View Full Version : Where should I move???? (leaving liberal-fornia)
turnburglar
01-31-19, 13:50
Hey Forum members. One of the reasons I love M4carbine so much is the wealth of diverse knowledge that can be pulled into a particular subject. It doesn’t escape me in the least bit, that finding ‘like minded’ individuals is hard in 2019; and I have been putting a lot of thought into this for a very long time, and finally wanted to see what the forum had to say on the matter.
I am moving! Me and the wife have been living in Los Angeles for the past 2 years, while I have received better care from the VA and she had a killer aerospace job, LA and more importantly Southern California just IS NOT meant for people like me and her. We hate the: neighbors, traffic, liberals, homeless, taxes, gun laws, and even with our best income years ever, we still cant even think about buying a home here. Again, not like we even want to. I am getting my back fused in the next couple days, and that means that my rate from the VA will likely go up; meaning I will have real residual monthly income. Me and the wife have been talking for awhile about getting ‘online’ jobs, and she already has a work remote offer from her current employer. We also have a mid 5 figure savings account and investments that could mature in the next year into a nice 5 figures. We accrued all this with the intent on moving from LA to Phoenix and buying a 250k home, but honestly the last time I visited the east side it really got me thinking: “Yea I could live here, but I could live almost anywhere. Where do I WANT to live?”
I have lived in Texas, Nevada, Arizona, and obviously California for more than 6 months each. I did a little bit of pre deployment training on the east coast and saw Georgia and new jersey, but honestly couldn’t see myself living there. I also visited Florida recently and while I liked it, Im really not sure I want to live in humidity. I actually don’t mind 110F with dry air. I have never actually lived in the snow and have only driven in it a few times, but I think the best times I have ever had in my life where in the forest and mountains, and wouldn’t mind making the snow compromise to make that happen. My truck isn’t 4 wheel drive, but I have BFG’s and a limited slip diff. I was fine driving in light snow recently, even when all the cars where stuck. The states I am curious about are Colorado, Utah, Oregon, and Montana. I am seriously looking still in Arizona, but Prescott is the only area I can afford the trees. Flagstaff is too expensive. The wife brought up Hawaii, but like remote not on the big island or cities? That might be cool because we both love SCUBA. Still not sure I want to buy there.
Anyways, after I heal up from this surgery we are planning a month long road trip where we drive the entire pacific northwest and into Canada, and come back through Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, ect. The main goal is just to hit all the national parks that we can, but the obvious secondary objective is to find a new town or community. Any suggestions?
Adrenaline_6
01-31-19, 13:57
Hey Forum members. One of the reasons I love M4carbine so much is the wealth of diverse knowledge that can be pulled into a particular subject. It doesn’t escape me in the least bit, that finding ‘like minded’ individuals is hard in 2019; and I have been putting a lot of thought into this for a very long time, and finally wanted to see what the forum had to say on the matter.
I am moving! Me and the wife have been living in Los Angeles for the past 2 years, while I have received better care from the VA and she had a killer aerospace job, LA and more importantly Southern California just IS NOT meant for people like me and her. We hate the: neighbors, traffic, liberals, homeless, taxes, gun laws, and even with our best income years ever, we still cant even think about buying a home here. Again, not like we even want to. I am getting my back fused in the next couple days, and that means that my rate from the VA will likely go up; meaning I will have real residual monthly income. Me and the wife have been talking for awhile about getting ‘online’ jobs, and she already has a work remote offer from her current employer. We also have a mid 5 figure savings account and investments that could mature in the next year into a nice 5 figures. We accrued all this with the intent on moving from LA to Phoenix and buying a 250k home, but honestly the last time I visited the east side it really got me thinking: “Yea I could live here, but I could live almost anywhere. Where do I WANT to live?”
I have lived in Texas, Nevada, Arizona, and obviously California for more than 6 months each. I did a little bit of pre deployment training on the east coast and saw Georgia and new jersey, but honestly couldn’t see myself living there. I also visited Florida recently and while I liked it, Im really not sure I want to live in humidity. I actually don’t mind 110F with dry air. I have never actually lived in the snow and have only driven in it a few times, but I think the best times I have ever had in my life where in the forest and mountains, and wouldn’t mind making the snow compromise to make that happen. My truck isn’t 4 wheel drive, but I have BFG’s and a limited slip diff. I was fine driving in light snow recently, even when all the cars where stuck. The states I am curious about are Colorado, Utah, Oregon, and Montana. I am seriously looking still in Arizona, but Prescott is the only area I can afford the trees. Flagstaff is too expensive. The wife brought up Hawaii, but like remote not on the big island or cities? That might be cool because we both love SCUBA. Still not sure I want to buy there.
Anyways, after I heal up from this surgery we are planning a month long road trip where we drive the entire pacific northwest and into Canada, and come back through Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, ect. The main goal is just to hit all the national parks that we can, but the obvious secondary objective is to find a new town or community. Any suggestions?
If you can afford Hawaii and can tolerate their gun laws which aren't much better than Cali's, the weather would fill your check boxes. The Big Island is not crowded, the island of O'ahu is (where Waikiki and the city of Honolulu is). The other islands are more remote. The advantage is if you don't like it, you can always sell and will never lose. Real Estate in Hawaii is a guaranteed good investment. It keeps going up unless you bought next to the active Volcano that erupted (dumb from the get go). Florida is very humid, but that is what AC is for.
Wyoming first choice. No income tax and the other taxes are low overall. Most of the state is pretty rural. Cheyenne, Laramie, Jackson are the "big cities". Best gun laws and likely the most "free" state left. One of the best economically for retirees.
