View Full Version : Dept of Treasury wants Rock River carbines
https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=7f065fcba9b97cee3adbc621b80c9ce0&tab=core&_cview=0
A superior fire control group? Anyone familiar?
AwaySooner
11-05-08, 17:18
They are talking about the 2-stage trigger probably? Nice sales pitch. They wanted EOTech too.
If I had to guess, I would say this is somehow related to the DEA contract.
And this is the same government that some want to trust with their health care etc. I will keep my colt's and LMT's and they can have their rock rivers.
But they could have got this for less, and it's just as good.:D
http://www.dpmsinc.com/store/products/?prod=1828
Steel_Weasel
11-05-08, 20:16
And this is the same government that some want to trust with their health care etc. I will keep my colt's and LMT's and they can have their rock rivers.
You can climb down off your high horse. The Rock Rivers in Govt (FBI/DEA) service has performed well...and they actually get used in real situations.
RogerinTPA
11-05-08, 21:18
I'd like to see their malfunction stats. I have friends in DEA that point them at people a lot and like to see BG's shit their pants, but it is a rare occasion that they get to shoot the BGs. Just pointing it at most BG's is enough of a deterrent. They (the weapons) do get used, but they rarely get shot.
You can climb down off your high horse. The Rock Rivers in Govt (FBI/DEA) service has performed well...and they actually get used in real situations.
Steel_Weasel
11-06-08, 06:38
I'd like to see their malfunction stats. I have friends in DEA that point them at people a lot and like to see BG's shit their pants, but it is a rare occasion that they get to shoot the BGs. Just pointing it at most BG's is enough of a deterrent. They (the weapons) do get used, but they rarely get shot.
Rarely get shot eh ? What do your friends say ? When I talked to DSU about them they voiced nothing but satisfaction.
SinnFéinM1911
11-06-08, 07:50
If I had to guess, I would say this is somehow related to the DEA contract.
That is exactley it. They can piggy back on that contract so it does not have to go to open bid again.
You can climb down off your high horse. The Rock Rivers in Govt (FBI/DEA) service has performed well...and they actually get used in real situations.
The IRS removing a family from their home because of back taxes is not combat.
Although Colt & LMT may make a better rifle, Rock River seems to have a better Salesperson and that's what matters!!! Your product can be the best, but it will be outsold by inferior products if your salespeople suck!
Although Colt & LMT may make a better rifle, Rock River seems to have a better Salesperson and that's what matters!!! Your product can be the best, but it will be outsold by inferior products if your salespeople suck!
Well this maybe true butttttt Rock River is not selling weapons to the military but does to the LEO however they also do not make a weapon to milspec. Lets face it Colt and LMT sell everything they can make with most all of their production ability going to military. Why would they want to go after a low cost bid when they are building a rifle to a higher level.
I work for a US manufacture who makes the best product in our industry. We do not try nor want to compete with low cost manufactures. They are low cost because they do not meet our quality so they have nothing but price to offer. We sell everything we make and then some so why lower our price? Colt and LMT will have the same attitude.
I am not bashing Rock River, they are an above average rifle however for the price point you can spend a couple hundred more and have a true milspec rifle. I didn't mean to bash them just meant to point out that the US Gov does not pick the best but a low cost item and it has lives on the line. I don't want to have to trust them for picking me a doctor, medicine etc if this is how they view peoples lives. That was my point not saying that RR is bad but it sure is not the best.
Also important to note:
At the manufacturer level, the product that ships to certain customers might be conspicuously or subtly different than those shipping to everyone else. Some users receive more QC/TLC than others.
At the user level, some apply greater inspection processes than others, have lower rejection thresholds, or do more PM on arrival. The FTU at one particular agency is known for completely rebuilding the guns it gets before they hit the road.
Neither tidbit will get much play in the gun press, for obvious reasons.
That's "the rest of the story" as they say, and usually the best part.
Steel_Weasel
11-06-08, 11:33
Well this maybe true butttttt...
RRA passed the tests, and passed well, that it was required to. If the Agency's that chose it were not satisfied it would not have been selected. While not military, LEO's from these Agency's put their ass on the line every day as well.
