View Full Version : If You Like Your DNA You Can Keep It--Just Not a Secret
Doc Safari
02-01-19, 17:22
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-02-01/one-biggest-home-dna-testing-companies-secretly-sharing-data-fbi
One Of The Biggest At-Home DNA Testing Companies Is Secretly Sharing Data With The FBI
Just one week ago, we warned that the government — helped by Congress (which adopted legislation allowing police to collect and test DNA immediately following arrests), President Trump (who signed the Rapid DNA Act into law), the courts (which have ruled that police can routinely take DNA samples from people who are arrested but not yet convicted of a crime), and local police agencies (which are chomping at the bit to acquire this new crime-fighting gadget) — was embarking on a diabolical campaign to create a nation of suspects predicated on a massive national DNA database.
As it turns out we were right, but we forgot one key spoke of the government's campaign to collect genetic information from as many individuals as possible: "innocent", commercial companies, who not only collect DNA from willing clients, but are also paid for it.
FamilyTreeDNA, one of the pioneers of the growing market for "at home", consumer genetic testing, confirmed a report from BuzzFeed that it has quietly granted the Federal Bureau of Investigation access to its vast trove of nearly 2 million genetic profiles.
While concerns about unrestricted access to genetic information gathered by testing companies had swelled since April, when police used a genealogy website to ensnare a suspect in the decades-old case of the Golden State Killer, that site, GEDmatch, was open-source, meaning police were able to upload crime-scene DNA data to the site without permission. However, the latest arrangement marks the first time a commercial testing company has voluntarily given law enforcement access to user data.
Worse, it did so secretly, without obtaining prior permission from its users.
Thanks to its millions of customers, FamilyTreeDNA’s "cooperation" with the FBI more than doubles the amount of genetic data law enforcement already had access to through GEDmatch. According to BuzzFeed, and as confirmed by the company, on a case-by-case basis the company has agreed to test DNA samples for the FBI and upload profiles to its database, allowing law enforcement to see familial matches to crime-scene samples.
There is one caveat: FamilyTreeDNA said law enforcement may not freely browse genetic data but rather has access only to the same information any user might. Which of course, is ridiculous when the FBI has the same access as every single user.
Needless to say, the genealogy community has expressed dismay.
...(J)ust like search engines and social networks, where the user is the product, and all the information about the user is carefully collected, isolated and stored, then sold to the highest bidder, or quietly handed over to the government, consumer DNA testing has become a giant business: Ancestry.com and 23andMe Inc. alone have sold more than 15 million DNA kits. Concerns about an industry commitment to privacy could hamper the industry’s rapid growth.
My take: Let's not mince words. The East German Stasi used to collect samples of a person's scent, which they kept in sealed jars in case they needed to track the person later.
https://www.dw.com/en/the-stasi-had-a-giant-smell-register-of-dissidents/a-2555053
Was scent sampling a method developed by the Stasi?
No, it's a well-known police method used in criminal investigations, but even in the GDR it wasn't allowed to be admitted as evidence and that's why the samples were often collected secretly instead of openly. The problem is not with scent profiling as such, but rather with collecting scents as a precautionary measure in case they can eventually be used in the future. This is what the Stasi did -- they had a giant scent register of dissidents. They really tried to have a sample of everyone who potentially could have said something critical of the state
This is the same thing.
The government wants your DNA, as a way to track you, control you, and in general exercise more power over society as a whole.
Why anyone would trust social media, DNA collection, or any other information clearinghouse in the modern era puzzles me.
Honestly I don't have much sympathy for anyone that sends their DNA into some internet company with an expectation of privacy. Kinda like the "register your guns in case they get stolen, we won't misuse the information" that some city posted not too long ago.
I can't see how anyone would not think these dna tests are privacy compromised.
Gattaca!
Sent from my G8341 using Tapatalk
Honestly I don't have much sympathy for anyone that sends their DNA into some internet company with an expectation of privacy.
EXACTLY! Dumb as having Siri or Alexa in your house. Beyond idiotic.
I am shocked :) hang on let me ask my google voice and alexa about this privacy thing :) hahahahahahahahahah (ditto markm above)
folks paying to get wire tapped and folks paying to get on a database with their DNA reckon I should say FOOLS not FOLKS :)
maybe go watch that future crime tom cruise movie tonight :) hahahahaha
come to think of it I just might do the DNA thing :) not my blood of course just a good sampling I can find in various places including the butcher and on my form say I identify as a deer even though I might be bovine :)
I think most of the military folks (at least in the last 20 years) have DNA on file with uncle Sam anyway.