Cons: windy. Lacks many of the big city trappings outside of Cheyenne. Much of the middle of the state is not exactly picturesque, but much better than Utah or Nevada .
Second choice, Idaho.
I live in Alaska. If I had to move, the only place I'd be going to would be Idaho.
If you are looking to escape CA, don't stop in Oregon.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
01-31-19, 14:41
Colorado is California light. What CA does, CO follows suit. It's beautiful here, but so is Idaho/Montana/Wyoming....
I dunno. I am used to where I am at. Everywhere else is weird and lame.
Or full of people I hate.
Alaska seems good on paper but is essentially American Siberia.
Only two things come from Texas...
And New Methico is out
Like if I had the money...I’d move to Saipan.
If you are looking to escape CA, don't stop in Oregon.
And I would say forget Colorado as well.....
I came here from Montana 9 years ago. I still think about Montana all the time.
I grew up in Idaho and my wife's from Wyoming. I would easily live in Idaho, Montana or Wyoming. My next move will be one of those 3.
Doc Safari
01-31-19, 14:46
New Mexico is going blue faster than I can keep up. Avoid.
I spent a week in Phoenix about a month ago, and drove all over it for work....I wasn't impressed with, well, any of it.
Wyoming and Montana would be solid choices. I've visited both multiple times on vacations.
I really enjoy spending time in Oregon and Colorado, but I won't even consider living there due to them being New-Californias.
MountainRaven
01-31-19, 15:10
Probably worth bearing in mind that you will have to deal with snow most of the year in MT/ID/WY. Depending on where you live, you may not need 4WD/AWD. Depending on where you live, it might be nice - or it might be necessary. Cuz when it isn't snow, it's often either mud or ice.
Where I'm at, 2WD will get you most places you might want or need to go (there are plenty of trailheads you can reach with 2WD, but they're going to be closer to town and therefore busier). But it won't get you some of the places you might want to go, especially if you want to go into the mountains far from other people. I would advise bringing or buying skis or snow shoes, cuz there are lots of places where you won't be able to get anywhere on foot without them.
Coal Dragger
01-31-19, 15:17
Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, Utah, or western South Dakota (Black Hills).
I would look in those areas.
In Wyoming Cheyenne is not exactly picturesque but is close to Colorado. Casper would be my pick if I wanted a larger town, close to the mountains. Places like Jackson Hole are super expensive, but gorgeous. Cody is a neat town but remote. Northeast Wyoming is mostly “meh”, Gillette is not my favorite place even though I may end up moving there for work at some point if required. Sheridan area is also a nice place, easy drive up to Billings, MT and at the foot of the Big Horn mountains.
I currently live in SD in the Black Hills and like it pretty well.
Only place I’ve spent any time in Idaho was in Lewiston, and I could happily live there.
Been to Salt Lake City a few times, and it’s a nice town, northern Utah looks interesting. My wife’s cousin lives in Provo and likes it.
SomeOtherGuy
01-31-19, 15:23
The states I am curious about are Colorado, Utah, Oregon, and Montana. I am seriously looking still in Arizona
Colorado: super crowded, expensive, Kalifornia politics. Traffic and air pollution on the front range, where 98% of the people live. Avoid.
Utah: SLC is weirder and much worse off for crime and social problems than you would think based on outdated assumptions about Mormons. I was shocked. Outside of greater SLC valley area you have extreme wilderness. Check it out, but I would pass.
Oregon: beautiful state. Beautiful. Politics suck and are getting worse, dominated by Portland. Outside of Portland you would probably love the people, but the politics are bad. Proposed gun laws are worse than Kalifornia.
Montana: nice state. Big. As long as you can do winter and short winter days, it's pretty nice. Not reliably conservative but definitely not as far left as CA, OR or what CO is turning into.
Look at Idaho and Wyoming also. WY has the best political outlook, but a lot of other drawbacks. ID has a mixed political outlook but a lot of things going for it. Northern Idaho is very different from Boise is somewhat different from south central and eastern Idaho. I would look at northern first, Boise second, not at all east of there.
I am working on a project in Salt Lake City and have been out there a couple times. Going out there again Feb 17-19. No idea what it's like to really live there but my god, it is beautiful. Two weeks ago I was out there, landed at noon, had some lunch and by 1:30 I was hiking in the mountains. Living in NJ I am used to snow and can drive it in no problem, FWD, RWD, AWD, 4WD, I have driven using all in the snow.
Of all the places I have been for work: LA, Mexico City, Vegas, Texas, Louisiana and Minnesota for work [not counting all the neighboring states]. I liked Utah the most. Honestly, of all the places I have been in the US, period, I like Utah/SLC the most.
I would totally move out there but it's too far from my parents and they aren't getting any younger.
Whiskey_Bravo
01-31-19, 15:35
SLC was way different than I imagined when I went last year. Beautiful and like Alex said, you can be in the mountains within 30 minutes to an hour.
sundance435
01-31-19, 15:38
I'm kind of in the same boat, in terms of being ready to leave my shitty, bankrupt, decrepit, deep-blue state (Midwest - take a guess). Considering things like weather, land prices, taxes, gun laws, etc., Tennessee keeps coming out towards the top of my list. I'd never consider anywhere in the East north of North Carolina (except maybe WV).
I love VA especially the Shenandoah Valley. Also like NC.
I’m from the Philly suburbs and if you don’t mind four seasons I think it’s great. Good laws and close proximity to the ocean, cities, and wilderness.
