View Full Version : Venezuela coming to a head
Venezuela looks like it's going to kick off. If we/they're lucky, those with the guns will decide it's time to back another horse, and back the new guy. But the corruption and such, probably not going to happen, and thugs and tyrants always double down when put in a corner.
So, Trump admin backs new guy (Juan Guaidó) as pres of Venezuela, and makes it clear actions against US diplomats etc by Maduro's thugs will be dealt with swiftly. Now that US does not recognize D bag officially and labeling him a criminal and or terrorist if he does not follow along, that makes it easier to justify dealing with D bag internationally, and it's a clear challenge to him. He's stuck between a rock and a hard place there, and his ilk only knows one way to deal with it. Apparently Rubio may have brokered this one. Russia (as well as China and Iran) however warns the US not to intervene, as they now have leverage and $ sunk into the region and don't want to lose it. Personally, I think the line in the sand crossed was when Iran became a known player in the country, (1) but all happened under the spineless prior admin, so that's a mess inherited:
The Rubio doctrine: U.S. recognition of new Venezuelan leader is Florida senator’s work
https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/world/americas/venezuela/article224976955.html?fbclid=IwAR27umuYvm4ybDOa0XM_pqBJVcGUWA_a20rP0-OqrItrdcyUfm5CRFK9UkU
Russia warns U.S. against military intervention in Venezuela
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/russia-warns-u-s-against-military-intervention-venezuela-n962091
(1) https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?210668-Hezbollah-and-Iran-find-new-strength-in-Latin-America&highlight=Venezuela
thopkins22
01-24-19, 10:24
I spent much of my youth in Venezuela. I lived there when Chavez was elected. I remember the embassy and our companies giving everyone emergency plans, which thankfully weren’t needed. I saw a woman hang herself in protest outside of my building. I sincerely hope they dump Maduro.
We should definitely keep our noses out of it though. Obviously we shouldn’t have a military intervention, but our spooks need to be very careful as well, as it was their perceived(and somewhat real) intervention that cemented many moderates into the Chavista camp for a bit.
I spent much of my youth in Venezuela.
Did you dad work for an oil company, if so which one?
My ex-BIL was the UP's account manager for Champlain, his job went away pretty quickly.
thopkins22
01-24-19, 10:54
Did you dad work for an oil company, if so which one?
Yep. He did completions for Schlumberger.
There’s a good chance they might know each other or have a mutual friend. The expat world is pretty small.
And yeah, we were gone before much time passed.
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-24-19, 11:53
Venezuela coming to a head... on a stick...
I spent much of my youth in Venezuela. I lived there when Chavez was elected. I remember the embassy and our companies giving everyone emergency plans, which thankfully weren’t needed. I saw a woman hang herself in protest outside of my building. I sincerely hope they dump Maduro.
We should definitely keep our noses out of it though. Obviously we shouldn’t have a military intervention, but our spooks need to be very careful as well, as it was their perceived(and somewhat real) intervention that cemented many moderates into the Chavista camp for a bit.
Even if anti-maduro actions were completely and genuinely internal, maduro will still blame the US. That's the chavez playbook.
*sigh* If only they had real socialism in Venezuela, none of this would have happened, amirite folks?
thopkins22
01-24-19, 13:30
Even if anti-maduro actions were completely and genuinely internal, maduro will still blame the US. That's the chavez playbook.
Oh absolutely. But we’re watching the natural outcome of price controls and government controlled capital interests. We don’t have to do anything. And our interference will likely prolong the revolution or at the very least have unforeseen consequences...as it has in the vast majority of instances throughout history.
sundance435
01-24-19, 13:54
I think we're pretty sufficiently removed from any direct action in the Americas anymore, unless it's like "Clear and Present Danger" covert, completely disavowable. I've been so S. America a few times and loved it, but it's annoying how little Americans know about the history of our southern neighbors. Hoping this works out for the Venezuelan people without a civil war and/or thousands of bodies. It (Venezuela) has the potential to destabilize a lot of South America, especially Colombia and Central America.
Even if anti-maduro actions were completely and genuinely internal, maduro will still blame the US. That's the chavez playbook.
I know a lot of people in, and from, Venezuela, and none of them believe that BS, so at least he has few in the population being manipulated by the propaganda it appears. They know who is ultimately to blame, but they also disarmed the population in 2012 following the Commie Dictator handbook 101 to assure the population can't do anything about before complete takeover: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-18288430
Gee, never would have seen that coming!
thopkins22
01-24-19, 15:00
I know a lot of people in, and from, Venezuela, and none of them believe that BS, so at least he has few in the population being manipulated by the propaganda it appears.
As long as it remains propaganda that’s mostly true. But it’s also fair to say that the folks with the means to know Americans either by travel, language, or relatives married to Americans etc...aren’t exactly the Venezuelans that the propaganda is directed at. Those tend to be the folks who would have already left if they could afford to, or are the backbone of the opposition.
Like I said that’s a big stereotype I’m making, and I obviously don’t know the people you’re talking about, but across the population I believe it to be true.
*sigh* If only they had real socialism in Venezuela, none of this would have happened, amirite folks?
You are correct. If they would have followed Alexandria Crazio-Cortez’s socialist plan for America they would not have all their problems.
Ned Christiansen
01-24-19, 16:11
Possible worse-before-better times coming shortly but I think it'll be short. The "better" part, once arrived at, will be a slow uphill battle though, so much damage has been done that if the best guy in the world became president tomorrow, it would still take a decade or decades to get things back up and running right, and the reputation of the country has suffered so much that it will be even longer to again shed the "banana republic" stereotype.
I believe in the coming days or weeks Maduro will have to either ramp up seriously on repression to the point of killing Venezuelans by the truckload, or cut and run. Dollars to doughnuts he has at least one place to go where he has a fine villa ready to move in to with plenty of Venezuelan gold in the safe. Turkey, maybe. Maybe also in one of the other countries that always lend their support to leaders who are, like themselves, anti-freedom. The list of countries expressing support for Maduro is short and predictable.
Heard something about the "peaceful, democratic return to normalcy and prosperity in Venezuela". Well, that'd be nice. Maburro may not the the legit democratically-elected president due to election shenanigans, but neither is Guaido who is basically self-appointed. That often is a bad sign, but, well, something, any damned thing really, had to be done and he can't hardly be worse than Maduro.
I hope we stay out of it. I have a special connection to Venezuela and know it pretty well but it's time for Venezuelans to fix, lo siento, their own mistake. Way better that it be by democratic means; second choice a lynching which I guess if the vast majority of Venezuelans see that as the next step, that's democratic too, sorta; last choice, the World Police intervene. Some Venezuelans I know would go for this and I've even heard calls for it but I think most have too much pride and do see it as a Venezuelan problem they themselves need to fix. Thats' the shortest route to a full recovery they can call their own.
I wish Oscar Perez could have been a part of this, he deserved it instead of being murdered by Maduro's private cadre of foreign sicarios in the guise of Venezuelan NG / police. One outrage among many, but if and when there is a trial, I hope that one is not forgotten.
All the folks wanting to test their Civil War mettle should book a Flight and show em what’s up
ramairthree
01-25-19, 14:26
All the folks wanting to test their Civil War mettle should book a Flight and show em what’s up
Sweet.
It’ll be like the good old days when you could make your own Army.
I put a call out for rustlers, cut throats, murderers, bounty hunters, desperados, mugs, pugs, thugs, nitwits, halfwits, dimwits, vipers, snipers, con men, Indian agents, Mexican bandits, muggers, buggerers, bushwhackers, hornswogglers, horse thieves, bull dykes, train robbers, bank robbers, ass-kickers, shit-kickers, and Methodists.
First guy in line said he likes
“Rape, murder, arson and rape.”
Sweet.
It’ll be like the good old days when you could make your own Army.
I put a call out for rustlers, cut throats, murderers, bounty hunters, desperados, mugs, pugs, thugs, nitwits, halfwits, dimwits, vipers, snipers, con men, Indian agents, Mexican bandits, muggers, buggerers, bushwhackers, hornswogglers, horse thieves, bull dykes, train robbers, bank robbers, ass-kickers, shit-kickers, and Methodists.
First guy in line said he likes
“Rape, murder, arson and rape.”
^^^^Funniest movie ever.
Grand58742
01-25-19, 14:59
^^^^Funniest movie ever.
Can't be made today.
Can't be made today.
No it cannot. Today we have too many easily offended, thin skinned, non-coping, panty waisted snowflakes in society.
All the folks wanting to test their Civil War mettle should book a Flight and show em what’s up
Or......go enforce the law.
Or......go enforce the law.
That's crazy talk, sir.
There are people with umpteen thousand dollars in Delta Force rifle clones, multicam, and kill lists in need to show their ass
You are correct. If they would have followed Alexandria Crazio-Cortez’s socialist plan for America they would not have all their problems.
We're missing a golden opportunity here. With the shutdown negotiations about to start back up, Trump needs to pitch to Nancy that with AOC being a Latina with such impressive economic credentials, they should agree to send her to Venezuela as a special envoy. That way she could help them fix their economic woes and save the Venezuelan people from evil capitalism!
