View Full Version : AR-15 and extreme cold? (below zero)
I’ve seen a number of posts on IG, FB, and other forums asking folks what their “ultimate cold weather SHTF rifle would be” and I’ve noticed a bunch of people saying something like Mosin, M1903, AK-47, etc. but very few (and in some instances zero) mention of an AR, and if an AR was mentioned at all, there was usually something about using graphite lubricant instead of oil. If I had to grab a rifle in sub zero temperatures it would be the same rifle I’d grab any other time: my 16” middy lubricated with SLIP 2000. Am I missing something here?
Yes, I’m aware of the average IQ on these other platforms, which is why I’m asking here.
https://www.military.com/kitup/2018/01/04/army-issues-tips-operating-weapons-extreme-cold.html
Am I missing something here?
Nope. Lubricant might be a consideration. Us hot weather guys are lucky enough to be able to run frog lube year rounds. I've read that it's not the best in really cold weather.
The only other consideration is bringing a weapon in from the cold.. condensation can lead to rusting.
Slip 2000 EWL is good for -100 F according to their website. Main thing is if your rifle is set up to be soft and smooth in the summer it may be underpowered in the extreme cold.
I moved from a desert climate where it might snow once a year to place that has snow from oct-April. The cold has really made me change how I look at firearms. There’s something to be said about big oversized controls, and fogging and then freezing from condensation was something I’ve never had to think about before. I’ve noticed I’m preferring my AKs over my AR’s when it’s sub-freezing. Also buffer-gas-ammo setups that work in the summer barely function when everything is frozen. As far as lube goes I’ve has good luck with ALG go juice, but -17 is the coldest I’ve been.
titsonritz
01-29-19, 15:06
IMO, work the action regularly on any weapon in subzero temps.
Nope. Lubricant might be a consideration. Us hot weather guys are lucky enough to be able to run frog lube year rounds. I've read that it's not the best in really cold weather.
The only other consideration is bringing a weapon in from the cold.. condensation can lead to rusting.
Mark, you remember this thread from a few years back?
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?146266-Lube-and-the-Polar-Vortex
Unfortuntely, the pics have been lost to photobucket but it's still a good read about different lubes and cold air temps.
I have used mine out hunting all day when it was -14 in the morning with a high of 6 degrees. I use red oil (ATF and Mobil1) and have had no problems.
Main thing is if your rifle is set up to be soft and smooth in the summer it may be underpowered in the extreme cold.
Also buffer-gas-ammo setups that work in the summer barely function when everything is frozen. As far as lube goes I’ve has good luck with ALG go juice, but -17 is the coldest I’ve been.A very good & oft-overlooked point. People swap weights & springs all year during good weather looking for some unicorn 4:00 ejection pattern and there's no leeway for when things get gunked up or your weapon would rather be getting fondled in front of the fireplace instead of trying to move that BCG around.
ramairthree
01-29-19, 17:08
And those same people will mock you for a mass market or mass issue “overgassed” gun.
That runs with anything.
In any weather.
The perfect lightest recoil impulse with the fastest splits Carbine are the fanciest highest capacity mag base with the lightest in the world trigger and most accurate barrel set up pistol are not necessarily the best to have outside of the games world.
Doc Safari
01-29-19, 17:09
And those same people will mock you for a mass market or mass issue “overgassed” gun.
That runs with anything.
In any weather.
Preach it, brother. Reliability overrules all other considerations in my book.
Mark, you remember this thread from a few years back?
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?146266-Lube-and-the-Polar-Vortex
Unfortuntely, the pics have been lost to photobucket but it's still a good read about different lubes and cold air temps.
and just like my comment in that thread.. it's in the upper 30's here in AK again while the east coast is freezing.
I still have Fireclean on my rifles.. I don't care what the detractors say.. it works for me and hasn't gummed my guns up in cold weather at all.
I plan on trying a few rifles out tomorrow. It will be -5 with windchills around -30.
As a side note. I have a 10.5 sbr that I put a gas port reducer in the gas block this past summer. Definitely tamed the overgassing on that rifle. But when I took it out in 10 degrees the other day, it would not cycle wolf without my suppressor on. Now, I run that gun suppressed 90% of the time so it doesn't bother me too much, but it got me thinking, maybe overpasses isn't so bad in my climate (northern lower peninsula MI)
Sent from my SM-S327VL using Tapatalk
Nope. Lubricant might be a consideration. Us hot weather guys are lucky enough to be able to run frog lube year rounds. I've read that it's not the best in really cold weather.
The only other consideration is bringing a weapon in from the cold.. condensation can lead to rusting.
Ask me how I know what it does to an AR's chamber/barrel extension. Aah, good times.
Eurodriver
01-29-19, 19:07
I’ve had no issues when he gets to record cold temps. I was shooting last year and it was 31. No issues. Suppressors help.
I’d love to see some data from a brave soul shooting out in our -20-30 temps in the northern Midwest tomorrow.
Unfortunately, I am not the guy with farmland to allow me to do this.
I once left my 6920 in the car over night when the temps dropped down to 10. Next morning brought it out and fired it. It would not cycle brown bear but worked with xm193. It had always cycled Brown Bear from 30-95 degrees. It was enlightening experience.
Lubed with red axle grease and mobile 1.
I've shot my rifle at -10 plus a light wind. Rifle had sit in the trunk for a few hours in the cold, so not an honest "cold soak" . The rifle was set up as follows:
18" Sionics rifle-length gas system
Gas port is Crane's spec for an 18" barrel (.095?)
Sionics NP3 BCG
A5H3 with Sprinco Green spring
Vortex or A2 flash hider, can't remember when I switched to Vortex
Geissele SSA-E
Ammo- 77gr Nosler CC/21.6gr H322
At 435 yards, I had to go up in elevation from the usual 7.5 MOA to 11ish MOA.
vicious_cb
01-29-19, 20:00
I’ve seen a number of posts on IG, FB, and other forums asking folks what their “ultimate cold weather SHTF rifle would be” and I’ve noticed a bunch of people saying something like Mosin, M1903, AK-47, etc. but very few (and in some instances zero) mention of an AR, and if an AR was mentioned at all, there was usually something about using graphite lubricant instead of oil. If I had to grab a rifle in sub zero temperatures it would be the same rifle I’d grab any other time: my 16” middy lubricated with SLIP 2000. Am I missing something here?