PA also has preemption laws regarding guns so cities can’t make their own rules. Philly and Pittsburgh have a bunch of liberals but the State government has been under GOP for most of the last 50+ years. Also the state constitution reads “the right of the people to keep and bear arms in defense of themselves or the State shall not be questioned”
CCW licenses are super easy to get outside of Philly (those a holes take a month to approve them out of spite). I have renewed mine in less than 15 mins without an appointment.
Cost of living is all over the place so there is something for any income level. It is kind of an oasis of sanity among the surrounding communist states. PA, NH, and Maine are the only states worth living in in the NE. VT was nice but the lefties are taking that over.
I too live in the suburbs of Philly. We are getting invaded by liberals and the House of Representatives just got re-districted so I plan on seeing even more liberals. I love the spring and summer but hate the winters. Fall is nice when it exists. This year it was here but sometimes the weather goes right from summer to winter.
I also have a house in south east Idaho, about 90 minutes from Idaho Falls. Other than lower income and snow, I’d love to live there.
I'm in missouri, it's a nice state, we are close to a lot of other place for travel and the gun rights are amazing here.
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If you are looking to escape CA, don't stop in Oregon.Or Washington. Both places been F'ed over from Californians .
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turnburglar
01-31-19, 17:11
Everyone mentioning the MT, UT, ID, WY, CO can you recommend specific areas for me to look at the real estate markets?
The insane thing of living in America in 2019, is that traditoinally solid red states are on the verge of swinging (TX, AZ, FL, MT) or have already switched to solid blue because of the cities being filled with liberals fleeing high taxes and real estate prices. I am aware that CO and OR have gone mad with blue, but isnt that primarily located in the cities? I am trying to move into the small towns or complete rural country side. I really wouldnt mind driving an hour or two, once a month to stock up at a costco in the city. In AZ I was looking at half too 10 acre properties. obvisouly I would like 500 acres to shoot on or whatever but cost becomes an issue with that. Ideally I'd like the pines and also like being near streams or lakes.
Stay away from Boise and the Sun Valley/Ketchum area in Idaho. That is of course if you want to avoid the California types.
Middle or East Tennesse. We got four seasons, mountains, lots of trees and water. The cost of living is very low, lots of jobs and housing and property are very affordable. And yes, we like guns and God here.
I'm stuck in CA for the time-being as well. I bought a house near Reno to which I will attempt to escape eventually. The locals I talk to there have lamented that Californians moving to the area are quickly destroying the political landscape and turning the state blue. And quickly. Really sinks my heart when I think about it. By the time I move there (couple years probably), it'll be CA-lite. Ugh... I hope not.
MountainRaven
01-31-19, 19:48
Montana is kind of two states in one. And while we're purple, our Democrats tend to be more conservative, more pro-gun, more libertarian than Republicans from, say, New York. A lot of the state's Democratic party has ties to the state's old miners unions, so Democratic Montanans tend to come from farms, ranches, and mining families. Hence Montana's purple-ishness.
You have, broadly speaking, Western Montana and Eastern Montana.
Western Montana has grizzly bears, mountains, forests, higher population density, more liberals (old school blue collar liberals, Caliradian yuppies, tree huggers, hippies, &c.), milder summers and winters.
Eastern Montana has rattlesnakes, is fairly flat, fairly open, you can measure the distance between houses in miles (outside of Great Falls and Billings), has harsher winters, and hotter and more humid summers.
Two more places to look in Az would be Williams and Payson area. Both are up in the mountains and forrests. They do get some snow in the winter but nothing like what the northern states get. Williams is around 6k feet elevation and Payson is around 5k feet.
SomeOtherGuy
01-31-19, 21:40
***I am aware that CO and OR have gone mad with blue, but isnt that primarily located in the cities? I am trying to move into the small towns or complete rural country side. I really wouldnt mind driving an hour or two, once a month to stock up at a costco in the city.
The leftists and most idiots are in the cities, but the cities dominate population and state politics, so all the @#$# state laws are written by those people. You would probably really like the people in rural CA, OR, WA and maybe CO, but the laws aren't written by those people.
It's not just guns either - building permits, taxes, business licenses, water rights, whether you can own a wood stove, etc.
Everyone mentioning the MT, UT, ID, WY, CO can you recommend specific areas for me to look at the real estate markets?
ID - Coeur d'Alene area and north from there. Sandpoint is beautiful. Not sure about the job options.
CO - in the mountains or on the western slope. Grand Junction is the biggest city. Just avoid the front range.
WY - Cheyenne isn't much but it's the most civilized city in WY and close to CO cities for serious shopping or medical care, etc. Laramie is small and provincial, go west from there and it's lots worse. Jackson is Hollywood yuppieville. I don't know Casper or Gillette at all.
UT - it seems like the farther you get from SLC proper, either north or south, the better things are, but I'm still not impressed.
MT - I like Missoula as a town, but it's probably the most liberal town in MT. Whitefish is an interesting small town but you're looking at some real winter there.
If you want to play Russian roulette with state politics, the Blue Mountains area of Oregon is nice and remote, and Spokane WA is OK especially if you stay out of the city itself. Of course for Spokane you could just commute 10 minutes farther and be in Idaho.
Everyone mentioning the MT, UT, ID, WY, CO can you recommend specific areas for me to look at the real estate markets?
