessor or well known brands but these have never let me down. If I have to wait a little longer to save up for something then so be it.
Any opinions on the Ballistic Advantage DLC BCG? Do any of you have any experience with it or any other DLC BCG?
https://ballisticadvantage.com/556-bcg-dlc.html
Cokeman,
I have used Ballistic Advantage and Aero Precision BCG's in most of my builds. I have several Nickel Boron and one BA with DLC. Most of us are never going to wear out our BCG. Those coatings do have built in lubrication but you should still use lubricant. The biggest advantage that I have noticed is with ease of cleaning.
Cokeman,
I have used Ballistic Advantage and Aero Precision BCG's in most of my builds. I have several Nickel Boron and one BA with DLC. Most of us are never going to wear out our BCG. Those coatings do have built in lubrication but you should still use lubricant. The biggest advantage that I have noticed is with ease of cleaning.
Now you've done it.
Popping corn:cool:
Toolcraft has a lifetime warranty. They manufacture 9,000 carriers a week! They source the bolts from Swan but the life time warranty covers the whole BCG. Hard to go wrong with that.
I was going to get the Sionics but then I read the LMT E-BCG was designed for a 14.5” barrel and suppressors so I went that direction.
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Toolcraft has a lifetime warranty. They manufacture 9,000 carriers a week! They source the bolts from Swan but the life time warranty covers the whole BCG. Hard to go wrong with that.
I just called Toolcraft. Based on your post, I had a question about BCG's bought from vendors such as WCArmory and whether the warranty still applied. Also curious about how they could identify the non-cage code marked carriers and the bolts.
I talked with a very helpful gentleman named Tony. He identified himself at the beginning of the conversation, and as we ended our conversation he again said 'my name is Tony, call me if you have any other questions or concerns, I'll get you taken care of' which I thought was pretty nice.
I asked about the warranty and specifically if it covered the bolt since they are sourced from another vendor. His response, paraphrased: 'Yes, we sold you the bolt carrier group. If the bolt fails, that is our problem and we will make you happy.'
When I asked him how they were able to tell a BCG was theirs, he kind of chuckled and said there are numerous things that the folks that have been making them for years can look at to identify whether it came from them.
Based on this, I am even more comfortable with my decision to stick with the Toolcraft C-158 BCG's.
I know extractor, springs, ejectors, gas rings, and lugs wear and brake but personally I’ve never experienced an issue.
vicious_cb
01-29-19, 14:47
I just called Toolcraft. Based on your post, I had a question about BCG's bought from vendors such as WCArmory and whether the warranty still applied. Also curious about how they could identify the non-cage code marked carriers and the bolts.
I talked with a very helpful gentleman named Tony. He identified himself at the beginning of the conversation, and as we ended our conversation he again said 'my name is Tony, call me if you have any other questions or concerns, I'll get you taken care of' which I thought was pretty nice.
I asked about the warranty and specifically if it covered the bolt since they are sourced from another vendor. His response, paraphrased: 'Yes, we sold you the bolt carrier group. If the bolt fails, that is our problem and we will make you happy.'
When I asked him how they were able to tell a BCG was theirs, he kind of chuckled and said there are numerous things that the folks that have been making them for years can look at to identify whether it came from them.
Based on this, I am even more comfortable with my decision to stick with the Toolcraft C-158 BCG's.
Unfortunately I dont give shit how awesome a company's CS is on a critical component like a bolt. For example Sharps CS was amazing when I broke their S7 bolt, instantly sent out a replacement, however unless you can teleport a new bolt into my gun if it fails during a gunfight then that CS is worthless to me. I will never buy another Sharps bolt again, EVER. Lifetime warranties are worthless to me on critical components. Id rather have someone like BCM do all the QC and live fire testing and pay more up front than have to use CS on critical part that may fail when its most needed.
Unfortunately I dont give shit how awesome a company's CS is on a critical component like a bolt. For example Sharps CS was amazing when I broke their S7 bolt, instantly sent out a replacement, however unless you can teleport a new bolt into my gun if it fails during a gunfight then that CS is worthless to me. I will never buy another Sharps bolt again, EVER. Lifetime warranties are worthless to me on critical components. Id rather have someone like BCM do all the QC and live fire testing and pay more up front than have to use CS on critical part that may fail when its most needed.
Well, as far as I'm concerned, I've done more live-fire testing than BCM does on an individual bolt after I've fired the first mag.
DO NOT get me wrong, I think that BCM's attitude is it has to absolutely work out of the box, because someone might put it in a duty weapon and trust it without firing it to be sure. I applaud that attention to detail for those that desire/need it, BUT, I am not one who will pay substantially more for that final QC check.
Rock on if you have that need.
I honestly don't see how some of you guys live day to day. Do you pay this much attention to the brake pads, calipers and rotors that stop your cars? More likely to slam on your brakes than you are to be engaged in a running gun fight with an AR.
vicious_cb
01-29-19, 17:48
Well, as far as I'm concerned, I've done more live-fire testing than BCM does on an individual bolt after I've fired the first mag.