Yes, I’m aware of the average IQ on these other platforms, which is why I’m asking here.
Anyone who wants to talk about SHTF on a platform like FB and IG are already in the idiot category. Its not like the M16 FOW have been shot in arctic conditions for decades with ZERO problems related to the gas system. Guess what rifle America's Hat uses? Theres also a certain country that starts with N and ends is Way that we regularly train in arctic warfare with.
I bet these idiots on FB and IG have no idea how to bivvy and start a fire to dry themselves off before they freeze to death after taking and walk in the arctic wilderness. If thats all what these FB idiots want to talk about when operating in arctic conditions then have their priorities ass backwards. Protip: The cold will kill you far faster than the enemy will if you talking about a true arctic environment.
I've shot AR's, Glock's, 1911's, and VP9's in teens, single digits and negative temperatures down to -10. G96 CLP is the best lube I have found to use sparingly in those conditions for all of those weapons. I tried thin coats of grease and thicker lubes but never had much luck.
Guy I know who's into AKs decided to give ARs a try a few years ago. Bought a DD. Had it a few months, took it out one freezing cold day, had it outside for a while, went to shoot it and the firing pin broke. Pretty much killed his interest in ARs
Guy I know who's into AKs decided to give ARs a try a few years ago. Bought a DD. Had it a few months, took it out one freezing cold day, had it outside for a while, went to shoot it and the firing pin broke. Pretty much killed his interest in ARs
My DD has had zero issue living and shooting in Alaska. Shots on coyotes down to -30F a couple times. Probably 200 rounds down the tube at 0F and below temps. AR-15s are all over the place in rural villages in Alaska, and most of them aren't even high quality versions either.
Couple of weeks ago we had several nights of temps running around -15, I left a PSA FN 14.5 mid gas in a container for a few days along with a mix of ammo in Gen 3 PMAG's. Early morning while temps were still low I tried it out, BCG lightly lubed with Slip EWL I could not get a round to chamber from the mag, would hang up just short of fully going into battery and FA was useless. Single load a round and it would function semi auto but could not get first round to load from mag. Gave up went home and drank coffee. Next day cold rifle still would not chamber, after lubing the hell out of BCG with Slip ELW worked fine, no longer believe the old saw that excessive lube is bad in extreme cold, not if using the correct lube.
MountainRaven
01-30-19, 00:42
I’ve had no issues when he gets to record cold temps. I was shooting last year and it was 31. No issues. Suppressors help.
You have a funny definition of, "cold." :P
ETA: For those who have to deal with conditions where a little fall of snow doesn't cause a minor apocalypse, this post by Norwegian forum member Arctic1 might be of interest: Arctic1's Big Winter Gear Thread (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?130691-Arctic1-s-big-winter-gear-thread&highlight=).
My DD has had zero issue living and shooting in Alaska. Shots on coyotes down to -30F a couple times. Probably 200 rounds down the tube at 0F and below temps. AR-15s are all over the place in rural villages in Alaska, and most of them aren't even high quality versions either.I wasn't there. Figured it was just a fluke. Firing pin was probably bad from the factory and happened to have broken when it did. Would have probably broken in 95° heat
I'm in central Idaho it's -17 this morning with no wind , I'm in construction and been here most of my life ( by choice ) .
As others have said clothing and shelter are the most important. Even the best boots ( whites , shnees etc ) will start to freeze up and start chafing the back of your heel at -15 and down . It depends on the condition but getting the truck stuck and having to walk 10 miles , sucks . Most people are not going to be out at -10 and -40 is very difficult so the whole question of does my firearm work is kind of moot because you won't .
That said I have played with them at very low temp for years. There have been some good articles on the subject , one was the the 1982 SOF interview of Israel Galil by kokalis . The other was the 1986 Swat article by Jeff Hall on extreme cold weather testing . It is a good read , basically the AK variants do much better as they have looser tolerances, fixed charging handles , and triggers that have a lot space around them . Other systems have much tighter tolerances and no fixed charging handle to the bolt. HK did not like the article !
Anyway it's interesting to play around , you can test yours with dummy cartridges and see if you can charge ,or if the hammer will fall etc. I have had AR 15 , FAL , HK 91 and a SKS fail . They have frozen shut , filed to fire a round , to chamber a round , to extract, to feed and have the hammer drop .
What will help is a mill spec hammer and stronger springs , a lighter buffer, a carbine gas system and get the plastic muzzle cap or tape it . I have found a NP3 or chrome bolt helps and a magazine that is well used or the inside polished with a stronger spring will also help . An open tine flashhider ( one you can clean the ice out of ) and blanks to clear the icing out of the bbl before firing a round . Thanks Joe
I see a lot of posts in here about lube. The US military has already done the homework for you.
Lubricant, arctic, weapons (LAW)
Joe,
Was that 1986 SWAT article about the Alaska State Troopers testing? I remember from that they went rated the Galil best but I notice today that they use AR's.
I see a lot of posts in here about lube. The US military has already done the homework for you.
Lubricant, arctic, weapons (LAW)
Can no longer find LAW, like LSA I believe it has been superseded by newer lubes.
Can no longer find LAW, like LSA I believe it has been superseded by newer lubes.
An Army press release from last January said to use it.
I stand corrected, though. A google search of nsn 9150-00-292-9689 only found one ebay hit. Everybody seems sold out. I’m going to have to ask my armorer if there’s a replacement, or if its just hard to buy.
Hi Mack
Yes it was the Alaska state trooper article, and while the Galil was a decent firearm it was heavy , expensive , proprietary mag and Ohio Rapid Fire did not help the platform out at all.
The AR is light , and the cost has come down over the last 20 years to absurd levels . Everyone makes one , or a part .