You have a choice. Carbine A works 100% of the time and it costs more. Carbine B works 100% of the time...and because it cost less, you also get an aimpoint and tactical illuminator. Which are you going to choose.
SinnFéinM1911
11-06-08, 12:02
You can climb down off your high horse. The Rock Rivers in Govt (FBI/DEA) service has performed well...and they actually get used in real situations.
I would not say well. They are average. No knock on them, but many the "shooters" in that arena of work, DO NOT run there guns very hard at all !
Also, they won (99%) because of the cost. That is a fact !
RRA passed the tests, and passed well, that it was required to. If the Agency's that chose it were not satisfied it would not have been selected. While not military, LEO's from these Agency's put their ass on the line every day as well.
You have a choice. Carbine A works 100% of the time and it costs more. Carbine B works 100% of the time...and because it cost less, you also get an aimpoint and tactical illuminator. Which are you going to choose.
Well I would take the one that cost a bit more and is milspec. I know that a Marine will not go to battle with a Rock River. I trust the Military more when it comes to designing a Military weapon. If it is important to the Military it should be important to anyone who will or may use it to protect their life. Check out the sticky that compares all the major guns and then tell me what you think of RR. Hell the S&W M&P is closer to milspec then a RR.
TheActivePatriot
11-06-08, 14:47
Let them do that. When a DEA or SS agent is killed because of a weapon-related malfunction, the bean counters responsible for that decision have his blood on their hands.
Steel_Weasel
11-06-08, 16:02
Let them do that. When a DEA or SS agent is killed because of a weapon-related malfunction, the bean counters responsible for that decision have his blood on their hands.
Because no Colt or LMT has ever malfunctioned right ? :rolleyes: A couple of M16A2's I was issued in the Corps should never have made it past QC but they did. A shooter in a Pat Rogers class next to me had his LMT crap out after relatively little use (as I define relatively little).
I've used and abused Colts for years and trust them...I've seen RRA's get hammered as bad or worse and they always went bang as well. You guys can all get out the rulers and measure your tools til the sun sets. The RRA's work well. You like Colt/LMT/etc., thats fine no one says they aren't great.
RogerinTPA
11-06-08, 17:29
I take it that the reason you are defending RRA AR's so vehemently is because you must own one right????:p
Because no Colt or LMT has ever malfunctioned right ? :rolleyes: A couple of M16A2's I was issued in the Corps should never have made it past QC but they did. A shooter in a Pat Rogers class next to me had his LMT crap out after relatively little use (as I define relatively little).
I've used and abused Colts for years and trust them...I've seen RRA's get hammered as bad or worse and they always went bang as well. You guys can all get out the rulers and measure your tools til the sun sets. The RRA's work well. You like Colt/LMT/etc., thats fine no one says they aren't great.
The Dumb Gun Collector
11-06-08, 17:33
What is the Big diff between an LMT/Colt and a RRA. I have a Colt, and I like it--but what is the diff?
QuickStrike
11-06-08, 17:46
I'd rather trust "The Chart", than ads from Rock River. :rolleyes:
Since I have a choice, I'll stick with the stuff I can count on.
Steel_Weasel
11-06-08, 20:12
I take it that the reason you are defending RRA AR's so vehemently is because you must own one right????:p
Nope :rolleyes: I own Colts and LWRCs. Anything else you want to be wrong about ?
My own issue is a Colt but I know several issued RRA's...I haven't seen either crap out.
Steel_Weasel
11-06-08, 20:13
Since I have a choice, I'll stick with the stuff I can count on.
How many DEA contract RRAs have you used that have gone TU ?
I love my Rock River middy. It and the carbine have never missed a beat. I do plan on snagging a BCM bolt for my girl and keeping the RRA as my spare.
RogerinTPA
11-06-08, 23:29
The facts remains, RRA is not a Colt, no where near the quality. The argument of "just as good as" because you've never seen it happen, is weak and ignorant. Check out the knowledge based threads and do some more reading. Anything else you want to be wrong about?
Nope :rolleyes: I own Colts and LWRCs. Anything else you want to be wrong about ?