The insane thing of living in America in 2019, is that traditoinally solid red states are on the verge of swinging (TX, AZ, FL, MT) or have already switched to solid blue because of the cities being filled with liberals fleeing high taxes and real estate prices. I am aware that CO and OR have gone mad with blue, but isnt that primarily located in the cities? I am trying to move into the small towns or complete rural country side. I really wouldnt mind driving an hour or two, once a month to stock up at a costco in the city. In AZ I was looking at half too 10 acre properties. obvisouly I would like 500 acres to shoot on or whatever but cost becomes an issue with that. Ideally I'd like the pines and also like being near streams or lakes.
My place is 15 minutes outside of Laramie up against the snowy range mountains. Laramie has most of the city comforts (it is a college town) but just 5 minutes in any direction from town and you would swear you are in the middle of nowhere. Elk, antelope and wild horses are common in my area. Mule deer as well. While I am not trying to convince you to go there, it does have its advantages worth exploring. The wind frankly is the biggest drawback. Otherwise, 2000 yard range nearby, world class hunting and fishing. A ski and snowmobile resort is 20 minutes away from me. I have a 1000 yard range out the back....
Edited to add.... 45 minutes east gets you to Cheyenne. 45 minutes south gets you to Ft. Collins CO. 2 hours south is Denver. Really though, Ft Collins has everything a city needs down to Costco and Sam's Club. Laramie also has the only class 3 dealer in the state. Old German guy has a PhD in engineering and loves guns... and the fatherland. Great machinist too. His name is Dieter if you get there. You can have suppressors there!
Western South Dakota, Rapid City area, only place I've lived that I'd move back to....
If I didn't need to work Wyoming would be my first choice.
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BrigandTwoFour
02-01-19, 06:07
I lived in Great Falls, MT for a while. I loved the state, but not that city. Bozemen was great, though. Be prepared for lots of driving to really get anywhere outside of where you live, and some pretty harsh winters to get used to (especially if you're accustomed to CA weather). Missoula was a nice town as well, and a bit closer to Glacier National Park if that's important to you.
I spent a lot of time in Cheyanne Wyoming as well, and it seemed great. It's close to the border of Colorado, so you can quickly jump over to Ft. Collins for a bit of a "college town" life, or go a bit further and be in Denver (90 miles). If you don't mind a bit more remote life, Jackson seemed like a good place.
If you're looking to go more East Coast, keep in mind that VA is not going to be reliable in the future. That's kind of disappointing to me, since I also escaped CA for freedom, and now VA is looking unsteady. That said, right over the border to West Virginia would probably be safe. Harper's Ferry is a nice little area, and fairly close to a very nice shooting facility (PNTC).
I would pick western Rapid City, SD or the Black Hills in general, and may well move there in 10 years when I retire. I grew up on the prairie just south of the Black Hills and the hills are noticeably cooler in the summer and generally 5-10 degrees warmer in the wintertime. No income tax, gun friendly, and lots of federal grassland and forest to wander around on.
The climate on the prairie (Rapid City is on the edge of the Black Hills) can be pretty hard, and the temperatures range from -20 or colder at times in the winter to 100+ in the summer.
The eastern part of Wyoming has a similar climate but is somehow windier.
Edit to say: I never owned a 4x4 when I lived in SD (my parents did). I got around fine in a 2wd pickup and a car. My dad worked for the state highway maintenance and they just started getting 4 wheel drive pickups when he retired.
SLC was way different than I imagined when I went last year. Beautiful and like Alex said, you can be in the mountains within 30 minutes to an hour.
It really blew me away. First trip out there was October and on day one my boss decided we are going on a hike. I've never hiked before but within 15 minutes of the project site in Sandy we are going up a mountain. Two days later and a half hour away from the site I'm climbing a waterfall. Let me tell you, climbing a waterfall at 8,000' MLS for someone who lives at 85'MSL is harder than it looks.
Either way, when speaking with people who work there they seem to live in Murray, West Jordan or Sandy. The residential areas of Sandy look beautiful, a lot of mountain style homes but they are oddly close to each other. All seem to be developments with very little land. My guess is you have to keep going south or west to get some elbow room. I haven't had that much time to explore but I'm going back middle of February, maybe I'll drive around.
If you're a gun owning Conservative, rural New Mexico is not bad. Land is still cheap and there's only two million people in the entire State. This is a pic of the Country I operate in - I'm the one in the blue shirt on horseback. The lady in the middle is our local circuit riding Veterinarian. My teenage daughter is doing an internship with her:
https://i.imgur.com/UJC3IaVh.jpg
diving dave
02-01-19, 09:55
What ever your choice, you'll be moving up. When I retired from law enforcement, I left Commiefornia in the rear view mirror. Grabbed 30 acres in SW Montana, and have never regretted it. The Winters do take some getting used too. Parts of the state are getting fairly liberal, but just about everyone owns guns here.
OP,
I get where you are coming from, and would be trying to get out of CA too if I were in your shoes. I am contemplating the same thing, and I don't live in Cali. I live in NM. Leaning towards AZ/UT. I absolutely love the Moab area, but doubtful that it's doable. But, then again there is a lot I still love about NM, warts and all.
Gun laws and politics are always going to be in a constant state of change, whether we like it or not. I do not believe ANY state is immune to that fact.
So the question that keeps coming up in the wife and I's conversation is "would we still be happy living there if the politics and gun laws change."
Seems like a fair question to ask.
If you're a gun owning Conservative, rural New Mexico is not bad. Land is still cheap and there's only two million people in the entire State. This is a pic of the Country I operate in - I'm the one in the blue shirt on horseback. The lady in the middle is our local circuit riding Veterinarian. My teenage daughter is doing an internship with her:
https://i.imgur.com/UJC3IaVh.jpg
When I grow up........