One other thing is the trend of integral trigger guards , or magpulls add on , or even the old gapper. It prevents you from dropping the trigger guard for heavy gloved use. We could go on and on about lanyards on pistols , lanyards on magazines, slings . But how about triggers ? I love the SSA-E but on my winter gun it's a 6# standard trigger. With heavy gloves you loose sensation or control . Take a light trigger , a big glove , a loaded weapon - aim safely down range and take it off safe , try it out . It's easy to have an AD.
Anyone remember the old AR front sight cover ? Or the story's of the Finns being up wind of the Germans so there eyes would water. My daughter and I go out Christmas tree hunting ( literally) every year ,her with a Dedicated AR -22 and me with the winter AR. It takes about 5 clips to take one down , but it's fun . They get covered in snow , sometimes a mag gets lost till spring .
An Army press release from last January said to use it.
I stand corrected, though. A google search of nsn 9150-00-292-9689 only found one ebay hit. Everybody seems sold out. I’m going to have to ask my armorer if there’s a replacement, or if its just hard to buy.
Yeah I went looking for some about a year ago and couldn't find any, went to Slip EWL. If you find a source for LAW let us know.
I think what’s makes something like an AK work in the cold is that they technically could be considered over-gassed
I think an AR would do great with appropriate lubricant and a large enough gas port.
A strong action spring and hammer sping would be useful to over come stripping frozen together rounds from the mag, and and a frozen in place firing pin.
Once a cold gun goes bang a couple of times it warms up and is pretty good. Getting it started is like getting a cold engine going.
Here in eastern SD it's about -30* right now and yesterday it was -15*. Wind was blowing about 20mph so it felt about -45 but I was tired of being cooped up inside so I got my new LMT MARS 16" CL all zeroed up. Geissele SSA. First the irons then the NX8. It was a bit tough to see the target with the irons with all the blowing snow but the Swaro EL range 10x's helped me to not have to go check out the target every 3 shots. Rifle was lubed with M-PRO7 (the only lube I use) and she ran flawlessly. Put about 45 rounds of X193 through the rifle.
I might sneak out there today and make sure my other MRP's as well as the 6920 pass the -30* test. Suppressed & unsuppressed.
Thanks everyone. Lots of good info, and yeah I realize a rifle is not top priority in subzero temps.
If I remember correctly the recent “carbine vs midlength” test by Crane seemed to indicate that midlengths were more reliable at extreme hot/cold temps (who knows what gas port size they tested, as there is no standard for midlengths). It makes sense from an internal ballistics standpoint that a “soft shooting” rifle in 80 degree weather would barely cycle or fail to cycle when the temp drops below zero. I wonder how a 20 inch rifle would compare. On the one hand everyone says it’s the softest shooting system there is—sadly, I wouldn’t know—but on the other hand it’s got plenty of dwell time, and, as I understand it, a fairly large gas port.
[QUOTE=MWAG19919;2701686] test by Crane seemed to indicate that midlengths were more reliable at extreme hot/cold temps (who knows what gas port size they tested, as there is no standard for midlengths).
Wee yes and no, there was not. Now with the URGi we know that for a 14.5" mid running M855A1 and seeing a lot of time surpressed .0755 is standard. hat however would likely suck with 223 and be so so with m193 in extreme cold. I continue to think gas ports really need to be case by case. If its not I can see how some companies will go on the large side, especially in the civilian market with .223 being common.
Crane specs will never be for 223. It will always be for only 5.56 pressures. That needs to be considered when picking a port.
SouthwestAviator
01-30-19, 13:11
I suspect that the URGI would’ve definitely had problems with .223 in the cold temp test and possibly with M193. With M855A1 it’s so overpressured that I wouldn’t be surprised if it functioned well in AR’s that are abysmally undergassed with .223 and maybe M193.
So I just got done testing some rifles.
Temp was -2 with 20 to 30mph winds making it feel much colder. Rifles sat outside for about 1 hr before shooting.
Rifle 1: BCM 16" elwf midlength factory upper with acog on home build lower with h buffer and geisselle ssa trigger. Bcg was lubed before going out with slip 2000. Rifle functioned flawlessly with both wolf and xm193.
Rifle 2: PSA freedom 16" carbine gas system, carbine buffer, all standard parts. Rifle was not lubed prior to subzero exposure. Bcg would not close. Used the forward assist. Pulled trigger, hammer dropped with no bang. Repeated this process several times. Inspected rounds and found no indication of the firing pin hitting the primer. The firing pin seemed to be moving freely, so I suspect that the bolt was binding up and not locking all the way. Therefore, I threw in the lubed BCM BCG into the freedom upper, and it ran flawlessly with lubed bolt with both wolf and xm193. I think the dry Bcg was the issue.
Rifle 3: aero precision m5 home build 308. Rifle was lubed with slip 2000. 16" barrel with midlenth gas system, h4 buffer, and ssa trigger. Rifle ran with a few hickups. The gun has an adjustable gas block and was tuned where it would function suppressed and unsupressed in normal temps. It was slightly undergassed without a can, and a little overgassed with it. When shooting in the cold without the can, I could tell it was very undergassed. I could have opened the gas block and I think it would have ran fine, but I didn't feel like messing with it.
Rifle4: Ar9 home build. 8" barrel, blowback, 12oz 9mm buffer, ssa trigger, running a 9mm suppressor on it. Ammo was 147gr low pressure rounds that run pretty quiet suppressed. Gun experienced one failure to feed and was just barely running. It was the quietest I've ever heard that gun shoot with the suppressor on it. I have a feeling that with full powered ammo it would have ran fine.
Last of all, my 19x ran without a hickup.
Things to note. Controls where sticky but functioned. As with most harsh environments, I would suggest keeping a mag inserted at all times and dust cover shut. After shooting the rifles I set them in the snow. Ice did form on the flash hinders. It was easy to clear from my 3prong open flash hider, but not so much from my birdcage. Also my primary arms advanced micro dot flickered on me once or twice, didn't seem to like the cold.
Sent from my SM-S327VL using Tapatalk
Ned Christiansen
01-30-19, 22:29
Good timing on the thread.