No surprise. Guess what, they're likely to sell it to insurance companies as well. Probably in secret. We'll all be mapped for genetic disorders or predispositions, ranked by risk, and charged accordingly. The most unfortunate part is that even if you don't want to participate, your family might. Which will likely be data that can be largely interpolated. We're in a new age.
DNA are the new fingerprints and they will get it anyway they can.
I remember schools doing field trips to the police department to see how they work and one of the "fun and game" exercises was getting fingerprinted. Other programs collected school age children fingerprints under the guise of helping to protect them if kidnapped, etc.
What about the last set of blood tests you had drawn at your doctor’s office? What kind of deal do the Feds have with all the hospital labs in the country? The Feds have their hooks DEEPLY into virtually every health care facility in the country. How do you know they aren’t sending a few extra drops of your blood on to the FBI or some less incompetent but even more sinister black agency in charge of the government’s genetic database?
......
What about the last set of blood tests you had drawn at your doctor’s office? What kind of deal do the Feds have with all the hospital labs in the country? The Feds have their hooks DEEPLY into virtually every health care facility in the country. How do you know they aren’t sending a few extra drops of your blood on to the FBI or some less incompetent but even more sinister black agency in charge of the government’s genetic database?
......
Yeah, I imagine with the correct warrant, doctor / patient confidentiality goes out the window.
Swabs for testing various things ?
Blood drawn on American Indians to prove % ?
Every baby in recent times have blood drawn !
Sadly most of youth today are databased and their whole life is online etc.... so a very complete profile of them
pediatricians ask about guns in the home and other things
DNA tests are HUGE chumpbait.
Usually folks insecure whether or not their grandfolks got it on with a black or white person somewhere.
Like seriously....
And really...does it matter?
If you take the bait, what does it say about you
DNA tests are HUGE chumpbait.
Usually folks insecure whether or not their grandfolks got it on with a black or white person somewhere.
Like seriously....
And really...does it matter?
If you take the bait, what does it say about you
I did this years ago before this whole thing was a thing! Back around 2002 or so?!? It was a national geographic thing. Anyway, it doesn't matter but I'm that curious. I find it fascinating. I'd love to know where my great great grandparents were from! I can only go back to my parents grandparents. I know my dad's uncle (father's brother) came to the US in the early 20s and as far as I know he was the only one in my dad's family until we came here in 88. I know he dies in the mid 90s. I tried finding him through ancestry but don't know how his original name was spelled. He shortened it to "Max". There is also another member I'd love to find info on but that's for another time and most likely impossible. I know my last name stems from 14th century Germany but everyone of my family was born in Eastern Europe. I'd love to know who and when it changed.
It will not change a thing except feed my morbid curiosity.
Having said that.... this national geographic thing was almost 20 years ago. Today I wouldn't do it. Different times
Yeah, I imagine with the correct warrant, doctor / patient confidentiality goes out the window.
Well, that’s true, of course. Testifying against a patient and breaching confidentiality can be easily and legally compelled. But if the Feds want a little of your blood to run your DNA sequence, doctors aren’t involved. They could just tell the hospital or other certified lab that their Medicare participation is on the line and they want a couple of drops to sequence each patient’s DNA. It doesn’thave anything to do with doctors except that they’re the ones that order the battery of blood tests in the first place. About 85% of the blood they draw for any given battery of test is discarded. A couple of drops on a slide, or a simple swab and a batch mailer is all they’d need and no one would be the wiser. In these various threads, we’ve posited a vast variety of extra-legal breaches of the 4th amendment, some far more egregious than this one.
I don’t know that labs are doing that, but like most doctors, I would have no way of knowing. The hematology lab is a land of mystery to me. In our hospital, I know where it is but I’ve set foot in there maybe once in 30 years. I order the blood count, for example. The phlebotomist draws the blood and the only other thing I know about the whole process is when the results show up in the computer a few minutes later. Those results are all I care about...not what happens to the blood afterward they’re done running the tests. I do know that they hang on to the vials for some period of time in case additional tests are needed, but I don’t know for how long. That’s not in my lane.