One can dream I guess.
I’ve lived in the WA (E and W), UT, the Bay Area, Chicago, FL (many parts), GA, TN, WV, so I’ll begin with that perspective. I also spend a fair amount of time in the Boise area and eastern ID as we have family there. Further, I travel and sample all parts of the US very often and am on a plane roughly once a week. With that, I’d recommend ID or MT if you can deal with the winters.
My wife and I recently left Seattle and moved around a bit looking for another home. We lived in SLC and Boise for a short time and quickly ruled out the former. SLC is great for access to the outdoors, but we both found the residents quirky and didn’t fit in. It was almost like there were two countercultures; LDS and anti-LDS with no in between. That may have been a bias on our part, but we both independently came up with that conclusion after living there for a month. We did like Boise (stayed in Eagle), but I wanted property on a lake or river and proximity to the airport which was near impossible to find.
We recently purchased a home on the Clark Fork river near Missoula, MT :
https://i.imgur.com/y9XUjKZ.jpg
Here is the winter view from my office:
https://i.imgur.com/86sLpWI.jpg
We grew tired of Seattle as it had quickly evolved into a California-esque political mess with rapidly rising taxation, poor legislation, poor infrastructure, and worsening traffic. Fortunately, we were able to capitalize on a huge financial windfall from buying a home 16 years ago and selling at the peak of the market last May.
This is our first winter and I can’t say I’m all that thrilled about it (already considering buying a winter home is AZ), but it’s better than the eastern part of the state as some have suggested and a helluva lot better than Chicago where I grew up. We’ve had one single digit evening/morning and most days are in the 30s with surprisingly minor snowfall. Ice can be an issue on some of the rural roads, but good tires can mitigate that even if 2WD. The snow, even with small accumulation, can be bothersome though as we’ve had groundcover since Thanksgiving. Even so, people here are really into the outdoors and we’re doing the same. I decided to get a mountain bike with 27.5” plus tires and studs and have been enjoying the heck out of that on some of the winter trails here. The climate is dry here as well and this is much more tolerable when it’s cold.
Missoula is a bit left-leaning with the University, but our left is pretty centrist compared to most states. We have surprisingly good food and several craft breweries/distilleries. The music scene is notable as well and people here are friendly compared to what I was used to in Seattle. In fact, many times I’ve glanced around when someone greets me with such enthusiasm to ensure that they’re speaking to me 😊. I selected Missoula over Bozeman primarily due to the selection of services: restaurants as mentioned, outdoor vendors, gyms, gun shops, ranges, and shopping. The cost of living is a little more than one might expect for Montana, but it’s better than rapidly increasing home prices in Boise FWIW. Taxes aren’t bad either. Property taxes are roughly 0.83% of assessed value and no sales tax. State income tax is 6.9% at the highest tier which is a low threshold.
You should definitely put western MT on your short list!
When I grow up........
One can dream I guess.
That's where I grew up. Family been on the same land since the 1750's.
I’ve lived in the WA (E and W), UT, the Bay Area, Chicago, FL (many parts), GA, TN, WV, so I’ll begin with that perspective. I also spend a fair amount of time in the Boise area and eastern ID as we have family there. Further, I travel and sample all parts of the US very often and am on a plane roughly once a week. With that, I’d recommend ID or MT if you can deal with the winters.
My wife and I recently left Seattle and moved around a bit looking for another home. We lived in SLC and Boise for a short time and quickly ruled out the former. SLC is great for access to the outdoors, but we both found the residents quirky and didn’t fit in. It was almost like there were two countercultures; LDS and anti-LDS with no in between. That may have been a bias on our part, but we both independently came up with that conclusion after living there for a month. We did like Boise (stayed in Eagle), but I wanted property on a lake or river and proximity to the airport which was near impossible to find.
We recently purchased a home on the Clark Fork river near Missoula, MT :
We grew tired of Seattle as it had quickly evolved into a California-esque political mess with rapidly rising taxation, poor legislation, poor infrastructure, and worsening traffic. Fortunately, we were able to capitalize on a huge financial windfall from buying a home 16 years ago and selling at the peak of the market last May.
This is our first winter and I can’t say I’m all that thrilled about it (already considering buying a winter home is AZ), but it’s better than the eastern part of the state as some have suggested and a helluva lot better than Chicago where I grew up. We’ve had one single digit evening/morning and most days are in the 30s with surprisingly minor snowfall. Ice can be an issue on some of the rural roads, but good tires can mitigate that even if 2WD. The snow, even with small accumulation, can be bothersome though as we’ve had groundcover since Thanksgiving. Even so, people here are really into the outdoors and we’re doing the same. I decided to get a mountain bike with 27.5” plus tires and studs and have been enjoying the heck out of that on some of the winter trails here. The climate is dry here as well and this is much more tolerable when it’s cold.
Missoula is a bit left-leaning with the University, but our left is pretty centrist compared to most states. We have surprisingly good food and several craft breweries/distilleries. The music scene is notable as well and people here are friendly compared to what I was used to in Seattle. In fact, many times I’ve glanced around when someone greets me with such enthusiasm to ensure that they’re speaking to me 😊. I selected Missoula over Bozeman primarily due to the selection of services: restaurants as mentioned, outdoor vendors, gyms, gun shops, ranges, and shopping. The cost of living is a little more than one might expect for Montana, but it’s better than rapidly increasing home prices in Boise FWIW. Taxes aren’t bad either. Property taxes are roughly 0.83% of assessed value and no sales tax. State income tax is 6.9% at the highest tier which is a low threshold.