I’ve been wondering about extractor D Rings and O-Rings, do they get too hard when it’s cold out? I decided to take advantage of today’s weather for some informal testing…. that’s all it is, one little test one little time on one gun. Take from it whatever you take knowing it wasn’t science.
Today’s temp (this evening) is minus 15 to minus 22, depending on where you get your info. One thing I did learn for sure is I don’t totally trust my new Harbor Freight laser pyrometer. It seemed to give a few good readings that were more or less in agreement with other sources but then it would start showing that with every reading, everything was getting 5 degrees colder. Had readings down to 50 below. It ain’t no 50 below here. Let’s call it 17 below at the time of the test.
I set an AR out for four hours. It has a very new Surefire OBC in it, maybe a hundred rounds on it; I double checked and there’s a black extractor spring buffer and an O-ring. I presume the spring is extra-stout. So the question, would the O-ring (and buffer) get so hard at this low temp that it would hinder chambering, and, nope. Hand chambered five rounds, from a magazine, working the CH. Only five, because I figured after the first the O-ring would have some “haz already been compressed” to it.
This was borne out by leaving an O-ring out along with the dial caliper, bringing them in and putting the caliper on a kitchen scale to see what poundage it would take to compress the O-ring to .050, compared to at room temp. It definitely took more and then the O-ring kinda took a set for some seconds. It was hard to determine actual poundages, warm or cold, but it was maybe double the poundage when cold, but just for a moment. Not so much like it was hard, but slower to compress. Well I guess that’s kinda like hard. Anyway it did not seem to hinder chambering. Not science! But if it had then we’d have really known something.
Other notes—Surefire XC1 light, no effect. Also unaffected, the Bushnell SMRS, illumination worked and everything. Bubble level did not freeze. Handling the gun without gloves? Totally impossible, dangerous even.
https://i.imgur.com/b1U3WvN.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/vmkeIKA.jpg
Ned Christiansen
01-31-19, 19:19
This pics-- not only not science, not even a test, really.... just having a little fun with the conditions. It had warmed up a little today, to minus 5 or so:
https://i.imgur.com/w27DSBL.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/XJVi5ss.jpg
I kinda want you to try to shoot it but I’m scared something bad may happen haha
This pics-- not only not science, not even a test. really.... just having a little fin with the conditions. It had warmed up; a little today, to minus 5 or so:
https://i.imgur.com/w27DSBL.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/XJVi5ss.jpg
Ned Christiansen
01-31-19, 20:10
I did shoot it, no issues other than it didn't lock back (note the ice under the bolt catch). Actually I poured the water on pretty carefully since it was just for play, so nothing (else) was glued shut although I could not turn the adjustment caps. But it spent like 4 hours in the cold prior to the water pour, the caps and power adjustments were full functional (but commensurately harder to operate as one would expect).
The second pic is post-shooting. Only four rounds of Wolf 55's, but they ran the gun. When I chambered the first round the dust cover only opened half way but it did run. It was all the way open when done.
Edit: When I say I could not turn the adjustment caps that's when they were covered in ice. Other than ice physically locking them in place, no issue from just the cold.
EditII: I wish I had done a time lapse of it warming by the fire. Ah well, next Polar Vortex.
[QUOTE=Ned Christiansen;2701945]...Handling the gun without gloves? Totally impossible, dangerous even./QUOTE]
This is an important fact for anyone interested in cold weather operations. I have suffered second and third degree burns from HEAT and spent time in a specialize burn ward. I have also worked in industrial coolers at -30 degrees. Working in these coolers I quickly learned at these temps, you can be burned just as bad from cold as from heat, and without gloves in these environments you are screwed. Totally useless without gloves.
A standard Colt M4, 6920, BCM mid-length, quality rifle...etc. will function fine at low temps as long as the lube isn't terrible at these temps and condensation isn't allowed to accumulate and freeze . I've used ARs of various configurations and quality and have found that I'm still the weakest link.
Not sure the temperatures in this video qualify as “extreme” cold, but it’s an interesting video nonetheless. The 6920 did alright, other than the mag release being really difficult to press. MAC channel YouTube video below for anyone interested.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CVe7d7xJdAo
Those torture test videos make me cringe, bigtime and yet ... it’s useful info.
Thanks for the link btw.
kenboyles72
02-04-19, 19:42
Although it doesn't get extremely cold down in Texas, I went hunting the week of Christmas and it was around 20 deg F. While out, it sleeted/rained a bit and had a layer of ice on my rifle and it functioned flawlessly. Didn't have the bolt really lubed up and was using Lucas Extreme gun oil.
Yeah I went looking for some about a year ago and couldn't find any, went to Slip EWL. If you find a source for LAW let us know.
LAW might be easier to find using its "new" name - Lubricating Oil, Weapons, Low Temperature, MIL-PRF-14107, NATO code O-157
Brand names:
BRAYCO 855
ARPOLUBE 14107
LAW might be easier to find using its "new" name - Lubricating Oil, Weapons, Low Temperature, MIL-PRF-14107, NATO code O-157
Brand names:
BRAYCO 855
ARPOLUBE 14107Thanks for the trade names. Looked up specs on both those; intended for 0 down to -68°F. Can be stored between 120°F and -70°F. Pour point down to -75°F. Interesting stuff.
"This lubricant may soften paint, natural rubbers, plastics, or neoprene with contact."
Finally back up to 19 today; sure glad I resisted the temptation to go do some of those -35 tests a few days ago. Will try next year. I'll take everyone's word for it. The Brayco seems to be a Castrol product (https://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/FusionPDS.nsf/Files/2116C422CB7EEACF80257796002F8348/$File/452703_XI_en.pdf), available in 1 quart cans.
This is an important fact for anyone interested in cold weather operations. I have suffered second and third degree burns from HEAT and spent time in a specialize burn ward. I have also worked in industrial coolers at -30 degrees. Working in these coolers I quickly learned at these temps, you can be burned just as bad from cold as from heat, and without gloves in these environments you are screwed. Totally useless without gloves.