Honestly I don't have much sympathy for anyone that sends their DNA into some internet company with an expectation of privacy. Kinda like the "register your guns in case they get stolen, we won't misuse the information" that some city posted not too long ago.
Problem is that if a member of your family takes this test, they can cross reference nearest family members and you can wind up a suspect based on your brother’s actions due to your father or uncle taking one of these tests. Additionally every member of the military has a blood draw for DNA that is kept in a database. In the end, we are rapidly approaching the era where everything about you is catalogued down to the genetic level, and your deepest thoughts kept in a database based on your Google searches. Not to mention the listening device in our pocket that we are nearly never separated from. Welcome to 1984.
DNA tests are HUGE chumpbait.
Usually folks insecure whether or not their grandfolks got it on with a black or white person somewhere.
Like seriously....
And really...does it matter?
If you take the bait, what does it say about you
My FIL is a big genealogy nut, he is a nice man, but that is all he knows, genealogy and B-52's (pretty much all he worked on at Boeing), that is it. Consequently convo's with him are limited.
I tried to listen and be polite for the first 5 to 10 years, finally I had to tell him pointblank not interested in how far back his family goes in Germany, not one iota. So now I just grin and bear listening to the same B-52 stories.
I think SOME of the genealogy buffs are somewhat self-absorbed, and given to humble bragging about their lineage, others are genuinely curious.
I, myself, don't care, although I still semi-take care of my Grandfather's family grave sites in two local cemeteries, that is out of respect for a man I knew and cared about.
Back to the DNA thing.........
My FIL is a big genealogy nut, he is a nice man, but that is all he knows, genealogy and B-52's (pretty much all he worked on at Boeing), that is it. Consequently convo's with him are limited.
I tried to listen and be polite for the first 5 to 10 years, finally I had to tell him pointblank not interested in how far back his family goes in Germany, not one iota. So now I just grin and bear listening to the same B-52 stories.
I think SOME of the genealogy buffs are somewhat self-absorbed, and given to humble bragging about their lineage, others are genuinely curious.
I, myself, don't care, although I still semi-take care of my Grandfather's family grave sites in two local cemeteries, that is out of respect for a man I knew and cared about.
Back to the DNA thing.........
In our family, both sides, it seems that as my uncles (now all dead), and now my cousins retire and get old, genealogy becomes one of their big hobbies, even entailing trips to Scotland to pour through ancestral records and tour ancestral castles. One uncle spent days going through records at the current clan center in Scotland. They've generated a detailed family tree all the way back to 1620. It's interesting, but I've been sort of relieved to note that none of them have succumbed to DNA testing as part their research, as all of them seem to be as suspicious of the concept as the average poster in this thread. Even my last surviving aunt, now 96, thinks the concept is stupid despite her own interest in genealogy, and she advised me to skip DNA testing last time I saw her last spring.
the DNA push now is about your health and making sure you know what you are going to/could get as far as diseases :) at least that is THEIR pitch on why to get it for your health
Works for me....
Kaiser Permanente...knocks off 75 off my insurance premium if I stay a weight...
I get a bonus for other stuff.
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
My FIL is a big genealogy nut, he is a nice man, but that is all he knows, genealogy and B-52's (pretty much all he worked on at Boeing), that is it. Consequently convo's with him are limited.
I tried to listen and be polite for the first 5 to 10 years, finally I had to tell him pointblank not interested in how far back his family goes in Germany, not one iota. So now I just grin and bear listening to the same B-52 stories.
I think SOME of the genealogy buffs are somewhat self-absorbed, and given to humble bragging about their lineage, others are genuinely curious.
I, myself, don't care, although I still semi-take care of my Grandfather's family grave sites in two local cemeteries, that is out of respect for a man I knew and cared about.
Back to the DNA thing.........
As a history nerd, I have some interest in the whole genealogy thing, but I don't see it as something to brag about, you literally have no control over where you came from.
Doing the research can be interesting, to see what you discover, but that's about it.
As an example it turns out I'm related to Daniel Boone, Davy Crockett and Meriwether Lewis but so are probably 10,000 other people and it's so distant that all three men are now related to each other to some degree. It was something neat to know when I was in the 4th grade, now it's as personal as "we went to the moon." Technically "we did go to the moon" but it's not like I had any meaningful relationship to that event except for what it did for me as a person and my sense of wonder. Had I never existed, we still would have gone to the moon.
