View Full Version : Canted crosshairs...common issue?
BLUF: See post 25. The issue appears to have been me. Feel free to read through the thread for your increased knowledge. Original post below:
I'm about to send a second scope back to an optics company that is well-known and supported on this forum, due to canted crosshairs. This is the second scope I've sent back for this same issue, and I've only owned half a dozen scopes. Is this a pretty common QC issue for optics manufacturers?
This scope has an MSRP of over $550, so while it's not a Nightforce or a Razor, I'd expect better at its price point. The other scope I've sent in had an MSRP of over $700.
EDIT-Both scopes I'm referring to were purchased used through this forum, so that adds another degree of complexity to this issue.
bamashooter
02-03-19, 10:24
I've had several, all under 500.00 and no canted crosshairs. A few on ARs, a few on hunting rifles, two on .22s.
mebiuspower
02-03-19, 10:35
Let me guess the name starts with a V?
just a scout
02-03-19, 11:32
Dumb question but did it get mounted straight and correctly tight to begin with? I had a scope that I thought the reticle canted. Turned out I forgot to lock tire the rings screws and they backed out after a few rounds.
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I have a Vortex stuck on a USPS truck somewhere in the Midwest I’m guessing, ironically held up by the Polar Vortex! Same issue, canted reticle. Was used for 4 years on a bolt gun, tracked well, no issues. Got it out for a range day when I discovered it. Absolute mystery to me as it had taken no knocks and it shot well the previous outing. This one was an FFP closer to $1k msrp.
Let me guess the name starts with a V?
Absolutely. Similar experiences on your side of the house?
Dumb question but did it get mounted straight and correctly tight to begin with? I had a scope that I thought the reticle canted. Turned out I forgot to lock tire the rings screws and they backed out after a few rounds.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
I installed it using levels like I normally do. A big part of my day job includes things being straight and true/square to the eye, so I usually notice any cant immediately. I'll be double checking, but I don't think it's the installation.
I have a Vortex stuck on a USPS truck somewhere in the Midwest I’m guessing, ironically held up by the Polar Vortex! Same issue, canted reticle. Was used for 4 years on a bolt gun, tracked well, no issues. Got it out for a range day when I discovered it. Absolute mystery to me as it had taken no knocks and it shot well the previous outing. This one was an FFP closer to $1k msrp.
That's the worse part of this to me. It's a pretty big time loss when gear fails for no reason. Ironically, I've had a Burris Fullfield 2 that gets past from rifle to rifle when it's being tested, and it's much cheaper than the brand I'm having issues with.
mebiuspower
02-03-19, 14:38
That's the worse part of this to me. It's a pretty big time loss when gear fails for no reason.
Dat VIP warranty tho.
Honestly, which scope manufacturer brags about over-staffing their warranty department? It's like, hey, buy a Kia because it has a 10 year warranty.
I've been to a scope manufacturer where they don't actually have any warranty department, the people that built you your scope are the same people that repairs it.
That's the worse part of this to me. It's a pretty big time loss when gear fails for no reason. Ironically, I've had a Burris Fullfield 2 that gets past from rifle to rifle when it's being tested, and it's much cheaper than the brand I'm having issues with.
While I can do without the inconvenience I'm not sweating it. Stuff fails but I agree, when it's for no reason, kind of a head scratcher. I just hope it comes back tracking as well as it did.
I've been to a scope manufacturer where they don't actually have any warranty department, the people that built you your scope are the same people that repairs it.
Who is your preferred scope brand?
just a scout
02-03-19, 15:04
Not for nothing, but I’ve always had tremendous luck with Trijicon. The most warranty work I’ve had was replacing the tritium when it got too old and got back a completely rebuilt scope. At no cost.
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VortexOptics
02-03-19, 15:19
I'm about to send a second scope back to an optics company that is well-known and supported on this forum, due to canted crosshairs. This is the second scope I've sent back for this same issue, and I've only owned half a dozen scopes. Is this a pretty common QC issue for optics manufacturers?
This scope has an MSRP of over $550, so while it's not a Nightforce or a Razor, I'd expect better at its price point. The other scope I've sent in had an MSRP of over $700.
Appreciate you trying to keep it candid, but it's a Vortex scope so let's just get that out in the clear. Canted reticles are not a common occurrence by any means. Does it happen? Out of millions of scopes out there sure it can happen and has happened and we're happy to take care of that if/when it is the case.
To hear that you've had two is concerning for sure. Out of curiosity, when you're seeing these canted reticles, are they only very slightly canted or are they extremely glaringly canted? The majority of the times we see scopes coming back for canted reticles, it's due to one or more of the following issues (Enough so we made a few videos about it)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMqL17KwcoA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfLlKE1QjW0
Either way, that's the pits that you've had to deal with this and we're going to make it right for sure. Can you please shoot me an e-mail when you get the chance? jchamilton@vortexoptics.com
Thanks
Appreciate you trying to keep it candid, but it's a Vortex scope so let's just get that out in the clear. Canted reticles are not a common occurrence by any means. Does it happen? Out of millions of scopes out there sure it can happen and has happened and we're happy to take care of that if/when it is the case.