A standard Colt M4, 6920, BCM mid-length, quality rifle...etc. will function fine at low temps as long as the lube isn't terrible at these temps and condensation isn't allowed to accumulate and freeze . I've used ARs of various configurations and quality and have found that I'm still the weakest link.
I touched some bare metal briefly in temps a few degrees below zero more than a year ago and still haven't regained full sensation. Happened in literally 5 seconds.
Weapons then frosted over inside and took quite a while to stop doing so.
Interesting that ATF has a pour point around -50F to -60F. That Brayco 885 aircraft instrument oil (or civvy brand for LAW) has a pour point of -70F. As thin as ATF is I thought it would be lower. Mineral oils which is the base of many older gun oils has a pour point of -15 to -30F.
An article pointed out that oils are often NOT useful down to their pour point. A better threshold is the “cloud point” at which waxes start to crystallize, and is higher than the pour point.
Oils can have a “pour point depressant” additive to push it down further than the plain oil. Mobil1 5w-30 has a pour point of -54F but recommended to only do cold starts down to -35F.
My takeaway from this is if out in sub-zero weather than best use ATF or specialized oil on firearms at least down to maybe -30 to -40F. Below -40F you need to have oil that is rated for a cloud point below your lowest expected temp.
And if you store your vehicle outside in temps below -35F then you better get some way to preheat the oil and transmission at least, but better to have it indoors.
Moose-Knuckle
02-07-19, 02:50
Not sure the temperatures in this video qualify as “extreme” cold, but it’s an interesting video nonetheless. The 6920 did alright, other than the mag release being really difficult to press. MAC channel YouTube video below for anyone interested.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CVe7d7xJdAo
When I first spied the thread title this was the exact malfunction I thought of, you don't suffer this with a rifle that has a paddle release. IIRC it was the Finnish that elongated their Valmet/Sako paddle releases for ease of operation in snow and ice.
@ 12:07
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVe7d7xJdAo&app=desktop
That Brayco 885 aircraft instrument oil (or civvy brand for LAW) has a pour point of -70F.I could be mistaken but think it was mentioned that 855 is the new LAW; that's the Castrol info-blurb link posted above.
I could be mistaken but think it was mentioned that 855 is the new LAW; that's the Castrol info-blurb link posted above.
Correct, bad typing on my part. The data is for 855, just the numbers were mistyped.
EzGoingKev
02-08-19, 18:55
If I remember correctly the recent “carbine vs midlength” test by Crane seemed to indicate that midlengths were more reliable at extreme hot/cold temps (who knows what gas port size they tested, as there is no standard for midlengths).
Canada's latest rifle from Colt has a mid-length gas system IIRC. I am pretty sure they know a thing or two about operating in cold weather.
It would be interesting to see how that rifle is spec'd out.
MorphCross
02-08-19, 21:32
It would be interesting to see how that rifle is spec'd out.
While I agree with general notion we have to keep in mind that rifles are part of a small arm system that includes the ammunition. If the round being used runs a higher pressure than your typical SS109 than the system as a whole will chug it's way through cold weather better than a lower pressure load.
While in the Marines I did multiple trips to Norway, above the Arctic Circle in winter. I was in a ski mobile rifle company. We were out for a few weeks at a pop, the coldest I saw was -30 F, at least that's when I stopped looking at a thermometer, at 9 PM, we were out in it most of the night and know it got colder. We used the mil spec cold weather lube. Any lighter oil will work. Your biggest AR type weapons related issue will be freezing from taking the weapon into warm tents, vehicles & buildings. We only had tents and still left them outside. There's a ton of issue with crew served weapons, grenades etc while wearing gloves etc. Of course every optic will fog over and batteries crap the bed in the cold. I doubt modern red dots will work without some modifications.
A bigger concern was always simple things like loading mags & manipulating fire controls. If you go down in the snow (happens on lot on skis, snow shoes or even just boot walking through deep snow) be mindful of snow jacking up the top of your spare mags. Your body heat is enough to warm the snow to the point it'll get some water then ice up later.
Cold temps change EVERYTHING. Even with all the classes and gear in the world you need to get out there and see what works.
If you go down in the snow (happens on lot on skis, snow shoes or even just boot walking through deep snow) be mindful of snow jacking up the top of your spare mags. Your body heat is enough to warm the snow to the point it'll get some water then ice up later.
Cold temps change EVERYTHING.
What was the orientation of your mags in their pouches? Closed or open top pouches?
While in the Marines I did multiple trips to Norway, above the Arctic Circle in winter.Thanks for that; was waiting for someone like you to show up. Here at a nearby Army base in WI we used to host USMC units during their pre-deployment training for their rotations to Norway. Was literally thinking yesterday about this thread, "now THOSE would be some guys to ask." :)
What was the orientation of your mags in their pouches? Closed or open top pouches?
It was in the late 80s/early 90s so we had the old school mag pouches with covers that held 3 mags. Snow will get packed in every where if you don't pay attention to it.
In sub zero temps for a day or two you will need to keep the snow out of everything, use light weight lube etc. You'll be more concerned keeping yourself in working order then anything that runs on batteries as you should. Keep in mind I'm talking about getting out in that weather and staying there for a while. Getting to a warm house or getting into a warm vehicle was not something we could do.
I’ve seen a number of posts on IG, FB, and other forums asking folks what their “ultimate cold weather SHTF rifle would be” and I’ve noticed a bunch of people saying something like Mosin, M1903, AK-47, etc. but very few (and in some instances zero) mention of an AR, and if an AR was mentioned at all, there was usually something about using graphite lubricant instead of oil. If I had to grab a rifle in sub zero temperatures it would be the same rifle I’d grab any other time: my 16” middy lubricated with SLIP 2000. Am I missing something here?
Yes, I’m aware of the average IQ on these other platforms, which is why I’m asking here.
We had (have?) a member Artic1 who trained extensively in cold/very cold climates, and used an AR. I don't recall what his set up was, but apparently his AR was reliable in those extreme temps. If memory serves, I think he had a HK416 which is a DI gun, and perhaps that's a better choice of AR for extreme cold? Maybe someone recalls a thread he had on the topic.