Seriously, do you think Nancy would miss her for six months or so? :cool:
We're missing a golden opportunity here. With the shutdown negotiations about to start back up, Trump needs to pitch to Nancy that with AOC being a Latina with such impressive economic credentials, they should agree to send her to Venezuela as a special envoy. That way she could help them fix their economic woes and save the Venezuelan people from evil capitalism!
Seriously, do you think Nancy would miss her for six months or so? :cool:
OMG..,
I just had this fantasy of AOC in sleeveless OG107s with a PARA FAL and a yellow kerchief and me with tiger stripes and a 6.8 in Venezuela making Venezuela Great Again forming up an army and retiring to a Hacienda on the beach living on pizza, powerade, and love as the people shout Vive la Revolution! Vive la amor siempre!
and it is making me feel some kind of way.
Her in her sheer sundress and barefoot and me with a stogie and an eyepatch wearing an M. Bison looking outfit being adored as ironfisted rulers.
Oooh man.
Sorry but that’d be groovy.
Oh well, I’ll save it for my wet dreams.
Sorry Phoebe Cates but, this is my new go to.
That's crazy talk, sir.
There are people with umpteen thousand dollars in Delta Force rifle clones, multicam, and kill lists in need to show their ass
I just figured that some with sworn oaths to keep peace and uphold/enforce laws may want to test their riot control training
and tactics in case those with the delta force clone rifles and kill lists get their “call to arms” they’re waiting for. Lol
Still with the 6.8? If ima gonna be a venezuelan warlord im gettin me one of those 7x49 FALs
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I just figured that some with sworn oaths to keep peace and uphold/enforce laws may want to test their riot control training
and tactics in case those with the delta force clone rifles and kill lists get their “call to arms” they’re waiting for. Lol
Depends on how much it pays...
Still with the 6.8? If ima gonna be a venezuelan warlord im gettin me one of those 7x49 FALs
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6.8 is just a really neat caliber. This is my wet dream. You are free to use your own. But AOC is mine.
You can have skeletor—er Pelosi as your battle buddy.
Lotsa lonely Venezuelan girls...
One morbid observation...
In a lot of these pictures of turbulent Venezuela them women down there still find a way to shave their armpits and legs.
And yet even the doctors down there cannot buy toilet paper.
Things that make ya go “hmm”
Aaaaand, now there's this:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-politics-russia-exclusive/exclusive-kremlin-linked-contractors-help-guard-venezuelas-maduro-sources-idUSKCN1PJ22M
Putin is still playing Cold War era proxy warfare games, and it sounds like there are plenty of willing players.
Aaaaand, now there's this:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-politics-russia-exclusive/exclusive-kremlin-linked-contractors-help-guard-venezuelas-maduro-sources-idUSKCN1PJ22M
Putin is still playing Cold War era proxy warfare games, and it sounds like there are plenty of willing players.
Well.....everybody wanted the 80s back....
6.8 is just a really neat caliber. This is my wet dream. You are free to use your own. But AOC is mine.
You can have skeletor—er Pelosi as your battle buddy.
Lotsa lonely Venezuelan girls...
One morbid observation...
In a lot of these pictures of turbulent Venezuela them women down there still find a way to shave their armpits and legs.
And yet even the doctors down there cannot buy toilet paper.
Things that make ya go “hmm”
True story. We were running an IDPA National Championship in 03-04(?) near Little Rock. The Venezuelans had two teams there, one civvy, one military. The civvy bunch was very cool and we remained friends for many years. The .mil team was very shall we say, attentive to their head honcho, who was a 2 star general. He never spoke to anyone outside the team and I kid you not, shot every stage one handed, all head shots. When he shot the stages in my bay, all I could think was he’d had some practical experience doing that. :eek:
Anyway, they had some muy caliente chicas they brought with them from home. One of our more naive RO’s mentioned to a Sgt. that they had some very beautiful girlfriends/wives with them. He chortled and said “Is no esposa! Boom, Boom girls!”. I almost fell out laughing at him because he didn’t get it.
Anyway, they brought them to the range dressed to impress so they’d distract the competition, and it worked quite well. Seems I remember they took several trophies home.
I’m still upset that Chavez was such a dick. I got several offers to come to train down there and explore what they had to offer so to speak, but I never felt comfortable enough to go. After a few years the political situation became untenable and I haven’t even heard from my friends in several years. :(
.....I now want to see the Venezuelan IPSC Boom Boom girls.....
Well.....everybody wanted the 80s back....
Now if we can get MTV to play videos again that would be something.
.....I now want to see the Venezuelan IPSC Boom Boom girls.....
I'll dig through my pictures. Maybe longer ago than glocktogo we always shot an IPSC match in Naples Fla. It was in February and the first major match of the year. It was sort of a Pan-American match with many central and south american teams attending. I shot behind a Vn squad with a girl shooter in it. She was attracting a lot of attention. Something about a blond haired blue eyed dark skinned girl built like a brick outhouse will do that.
Ned Christiansen
01-29-19, 19:57
Guaido just gave a great interview on Fox. He says all the right things, which does not at all mean he's the best thing ever for Venezuela but he's damned sure better than El Buffoono Maximo. And he is using the word "interim".
Guaido just gave a great interview on Fox. He says all the right things, which does not at all mean he's the best thing ever for Venezuela but he's damned sure better than El Buffoono Maximo. And he is using the word "interim".
Looks like Maduro may be getting a going away present. It takes big balls to load that much gold onto a Russian plane. I wonder if he is stupid enough to get on the plane with the gold?? https://www.foxnews.com/world/russian-plane-in-venezuela-takes-20-tons-of-gold-flies-to-unknown-location-lawmaker-claims
Plane is a Russian airline's Boeing 777, I would get on that to run away with 20 tons of gold. But I would bet that this is a pay back of Russian loans. Russia knows Maduro is on his way out and wants to recoup some of their money and Maduro needs someplace to run to without whatever the KGB is called these days looking to ice his ass.
Plane is a Russian airline's Boeing 777, I would get on that to run away with 20 tons of gold. But I would bet that this is a pay back of Russian loans. Russia knows Maduro is on his way out and wants to recoup some of their money and Maduro needs someplace to run to without whatever the KGB is called these days looking to ice his ass.
My point exactly. What's the chance the flight crew is KGB? He would have a drug induced heart attack as soon as the seatbelt lights went off.
Ned Christiansen
01-30-19, 11:54
His dacha probably has its own airstrip that can land that puppy in the beautiful Russian countryside.
Actually, in consideration for all he's done for Venezuela, I think he SHOULD be awarded a quantity of Venezeulan gold-- let's say however much he can swim with, plus another five pounds for good measure.
I seriously hope we aren't stupid enough to wade into that cesspool and try and fix a banana republics problems.
I seriously hope we aren't stupid enough to wade into that cesspool and try and fix a banana republics problems.
Really, we have our own banana republic here to fix.
Really, we have our own banana republic here to fix.
Not quite there yet, but I agree.
I seriously hope we aren't stupid enough to wade into that cesspool and try and fix a banana republics problems.
But that's our specialty... ;-)
Ned Christiansen
01-31-19, 16:36
So Murder-o is also gonna sell another 15 tones of gold to the Saudis.... we need to pressure them not to buy it.
So Murder-o is also gonna sell another 15 tones of gold to the Saudis.... we need to pressure them not to buy it.
Don't get me started on the Saudis! F the Saudis. :cool:
Ned Christiansen
02-04-19, 19:26
“Do not compare your physical forces with those of the enemy, because spirit and matter cannot be compared. You are men; they are beasts. You are free: they are slaves. Fight, and you will win…..”
“Let the monsters…..be cast out forever; may their punishment be equal to the enormity of their perfidy, so that we may…demonstrate to the nations of the world that the sons of America cannot be offended with impunity”.
“Through the same measures that enabled the oppressor of Caracas to subjugate…. by those very same measures and with greater certainty than he, I propose to redeem my country”.
Simon Bolivar, 1813
After, now, decades of corrupt, self-aggrandizing buffoons defiling El Libertador by placing themselves in front of his image, by invoking his greatness, by making gifts of his possessions to fellow despots, even, by God, by opening his tomb, I thought a few quotes from Bolivar were apropos.
Expected no doubt. Another move in the chess game:
Venezuela crisis: Military 'blocks aid corridor'
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-47143492?fbclid=IwAR0NvQhi3ZtzxK8cm67QUbFlmEc01fmOttiJBoTvU-7kLdT0u99l8yQXCFE
What a POS:
Venezuela crisis: Why the military is backing Maduro
"Mr Maduro, a former bus driver with no previous military links, has continued the trend. The armed forces have played a key role in supporting his government, with many officers holding posts as ministers or other influential positions.
Key sectors now in the hands of senior officers include the crucial food distribution services, run by Defence Minister Vladimir Padrino, and the state-owned oil and gas company PDVSA, which has Maj Gen Manuel Quevedo, head of the national guard, as its president."