You should definitely put western MT on your short list!
Hey Warg, what's the price per acre in that forested country? I am guessing riverfront land is pricey. I've got just under three miles on the east bank of the Canadian River, but it's a lot steeper to get down to it for us. I fill cattle stock tanks with pumps and generators for my percentage of water rights. For our usage I've got a 400 foot well of good water for our personal use, but windmills and well sites with more stock tanks. 900 head of cattle have to drink too.
That's where I grew up. Family been on the same land since the 1750's.
Hey Warg, what's the price per acre in that forested country? I am guessing riverfront land is pricey. I've got just under three miles on the east bank of the Canadian River, but it's a lot steeper to get down to it for us. I fill cattle stock tanks with pumps and generators for my percentage of water rights. For our usage I've got a 400 foot well of good water for our personal use, but windmills and well sites with more stock tanks. 900 head of cattle have to drink too.
Nice place to grow up! Sounds like you have quite a nice setup. I can definitely see the appeal of sticking around here.
Price per acre varies substantially based on proximity to town, power, roads and water rights. There's a 20 acre property near Snowbowl I've been keeping an eye on that's only $60K. Another in off of Mill Creek road in Frenchtown that's $79.5K and 40 acres. Conversely, there's Clark Fork waterfront with a tiny, run down 800 sq ft home listed for $1.25M near Huson!
OP,
I get where you are coming from, and would be trying to get out of CA too if I were in your shoes. I am contemplating the same thing, and I don't live in Cali. I live in NM. Leaning towards AZ/UT. I absolutely love the Moab area, but doubtful that it's doable. But, then again there is a lot I still love about NM, warts and all.
Gun laws and politics are always going to be in a constant state of change, whether we like it or not. I do not believe ANY state is immune to that fact.
So the question that keeps coming up in the wife and I's conversation is "would we still be happy living there if the politics and gun laws change."
Seems like a fair question to ask.
Moab in Grand County, Utah is filling up with Coloradans and Californians. A friend of our family owns one block of downtown on the main street. Her family got rich in the Uranium boom of the early 50's. The outsiders moving in are trying to change the city charter and all kinds of other municipal ordinances to suit their former lifestyles. The native locals in Moab hate them. Jeepers bring the big money for off-roading, but the locals hate the skinny tire road bikers. They call them "Spandex Speed Bumps". I have cousins ranching in San Juan County, Utah near Monticello. They were still able to homestead in the 1940's out there.
I spent the bi-centennial month of July 1976 at Moab with a Boy Scout troop living and working at Arches National Park. Learned the back-country there well when I wasn't marking trails and cleaning port-a-potties.
WickedWillis
02-01-19, 15:16
Northern Idaho like Coeur D' Alene, Sandpoint, Bonners Ferry are all fantastic.
Most of western Montana is as well.
Moab in Grand County, Utah is filling up with Coloradans and Californians. A friend of our family owns one block of downtown on the main street. Her family got rich in the Uranium boom of the early 50's. The outsiders moving in are trying to change the city charter and all kinds of other municipal ordinances to suit their former lifestyles. The native locals in Moab hate them. Jeepers bring the big money for off-roading, but the locals hate the skinny tire road bikers. They call them "Spandex Speed Bumps". I have cousins ranching in San Juan County, Utah near Monticello. They were still able to homestead in the 1940's out there.
I spent the bi-centennial month of July 1976 at Moab with a Boy Scout troop living and working at Arches National Park. Learned the back-country there well when I wasn't marking trails and cleaning port-a-potties.
Yup, that was the general feeling when I was out there last spring. Surprisingly quick to get the stink eye when asking questions about "relocation". While I don't normally care, and folks should live where they want, it is a point that has to be considered in the long run, at least to my way of thinking. It's easy to get scope locked on guns and politics thing, I know I've done/do it. That's why I asked the question I did, but the reality is that we spend more time living in an area than shooting, so the minutia unfortunately becomes a factor.
Arches would have been bad ass back in the ol' scouting days. Spent a couple of weeks rafting the Brazos in TX one summer. Good times for sure.
Topics like this are great for getting a better understanding of what life is outside of the immediate view. Hopefully turnburglar (as well as others, myself included) finds it helpful.
Idaho's days may be numbered just like the other Cali-refuge states. You can knock the mormons in S. Idaho or the recluses in N. idaho, but both groups will stay red for some time. The incoming refugees will be the tipping point.
https://www.ktvb.com/article/news/local/yes-many-californians-are-moving-to-idaho-here-are-the-other-states-new-residents-are-coming-from/277-f65f25f1-6752-427a-b107-a27e5ca09417
Every californian says they're moving for "that small town feel" and thinks, "just one more won't hurt" but they will never admit to being like the thousands who have come before and the thousands who will come after, as they ruin small towns. They all want to move in and close the door behind them, because they're special.
Idaho's days may be numbered just like the other Cali-refuge states. You can knock the mormons in S. Idaho or the recluses in N. idaho, but both groups will stay red for some time. The incoming refugees will be the tipping point.
https://www.ktvb.com/article/news/local/yes-many-californians-are-moving-to-idaho-here-are-the-other-states-new-residents-are-coming-from/277-f65f25f1-6752-427a-b107-a27e5ca09417
Every californian says they're moving for "that small town feel" and thinks, "just one more won't hurt" but they will never admit to being like the thousands who have come before and the thousands who will come after, as they ruin small towns. They all want to move in and close the door behind them, because they're special.