I’ve seen a number of posts on IG, FB, and other forums asking folks what their “ultimate cold weather SHTF rifle would be” and I’ve noticed a bunch of people saying something like Mosin, M1903, AK-47, etc. but very few (and in some instances zero) mention of an AR, and if an AR was mentioned at all, there was usually something about using graphite lubricant instead of oil. If I had to grab a rifle in sub zero temperatures it would be the same rifle I’d grab any other time: my 16” middy lubricated with SLIP 2000. Am I missing something here?
Yes, I’m aware of the average IQ on these other platforms, which is why I’m asking here.
You won't have any issues with a military or defense grade AR in the Arctic. We learned in Korea the pains of using thick petrol lubricants in cold weather. Most lubes will suffice. I have used Froglube paste applied thin with heat in -20 with no issues. You gum it on like a fudd and you'll have a problem. Less is more. They do make Froglube Extreme Liquid: I use it also. Not sure at which temp I would need to switch to Extreme hopefully I never have to find out. I'm guessing -40- -60. -20 here in Maine with winds, the action is stiff with a light heat applied Froglube paste. Once you start shooting it slicks up. Old timees kept guns in the wood shed so they didn't condensate and freeze. Seen bolt action freeze solid, never seen an AR freeze solid unless a casing was jammed inside the upper. Bunch of trappers in Alaska use M16 types. Reference Yukon Men. In the arctic climates you need an outer layer, I recommend keeping your AR under your outer shell and allow your body to keep it warm enough so it's a little softer to cycle. Or chamber a round as soon as you get out the door, after the first shot it will warm up. Nothing wrong with Mosins for hunting, but I've seen their bolts freeze like any other rifle and AKs are not my preferred defensive carbine. If you need a cold weather carbine just go with a quality defense grade model like a Colt Defense 6920, FNH M4, Windham Weaponry Carbine, and use a lube sparingly: or a extreme cold rated lube.
EzGoingKev
02-10-19, 10:21
If memory serves, I think he had a HK416 which is a DI gun, and perhaps that's a better choice of AR for extreme cold?
The HK416 is a piston gun. IIRC Norway or one of the other countries that fields it had some initial cold weather issues. They worked with HK and parts were modified.
Having hailed from the a very cold state, my experience mimics most here. 3 conditions need to be met: 1) rifle can't be undergassed, 2) ammo has to be hot enough, and 3) use a thinner lube and less of it. I have shot my AR's down to -20 F with no issues at all.
Any rifle can have it's small bits frozen up, IE the mag release, safety, etc. Condensation is a killer here. But generally AR's do a pretty good job of keeping large amounts of ice and snow from getting there.
If you want some real fun, do a XC ski race mixed with AR shooting, think tactical biathlon. Will out both you, your gear, and your rifle through the ringer...
The HK416 is a piston gun. IIRC Norway or one of the other countries that fields it had some initial cold weather issues. They worked with HK and parts were modified.
Arctic1 has extensive experience with the HK416 and other weapon families in extreme cold. He has high praise for the HK416.
Dr. Bullseye
02-10-19, 12:44
I see a lot of posts in here about lube. The US military has already done the homework for you.
Lubricant, arctic, weapons (LAW)
Has anyone used this? Is it available. I never heard of it.
morbidbattlecry
02-10-19, 13:08
and just like my comment in that thread.. it's in the upper 30's here in AK again while the east coast is freezing.
I still have Fireclean on my rifles.. I don't care what the detractors say.. it works for me and hasn't gummed my guns up in cold weather at all.
I'm glad to know that about FireClean. I still use it on all my guns as well.
I'm glad to know that about FireClean. I still use it on all my guns as well.
I haven’t had any issues with it at all. I slightly prefer ALG Go juice but fireclean is a solid #2 in my book.
The HK416 is a piston gun. IIRC Norway or one of the other countries that fields it had some initial cold weather issues. They worked with HK and parts were modified.
That's my screw up I knew it was a piston vs DI gun, and typed out some derpa derp due to recall/brain fail. I was not aware they had some cold weather issues.
Has anyone used this? Is it available. I never heard of it.
It appears to been superceded by a newer product. There’s a post about that a couple pages back.
EzGoingKev
02-10-19, 18:43
That's my screw up I knew it was a piston vs DI gun, and typed out some derpa derp due to recall/brain fail. I was not aware they had some cold weather issues.
I knew you knew and figured you just had momentary brain freeze.
Again, from memory - IIRC the Norwegians spec'd the rifle out with an adjustable gas block. I think that was the cause of their issues.
This cold weather thread got me thinking to the Korean War and specifically when the ChiComs first crossed the Yalu in the winter of 1950. It was supposedly the coldest winter they'd had in decades; shit was blowing straight down from Siberia. Our guys didn't have the variety of lubes we have available to us now. The vaunted M1 Garand and other battle-tested weapons basically froze up. I recall reading that some of them used after-shave because the alcohol wouldn't freeze. Essentially anything to keep the weapons "wet" (so to speak) but not frozen.
Think about it: these were probably not new out-of-the-box weapons. Likely leftovers from WWII, *maybe* (a big maybe) arsenal rebuilt between the wars. Weapons with loose tolerances, but none were DI, all "piston" of some sort. M1 Garand, BAR, 1919's, and carbines (although I don't think anyone was surprised with carbine issues as they were the most finicky of those I listed).
When it's below 65, you don't see me outside shooting.
It's funny you mention this because, FireClean, Seal1, and Froglube, are all used with success in Alaska.
It's funny you mention this because, FireClean, Seal1, and Froglube, are all used with success in Alaska.
What about Slip2000 EWL?
MountainRaven
02-10-19, 21:40
I knew you knew and figured you just had momentary brain freeze.
Again, from memory - IIRC the Norwegians spec'd the rifle out with an adjustable gas block. I think that was the cause of their issues.
The problem was a combination of their adjustable gas block and the environmentally-friendly ammunition they adopted with the HK416N.
And the ammunition was also causing pretty severe health issues with the soldiers using it, too.