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-47036129
platoonDaddy
02-06-19, 13:12
This story reminds me of all the pols, especially hillary, obama, mccain talking about al-assad only has days left. All these years later, he is still in office, as the socialist government of venezuela.
This may be the softest “revolution” history has ever seen. The opposition needs to take up arms and start fighting the communist despots in power.
This may be the softest “revolution” history has ever seen. The opposition needs to take up arms and start fighting the communist despots in power.One of the "softest" would be the so-called "People Power revolution" in February of 1986 in the Philippines.
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This may be the softest “revolution” history has ever seen. The opposition needs to take up arms and start fighting the communist despots in power.
What arms? Didn't they confiscate all firearms so only the despots had guns?
sundance435
02-08-19, 10:17
Expected no doubt. Another move in the chess game:
Venezuela crisis: Military 'blocks aid corridor'
What a POS:
Venezuela crisis: Why the military is backing Maduro
"Mr Maduro, a former bus driver with no previous military links, has continued the trend. The armed forces have played a key role in supporting his government, with many officers holding posts as ministers or other influential positions.
Key sectors now in the hands of senior officers include the crucial food distribution services, run by Defence Minister Vladimir Padrino, and the state-owned oil and gas company PDVSA, which has Maj Gen Manuel Quevedo, head of the national guard, as its president."
Well, he's basically a fat Borat. Also, keeping the military happy is tin pot-dictator 101. Everything I've read said it's the lower level guys, those who don't exist off government largesse/graft, that are defecting in any numbers, except for an air force general. Given the right set of circumstances, he may only have an army of generals in the near future.
What arms? Didn't they confiscate all firearms so only the despots had guns?
Yep, I think that happened about a decade ago. Granted, it's South America and "illegal" (using their governments' definition) firearms abound, but still. Ammo is probably the weak link.
That's all bullshit..its just Latin machismo.
Is there NOT a South American country that hasn't gotten a dictator?
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Well, he's basically a fat Borat. Also, keeping the military happy is tin pot-dictator 101. Everything I've read said it's the lower level guys, those who don't exist off government largesse/graft, that are defecting in any numbers, except for an air force general. Given the right set of circumstances, he may only have an army of generals in the near future.
Who should find themselves on trial or worse depending on how it plays out
Yep, I think that happened about a decade ago. Granted, it's South America and "illegal" (using their governments' definition) firearms abound, but still. Ammo is probably the weak link.
2012, using dictatorship handbook 101, you know, for their own good to lower crime...
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-18288430
Averageman
02-23-19, 12:13
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/guaido-and-supporters-prepare-to-challenge-maduros-blockade-of-aid/2019/02/22/b77eff44-3632-11e9-8375-e3dcf6b68558_story.html?utm_term=.17072fa6dc29
Through a bullhorn, Olivares addressed the guards. “I tell you my brothers, stand by the constitution and on the right side of history!” he shouted. “I ask you to end this blockade, and let aid in. I bless you and hope we hug when we pass.” Colombian authorities say aid trucks are moving toward the bridge.
Saturday’s operation has been billed by the opposition and its allies in the Trump administration as a pivotal moment in their bid to topple Maduro’s socialists. The attempts to haul in aid from neighboring nations are meant to test the military’s loyalty by encouraging the armed forces to disobey Maduro’s order to keep the aid out.
I'm hoping humanitarian aid is all that this costs us. Nobody in Venezuela ha called me "Deplorable."
Read something that the local army shot a woman 8nvolved in the air border crossing.
FromMyColdDeadHand
02-23-19, 16:51
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/guaido-and-supporters-prepare-to-challenge-maduros-blockade-of-aid/2019/02/22/b77eff44-3632-11e9-8375-e3dcf6b68558_story.html?utm_term=.17072fa6dc29
Through a bullhorn, Olivares addressed the guards. “I tell you my brothers, stand by the constitution and on the right side of history!” he shouted. “I ask you to end this blockade, and let aid in. I bless you and hope we hug when we pass.” Colombian authorities say aid trucks are moving toward the bridge.
Saturday’s operation has been billed by the opposition and its allies in the Trump administration as a pivotal moment in their bid to topple Maduro’s socialists. The attempts to haul in aid from neighboring nations are meant to test the military’s loyalty by encouraging the armed forces to disobey Maduro’s order to keep the aid out.
I'm hoping humanitarian aid is all that this costs us. Nobody in Venezuela ha called me "Deplorable."
Can we have Rubio out front leading the column...
I seriously hope we aren't stupid enough to wade into that cesspool and try and fix a banana republics problems.
I could'nt agree with you more.. Really all we need to do, is sit back and wait.. cook some popcorn..The people will take care of Maduro themselves just as soon as they've had enough..And, I'd say they're just about there.. I hope Trump is smart enough to stay out of this mess.. I mean, what's wrong with minding our own business for once?
Hopefully China will see it as a great opportunity to set up a puppet dictator, only to piss off the population and have his corruption drain the life blood out of China as well. China DESERVES to inherit Africa and South America and 50 years later learn what I hope we have learned by now.
Hopefully China will see it as a great opportunity to set up a puppet dictator, only to piss off the population and have his corruption drain the life blood out of China as well. China DESERVES to inherit Africa and South America and 50 years later learn what I hope we have learned by now.
Africa is fine by me. Our back yard, not so much. You don't let China, Iran, and Hezbollah set up shop in your back yard, just like you don't let what starts out a small patch of skin cancer grow un checked. Isolationism is no more productive to world safety and out NI, than nation building has been.
Averageman
02-24-19, 17:42
Hopefully China will see it as a great opportunity to set up a puppet dictator, only to piss off the population and have his corruption drain the life blood out of China as well. China DESERVES to inherit Africa and South America and 50 years later learn what I hope we have learned by now.
Most of us here might have learned something, some from a book and some on the ground, but apparently as long as we elect A'holes like Rubio our Son's will learn the secrets lessons the hard way.
So far I'm pretty impressed that we're doing this with food water and Pampers instead of bullets bayonets and mortars.
Say what you will about Trump, but the SOB has got us out of much more of this crap than he's put us in.
It's a strong possibility, and official coup is on:
An attempted coup is underway in Venezuela and was announced by opposition leader Juan Guaido in a video as he stood in front of Venezuelan armed forces troops and armored vehicles.
https://www.funker530.com/coup-venezuela-guaido/?fbclid=IwAR1O38FZ8GMn6qVBStRz-19BKvuHOE-DfXcycucvsnDNPVDmK2-dH9Ihzw8
Grand58742
04-30-19, 12:33
It's a strong possibility, and official coup is on:
An attempted coup is underway in Venezuela and was announced by opposition leader Juan Guaido in a video as he stood in front of Venezuelan armed forces troops and armored vehicles.
https://www.funker530.com/coup-venezuela-guaido/?fbclid=IwAR1O38FZ8GMn6qVBStRz-19BKvuHOE-DfXcycucvsnDNPVDmK2-dH9Ihzw8
Venezuelan National Guard running over protesters with armored vehicles.
https://twitter.com/RVAwonk/status/1123256050843516929
Whiskey_Bravo
04-30-19, 13:21
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/venezuela-s-opposition-leader-juan-guaido-calls-military-uprising-n999966
live video feed moving back and forth between several cameras
Still lots of gun fire. Keep seeing what looks like cops of some sort carrying around and shooting off what looks to be bottle rockets? WTF is that about?
See .... that's why people shouldn't have guns ! Someone might get hurt if the regular people have guns .
See .... that's why people shouldn't have guns ! Someone might get hurt if the regular people have guns .
That’s why regular people should be able to have LAAW rockets and M240s.
They look like they're losing steam. The Katrina and Baltimore looters had more energy and more organized that this. Maybe we should loan them some of our looters.
Whiskey_Bravo
04-30-19, 14:23
They look like they're losing steam. The Katrina and Baltimore looters had more energy and more organized that this. Maybe we should loan them some of our looters.
Agreed. Seems to be just a handful of guys throwing rocks now.
That’s why regular people should be able to have LAAW rockets and M240s.
THIS!
The Code Pink communists in DC are rallying in support of Maduro but it looks like freedom loving Venezuelans outnumber them. The Leftists in this country never fail to show me how brain damaged they really are. They support Maduro who is starving his people, running over them with trucks, cause everlasting electrical blackouts, bankrupted the country, shuttered private businesses, etc.... Yet they call President Trump and his supporters nazis.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/venezuelans-clash-with-pro-maduro-activists-embassy-in-dc
vicious_cb
04-30-19, 18:36
They look like they're losing steam. The Katrina and Baltimore looters had more energy and more organized that this. Maybe we should loan them some of our looters.
But the looters didnt have these awesome 5.7 uppers did they!
Also best AG ever! Motorcycle helmet and a milk crate to carry ammo.
https://i.imgur.com/nNodOhk.jpg
Socialism you can vote your way into it, but you have to shoot your way out.
MountainRaven
04-30-19, 20:50
Socialism you can vote your way into it, but you have to shoot your way out.