The only thing I take the slightest pride in is my Grandfather, who was just another guy on a B-24 who did his thing, survived the war and had a few interesting stories. But those were his accomplishments, not mine, so pride isn't really the correct word.
As an example it turns out I'm related to Daniel Boone, Davy Crockett and Meriwether Lewis but so are probably 10,000 other people ...
Yep...I'm related to Daniel Boone too, on my mother's side...directly from his sister Sarah Boone. But so are probably 10,000 other people. I'm more directly related to John Moses Browning, but I can't remember how. My mother's family name was Browning.
Well, that’s true, of course. Testifying against a patient and breaching confidentiality can be easily and legally compelled. But if the Feds want a little of your blood to run your DNA sequence, doctors aren’t involved. They could just tell the hospital or other certified lab that their Medicare participation is on the line and they want a couple of drops to sequence each patient’s DNA. It doesn’thave anything to do with doctors except that they’re the ones that order the battery of blood tests in the first place. About 85% of the blood they draw for any given battery of test is discarded. A couple of drops on a slide, or a simple swab and a batch mailer is all they’d need and no one would be the wiser. In these various threads, we’ve posited a vast variety of extra-legal breaches of the 4th amendment, some far more egregious than this one.
I don’t know that labs are doing that, but like most doctors, I would have no way of knowing. The hematology lab is a land of mystery to me. In our hospital, I know where it is but I’ve set foot in there maybe once in 30 years. I order the blood count, for example. The phlebotomist draws the blood and the only other thing I know about the whole process is when the results show up in the computer a few minutes later. Those results are all I care about...not what happens to the blood afterward they’re done running the tests. I do know that they hang on to the vials for some period of time in case additional tests are needed, but I don’t know for how long. That’s not in my lane.
I will say this: if I am on a jury for a murder case, and it was exposed that the DNA had been obtained by some of the above-mentioned chicanery, I would vote NOT GUILTY. I am a huge 4th Amendment supporter and if there is one exception made there will be another, then another, then another, and so on...…
Sir William Blackstone: "It is better for ten guilty men to be set free rather than one innocent man to be punished."
I will say this: if I am on a jury for a murder case, and it was exposed that the DNA had been obtained by some of the above-mentioned chicanery, I would vote NOT GUILTY. I am a huge 4th Amendment supporter and if there is one exception made there will be another, then another, then another, and so on...…
Sir William Blackstone: "It is better for ten guilty men to be set free rather than one innocent man to be punished."
If the judge has allowed the evidence, as far as someone on the jury, doing their sworn duty, is concerned, it is legit evidence. If someone would let a murderer, proved by DNA evidence, go free because their panties were in a wad over how the admitted evidence was obtained, it speaks volumes to their reasoning ability.
The 4th Amendment is one of our most precious Amendments, so we shouldn't take it lightly. That being said, if your daughter was raped, and the DNA evidence was legally compared to DNA samples from a genealogy site, revealing that someone related to a person on that site had committed the rape, would you want the police to pursue the lead?
This how BTK was nabbed:
Two weeks later, a disk arrived in the mail at another TV station, along with a gold chain, a photocopied cover of a novel about a killer who bound and gagged his victims, and several 3-by-5 index cards, one of which gave instructions for communicating with BTK through the newspaper.
The disk contained one valid file bearing the message “this is a test” and directing police to read one of the accompanying index cards with instructions for further communications. In the “properties” section of the document, however, police found that the file had last been saved by someone named Dennis. They also found that the disk had been used at the Christ Lutheran Church and the Park City library.
A simple Internet search turned up a Web site for the church, which identified Dennis Rader as president of the congregation. Police quickly determined that Rader was a code compliance officer in Park City, located his address, drove past his house and saw a black Jeep Grand Cherokee registered to his son, Brian, in the driveway.
From there, prosecutors subpoenaed a tissue sample from a Pap smear done on Rader’s daughter, Kerri, at a student clinic near Kansas State University in Manhattan, which she had attended five years earlier. DNA tests on that sample showed that Kerri Rader was the daughter of BTK.
Doc Safari
02-20-19, 09:16
https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/politics/arizona/2019/02/19/arizona-bill-would-create-massive-statewide-dna-database/2873930002/
Arizona could soon be one of the first states to maintain a massive statewide DNA database.
And if the proposed legislation passes, many people — from parent school volunteers and teachers to real estate agents and foster parents — will have no choice but to give up their DNA.