DO NOT get me wrong, I think that BCM's attitude is it has to absolutely work out of the box, because someone might put it in a duty weapon and trust it without firing it to be sure. I applaud that attention to detail for those that desire/need it, BUT, I am not one who will pay substantially more for that final QC check.
Rock on if you have that need.
I honestly don't see how some of you guys live day to day. Do you pay this much attention to the brake pads, calipers and rotors that stop your cars? More likely to slam on your brakes than you are to be engaged in a running gun fight with an AR.
Everytime I get my tires rotated everything gets checked. Rotors are turned everytime pads get replaced, same with a break fluid flush. I leave nothing to chance. ;)
Take care of your machines and they will take care of you.
I recall reading an article by Kyle Defor about bolts during his cadre days at Blackwater with Travis Haley. The article had pictures of bolts with broken lugs from extremely high round counts. The bolts broke on DPMS, Colt, and BCM BCG’s. Even with a couple broke lugs though the guns still functioned.
When it comes to the reputable brands I doubt that there really is a “best”. Only slight enhancements.
One thing about 9310 steel...
Some people seem to think, or imply, it is tricky to heat treat, or at least more so than Carp 158. The only thing I have ever heard from materials engineers about 9310 is that is requires cryo treating before tempering to achieve fatigue strength, but otherwise no more difficult to treat to the desired physical properties.
And, it should be noted that Carpenter Tech itself states that Carp 158 is supplied to ASTM A646/646M, which is the same specification that 9310 falls under. In fact, aside from the absence of molybdenum and 0.10% more Chromium in Carp 158 , the only difference between the two is that Carpenter does not list the maximum "less desirable" elements, phosphorous and sulfur, which are going to present in any steel alloy.
Carpenter 158 is almost exactly AISI 3310 steel, however, AISI 9310 is probably picked for alternate bolt material as it is well known and understood in the weapons industry. Machine gun bolts have been made from AISI 9310 since the mid-1950s, notably the M60 bolt and it was investigated as an alternate for 8620 for M14 bolts.
Y'all are funny. Expecting something to be the most infallible yet I have not seen one thing not fail and you want to know why? Physics. It can't be beaten. Have spares. Have enough spares. Having spare parts on hand is the only narrative that I subscribe to because physics is real, nothing can defeat actual proven fact based science.
Google high round count AR-15's. Don't just read the first post and try to base victory on just some cherry picking of your own selective reading because of emotions. Read the whole thing.
Physics, it can't be beaten. Whether you like it or not, that's the facts.
vicious_cb
01-30-19, 01:36
Y'all are funny. Expecting something to be the most infallible yet I have not seen one thing not fail and you want to know why? Physics. It can't be beaten. Have spares. Have enough spares. Having spare parts on hand is the only narrative that I subscribe to because physics is real, nothing can defeat actual proven fact based science.
Google high round count AR-15's. Don't just read the first post and try to base victory on just some cherry picking of your own selective reading because of emotions. Read the whole thing.
Physics, it can't be beaten. Whether you like it or not, that's the facts.
PHYSICS is the reason bolts prematurely fail. Certain companies bolts fail because they improperly apply PHYSICS when heat treating their bolts. #FACT #SCIENCE
PHYSICS is the reason bolts prematurely fail. Certain companies bolts fail because they improperly apply PHYSICS when heat treating their bolts. #FACT #SCIENCESo you're validating me. Thanks, moving on...also, ALL THINGS FAIL not only certain because #FACT #SCIENCE
thopkins22
01-30-19, 02:14
So you're validating me. Thanks, moving on...also, ALL THINGS FAIL not only certain because #FACT #SCIENCE
The human body/skeleton decomposes quickly. There are mummy’s that are 7000 years old thanks to science.
Some bolts last longer than others...thanks to science.
It’s a weird line to throw down in the sand.
Will they all fail if used hard enough? Yes. Are your chances of one lasting longer better if material sciences are leveraged with that in mind? Absolutely.
The human body/skeleton decomposes quickly. There are mummy’s that are 7000 years old thanks to science.
Some bolts last longer than others...thanks to science.
It’s a weird line to throw down in the sand.
Will they all fail if used hard enough? Yes. Are your chances of one lasting longer better if material sciences are leveraged with that in mind? Absolutely.So making it to 21K before failing as opposed to 20K and failing? The juice is not worth the squeeze when it's barely better.
I'd like to see the numbers where people died because a Toolcraft BCG was used instead of a BCM or whatever. If we're going to use narratives and then talk science to try to win the argument, let's see the numbers.
thopkins22
01-30-19, 08:43
So making it to 21K before failing as opposed to 20K and failing? The juice is not worth the squeeze when it's barely better.
I'd like to see the numbers where people died because a Toolcraft BCG was used instead of a BCM or whatever. If we're going to use narratives and then talk science to try to win the argument, let's see the numbers.
Not worth the squeeze TO YOU.