Broad brush much. Not all Californians are hippy leftist fags. And yes, I'll be going to Idaho...God willing.
The_War_Wagon
02-02-19, 19:06
I'd suggest a tax-free, Class III, state. TN, TX, or FL - in that order.
I'm in PA - a Class III state, but hardly tax 'free'... :no:
Diamondback
02-02-19, 20:30
NOT Washington--the cancer has already metastasized here, we're basically Cocksuckifornia Norte thanks to all the Calif***holes who've already invaded and brough their dangerous, unwanted, un-American ideas with them.
NOT Washington--the cancer has already metastasized here, we're basically Cocksuckifornia Norte thanks to all the Calif***holes who've already invaded and brough their dangerous, unwanted, un-American ideas with them.
Maybe you also have an indigenous commie problem, you couldn't possibly have a home grown commie problem...right?
Here's a piece of history for all you California haters. I've lived here all my life and watched over the decades MILLIONS of people emigrate to my state from where?? All the other states. That would include from states that complain about Ca commies. Those people came here for the weather, or jobs, or Yosemite, but they came and guess what, they weren't all even close to being super duper conservatives all wanting to pack heat. So, many of the leftist that flourished here ultimately came from the states of Ca haters.
Diamondback
02-02-19, 21:36
Maybe you also have an indigenous commie problem, you couldn't possibly have a home grown commie problem...right?
We do, but until the California Invasion started in the '90s we were mostly able to keep Seattle somewhat contained. Once they had an IV pump of growth-medium to metastasize with...
And then there's the other problem: Seattle turns out en-masse and is 1/4 of the state. When only 40% return ballots and 60% of that 40% is the King County Democrat Machine, good luck beating 24% with 16% when the other 60% just wanna grow calluses on their asses and gripe, be Keyboard Kommandoes.
MountainRaven
02-02-19, 23:42
I've worked with several California transplants.
Can't seem to get anywhere without rubbing shoulders with someone from California, here.
However, all those I know are from California have been glad to be gone from there, are quite conservative, and enjoy packing guns.
I'm not saying that they're all like that. But those I've met have been.
I'm reminded of the polling in Texas showing that native Texans were more likely to vote for Beto (D) than transplants... with something like 44% of native Texans voting for Cruz (R) and 55% of transplants.
So while we like blaming the transplants... not everything that's wrong with our states might be their faults.
I'm a CA refugee. Hate that place.
I'm glad Wisconsin is still a good kept secret, decently cheap, great people, good gun laws, winter keeps the many out.
I'm debating staying in WA currently, but obvious reasons make me second guess that. I'll probably end up back in Wisconsin. The Mid-west is much more sane. Ignore Illinois.
Check out your prospective states' income tax laws if you are retired (medically or 20+). Alabama has income tax, but not on retirement pay. Not all states have income tax, of course, and as far as I know, no states tax disability compensation.
Most states have some benefits for disabled vets, but the benefits vary greatly. You want to buy a home, and you can save a pretty penny if property tax is exempted.
Andy
Broad brush much. Not all Californians are hippy leftist fags.
Not all, but a majority bring the same problems and attitude that are destroying California with them. Broad brush they do diminish the rural character of my area. Doesn't mean I will treat you poorly or judge you based on anything but your character. (Unless you can't figure out a two lane highway has more than just a left lane...)
Travelingchild
02-03-19, 08:42
...close to the mountains. Places like Jackson Hole are super expensive,...
Yup, Still trying to figure out where to move to myself as I get older and winter sports get harder on the body..
Travelingchild
02-03-19, 08:59
...
WY - Jackson is Hollywood yuppieville. ..
Pretty broad stereotype, Been here 20 years came out on vacation and never left, been everything from a river rat, ski bum, restaurants employee, Now i'm self employed..
Funny thing about "Hollywood" None of the locals give a Sh't, the only time celebrities get mobbed is by the out of state tourist types..., was next to Harrison Ford several time at the local pub hardly recognized him and didn't care..
When people are placed in stereotype's based on what they wear or drive, it drives divisions in communities, and in itself destroys the character of small towns..
The problem is Californians are destroying every where they immigrate to Ada county and Kootenai county are little California and the latest reelection has anti gun politicians being reelected.The Demos and RINOs.
Diamondback
02-19-19, 22:27
The problem is Californians are destroying every where they immigrate to Ada county and Kootenai county are little California and the latest reelection has anti gun politicians being reelected.The Demos and RINOs.
They're like the aliens in Independence Day... O.O
turnburglar
02-20-19, 01:25
Hey Guys, OP Here,
This thread has been a blast to read. I had my surgery two weeks ago; and besides my surgeon, every single other aspect of d ealing with the VA has been nightmarish. I got pnuemonia cause the hospital was so dirty, and vommiting with pnuemonia right after having back surgery has probably been the worst expeeince of my life. I feel like surviving afghanistan was easy compared to the VA. I also got their decision about my claim and my current precentage is staying the same, so that means money is still gonna be tight.
Since I HAVE to leave So Cal, the obvious and easy option is for me and the wife to go back to Phoenix. I got into ASU anyways, so atleast I can use my GI bill. Until the semstser starts in the fall though I really have nothing to do, so we planned a trip to Bali, indonesia for a month with the intentions of scouting to see about staying and living out there while I do physical therapy for a few months. We already looked and for $500 a month you can rent a really awesome 2 bedroom with a private pool, and the dollar goes insanley far out there. Besides Bali, I am sure there are other places in southeast asia that the dollar goes far. The Phillipines comes to mind. Does anyone have experience thouhg in that part of the world?? Im not trying to buy property, or denounce my citizenship or anything crazy like that. Just spend a few months to physical therapy in a serene place that I can afford.