My own issue is a Colt but I know several issued RRA's...I haven't seen either crap out.
One my guys has a 16" RRA. Based on what I've seen I would not buy one for myself.
Red loctite on the castle nut, and no staking.
Commercial-dimensioned receiver extension.
Rifle extractor spring and insert, not carbine.
Insufficient staking on the carrier key.
Dremelled feed ramps, performed after anodizing. The angles are different on each and the angle of the left side ramp in the barrel extension overhangs the left side ramp in the upper receiver.
2 stage trigger with low-mass hammer - would not reliably detonate primers in XM855.
The facts remains, RRA is not a Colt, no where near the quality. The argument of "just as good as" because you've never seen it happen, is weak and ignorant. Check out the knowledge based threads and do some more reading. Anything else you want to be wrong about?
My personal opinions aside, I know some of the FBI weapons guys (testers, not trigger pullers), and they love the RRA guns...wouldn't trade them for any Colt. That said, I would be surprised if the next FBI carbine is again made by RRA.
Steel_Weasel
11-07-08, 06:24
The facts remains, RRA is not a Colt, no where near the quality. The argument of "just as good as" because you've never seen it happen, is weak and ignorant. Check out the knowledge based threads and do some more reading. Anything else you want to be wrong about?
Did I every say RRA was "just as good" ? I swear, some people cannot read or pay attention in an objective manner. Don't try and lecture me. Weak and ignorant ? Don't even go there. All I stated was that the DEA contract RRA's were performing well. Now go back and clutch your Colt/LMT/etc and tell it everything is ok the bad man won't hurt them.
Robb Jensen
11-07-08, 06:29
Steel_Weasel & rharris2163
Simmer down!
My personal opinions aside, I know some of the FBI weapons guys (testers, not trigger pullers), and they love the RRA guns...wouldn't trade them for any Colt.
I know 'em too. Which leads me to stay the heck away from RRA.
That said, I would be surprised if the next FBI carbine is again made by RRA.
Now THAT, is an interesting statement...
Parabellum9x19mm
11-07-08, 07:15
i find it odd that RRA gets these .gov contracts.
how many parts in each rifle does RRA actually manufacture? i was under the impression they they pretty much just assemble parts rifles, but i very well could be wrong about that.
i do know that their barrels are 1/9, 4140, the receiver extensions are commercial, etc.
you would think that .gov carbines would be closer to .mil TDPs, but its clear that the training with on these weapons is at a much lower intensity with a lower round count. so apparently they don't think those specs are necessary.
Um ... the FBI (and by extension, DEA) got RRA's because only three guns made it to the final test-firing stage in their procurement: Colt, RRA, and SIG (551).
The SIG 551 far outshone the others in terms of reliability, but was priced extremely high. SIG was given a contract, and I believe I total of two rifles were purchased off the contract.
RRA faired much better than the Colt, and was also given a contract. Pretty much every AR purchased by FBI and DEA (with the exception of certain special units) has been an RRA. While I can't speak to the quality of the RRA guns coming off the production line today, the ones that were being produced back in '03 ran very well. Not only did the FBI discover this, but I know quite a few people who jumped on the RRA bandwagon back then and they're still extremely happy with the performance of their Rock River guns from that era.
SinnFéinM1911
11-07-08, 07:58
How many DEA contract RRAs have you used that have gone TU ?
If you want to ask me that questions I would say no less than a dozen. Some with the Marshalls and some with Capital Police. (all who piggy backed on the contract). Now mind you, this is out of thousands.
Also important to note:
At the manufacturer level, the product that ships to certain customers might be conspicuously or subtly different than those shipping to everyone else. Some users receive more QC/TLC than others.
At the user level, some apply greater inspection processes than others, have lower rejection thresholds, or do more PM on arrival. The FTU at one particular agency is known for completely rebuilding the guns it gets before they hit the road.
Neither tidbit will get much play in the gun press, for obvious reasons.
That's "the rest of the story" as they say, and usually the best part.
Bears repeating. You and I's RRAs may not be the ones .gov is getting.
Not that I'm comfortable with the Dept. of Treasury arming up...
-B
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