This cold weather thread got me thinking to the Korean War and specifically when the ChiComs first crossed the Yalu in the winter of 1950. It was supposedly the coldest winter they'd had in decades; shit was blowing straight down from Siberia. Our guys didn't have the variety of lubes we have available to us now. The vaunted M1 Garand and other battle-tested weapons basically froze up. I recall reading that some of them used after-shave because the alcohol wouldn't freeze. Essentially anything to keep the weapons "wet" (so to speak) but not frozen.
Think about it: these were probably not new out-of-the-box weapons. Likely leftovers from WWII, *maybe* (a big maybe) arsenal rebuilt between the wars. Weapons with loose tolerances, but none were DI, all "piston" of some sort. M1 Garand, BAR, 1919's, and carbines (although I don't think anyone was surprised with carbine issues as they were the most finicky of those I listed).
The problem with GI equipment in Korea was a severe lack of funding. President Truman asked General Eisenhower what the minimum budget needed to run the military. Eisenhower truthfully told Truman $7 million. Truman distrusted the military and expected Eisenhower to lie to him and inflate the budget. Truman cut it to $5 million. Because Eisenhower's figure actually was the bare bone minimum needed to run the military, the cut was crippling. There was no money to maintain weapons, replace worn out gear or to pay for fuel for ground, air or waterborne vehicles. Our boys were sent to Korea poorly trained, under equipped and with weapons that didn't function. In fact, the expectation was that we'd be done in Korea before Christmas and our troops spent the first winter over there without winter gear.
The lack of maintenance, poor logistics and inadequate training is why our weapons didn't perform well that winter.
Just bought my 1st AR so I have zero cold weather experience but I do have plenty having hunted in Michigans U.P. for the last fifty years.
I've hunted in 20 below temperatures and have always used either a bolt or lever gun. I remember a fellow who brought a semi-automatic shotgun on a duck hunt.
The action cycled so slow in the cold weather it was more like a single shot. Sure made me appreciate my Remington pump.:rolleyes:
The lack of maintenance, poor logistics and inadequate training is why our weapons didn't perform well that winter.
True, but as pertains to the OP's original question there can be no doubt that extreme cold affected the function of those weapons and it is a legitimate consideration to be given when operating in those temps. An AR has tighter tolerances than those old Garands and such so attention to things like what kind of lube is being used would be prudent.
As a side note Sprinco sells "Machine Gunner's Lube" I have been getting free "battle bottles" for years with my Sprinco orders. (@ $39 for 18oz it's not bad price wise: because you don't need to drench like oil) I didn't realize it but it's pour rated to -50, and operates from -100 to nearly 700 degrees F once applied. It's friction reducing nano particles withstand up to 2600F. That said, they don't recommend you mix it with any other lubes/oils. I have two BCG's coated in it. I have not tested it yet, but it's the thinnest oil I have used: it's smell and mysterious properties make me want to wear gloves when applying it, so it's not going to replace my FrogLube on my CC pistols but I see no reason not to use it on my carbines BCGs.
Found out last night that peep sights and frost buildup from your breath is a bad combo haha.
This cold weather thread got me thinking to the Korean War and specifically when the ChiComs first crossed the Yalu in the winter of 1950. It was supposedly the coldest winter they'd had in decades; shit was blowing straight down from Siberia. Our guys didn't have the variety of lubes we have available to us now. The vaunted M1 Garand and other battle-tested weapons basically froze up. I recall reading that some of them used after-shave because the alcohol wouldn't freeze. Essentially anything to keep the weapons "wet" (so to speak) but not frozen.
Think about it: these were probably not new out-of-the-box weapons. Likely leftovers from WWII, *maybe* (a big maybe) arsenal rebuilt between the wars. Weapons with loose tolerances, but none were DI, all "piston" of some sort. M1 Garand, BAR, 1919's, and carbines (although I don't think anyone was surprised with carbine issues as they were the most finicky of those I listed).
Post WWII the ordnance department did a massive rebuild of weapons bringing them up the latest specs and placing many into war emergency storage. Many were even "canned" in sealed steel drums. Some in theater Garand's and Carbines might have been earlier versions but I would bet most issued to troops on the way to Korea had the latest sights, op rods and good barrels etc. The problem with Garand's freezing up was a known issue from WWII, remember Lubriplate grease was lube for them in warmer temps. n colder weather they stripped the grease off and ran them dry, but also you had to keep checking the action for freeze up from ice build up, especially after heating them up from firing. There was a scene in Battleground where the Sargent tells his squad to check there actions for freeze up.
Glacierwolf
02-11-19, 18:31
I’ve seen a number of posts on IG, FB, and other forums asking folks what their “ultimate cold weather SHTF rifle would be” and I’ve noticed a bunch of people saying something like Mosin, M1903, AK-47, etc. but very few (and in some instances zero) mention of an AR, and if an AR was mentioned at all, there was usually something about using graphite lubricant instead of oil. If I had to grab a rifle in sub zero temperatures it would be the same rifle I’d grab any other time: my 16” middy lubricated with SLIP 2000. Am I missing something here?
Yes, I’m aware of the average IQ on these other platforms, which is why I’m asking here.
I live in North Pole, Alaska. Been living in Alaska's interior off and on since 1989. Lowest I have seen is -78F, no wind chill added. I am still hunting and doing aurora and ice art photography at -35F (no wind chill included) but past that me and the equipment loose all our happy thoughts. -20F to 0 is normal late October to mid March for hunting, colder I stay home. AR's are not happy in that cold. I was lucky and found a can of Canadian Military Arctic Grade weapons oil on eBay - thank you Canadian GI who stole it and sold it - its got a red tinge to it and stays oil like to -45F so far. I put it into small bottles and pass it to my friends. This is what is keeping my 300 Blackout and 5.56mm AR's functional. Most all other products become peanut butter. It's important to get the buffer tube clean of old oil before winter and lube it up with the light arctic grade - or you will have constant issues dropping the bolt on that first round.
Once the temps get higher, like 30F, that arctic grade stuff vaporizes and leaves a film. The up side - it light enough to use for both cleaning and lube in the winter. I will dig out the actual can and post a pic!