Under Senate Bill 1475, which Sen. David Livingston, R-Peoria, introduced, DNA must be collected from anyone who has to be fingerprinted by the state for a job, to volunteer in certain positions or for a myriad of other reasons.
The bill would even authorize the medical examiner's office in each county to take DNA from any bodies that come into their possession.
The Department of Public Safety would maintain the collected DNA alongside the person's name, Social Security number, date of birth and last known address.
Any DNA in the database could be accessed and used by law enforcement in a criminal investigation. It could also be shared with other government agencies across the country for licensing, death registration, to identify a missing person or to determine someone's real name.
It could also be provided to someone conducting "legitimate research."
A $250 fee could be collected from a person who submits biological samples, according to the bill. It's not clear who would foot the cost for the dead.
My take: Face it. The move toward totalitarianism in this country has gained a momentum that will require a Herculean effort to stop.
FromMyColdDeadHand
02-20-19, 09:30
If the judge has allowed the evidence, as far as someone on the jury, doing their sworn duty, is concerned, it is legit evidence. If someone would let a murderer, proved by DNA evidence, go free because their panties were in a wad over how the admitted evidence was obtained, it speaks volumes to their reasoning ability.
The 4th Amendment is one of our most precious Amendments, so we shouldn't take it lightly. That being said, if your daughter was raped, and the DNA evidence was legally compared to DNA samples from a genealogy site, revealing that someone related to a person on that site had committed the rape, would you want the police to pursue the lead?
This how BTK was nabbed:
Two weeks later, a disk arrived in the mail at another TV station, along with a gold chain, a photocopied cover of a novel about a killer who bound and gagged his victims, and several 3-by-5 index cards, one of which gave instructions for communicating with BTK through the newspaper.
The disk contained one valid file bearing the message “this is a test” and directing police to read one of the accompanying index cards with instructions for further communications. In the “properties” section of the document, however, police found that the file had last been saved by someone named Dennis. They also found that the disk had been used at the Christ Lutheran Church and the Park City library.
A simple Internet search turned up a Web site for the church, which identified Dennis Rader as president of the congregation. Police quickly determined that Rader was a code compliance officer in Park City, located his address, drove past his house and saw a black Jeep Grand Cherokee registered to his son, Brian, in the driveway.
From there, prosecutors subpoenaed a tissue sample from a Pap smear done on Rader’s daughter, Kerri, at a student clinic near Kansas State University in Manhattan, which she had attended five years earlier. DNA tests on that sample showed that Kerri Rader was the daughter of BTK.
Legal don't make it right. I know what you are saying, but there are all kinds of cool evidence that we could use to help solve cases. The use of secondary evidence is a pretty slippery slope. Like tracking every phone, but yours and then looking at the resulting data that has to be yours. They didn't look for your phone, they just identified everyone elses.
What we have all historically considered to be privacy was private largely because the technology didn't exist for more intrusion. A broad DNA database is just the very beginning of government intrusion into what we all had previously thought represented privacy. As technology advances...if they can do it, they will do it.
Doc Safari
02-20-19, 11:28
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/world-news/758713/fbi-dna-file-rapid-dna-act-donald-trump-rutherford-institute-john-whitehead
President Donald Trump has signed the Rapid DNA Act into law which means the police can routinely take DNA samples from people who are arrested but not yet convicted of a crime.
The law, which was signed in 2017 and comes into effect this year, will require several states to connect Rapid DNA machines to Codis – the national DNA database controlled by the FBI.
These machines, which are portable and about the same size as a desktop printer, are expected to become as routine a process as taking fingerprints.
But John W. Whitehead from The Rutherford Institute believes it is a sinister development which will make everyone a suspect.
Speaking to Daily Star Online, he said: “The fact of the matter is that these machines are not full-proof.
“But we could look at a situation in which someone could be arrested, have their mouth swabbed and then be charged within hours after generating a DNA profile.
“We are looking at the erosion of the concept of innocent before proven guilty because it will allow police to go on fishing expeditions.
“When you sit on a park bench, you shed DNA. That is now up for grabs by police who could swab it, and run it through a DNA database. If they find a match, or if misconduct occurred anywhere in the vicinity where your DNA was found, you might find yourself charged with a crime you never committed merely because you happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
“Even people who aren’t charged with major crimes could have their DNA put on file.
“People who are just seen as suspicious could have their genetic makeup stored in a criminal database.”