That's usually how it is with tyranny.
ETA: NPR reported this evening that Maduro was getting ready to leave the country - until Vladimir Putin convinced him not to leave.
But the looters didnt have these awesome 5.7 uppers did they!
Also best AG ever! Motorcycle helmet and a milk crate to carry ammo.
Guns donated by their army switching side.
Whiskey_Bravo
04-30-19, 21:12
That's usually how it is with tyranny.
ETA: NPR reported this evening that Maduro was getting ready to leave the country - until Vladimir Putin convinced him not to leave.
Yep, I read that he had a plane fueled up and was ready to fly to Cuba until a "reassuring" call from Putin convinced him to stay.
Venezuelan National Guard running over protesters with armored vehicles.
https://twitter.com/RVAwonk/status/1123256050843516929
This is a strong argument for protecting the 2nd Amendment here in CONUS.
Venezuelan National Guard running over protesters with armored vehicles.
https://twitter.com/RVAwonk/status/1123256050843516929
Don't worry, it's not real Socialism.
The Code Pink communists in DC are rallying in support of Maduro but it looks like freedom loving Venezuelans outnumber them. The Leftists in this country never fail to show me how brain damaged they really are. They support Maduro who is starving his people, running over them with trucks, cause everlasting electrical blackouts, bankrupted the country, shuttered private businesses, etc.... Yet they call President Trump and his supporters nazis.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/venezuelans-clash-with-pro-maduro-activists-embassy-in-dc
does not surprise me this is what the left wants to do to any conservative ! so it's dreamtime for them
I bet they are running out of steam if all you had to eat was garbage for months on end you would not have much energy etc..
the wealthy in that country are doing OK for the most part
but this is our future if the left had there way
https://i.imgur.com/nNodOhk.jpg
That is simultaneously the coolest, gayest, inspirational yet disappointing picture I have ever seen.
I will say it isn’t a real revolution until you see a guy buck ass naked wearing War paint and chucking molotov cocktails at people.
I always use that as a litmus.
Grand58742
05-01-19, 07:18
This is a strong argument for protecting the 2nd Amendment here in CONUS.
Gonna need something a little more than tricked out BCMs to deal with that.
https://youtu.be/Z-ocLQXS294
Gonna need something a little more than tricked out BCMs to deal with that.
While the oppressed need access to more than small arms to negate the problem on the spot, the vehicle crew has to come out sometime.
That is simultaneously the coolest, gayest, inspirational yet disappointing picture I have ever seen.
I will say it isn’t a real revolution until you see a guy buck ass naked wearing War paint and chucking molotov cocktails at people.
I always use that as a litmus.
Or wearing life preservers, carying weird shit like plastic flamingos a la Liberia...
Don't worry, it's not real Socialism.
Yup! You can vote your way into socialism, but you'll have to shoot your way out of what ever the F it morphs into. It's completely moot point when you're being run over by APC and throwing rocks in return.
MSNBC reporter who is reporting on Venezuela accidentally makes the case for the 2nd Amendment. He will probably be sent off to a re-education camp.
https://freebeacon.com/issues/msnbc-report-on-venezuela-makes-case-for-second-amendment/
MSNBC reporter who is reporting on Venezuela accidentally makes the case for the 2nd Amendment. He will probably be sent off to a re-education camp.
https://freebeacon.com/issues/msnbc-report-on-venezuela-makes-case-for-second-amendment/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=99&v=MZnzvUIEzGQ
I will say it isn’t a real revolution until you see a guy buck ass naked wearing War paint and chucking molotov cocktails at people.
I always use that as a litmus.
This is what a revolution looks like:
https://i.imgur.com/Ndod4QB.jpg
This is what a revolution looks like:
https://i.imgur.com/Ndod4QB.jpg
This is my war face.
57082
Sorry, couldn’t resist.
BoringGuy45
05-01-19, 11:22
This is my war face.
57082
Sorry, couldn’t resist.
You don't scare me! Work on it!
Ned Christiansen
05-01-19, 12:37
There is only one suitable fate for the leader of a country who brings in foreign troops to subjugate his own people because he knows his own armed forces will be loyal for only so long (as long, well, as long as the bribes hold out and the threats keep working).
It's not exile, it's not prison, but it's also not an informal execution after being beaten and dragged through the streets. It is a brief but very high-profile trial and execution.
You would think the people of Cuba and Russia would be protesting on behalf of the Venezuelan people and making noise about getting their soldiers out of there, where they hve no business propping up an illegitimate, cruel dictator whose position is completely untenable. But oops, can't do that in those countries.....
One part of the final moments could well be Venezuelan citizens and soldiers being mowed down by these foreign troops. Of course I don't wish for that but there might be some lessons learned from it.
There is only one suitable fate for the leader of a country who brings in foreign troops to subjugate his own people because he knows his own armed forces will be loyal for only so long (as long, well, as long as the bribes hold out and the threats keep working).
It's not exile, it's not prison, but it's also not an informal execution after being beaten and dragged through the streets. It is a brief but very high-profile trial and execution.
You would think the people of Cuba and Russia would be protesting on behalf of the Venezuelan people and making noise about getting their soldiers out of there, where they hve no business propping up an illegitimate, cruel dictator whose position is completely untenable. But oops, can't do that in those countries.....
One part of the final moments could well be Venezuelan citizens and soldiers being mowed down by these foreign troops. Of course I don't wish for that but there might be some lessons learned from it.
Would that be the green light for US intervention at that point? I suspect with proof of that via vid etc, the US would have both regional and international support at that point for intervention, for better or worse. I have mixed feeling on that, but my position all along has been, allowing Iran, China, and Cuba to take over a country in our own backyard, while getting into conflicts in places like Syria, makes little sense from a NS POV.
Would that be the green light for US intervention at that point?
They got the government they asked for. If we get involved, we'll be blamed for everything wrong. They need to wallow in the mess they've made for a while, while the world watches.
They got the government they asked for. If we get involved, we'll be blamed for everything wrong. They need to wallow in the mess they've made for a while, while the world watches.
If it comes to the point there are foreign troops, troops from countries known to be hostile to the US, gunning down local mil and civilians to maintain the drug lord ex bus driver, in our backyard, I do not see the US sitting on the side lines and not act at that juncture. An Iranian base, or a Chinese base, or a Cuban base, in Venezuela, is not OK.
Averageman
05-01-19, 14:22
They got the government they asked for. If we get involved, we'll be blamed for everything wrong. They need to wallow in the mess they've made for a while, while the world watches.
If it comes to the point there are foreign troops, troops from countries known to be hostile to the US, gunning down local mil and civilians to maintain the drug lord ex bus driver, in our backyard, I do not see the US sitting on the side lines and not act at that juncture. An Iranian base, or a Chinese base, or a Cuban base, in Venezuela, is not OK.
You simply cannot leave a vacuum, it's too big an opportunity to create a bigger stronger version of Cuba. There are too many bad actors with their eye on Venezuela as the prize.
I'm not saying we need to "Nation Build", but we do have to provide a safety net for these guys.
You simply cannot leave a vacuum, it's too big an opportunity to create a bigger stronger version of Cuba. There are too many bad actors with their eye on Venezuela as the prize.
I'm not saying we need to "Nation Build", but we do have to provide a safety net for these guys.
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/picture_2-tfb.png
ramairthree
05-01-19, 14:30
You either got to war and clean house, something we have not done in several decades,
Or you go in, play, leave, leaving a shit sandwich,
Or you go in, play, and occupy forever or you leave a shit sandwich.
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/picture_2-tfb.png
They need a Liberator that looks a lot more like an AR with a lot of ammo, but it's a start.
They need a Liberator that looks a lot more like an AR with a lot of ammo, but it's a start.
Maybe load a plane up with 9mm Hi-Points, and 9mm Hi-Point carbines, each with a couple of loaded mags, and drop them over the poor neighborhoods of Caracas.. The locals interested in change, will take it from there. They'll work good enough..
Maybe load a plane up with 9mm Hi-Points, and 9mm Hi-Point carbines, each with a couple of loaded mags, and drop them over the poor neighborhoods of Caracas.. The locals interested in change, will take it from there. They'll work good enough..
Better than throwing rocks at least.
They need a Liberator that looks a lot more like an AR with a lot of ammo, but it's a start.
The point of the liberator was to stick it in the back of a lone trooper, pull trigger and take his rifle and ammo. Several people do that then you have enough rifles to ambush a lone vehicle, a checkpoint, or a small patrol. Build from there. Let Maduro indirectly supply the protesters with guns.
Ned Christiansen
05-01-19, 16:50
Trading up. Definitely time for that.
" I will fight no more, forever "
Let's bring home our troops from the 150 + countries where they are now , round up and deport the 40+ million
illegals in our country, and serve our country and our people for once.
Given the level of corruption down there venezuelan votes are worth only slightly more than a north koreans. As usual the whole situation has little to do with the populace and more to do with who's in power. How many people die sorting that out only matters if it casts a negative image on those struggling for power. And of course the countries that intervene will do their part via their state run media/propaganda/news.