Kevin
Two weeks ago I flash froze my AR to my hand. Only put it down for a minute but that was all it took. I'm looking at composite lowers and uppers to prevent that.... but..... it might not work. I recall a gun case in my shed with a piano hinge in the back - the plastic shrunk more than the metal - and the hinge bent outward every 6", could not open it. Brought it into the house and let it warm up and expand it went back like new. I expect the same thing might happen with a composite upper and lower - shrink to the bolt or shrink so the trigger group is hard to move? IDK but I will have an AR ready for next winter to try.
Glacierwolf
02-12-19, 10:16
I live in North Pole, Alaska. Been living in Alaska's interior off and on since 1989. Lowest I have seen is -78F, no wind chill added. I am still hunting and doing aurora and ice art photography at -35F (no wind chill included) but past that me and the equipment loose all our happy thoughts. -20F to 0 is normal late October to mid March for hunting, colder I stay home. AR's are not happy in that cold. I was lucky and found a can of Canadian Military Arctic Grade weapons oil on eBay - thank you Canadian GI who stole it and sold it - its got a red tinge to it and stays oil like to -45F so far. I put it into small bottles and pass it to my friends. This is what is keeping my 300 Blackout and 5.56mm AR's functional. Most all other products become peanut butter. It's important to get the buffer tube clean of old oil before winter and lube it up with the light arctic grade - or you will have constant issues dropping the bolt on that first round.
Once the temps get higher, like 30F, that arctic grade stuff vaporizes and leaves a film. The up side - it light enough to use for both cleaning and lube in the winter. I will dig out the actual can and post a pic!
Kevin
Two weeks ago I flash froze my AR to my hand. Only put it down for a minute but that was all it took. I'm looking at composite lowers and uppers to prevent that.... but..... it might not work. I recall a gun case in my shed with a piano hinge in the back - the plastic shrunk more than the metal - and the hinge bent outward every 6", could not open it. Brought it into the house and let it warm up and expand it went back like new. I expect the same thing might happen with a composite upper and lower - shrink to the bolt or shrink so the trigger group is hard to move? IDK but I will have an AR ready for next winter to try.
Here is picture of the arctic grade weapons oil. Known as LAW - the Mil-14107 specifications are pretty sckookum - its still pours at -75F 55931
55931
Should show a picture of the back of the can with the warning:
CAUTION: THIS LUBRICANT MAY SOFTEN PAINT, NATURAL RUBBER, PLASTIC OR NEOPRENE WITH WHICH IT COMES IN CONTACT.
I am wondering how extractor o-rings are going to work with this type of lube.
Glacierwolf
02-12-19, 17:01
Should show a picture of the back of the can with the warning:
CAUTION: THIS LUBRICANT MAY SOFTEN PAINT, NATURAL RUBBER, PLASTIC OR NEOPRENE WITH WHICH IT COMES IN CONTACT.
I am wondering how extractor o-rings are going to work with this type of lube.
Oh, good point - Well Made. I totally spaced those.
I am 5 years using LAW and have not had an operational issue. I have a short distance place to fire just 1/2 mile from my home so I am testing all sorts of AR loads year round for suppressors, new projectiles etc. Mine are getting constant lube with this stuff before shooting and cleaning afterwards. However - I have NOT removed the extractor to check those little rubber do-hickies in years. I will tear all my BCG's apart (AR's are like cats, you cant have just one - then you have two, then three - before you know it, you are that nice old guy down the street that nobody knew had an armory). I will get back with pictures if any are deteriorated.
Kevin
Should show a picture of the back of the can with the warning:
CAUTION: THIS LUBRICANT MAY SOFTEN PAINT, NATURAL RUBBER, PLASTIC OR NEOPRENE WITH WHICH IT COMES IN CONTACT.
I am wondering how extractor o-rings are going to work with this type of lube.
If you've got an extractor O-ring to soften, you're doing it wrong.
If you've got an extractor O-ring to soften, you're doing it wrong.
Yeah I would think you want it on the bolt, not in the bolt. Inside the carrier too would be a plus.
Yeah I would think you want it on the bolt, not in the bolt. Inside the carrier too would be a plus.
Heh! What I mean is, your AR should have the proper extractor spring and not use an O-ring.
Heh! What I mean is, your AR should have the proper extractor spring and not use an O-ring.
Well there's that too!
Here is picture of the arctic grade weapons oil. Known as LAW - the Mil-14107 specifications are pretty sckookum - its still pours at -75F 55931
55931Your descriptions of what you do in your environment were quite interesting; thanks very much.
That pic looks to be the exact same Castrol product that is the US Mil's replacement to Lubricant, Arctic Weapon (LAW). Some different tradenames (Brayco 855 is one formulation) but I've not seen this "in the wild" yet. Maybe I can just find a Castrol dealer and do a special order. I'd do what you did & find little vials & needle-oilers to make stocking stuffers for the kids' rifles as well. Perhaps I should go looking for another "enterprising" soldier on eBay... lol.
Thanks again. :)
Yeah my bad, I said o-ring but I was thinking insert.
Yeah my bad, I said o-ring but I was thinking insert.
Ah. Good point.
Your descriptions of what you do in your environment were quite interesting; thanks very much.
That pic looks to be the exact same Castrol product that is the US Mil's replacement to Lubricant, Arctic Weapon (LAW). Some different tradenames (Brayco 855 is one formulation) but I've not seen this "in the wild" yet. Maybe I can just find a Castrol dealer and do a special order. I'd do what you did & find little vials & needle-oilers to make stocking stuffers for the kids' rifles as well. Perhaps I should go looking for another "enterprising" soldier on eBay... lol.Turns out it is still on eBay; quart inbound. Just searched on the actual nomenclature. At $21.99 I can get quite a few giftings out of it & sure the heck cheaper than some other "extreme" products. Now to repurpose the latest empty Zippo can.
Glacierwolf
02-16-19, 21:42
Here is another product I use in the cold. I originally bought it to lube my M1a for high power rifle competition in winter. I do not use this in the AR-15 buffer tube - I use it during winter in the trigger group and BCG internals.55984
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