John added that until recently the government was required to adhere to certain restrictions on how, when and where it could access someone’s DNA.
But now it has been changed with the US Supreme Court ruling and heralds in a loss of privacy, he claims.
John also says hospitals are taking and storing newborn babies’ DNA often without the parent’s consent.
All 50 US states control their DNA databases but increasingly much of the data is linked to the FBI database.
He added: “Don’t forget the FBI had a file to take down Martin Luther King because he stood against the state on segregation.
“They also kept a file on John Lennon because he was against the war in Vietnam.
“The government are not saints and the FBI certainly isn’t.
“People need to stand up and take notice before it is too late because we are heading toward an Orwellian totalitarian state.”
My take: Living in a low tech Third World country looks better and better every day.
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/world-news/758713/fbi-dna-file-rapid-dna-act-donald-trump-rutherford-institute-john-whitehead
My take: Living in a low tech Third World country looks better and better every day.
Until you die of cholera...........................
Doc Safari
02-20-19, 11:33
Until you die of cholera...........................
I was being facetious.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
02-20-19, 11:35
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/world-news/758713/fbi-dna-file-rapid-dna-act-donald-trump-rutherford-institute-john-whitehead
My take: Living in a low tech Third World country looks better and better every day.
By all means, move to one.
I was being facetious.
I know....but it was still funny.... :jester:
By all means, move to one.
and start a civil war thread. See how that works out for ya.
If the judge has allowed the evidence, as far as someone on the jury, doing their sworn duty, is concerned, it is legit evidence. If someone would let a murderer, proved by DNA evidence, go free because their panties were in a wad over how the admitted evidence was obtained, it speaks volumes to their reasoning ability.
The 4th Amendment is one of our most precious Amendments, so we shouldn't take it lightly. That being said, if your daughter was raped, and the DNA evidence was legally compared to DNA samples from a genealogy site, revealing that someone related to a person on that site had committed the rape, would you want the police to pursue the lead?
This how BTK was nabbed:
Two weeks later, a disk arrived in the mail at another TV station, along with a gold chain, a photocopied cover of a novel about a killer who bound and gagged his victims, and several 3-by-5 index cards, one of which gave instructions for communicating with BTK through the newspaper.
The disk contained one valid file bearing the message “this is a test” and directing police to read one of the accompanying index cards with instructions for further communications. In the “properties” section of the document, however, police found that the file had last been saved by someone named Dennis. They also found that the disk had been used at the Christ Lutheran Church and the Park City library.
A simple Internet search turned up a Web site for the church, which identified Dennis Rader as president of the congregation. Police quickly determined that Rader was a code compliance officer in Park City, located his address, drove past his house and saw a black Jeep Grand Cherokee registered to his son, Brian, in the driveway.
From there, prosecutors subpoenaed a tissue sample from a Pap smear done on Rader’s daughter, Kerri, at a student clinic near Kansas State University in Manhattan, which she had attended five years earlier. DNA tests on that sample showed that Kerri Rader was the daughter of BTK.
The BTK example is a legit use of investigative tools and information gleaned directly from the killer to develop PC. They could've just as easily followed him around and collected his direct DNA after examining the evidence he volunteered to the TV station.
Taking DNA that was passively skimmed across the entire ancestry industry is IMO, akin to parallel construction. It's just like collecting everyone's phone and data across cellular and the internet to secretly build databases. Nothing about this is materially different from spying on the populace by trapping wired communications such as old school land lines. It is spying on the American people.
Now I realize that most prosecutors and courts are going to conceal how the police initially targeted the accused for the crime from jurors (just as they did with parallel construction cases). But as a matter of the 4th Amendment, this should be cause to disregard the evidence if that's the foundation of the prosecution's case. In other words, this is exactly what jury nullification is for.
The legal system will continually push the envelope to skirt the Bill of Rights. It's just human nature. Our job is to push back.
Doc Safari
02-20-19, 12:43
By all means, move to one.
and start a civil war thread. See how that works out for ya.
I was being facetious.
FromMyColdDeadHand
02-20-19, 13:33
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/world-news/758713/fbi-dna-file-rapid-dna-act-donald-trump-rutherford-institute-john-whitehead
My take: Living in a low tech Third World country looks better and better every day.
People actually get vaccinated there...
By all means, move to one.
The reality is that you don't have to move, the 3rd world countries are coming here...
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