To hear that you've had two is concerning for sure. Out of curiosity, when you're seeing these canted reticles, are they only very slightly canted or are they extremely glaringly canted? The majority of the times we see scopes coming back for canted reticles, it's due to one or more of the following issues (Enough so we made a few videos about it)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMqL17KwcoA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfLlKE1QjW0
Either way, that's the pits that you've had to deal with this and we're going to make it right for sure. Can you please shoot me an e-mail when you get the chance? jchamilton@vortexoptics.com
Thanks
Appreciate the response here. I would guess mine is 2-3* off. Will send you a note shortly.
Appreciate you trying to keep it candid, but it's a Vortex scope so let's just get that out in the clear. Canted reticles are not a common occurrence by any means. Does it happen? Out of millions of scopes out there sure it can happen and has happened and we're happy to take care of that if/when it is the case.
To hear that you've had two is concerning for sure. Out of curiosity, when you're seeing these canted reticles, are they only very slightly canted or are they extremely glaringly canted? The majority of the times we see scopes coming back for canted reticles, it's due to one or more of the following issues (Enough so we made a few videos about it)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMqL17KwcoA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfLlKE1QjW0
Either way, that's the pits that you've had to deal with this and we're going to make it right for sure. Can you please shoot me an e-mail when you get the chance? jchamilton@vortexoptics.com
Thanks
Thank you for the reply sir/ma'am, I was going to send you guys an email tonight. I'll watch the videos and send you an e-mail.
(The first scope was glaringly so, the second is minor.)
VortexOptics
02-03-19, 15:48
Dat VIP warranty tho.
Honestly, which scope manufacturer brags about over-staffing their warranty department? It's like, hey, buy a Kia because it has a 10 year warranty.
I've been to a scope manufacturer where they don't actually have any warranty department, the people that built you your scope are the same people that repairs it.
Hate to even entertain comments like this on a thread about someone else's issue with a product of ours that we're looking forward to making right, but sounds like a lot of assumptions being made here without having seen Vortex in person like that other scope brand to get real information with your own eyes. You should come by some time.
bamashooter
02-03-19, 16:40
Never knew the flashlight method. Nice alternative. For as long as I can remember, I've used the plumb bob method. My plumb bob is a key fob (previously a bolt) suspended from a string of 0.75-0.80mm diameter. Pretty thin. Normally, at the distance I perform this preliminary task, it turns out that my plumb bob line is spot on or extremely close to the thickness of the crosshairs. Get it right, begin the "optics" manufacturer's torque settings. Secure mount and optic to firearm. Recheck for alignment. Call it good. There has been a time or two where I needed to adjust due to the optic moving a spit during the mounting process. My last 3 have been Vortex; without issue. Regarding the second video, I dare say the vast majority of shooters cant the firearm.
OP, hope it all works out for you.
I'm going to follow the instructions in the videos that were presented and follow that with a range trip. I would definitely like to be wrong and have learned something. Thank you for everybody's comments in this thread, I should be able to update by the end of the week.
Let me add that both scopes that have been or possibly been canted were purchased used through the forum, so that adds another degree of unknown. I will edit the original post to reflect that.
bamashooter
02-03-19, 20:05
2-3" off relative to what? Just curious when you mentioned "inches". How many degrees do the crosshairs appear canted in relation to the body?
3-4" off relative to what? Just curious when you mentioned "inches". How many degrees do the crosshairs appear canted in relation to the body?
May I ask which post you are questioning? My scope appears 5 or so degrees off, initially. I'll test mine against a Plumb line and see where I end up.
bamashooter
02-03-19, 21:17
May I ask which post you are questioning? My scope appears 5 or so degrees off, initially. I'll test mine against a Plumb line and see where I end up.
Sorry about that. I was referencing member Vegas. And the anomaly was actually 2-3". Yep, a plumb line tells all assuming the optic body is positioned true either mounted or "bench" testing.
Appreciate the response here. I would guess mine is 2-3* off. Will send you a note shortly.
Sorry about that. I was referencing member Vegas. And the anomaly was actually 2-3". Yep, a plumb line tells all assuming the optic body is positioned true either mounted or "bench" testing.
Quoted my post for you... * is for degrees because inches would be silly and I don’t know where the degrees symbol is on the keyboard. Kinda batting zero there bamashooter. Must be all the Super Bowl libations.
bamashooter
02-04-19, 08:58
Quoted my post for you... * is for degrees because inches would be silly and I don’t know where the degrees symbol is on the keyboard. Kinda batting zero there bamashooter. Must be all the Super Bowl libations.
One of those more frequent days. Too bad it wasn't just 2-3" vs 2-3°. BTW, typically you can activate the [num lock] key and do a "alt + 248" using the num lock keys to enter the ° symbol. Sometimes it's "alt + 176".
Appreciate you trying to keep it candid, but it's a Vortex scope so let's just get that out in the clear. Canted reticles are not a common occurrence by any means.
Since it's out in the open, I will say that I have also had a problem with a canted reticle, and it was a Vortex scope (Viper PST 1-4x with the MOA reticle) that I purchased new from a well know vendor. It was on a 3 gun competition gun and it took me a while to be 100% sure the problem was not caused by something I did (like mounting it incorrectly or knocking it when I was handling it rough).