I get the modern-day application of the Monroe Doctrine. That said, this isn't the Sandinistas in 1985 fighting the Contras. Sure, Venezuela is a lefty regime, and Maduro isn't any better than that POS Chavez. However, communism is really only alive and well in China and North Korea (maybe SE Asia too). Yep, the ChiComs are nosing into Venezuela, so f**k them. The Russkies aren't technically commies anymore, mostly nationalists who seek to stick it in our asses whenever possible (and we should be sure to return the favor whenever possible).
I just sincerely hope we do NOT commit boots on the ground or even airstrikes into the shit-show known as Venezuela.
Maybe I'm mellowing in my old age? I just can't see the upside to armed U.S. intervention. Supply weapons to the opposition? Sure, we're very adept at that, go for it. Keep it there though.
Lotsa Russians and Chinese in Venezuela...
That is simultaneously the coolest, gayest, inspirational yet disappointing picture I have ever seen.
I will say it isn’t a real revolution until you see a guy buck ass naked wearing War paint and chucking molotov cocktails at people.
I always use that as a litmus.
The first disappointment that I saw was him using the, what seems to be a suppressor, as a rest. He has that AFG to use as a barricade rest, and if these guys win, Magpul should run with that pic.
I saw a pic today of a shirtless dude chunking rocks, and thought of you, for some reason. I don’t recall seeing any war paint, but here I am... telling you, confused, and not wanting to talk anymore about it.
vicious_cb
05-01-19, 20:19
Looks like someone watched the magpul dynamics DVD. Keeping in the workspace reload while our hero assistant gunner provides (moral) support. Also note the SOCINT (social media intelligence) member tweets out the enemy positions.
https://sun9-27.userapi.com/c850528/v850528159/112f29/6pz_GWTchhY.jpg
If we help foment a civil war there, everybody should be prepared for an influx of immigrants like we've never seen before. Potentially millions of Venezuelans, and maybe just as many folks who will claim to be. Our border staff won't be able to tell which ones are genuine asylum seekers and which are not, and guess what.... It'll be no secret what the magic words are. So if you're not super into illegal immigration from south of the border, having major stuff go down in Venezuela is gonna make a real mess up here when the caravans arrive.
Looks like someone watched the magpul dynamics DVD. Keeping in the workspace while our hero assistant gunner provides (moral) support. Also note the SOCINT (social media intelligence) member tweets out the enemy positions.
https://sun9-27.userapi.com/c850528/v850528159/112f29/6pz_GWTchhY.jpg
These guys don't look like they've been there and done that. Their boots and uniforms look too clean and new.
Ned Christiansen
05-01-19, 21:03
That is a weird rifle to find in that locale. 5.7, ejects empties into a clear ETS magazine shell...? I've seen this conversion somewhere but essentially paid it no mind.
Business_Casual
05-01-19, 21:18
Lotsa Russians and Chinese in Venezuela...
The Army of god has an interesting presence there as well.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/02/09/hezbollah-is-in-venezuela-to-stay/
Does that sharpen the image for you at all?
BoringGuy45
05-01-19, 21:47
The Army of god has an interesting presence there as well.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/02/09/hezbollah-is-in-venezuela-to-stay/
Does that sharpen the image for you at all?
I have to wonder if Iran would be so bold as to try to deploy troops to support Hezbollah cells or the Maduro government. In the past, it would be suicide for them to defy the Monroe Doctrine, but today, I don't see the Democrats declaring war or even authorizing Trump to use military force even if foreign troops landed on U.S. soil. And I'm not even exaggerating.
Will any on the fence about the 2nd Amendment see the need? Any converts? Doubt it.
We have our own oil, let them reap what they’ve sown.
Will any on the fence about the 2nd Amendment see the need? Any converts? Doubt it.
We have our own oil, let them reap what they’ve sown.Let them..
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
I wish the coup well. I hope to see footage of socialist government functionaries being shot in the streets, set on fire, or just torn apart by the crowds.
But I do *not* want the US meddling in this and definitely not sending troops. We need to do a better job of staying out of regional conflicts that aren't our concern.
if we sit around do nothing we will get blamed by the left for not helping ?
if we go in and help we will get blamed by the left for intervening ?
all bad things that happen Trump and conservatives will be blamed since they are the racist supremacist nazis that cause all problems in the world and we really need to fear global warming and using the correct term for freaks and protecting our safe spaces making sure we spread the joy of multiculturalism around the globe since we really need to be more like Europe or NZ and pass common sense gun laws or just flat out take them away !
I say we take a few plane full of lefties and let them go help out no weapons of course just some strong action verbs and maybe some safe space tape kinda like police line tape but something words can't cross !!!
if we sit around do nothing we will get blamed by the left for not helping ?
if we go in and help we will get blamed by the left for intervening ?
If those are the two options, we might as well pick the one that keeps us out of a messy and pointless entanglement in a pointless country.
Although I'm hearing the coup attempt is faltering now, which is unfortunate. But this is Venezuela's fight, not the US's.
Gonna need something a little more than tricked out BCMs to deal with that.
I agree, but having a firearm would be better than fighting with rocks and sharp sticks.
" I will fight no more, forever "
Let's bring home our troops from the 150 + countries where they are now , round up and deport the 40+ million
illegals in our country, and serve our country and our people for once.
I wish the coup well. I hope to see footage of socialist government functionaries being shot in the streets, set on fire, or just torn apart by the crowds.
But I do *not* want the US meddling in this and definitely not sending troops. We need to do a better job of staying out of regional conflicts that aren't our concern.
I can really get behind these two posts.
Ned Christiansen
05-02-19, 10:00
I don't want our guys down there breaking the logjam. I don't want the Russians to succeed in their bid for influence but they're going to lose this either way so let it happen without any direct exchanges between them and us. They'll F it up one way or the other. If they go heavy handed that's going to hurt them and yet it's what they do.... they don't seem able to do these things with cleverness. For Christ's sake they can't even get a Venezuelan Kalashnikov plant running, it's years behind schedule. The corruption of both Russian contractors and Venezuelan officials has made it as if they were building the place on a giant sink hole.
I have a personal interest in seeing Venezuela get back up and running. I have people in and from Venezuela and I've heard some of them say previously, regarding Cuba and more recently, Syria, "let them fix their own problems, it's their country and their fight". To my surprise most of them have recently said of Venezuela, "send in American troops". I hope we don't. However things settle, they will be more legit if Venezuelans pull it off themselves. On the other hand from the humanitarian side it's very tempting. But now, near the end, would not be the time anyway. Murder-o will crumble and fall soon enough without us.
I wish Guaido (and now with Lopez, that is huge. But for timing, Lopez would have been the one) would publicly address the Russians: Get out, let us settle this, the whole world can see the country is against this man. Don't embarrass yourselves by standing on the wrong side of the story. Get out. Don't worry, you'll get your money back, in fact we are your only hope of that, but only if you leave now. If you don't leave now, by the will of the Venezuelan people, you are invaders. Every moment you stay, you risk situations where your troops will slaughter Venezuelans. This will not change the outcome-- Maduro will still fall-- but you will be war criminals.
PS, that footage of the APC running over protesters? Please remove that from "Crazy Russian Drivers".
To Cuba: The same. Your stubbornness and continued meddling, spreading your revolution with "Internationalism", has drained your country. Here is a golden opportunity to do the right thing and it's a no-brainer, you don't get less points for doing it just because it's so obvious: get out of Venezuela. Do it quietly if you choose, pretend you were never there if you choose, but get out. Or get out and say you think it was the best thing for Venezuela, peace and liberty, and put a little shine on your reputation. If you do this, you are our friends and we will be glad to do business with you. We'd love to have you as a PSVSA (oil) customer and we'll even extend and continue "preferred customer" pricing. Help us rebuild and we will help you rejoin the world. If you don't get out, you are an invading mercenary force and when you're gone, we will turn our back on you like the rest of the world has. You will have pissed away one of your best potential benefactors.
(Edited to add) To members of the Venezuela military: We have asked you to do the right thing: leave the regime that has made our country into a death camp. Come with us and end this! We welcome your help, we need your help. Whatever motivates you to support this man, be it promises or threats, will soon be gone. If you do not answer our call, after it's over you cannot be seen in the same light as those who broke free to help. At that point you can only be seen as a remnant of the dictatorship, an unrepentant minion, who had no love for your country and your brothers, or, for that matter, humanity. At that point you can only be seen as a criminal. Come now, and be absolved. Stay, and very soon there will be consequences.
Just spit balling but one has to think we’re the ones who were stoking the coals of this
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Just spit balling but one has to think we’re the ones who were stoking the coals of this
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I am in agreement.
Make America Great Again has turned into Peace Corps With Guns and Be the World’s Homeless Shelter
It’s like the 80s without the good music.
If those are the two options, we might as well pick the one that keeps us out of a messy and pointless entanglement in a pointless country.
Although I'm hearing the coup attempt is faltering now, which is unfortunate. But this is Venezuela's fight, not the US's.