No idea if toolcraft is worse, better, or identical to BCM’s. How many people died is going to be zero, and there are no numbers that I’m aware of which have determined anything.
That’s what people are trying to learn. Maybe there is no difference. But there is a difference between some of them.
The thing is since the manufacturing info is kept under tight wraps it’s possible to have a $70 Mil-Spec Toolcraft BCG and a $170 premium brand BCG that are identical save the logo. As a buyer you just don’t know.
The thing is since the manufacturing info is kept under tight wraps it’s possible to have a $70 Mil-Spec Toolcraft BCG and a $170 premium brand BCG that are identical save the logo. As a buyer you just don’t know.II have read the very same.
The thing is since the manufacturing info is kept under tight wraps it’s possible to have a $70 Mil-Spec Toolcraft BCG and a $170 premium brand BCG that are identical save the logo. As a buyer you just don’t know.
BINGO!!! If folks want to buy a BCM over a Toolcraft, in the example being used, because they are aware of, and feel reassured by the extra QC steps that BCM takes, then more power to them. They have made a decision that is correct for them.
The issue in this thread, and many others, is that when folks try to point out less expensive alternatives that are made to the mil-spec, they are shouted down by people who have no freaking idea about where their favorite manufacturer sourced their parts and assemblies.
I do not own an AR that was bought as a complete AR, I've assembled them all. As I've gained experience, I use BCM pretty much exclusively for several components, stripped uppers and A5 kits jump to mind, because the price and perceived quality give me the best bang for my buck.
I also understand that some folks don't like tinkering. If a BIL who lived several states away told me he wanted to buy a patrol rifle that was reliable out of the box, I'd probably point him at Sionics, because they are advertised as essentially being hand built by the same guy, apparently have thorough QC, and are reasonably competitive on price.
My LMT E-BCG just arrived and there’s some minor marking on the carrier. Does LMT test fire these after manufacturing?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190131/dbaa7ed946d0f60ff01888ddc81cae54.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190131/5206bf264bcaa92c92ab7c22aa8cc87a.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190131/7a10bb76176e685a0c6fa34c8413b288.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190131/af8db66dbce3025cbaebc15a9bfdaaf5.jpg
Upon further inspection it has definitely been fired. Furthermore there is copper debri inside the carrier and the coating inside the carrier isn’t even. I don’t mind the test firing but upon visual inspection this isn’t what I would expect from LMT, someone please tell me if I’m wrong. Also the bolt is extremely tight inside the carrier and requires a bit of force to move back and forth, it won’t slide out with a simple flick.
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It's LMT but it's still a mass produced item on an automated line including the QC process. Forget about any TLC.
[IMG]
Upon further inspection it has definitely been fired. Furthermore there is copper debri inside the carrier and the coating inside the carrier isn’t even. I don’t mind the test firing but upon visual inspection this isn’t what I would expect from LMT, someone please tell me if I’m wrong. Also the bolt is extremely tight inside the carrier and requires a bit of force to move back and forth, it won’t slide out with a simple flick.
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Its hard to judge a phosphate carrier by appearance.
I have 1 LMT bcg, and I have not even fired the upper it came in yet. It does not look as well finished/isn't as pretty as my CAGE-marked Toolcraft, Sionics, or BCM bcgs. I know LMT is a solid brand so I am not concerned with the way the bcg looks - someone at LMT inspected it who knows more about what they are seeing than I do.
The bolt is tight in the carrier because the gas rings are new, that is perfectly normal.
Andy
Response from Strong Side Tactical, I’ll take this as a valid explanation:
I can assure you that is one of the best BCGs on the market. We've been selling them for years and never had an issue with them. LMT runs approximately 90 rounds through all of their parts before they leave their facility, so it will look like more use than a standard 2-5 round test. They don't clean them after the testing so that you can see it's tested. They have a very good quality control department as well, if there was excessive wear on it, they would've rejected it and studied the parts.
The LMT carriers and bolts have very tight tolerances. That should smooth out over a few mags and is most likely the gas rings wearing into the carrier, which is very common for the 3 piece ring sets.
We also don't use any of the products on our shelves. They stay sealed or packed just as we get them from all of our vendors. We do run a lot of products hard before we put them on our site to assure it's quality, but we wouldn't sell those on our site, those are usually either kept for our personal guns or sold/given to locals or friends once we're done.
If you still have concerns, I'd be happy to chat with you. Just let me know if I can help with anything else.
Clayton
Strong Side Tactical
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Here's another option
http://www.aopmfg.com/industries/firearms/
https://www.righttobear.com/product-p/aom16-hpt-mpi-dealer.htm
Here's another option
http://www.aopmfg.com/industries/firearms/
https://www.righttobear.com/product-p/aom16-hpt-mpi-dealer.htm
Just to chime in on these, I ordered two just to throw in the back of the safe. They seem to have gotten good reviews. They do seem to be of somewhat decent quality but you can definitely see the machine work on the carriers. I think if you want to go this route you're better off to go with toolcraft, just my opinion but I was not impressed.
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