Hey Guys, OP Here,
This thread has been a blast to read. I had my surgery two weeks ago; and besides my surgeon, every single other aspect of d ealing with the VA has been nightmarish. I got pnuemonia cause the hospital was so dirty, and vommiting with pnuemonia right after having back surgery has probably been the worst expeeince of my life. I feel like surviving afghanistan was easy compared to the VA. I also got their decision about my claim and my current precentage is staying the same, so that means money is still gonna be tight.
Since I HAVE to leave So Cal, the obvious and easy option is for me and the wife to go back to Phoenix. I got into ASU anyways, so atleast I can use my GI bill. Until the semstser starts in the fall though I really have nothing to do, so we planned a trip to Bali, indonesia for a month with the intentions of scouting to see about staying and living out there while I do physical therapy for a few months. We already looked and for $500 a month you can rent a really awesome 2 bedroom with a private pool, and the dollar goes insanley far out there. Besides Bali, I am sure there are other places in southeast asia that the dollar goes far. The Phillipines comes to mind. Does anyone have experience thouhg in that part of the world?? Im not trying to buy property, or denounce my citizenship or anything crazy like that. Just spend a few months to physical therapy in a serene place that I can afford.
one of my buddies has a wife from Philippines he is down there for 6 months with her and her family now he is loving it so far and having a great time
like anywhere bad parts are easy to find out and stay out of
I had lots of friends with family from there and extended family there when I lived in Hawaii great people so over almost 40 years of knowing lots of folks from there and still there it sounds about the same so quite stable in that sense (again from what and who I know)
my experience with folks in Indonesia and Bali is to old these days ? from my time I spent time in Micronesia and had friends that worked in those places so would be no help :)
bummer to hear about the hospital !
I know was just chatting with my friends about Portugal and the coastal areas that are really nice and quite reasonable just outside as in 30 minutes or so to avoid the higher prices of the main tourist areas and hearing good things about it ? totally dif experience I reckon then the others but who knows might be worth checking out to
year around great sun shine etc. and they said was quite reasonable
WickedWillis
02-20-19, 10:56
The problem is Californians are destroying every where they immigrate to Ada county and Kootenai county are little California and the latest reelection has anti gun politicians being reelected.The Demos and RINOs.
Kootenai County is changing like crazy, and is growing at an insane rate as well. I always joke with new customers from California that it's fine they move here, just don't vote! The only real positive is they are bringing tons of jobs into the region right now, and the area is booming with new construction and a swelling job pool.
Adrenaline_6
02-20-19, 11:52
Kootenai County is changing like crazy, and is growing at an insane rate as well. I always joke with new customers from California that it's fine they move here, just don't vote! The only real positive is they are bringing tons of jobs into the region right now, and the area is booming with new construction and a swelling job pool.
..and that's how they get ya. "Hey handsome/cutie, you want some candy?"...then.....ass-raped.
Move to a state that has NO income tax. That would be a big priority for me. Next up would be friendly politics and few (if any) gun laws.
PatrioticDisorder
02-20-19, 16:38
Florida is calling
Move to a state that has NO income tax. That would be a big priority for me. Next up would be friendly politics and few (if any) gun laws.
Tennessee has no income tax, low real estate prices and is very 2nd Amendment friendly. But shhh, don't tell anyone north of the Mason-Dixon line or west of the Mississippi.
Move to a state that has NO income tax.
Alaska, Florida, Nevada, South Dakota, Texas, Washington and Wyoming
turnburglar
02-24-19, 13:33
Another idea I have lightly been kicking around; does anyone have experience buying bare land and developing it?
I can reasonably afford and acre or two in some of the mountain towns around AZ, I just dont know how much work it really is to turn a bare lot into a proper residence. Did you pay for everything with cash or is there some financing availble for new builds?
Construction loans are generally short term like 6 months or little more and then refi conventional. The unknowns of developing bare land include access to water (city or well and if well how friggin deep), distance from city services ( power, phone, sewer, water), if no sewer then how suitable is the ground for septic and drain field, flood plain (creeks, rivers, ponds), and length of driveway needed and type of ground it will pass over. The other thing to be considered are zoning laws which in rural areas are mostly county but if near a large city can also include “metro area” regulations such as urban growth boundary, green zones and watersheds, mandatory density or minimum acreage, and tax discounts if nominally used for agriculture (tree farm or raise a couple of goats and chickens). Many areas in the Midwest and west access to water is a critical factor to resolve ASAP. Some will need very deep wells or for farming you have to get on a farming watershed irrigation supply with access rights controlled by date of joining for shut offs during droughts.
turnburglar
02-25-19, 11:20
Hey thanks for the reply!
It sounds like all of those factors (power, water, access, services) can be verified before making an offer on the land, or written into the offer as a contingency.
If I can get a construction loan and then just refi into a convetional that sounds like a decent way of going about paying for the whole property. The acreage is between 20k-40k an acre, but depending on the seller I could get by with putting 50% down. It seems like the hardest part would be balancing a life with renting in the city while I build up in the mountains? Has anyone actually done this before? How well did you stick to your planned schedule?
Edit: to add there are some pre-built houses on land in the areas that I am looking it's just that these houses are all at the top of my budget (250k) and they still need some serious work. Just speculating that if I got the land at 50K, I could build a hell of a new house for 200 and still not be over valued for the market.
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