Humanitarian issues aside, regional stability issues aside, having China, Russia, Cuba, and Hezbollah planting their flags in our back yard aside and further influencing the region aside, the potential of a massive humanitarian crises aside, a country with the largest oil reserves in the world, is anything but a pointless country to us and our NS. We should never have stuck our noses into Syria as an example of places we needn't be and only made it go from bad to worse. I'm not saying I have the answers or going in guns blazing is what should be done, but it does seem to me that's not the place to conclude it's not our concern either. It is.
I don't want our guys down there breaking the logjam. I don't want the Russians to succeed in their bid for influence but they're going to lose this either way so let it happen without any direct exchanges between them and us. They'll F it up one way or they other. If they go heavy handed that's going to hurt them and yet it's what they do.... they don't seem able to do these things with cleverness. For Christ's sake they can't even get a Venezuelan Kalashnikov plant running, it's years behind schedule. The corruption of both Russian contractors and Venezuelan officials has made it as if they were building the place on a giant sink hole.
I have a personal interest in seeing Venezuela get back up and running. I have people in and from Venezuela and I've heard some of them say previously, regarding Cuba and more recently, Syria, "let them fix their own problems, it's their country and their fight". To my surprise most of them have recently said of Venezuela, "send in American troops". I hope we don't. However things settle, they will be more legit if Venezuelans pull it off themselves. On the other hand from the humanitarian side it's very tempting. But now, near the end, would not be the time anyway. Murder-o will crumble and fall soon enough without us.
I wish Guaido (and now with Lopez, that is huge. But for timing, Lopez would have been the one) would publicly address the Russians: Get out, let us settle this, the whole world can see the country is against this man. Don't embarrass yourselves by standing on the wrong side of the story. Get out. Don't worry, you'll get your money back, in fact we are your only hope of that, but only if you leave now. If you don't leave now, by the will of the Venezuelan people, you are invaders. Every moment you stay, you risk situations where your troops will slaughter Venezuelans. This will not change the outcome-- Maduro will still fall-- but you will be war criminals.
PS, that footage of the APC running over protesters? Please remove that from "Crazy Russian Drivers".
To Cuba: The same. Your stubbornness and continued meddling, spreading your revolution with "Internationalism", has drained your country. Here is a golden opportunity to do the right thing and it's a no-brainer, you don't get less points for doing it just because it's so obvious: get out of Venezuela. Do it quietly if you choose, pretend you were never there if you choose, but get out. Or get out and say you think it was the best thing for Venezuela, peace and liberty, and put a little shine on your reputation. If you do this, you are our friends and we will be glad to do business with you. We'd love to have you as a PSVSA (oil) customer and we'll even extend and continue "preferred customer" pricing. Help us rebuild and we will help you rejoin the world. If you don't get out, you are an invading mercenary force and when you're gone, we will turn our back on you like the rest of the world has. You will have pissed away one of your best potential benefactors.
All the Venezuelans I know or speak with have said that at this point, they'd welcome US military intervention and claim that's how vast majority of the population feel also, not unlike most of the Panamanians at the time other than a small % of thugs who were getting rich and such. I don't know what the answer is, and with our prior history in the region, stuck between a rock and a hard place with this one in many respects.
The leftists in our own government already blame the Venezuelan situation on the U.S. If we would just support the Maduro government and do whatever he asks, then they wouldn't be in this mess. :rolleyes:
I get that all the bad people are supporting Maduro's continued stranglehold on Venezuela, but it's still not on us to invade and force a regime change. It only reinforces the worldview of U.S. imperialism and the juice just isn't worth the squeeze. :(
The Venezuelan people lost their freedom when they surrendered their firearms to Chavez, there is a lesson in there somewhere.
The leftists in our own government already blame the Venezuelan situation on the U.S. If we would just support the Maduro government and do whatever he asks, then they wouldn't be in this mess. :rolleyes:
I get that all the bad people are supporting Maduro's continued stranglehold on Venezuela, but it's still not on us to invade and force a regime change. It only reinforces the worldview of U.S. imperialism and the juice just isn't worth the squeeze. :(
I could'nt agree more..Like it or not, the people of Venezuela got themselves into this mess, and it's up to them to get themselves out..
I could'nt agree more..Like it or not, the people of Venezuela got themselves into this mess, and it's up to them to get themselves out..
We kinda had that very attitude prior to WWII, and that showed us rather clearly, "it's not our problem cuz it's happening over there" and isolationism often = it's only that much worse when you have to deal with it. Many felt WWII would have ended far sooner with less death and destruction all around had we entered far sooner. Something between world police we are today and pre WWII isolationism seems where we need to go. Do we have a legit NS security concern with Venezuela? Yes we do.
A grim and dark part of me hopes the Ivans and Red Chinese get Vietnamed over this somehow.
Like it becomes a money pit. Bodies start coming home draped in flags. It would be expensive. Intercontinental ventures cost money.
And no, I don’t think a single American dollar or life needs to be spent there. And no, we don’t need to grant them refugee status. Lotsa room in China and Russia however.
I think the world can use some more diversity in their neighborhoods.
I’m personally sick of the US playing captain save a ho for the world.
Until we have a guaranteed home of our own; the whole world is free to sit and spin.
No more guns, no more money, no more soldiers, no more anything.
We need to take care of ourselves first. We have our own problems.
My 2020 slogan is “If you got Third World Problems, I feel bad for you son. We got 99 problems and you ain’t one”
For me the main issue with military use is long term entanglement, which seems to indicate lack of clear objective or doing it wrong. Unfortunately, whatever the original objective and methods, the State Dept seems FUBAR up any situation. Then politicians get bright bulb ideas what else could be done and and before you know it our troops have been fighting and dying for 10 years and the minute we leave it will be right back to the original deplorable condition.
If we were to get involved it should be at the invite, no arm twisting, of the opposition leader who appears to have good popular support, there is commitment to have free and fair elections within three years, free press; and militarily we go in and crush Maduro forces in three months, with new govt responsible for follow up policing and we provide assistance (govt grant not central bank loans) for rebuilding civic infrastructure and training military if requested. And we let any other foreign powers know that any interference will be absolutely crushed and we will go into any neighboring country that harbors foreign army or Maduro holdouts.
I would support that but I have .00001% faith our State Dept and politicians would not FUBR it within four months like Afghanistan.
We kinda had that very attitude prior to WWII, and that showed us rather clearly, "it's not our problem cuz it's happening over there" and isolationism often = it's only that much worse when you have to deal with it. Many felt WWII would have ended far sooner with less death and destruction all around had we entered far sooner. Something between world police we are today and pre WWII isolationism seems where we need to go. Do we have a legit NS security concern with Venezuela? Yes we do.
Was World War II really worth it?
What about World War I?
We are still paying for it with literal money and for what? A clean conscience?
I’m ready for undisturbed isolation. None of these people are ever grateful.
We allied with skeevy nations to take out other skeevy nations. We should have never had Roosevelt be a dictator. We should have never assassinated Patton and we probably should have gone to Moscow and Beijing and called for full disarmament of all of Europe. Saved a couple extra A Bombs.
Until I get to have a home of my own; I have no sympathy for anyone else.
And someone take that God damn plaque off the statue of Liberty and replace it with one that says “Eff off, we’re full!”
ETA I furthermore consider Cuba to have an illegitimate government. They should surrender or get carpet bombed and replaced with Puerto Ricans.
We kinda had that very attitude prior to WWII, and that showed us rather clearly, "it's not our problem cuz it's happening over there" and isolationism often = it's only that much worse when you have to deal with it. Many felt WWII would have ended far sooner with less death and destruction all around had we entered far sooner. Something between world police we are today and pre WWII isolationism seems where we need to go. Do we have a legit NS security concern with Venezuela? Yes we do.
I'm good with sending aid for the people, provided that's who gets it, But, the last thing I want to see is our troops going in,(and frankly, I think at some point that just might happen) the last thing this country needs is another long term quaigmire like A- stan...
I'm good with sending aid for the people, provided that's who gets it, But, the last thing I want to see is our troops going in,(and frankly, I think at some point that just might happen) the last thing this country needs is another long term quaigmire like A- stan..
It would be way more like Panama than anything close to A- stan. That's the closest comparison we have and it's a pretty good one actually. I'm sorta playing devils advocate here in this, but I also don't feel like some get the bigger picture and genuine threat to NS it potentially represents, just as having Noriega have the ability to control the canal was something we could allow. Anyone thinks having Hezbollah in our back yard, and the rest controlling the largest oil reserves on the planet does not have a very high likelihood of being a serious NS threat, is kidding themselves my my estimation.
Over half of Venezuela is tropical rainforest (i.e. jungle). Where do you think any remnants of Maduro's regime will hide, and need to be hunted down in, if we use boots-on-the-ground to overthrow him?
If it needed to be done then so be it, I just don't see the need.