It kept getting worse and worse (rotating more and more) which actually helped me realize it was the scope and not me. I had never heard about a twisted reticle until then. Once I was sure there was a problem with the scope, I contacted Vortex. They were easy to work with, I sent it in, they repaired it (I think it was a weak glue/adhesive issue), and I have been using it since with no problems.
I will say one thing. Even with a significantly rotated reticle (right before I sent it back to Vortex), it was still shooting exactly where it was zero'd. I had it zero'd at 200 yards, and I was hitting multiple steel targets (relatively small ones) at 200 yards in a match with no problems. I couldn't believe it, and some of my fellow competitors were impressed too.
As someone mentioned, the biggest problem is that it's a significant time loss to remove, send back, remount, etc.
Joe Mamma
SomeOtherGuy
02-04-19, 13:18
OP, while some of your question was answered, the long and short is that reticle cant is a quality control issue, and some companies do better QC than others. I'm surprised you had two Vortex scopes in a row, as they are not known for this issue. Leupold is notorious for canted reticles as they have, or at least recently (last 2-3 years) had a policy that 2-3 degrees from vertical was good enough. Maybe they finally saw the light and changed that, I don't know. Steiner also had cant issues on the T5 series when it was introduced, but the early T5's had lots of issues, and to my knowledge this is not a general Steiner issue.
It would be possible to see this or any other QC issue on a scope from any brand, but it should be rare on any scope over $500. I have seen other quality issues on expensive scopes from several major brands. The fewest reported problems seem to be on the brands without any offerings under $500, go figure...
OP, while some of your question was answered, the long and short is that reticle cant is a quality control issue, and some companies do better QC than others. I'm surprised you had two Vortex scopes in a row, as they are not known for this issue. Leupold is notorious for canted reticles as they have, or at least recently (last 2-3 years) had a policy that 2-3 degrees from vertical was good enough. Maybe they finally saw the light and changed that, I don't know. Steiner also had cant issues on the T5 series when it was introduced, but the early T5's had lots of issues, and to my knowledge this is not a general Steiner issue.
It would be possible to see this or any other QC issue on a scope from any brand, but it should be rare on any scope over $500. I have seen other quality issues on expensive scopes from several major brands. The fewest reported problems seem to be on the brands without any offerings under $500, go figure...
A friend of mine had this very problem with a Leupold Mk6 about a year ago. It took them quite a while to fix it and get it back to him too.
I have a leupold vx6 with a canted reticle.
I kinda feel that this post deserves an update based on Vortex's willingness to step in to advise a solution, and take appropriate credit for their product, whether good or bad.
I watched the videos on mounting the scope with a plumb line versus levels, canting the rifle while mounting it in the shoulder pocket, etc. Then I remounted the scope using the plumb line method, and have used the scope since then to put 341 rounds through the rifle during semi-precision and precision work. I've had no problems with the scope since remounting it, and the tracking, etc, has held true out to 700 yards (that's as far as I've taken it so far). I would guess that the top of the turret sits a few degrees different than the reticle, but in using the plumb line and testing from there, all my adjustments have held true. The videos suggest this can happen. I also wonder if using the level method was combining with a slight user induced cant to make things seem worse than they were.
Either way, the problem appears to have been me. I'll update the original post as well.
We have used every scope brand possible and the only scope that we never had any issues with has been Night Force.
Outlander Systems
07-12-19, 08:16
Gentlemanly of you to fall on your sword.
The absolute most accurate method of aligning a scope is using a plumb-line. As well, a bubble level, while mocked by big dicked sniper daddies, can absolutely help diagnose canting on the shooter's end, if installed properly.
Finally, following the manufacturer's torque recommendations is also an extremely good idea.
I kinda feel that this post deserves an update based on Vortex's willingness to step in to advise a solution, and take appropriate credit for their product, whether good or bad.
I watched the videos on mounting the scope with a plumb line versus levels, canting the rifle while mounting it in the shoulder pocket, etc. Then I remounted the scope using the plumb line method, and have used the scope since then to put 341 rounds through the rifle during semi-precision and precision work. I've had no problems with the scope since remounting it, and the tracking, etc, has held true out to 700 yards (that's as far as I've taken it so far). I would guess that the top of the turret sits a few degrees different than the reticle, but in using the plumb line and testing from there, all my adjustments have held true. The videos suggest this can happen. I also wonder if using the level method was combining with a slight user induced cant to make things seem worse than they were.
Either way, the problem appears to have been me. I'll update the original post as well.
RKB Armory
07-12-19, 08:33
Those are really good videos posted by Vortex. Very helpful. Thank you. Even people that have mounted scopes before should really watch.
Outlander Systems
07-12-19, 08:38
I was mocked, mercilessly, by a forum member for using the flashlight/plumb-line method.
His adherence to the use of shim kits is relying entirely on the machining of the scope body. This is akin to treating the symptoms and not the cause.
Those are really good videos posted by Vortex. Very helpful. Thank you. Even people that have mounted scopes before should really watch.
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