It would be way more like Panama than anything close to A- stan. That's the closest comparison we have and it's a pretty good one actually. I'm sorta playing devils advocate here in this, but I also don't feel like some get the bigger picture and genuine threat to NS it potentially represents, just as having Noriega have the ability to control the canal was something we could allow. Anyone thinks having Hezbollah in our back yard, and the rest controlling the largest oil reserves on the planet does not have a very high likelihood of being a serious NS threat, is kidding themselves my my estimation.
Oh, I get it, I'm just sick and tired of endless war, and I can't get too excited at the prospect of the U.S. sending troops in to clean out this rats nest..Besides, like a few others have pointed out, we've got enough problems in our own country, As far as Hezbollah in our backyard, hell, they're already here or coming, They can read maps too, and they know all they need to do is slip across the ditch called The Rio Grande, and they're in...
Ned Christiansen
05-02-19, 19:53
I'll bet whoever wrote the script for Avatar is having a big fat cigar right now and patting himself on the back, and deservedly so. Anyone remember that line?
Venezuelans will sort it without us. Their pendulum is about to start swinging the other way..... they have a long history of getting rid of corrupt despots..... unfortunately they also get a lot of "next" incompetents, too. For some reason this cycle is taking longer.
I'm in favor of the US helping in non-lethal ways before and after regime change. Specifically excluding secret squirrel stuff. Food, medicine, infrastructure rebuilding, money (loans).
My impression of Guaido and Lopez, both are good guys. I'm really glad Lopez joined in.
A grim and dark part of me hopes the Ivans and Red Chinese get Vietnamed over this somehow.
Like it becomes a money pit. Bodies start coming home draped in flags. It would be expensive. Intercontinental ventures cost money.
And no, I don’t think a single American dollar or life needs to be spent there. And no, we don’t need to grant them refugee status. Lotsa room in China and Russia however.
I think the world can use some more diversity in their neighborhoods.
I’m personally sick of the US playing captain save a ho for the world.
Until we have a guaranteed home of our own; the whole world is free to sit and spin.
No more guns, no more money, no more soldiers, no more anything.
We need to take care of ourselves first. We have our own problems.
My 2020 slogan is “If you got Third World Problems, I feel bad for you son. We got 99 problems and you ain’t one”
That’s such a good song. Hugo nailed it!
If those are the two options, we might as well pick the one that keeps us out of a messy and pointless entanglement in a pointless country.
Although I'm hearing the coup attempt is faltering now, which is unfortunate. But this is Venezuela's fight, not the US's.
YUP :)
Grand58742
05-03-19, 02:16
We kinda had that very attitude prior to WWII, and that showed us rather clearly, "it's not our problem cuz it's happening over there" and isolationism often = it's only that much worse when you have to deal with it. Many felt WWII would have ended far sooner with less death and destruction all around had we entered far sooner. Something between world police we are today and pre WWII isolationism seems where we need to go. Do we have a legit NS security concern with Venezuela? Yes we do.
Here's my problem. We would have no problem going in and decimating anyone who stood in our path. Logistically speaking, it is in our "backyard" and would be quite easy to support. We have plenty of nations, including a majority of the OAS and Europe, that would support such actions if we took them. Venezuela would be an easy target.
However, I'm haunted by the ghosts of Iraq and Afghanistan at the moment as we, as a nation and militarily, have no problem winning wars. But winning the peace somehow eludes us after we get involved. Furthermore, I have no faith in our government as a whole to plot a course the way the Marshall Plan was fomented and let Venezuelans rebuild Venezuela. There are too many "feel good" liberals at all levels of government that think "government is best and government knows what you need" that would assert their own personal opinions on how it should be run and rebuilt and those silly Venezuelans just don't know what they are doing. I just don't trust our government to get the job done. I trust our military to defeat any enemy, but I have zero trust in our government to win the peace afterwards.
You cite Panama as a potential outcome to a conflict in Venezuela. I think we've moved too far left for us to just go in, Hulk smash whatever gets in our way and allow the people of that nation to chart their own destiny. With our assistance if they request it, but allowing them the ability to determine their own path in the aftermath. West Germany after WWII should be our model of how to let a country rebuild and become stronger with our assistance rather than by us telling them exactly what they should do. But we'll never do that again.
We kinda had that very attitude prior to WWII, and that showed us rather clearly, "it's not our problem cuz it's happening over there" and isolationism often = it's only that much worse when you have to deal with it. Many felt WWII would have ended far sooner with less death and destruction all around had we entered far sooner. Something between world police we are today and pre WWII isolationism seems where we need to go. Do we have a legit NS security concern with Venezuela? Yes we do.
I don't know that we were quite as isolationist before WWII as we are lead to believe. Check out Smedley Butlers stuff along with wiki entries on U.S. base building/expansion in the 1930's. Not to mention getting tangled in foreign affairs was mentioned by founders as being the fast track to losing everything here and whether they meant to keep it that way or not, they did seem to be accurate.
Here's my problem. We would have no problem going in and decimating anyone who stood in our path. Logistically speaking, it is in our "backyard" and would be quite easy to support. We have plenty of nations, including a majority of the OAS and Europe, that would support such actions if we took them. Venezuela would be an easy target.
However, I'm haunted by the ghosts of Iraq and Afghanistan at the moment as we, as a nation and militarily, have no problem winning wars. But winning the peace somehow eludes us after we get involved. Furthermore, I have no faith in our government as a whole to plot a course the way the Marshall Plan was fomented and let Venezuelans rebuild Venezuela. There are too many "feel good" liberals at all levels of government that think "government is best and government knows what you need" that would assert their own personal opinions on how it should be run and rebuilt and those silly Venezuelans just don't know what they are doing. I just don't trust our government to get the job done. I trust our military to defeat any enemy, but I have zero trust in our government to win the peace afterwards.
You cite Panama as a potential outcome to a conflict in Venezuela. I think we've moved too far left for us to just go in, Hulk smash whatever gets in our way and allow the people of that nation to chart their own destiny. With our assistance if they request it, but allowing them the ability to determine their own path in the aftermath. West Germany after WWII should be our model of how to let a country rebuild and become stronger with our assistance rather than by us telling them exactly what they should do. But we'll never do that again.
Great post.
Whether or not people ascribe to a document put out an 1823 (Monroe Doctrine) determines whether or not it's in our interest to do anything. Is a Maduro regime a threat to the US? Maybe. Just the destability and potential mucking up oil might be enough to make it in our interest to do something. But as has been said elsewhere on here, whenever we do something like that we get drawn into an event that is hard to get out off.
sundance435
05-03-19, 09:56
I don't know that we were quite as isolationist before WWII as we are lead to believe. Check out Smedley Butlers stuff along with wiki entries on U.S. base building/expansion in the 1930's. Not to mention getting tangled in foreign affairs was mentioned by founders as being the fast track to losing everything here and whether they meant to keep it that way or not, they did seem to be accurate.
That's Monroe Doctrine stuff, along with a good bit of crony-capitalism, though. I wouldn't call that "interventionist" in the sense that those "small wars" were in our own backyard. That's different to me, at least in principle. From 1850-1930's, our interventions were almost all in furtherance of capitalism. I don't buy for a minute that Iraq was about oil and all of our other interventions have largely been based on humanitarian grounds.
Ned Christiansen
05-03-19, 10:26
These posts have me thinking about previous forays by the US into that region, predating but including Panama, and the "why's", and could those "why's" at all be painted as humanitarian. I think the case for it being purely, or at least mostly, humanitarian in Venezuela could be made and supported in the region. "It's all about the oil" would be and is being bleated. And.... I don't think that's completely incorrect and I also don't think there's a damned thing wrong with it, because without oil sales, Venezuela can't get back on its feet. In fact, it's the linchpin of recovery. And the US has long, long been their biggest oil customer, taking as I recall about 80% of their production; and, again going by memory and these figures are at least a decade old but Venezuelan oil was about 20% of our, either, consumption or imports. So yes, the oil thing might be part of it, but it's not like that's a new thing and it sure as hell is not like we would go in guns blazing and just take all the oil-- when did that ever happen? We buy it, yes. We like to have supply lines secure, yes. But we pay for it. It's not like we have ever smelled weakness in an OPEC country and gone in and just make the oilfields ours "from now on" by force, and they get nothing.
So, my thoughts having been turned to Nicaragua, I'm now thinking to myself, kinda surprising there is not a contingent of Nicaraguans in the mix, helping MaBurro out.
That's Monroe Doctrine stuff, along with a good bit of crony-capitalism, though. I wouldn't call that "interventionist" in the sense that those "small wars" were in our own backyard. That's different to me, at least in principle. From 1850-1930's, our interventions were almost all in furtherance of capitalism. I don't buy for a minute that Iraq was about oil and all of our other interventions have largely been based on humanitarian grounds.
Japan wasn't in our backyard.
Just a couple that came to mind from Smedley Butler in 1935:
"Back in 1904, when Russia and Japan fought, we kicked out our old friends the Russians and backed Japan. Then our very generous international bankers were financing Japan. Now the trend is to poison us against the Japanese. What does the "open door" policy to China mean to us? Our trade with China is about $90,000,000 a year. Or the Philippine Islands? We have spent about $600,000,000 in the Philippines in thirty-five years and we (our bankers and industrialists and speculators) have private investments there of less than $200,000,000.
Then, to save that China trade of about $90,000,000, or to protect these private investments of less than $200,000,000 in the Philippines, we would be all stirred up to hate Japan and go to war -- a war that might well cost us tens of billions of dollars, hundreds of thousands of lives of Americans, and many more hundreds of thousands of physically maimed and mentally unbalanced men."
"The Pacific is a great big ocean. We have a tremendous coastline on the Pacific. Will the maneuvers be off the coast, two or three hundred miles? Oh, no. The maneuvers will be two thousand, yes, perhaps even thirty-five hundred miles, off the coast.
The Japanese, a proud people, of course will be pleased beyond expression to see the united States fleet so close to Nippon's shores. Even as pleased as would be the residents of California were they to dimly discern through the morning mist, the Japanese fleet playing at war games off Los Angeles."
So, my thoughts having been turned to Nicaragua, I'm now thinking to myself, kinda surprising there is not a contingent of Nicaraguans in the mix, helping MaBurro out.
Ortega is indeed back in power after his long hiatus, but I don't think the Sandinistas are as hard-nosed commies as they once were (back in the Contra days). Sure, they're still socialists, but the military and $$$ backing of the Soviet Union is no mas. I would speculate that Ortega learned from being beaten by Chamorro, despite the devastating effects of the Contra war being fresh in the minds of the people at the time, that perhaps a less hardline approach works better when governing.
I might add (as it could be relevant to Venezuela in the near future) that proxy wars can indeed have the desired effect without committing U.S. troops. The Contras eventually succeeded in a change of government in Nicaragua, albeit with a rather ruthless reputation at times. Money spent? Sure, but to me our blood is more important. Back the Venezuelan opposition with weapons and $$$ if necessary but keep our guys out of it.
Coverage on the uprising is practically none. Like I said a few days ago, it lost steam and now looks like Maduro is going to survive.
Coverage on the uprising is practically none. Like I said a few days ago, it lost steam and now looks like Maduro is going to survive.
I would think that disarming and starving the populace would limit their ability to uprise and overthrow.
Motivation for the US to use force? How about black gold or Texas Tea? Whatever your preference.
Some nasty realities starting to show themselves as the government gets ever more desperate to maintain control:
GENEVA — Venezuelan special forces have carried out thousands of extrajudicial killings in the past 18 months and then manipulated crime scenes to make it look as if the victims had been resisting arrest, the United Nations said on Thursday in a report detailing wide-ranging government abuses targeting political opponents.
Special Action Forces described by witnesses as “death squads” killed 5,287 people in 2018 and another 1,569 by mid-May of this year, in what are officially termed by the Venezuelan government “Operations for the Liberation of the People,” United Nations investigators reported.
Laying out a detailed description of a lawless system of oppression, the report says the actual number of deaths could be much higher. It cites accounts by independent groups who report more than 9,000 killings for “resistance to authority” over the same period.
“There are reasonable grounds to believe that many of these killings constitute extrajudicial executions committed by the security forces,” the investigators said.
Cont:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/04/world/americas/venezuela-police-abuses.html?
Nobody cares..
I don't care....not fighting for it.
They need to do it themselves..
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Nobody cares..
I don't care....not fighting for it.
They need to do it themselves..
Don't agree. Lots of people care and should. Totally different issue to any military intervention however. Why "we" care what's happening in Syria but not what's happening right in our AO is the mystery to me. As far as Venezuela, Russia, China and Iran/Hezbollah are there, and it's the largest oil reserve on the planet, so it's not just some banana republic gone bad we should, or can afford to, ignore as a legit NS issue.
We have a shit history of intervention dude..in Latin America.
All day they talk of Chili and other places we backed in coups and watch all the shit on their propaganda TV specials.
Operation condor.
Trust me I want it..but it's an uphill battle.
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We have a shit history of intervention dude..in Latin America.
All day they talk of Chili and other places we backed in coups and watch all the shit on their propaganda TV specials.
Operation condor.
Trust me I want it..but it's an uphill battle.
Don't disagree with any of that, but that's different from not caring. We absolutely should care what happens in that country. Due to our history, we are stuck between a bit of a rock and a had place. I will say, vast majority of Panamanians I have spoke to were grateful for what the US did, and most Venezuelans I speak to are very much in favor of US intervention at this point. I'm not using that as reason/justification for mil intervention, but just FYI, not as one sided some may think in terms of how people view the US in the region. Also, Colombians generally very pro US and know their improvements in the country due in large part, to the massive US assistance.
As even the idiots at the UN are starting pay attention to what's happening in Venezuela, perhaps a UN mandate that if the drug selling bus driver does not leave, a multi national force that would be approved.
Then it's not "US Imperialism" but sold as a humanitarian mission to install the rightful leader, yada yada.
I think Iran having a strong hold in our back yard is a very bad idea that will spread Islamic terrorism in the region (already happening BTW...) and could be a serious problem in the future.
Our track record not so great in the ME either as far as regional opinions of the US, yet we went to Syria.
I'm sorry....as someone that came back from the kitty litterbox with less hearing and less eyesight and some added shrapnel for a cherry on top..
Skeptical..on anything.
If UN mandated with 150 countries supporting it and all of Latin America going for it.yeah
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Care? Yes. Willing to send a single US troop to intervene? Absolutely not. Everything we try to do in SA winds up turning to shit. Even with the best of intentions, we'd wind up wearing more of it than we cleaned up. :(
I'm sorry....as someone that came back from the kitty litterbox with less hearing and less eyesight and some added shrapnel for a cherry on top..
Skeptical..on anything.
If UN mandated with 150 countries supporting it and all of Latin America going for it.yeah
Can't blame for the skepticism on that one!
People need to experience it themselves in order to appreciate true freedom and liberty.
I live in Hungary part time as my dad is Hungarian.
There are people who are nostalgic for communism and they don't give a crap of the people who suffered , who were tortured, who died under it.
They just remember the good times.
That's Venezuela....
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People need to experience it themselves in order to appreciate true freedom and liberty.
I live in Hungary part time as my dad is Hungarian.
There are people who are nostalgic for communism and they don't give a crap of the people who suffered , who were tortured, who died under it.
They just remember the good times.
That's Venezuela....
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"Good times" under communism...what a concept. Those folks must have a different idea of what constitutes a "good time" than most of us here.
Ask your neighbor about that when you got no worries in the world and while you have a shitty job and shitty house.
So does your neighbor because you are all miserable..except the people in power
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Thread bump! While we never had our eye on Venezuela as we should, we have all but forgotten the place recently. I continue to think that's a huge mistake that will bite us in the a$$, figuratively and literally. We push our influence and agenda around the world, Russia attempts to the same chit all the time in the ME, and our own back yard.
Venezuela: Russians, Chinese, and Iranians there running the show, and attempting to spread their influence in the region. I think we should be more concerned about that and deal with that, but the US is stuck between a rock and a hard place by directly intervening in the SA/CA. The cold war never ended, Russian's want to expand their influence, we want same. Welcome to geo politics bro, where dirty pool is the name of the game. It's our system vs theirs, ours is preferable to theirs, no apologies needed. We don't need to make excuses as to why the goal is the contain, and limit to the best our ability, communism, socialism, etc, and not get played by dictators and tyrants where possible. Personally, I see a lot of false equivalents being made in the Russia / Ukraine thread on that one.
Anyway, Russia held war games there, did that get any mention in the media at all?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMXVPml9zzA
Venezuela deliberately releasing violent criminals, sending them to U.S. border.
https://www.thecentersquare.com/texas/house-gop-venezuela-deliberately-releasing-violent-criminals-sending-them-to-u-s-border/article_4e58d586-3db2-11ed-a3dd-43b7f5bf6866.html
Venezuela deliberately releasing violent criminals, sending them to U.S. border.
https://www.thecentersquare.com/texas/house-gop-venezuela-deliberately-releasing-violent-criminals-sending-them-to-u-s-border/article_4e58d586-3db2-11ed-a3dd-43b7f5bf6866.htmlWouldn't surprise me one bit if there was prior coordination with their counterpart regime here.
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Venezuela deliberately releasing violent criminals, sending them to U.S. border.
https://www.thecentersquare.com/texas/house-gop-venezuela-deliberately-releasing-violent-criminals-sending-them-to-u-s-border/article_4e58d586-3db2-11ed-a3dd-43b7f5bf6866.html
Perfect way to get rid of them and cost the US bigly. That's a win win for the thugs in that country, and no doubt they have zero fear or worries about the current admin doing anything about it. Would they have done that while the orange guy was POTUS?
I don't know if due to Venezuela deliberately releasing violent criminals, but major increases in crime in Colombia and to lesser degree in Panama due to influx of Venezuelans. Many that came to Panama were first wave and had $. Many from Venezuela in FL now, mostly in Miami. I don't know if they are of the criminal type or not, probably not as they are vetted by US gov vs and fly in vs come over the border. Those from Venezuela I have known all sharp hard working people.
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