US Army testing new DMR

[Slater]

Looks high speed. Is that a Harris bipod?:

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2019/02/06/us-army-testing-new-squad-dmr-at-fort-bliss/

[gaijin]

Nice.

I'd like to shoot one.
And yes, it appears to be a Harris BP.

[MountainRaven]

Am I alone in think it's kinda funny that 4-17 Infantry Battalion is testing an HK417?

[ALCOAR]

Looks like even HK decided that Keymod was dead. Apparently they took a cue from Bill Geissele as well. That rail looks like something Geissele would have done. Dogbone nut, twin bolts into a barrel nut design. It's basically a large frame MK8 from the looks of it. First HK AR type I've seen with a rail that looks modern.

[pointblank4445]

Looks like even HK decided that Keymod was dead. Apparently they took a cue from Bill Geissele as well. That rail looks like something Geissele would have done. Dogbone nut, twin bolts into a barrel nut design. It's basically a large frame MK8 from the looks of it. First HK AR type I've seen with a rail that looks modern.

Because it IS a Geissele rail

[OldState]

Very curious about feedback on that suppressor. I was all but set in getting one until a guy at Silencer Shop talked me out of it. Have to admit, the design looks pretty good and the Army seems to like it.

[Failure2Stop]

Looks like even HK decided that Keymod was dead. Apparently they took a cue from Bill Geissele as well. That rail looks like something Geissele would have done. Dogbone nut, twin bolts into a barrel nut design. It's basically a large frame MK8 from the looks of it. First HK AR type I've seen with a rail that looks modern.

The change from the HK negative-space mounting system to M-LOK was at the request of the Army.

[Defaultmp3]

Looks like even HK decided that Keymod was dead.FWIW, H&K never used actual KeyMod, HKey was their own propreitary mounting system, like AI's KeySlot.


Apparently they took a cue from Bill Geissele as well. That rail looks like something Geissele would have done. Dogbone nut, twin bolts into a barrel nut design. It's basically a large frame MK8 from the looks of it. First HK AR type I've seen with a rail that looks modern.As noted, it is a Geissele handguard. However, the barrel nut design is still H&K; like the original HK416 SMR, it uses the factory barrel nut.

[Averageman]

Have Sig optics improved that much over something like Luepold?

[Buncheong]

Looks pretty awesome.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Have Sig optics improved that much over something like Luepold?

Yeah, how is this fundamentally different than the AR10ishes with 1-8 Leupys from 10 years ago? At least put it into a 6.5CM cartridge. You are going to need better than MG ammo to justify it, and if you are going to carry special ammo, you might as well carry something that pushes the punch a couple hundred yards further.

[Firefly]

But...but ..SR-25s though...

[MountainRaven]

Have Sig optics improved that much over something like Leupold?

No.

SOCOM had a recent contract that had two parts to it: Nightforce won one half with the ATACR, SiG won the other half. From what I understand, the SiG optics are not holding up very well with SOCOM - just as their red dots have not held up to use by the FBI.

[mack7.62]

No.

SOCOM had a recent contract that had two parts to it: Nightforce won one half with the ATACR, SiG won the other half. From what I understand, the SiG optics are not holding up very well with SOCOM - just as their red dots have not held up to use by the FBI.

Nightforce won the 1-8 FFP and SIG the 1-6 SFP, I was wondering how the SIG's are going to hold up.

[B Cart]

Isn't KAC making the M110 in 6.5 Creedmoor for SOCOM now? I get that this is a 0-800M DMR rifle with a 1-6, so 7.62x51 works and is readily accessible, but the advantages of 6.5CM over .308 are pretty substantial, and it would be nice to see the .mil adopt 6.5CM across the board for these type of weapons.

Also, I'm a little surprised they went with Sig and OSS for the optic and suppressor.... The ATACR 1-8 is a MUCH better scope, and there are better, more trusted suppressors to choose from.

[vicious_cb]

Isn't KAC making the M110 in 6.5 Creedmoor for SOCOM now? I get that this is a 0-800M DMR rifle with a 1-6, so 7.62x51 works and is readily accessible, but the advantages of 6.5CM over .308 are pretty substantial, and it would be nice to see the .mil adopt 6.5CM across the board for these type of weapons.

Also, I'm a little surprised they went with Sig and OSS for the optic and suppressor.... The ATACR 1-8 is a MUCH better scope, and there are better, more trusted suppressors to choose from.

Exactly, Im not a fan of introducing a 7.62 NATO caliber weapon into the squad that is primarily running 5.56. The weight penalty of the ammo and the gun itself is too much for the performance you are getting. Not to mention the 2nd and 3rd order effects like logistics burden and marksmanship/recoil penalty of a .30 caliber cartridge will make training someone to be an effective DMR MUCH more difficult than training him how to use 5.56 SPR type rifle.

For those who havent had extensive experience on 7.62 NATO gas guns, something like the SASS isnt just a bigger AR. There are so many nuances you have to learn to run it at the same effectiveness as a 5.56 gun I highly doubt soldiers will get enough trigger time to make it a really effective weapon system.

Maybe this was an effort to appease the Interim Combat Service Rifle people in Benning, but simply going to a 7.62 NATO gas gun does not a DMR make.

I probably missed a bunch of stuff. Paging Jack Leuba :D

[Averageman]

No.

SOCOM had a recent contract that had two parts to it: Nightforce won one half with the ATACR, SiG won the other half. From what I understand, the SiG optics are not holding up very well with SOCOM - just as their red dots have not held up to use by the FBI.

This was my experience with them some time ago. The red dots I got my hands on were simple crap with few redeeming qualities at all.
I could not see how they could have advanced so far that today the .mil would find them capable.
My experience;
Anything made by Sig Europe Good, anything made to be shoulder fired by Sig USA highly questionable.

[Failure2Stop]

Exactly, Im not a fan of introducing a 7.62 NATO caliber weapon into the squad that is primarily running 5.56. The weight penalty of the ammo and the gun itself is too much for the performance you are getting. Not to mention the 2nd and 3rd order effects like logistics burden and marksmanship/recoil penalty of a .30 caliber cartridge will make training someone to be an effective DMR MUCH more difficult than training him how to use 5.56 SPR type rifle.

For those who havent had extensive experience on 7.62 NATO gas guns, something like the SASS isnt just a bigger AR. There are so many nuances you have to learn to run it at the same effectiveness as a 5.56 gun I highly doubt soldiers will get enough trigger time to make it a really effective weapon system.

Maybe this was an effort to appease the Interim Combat Service Rifle people in Benning, but simply going to a 7.62 NATO gas gun does not a DMR make.

I probably missed a bunch of stuff. Paging Jack Leuba :D

The morphing of CSASS into DMR is interesting.
All else aside, the choice for a 1-6 optic for this application is not what I would have recommended. My understanding is that it came down to cost:benefit, and since the DM is by nature a rifleman and an integral part of the squad, he has to retain the ability to do basic rifleman stuff, which often outweighs those precision tasks that he isn't terribly well prepared for anyway. So, a relatively low cost optic was selected to fill the gap. It's still a decent piece of glass, so at least there's that, but putting that same optic on an M4 with M855A1 would give the user about the same level of mid-range performance (what the DMR covers anyway), at a significantly reduced weight and recoil burden. All too many people don't realize that a critical aspect of DM employment is that he has to work alone, without a spotter, to call wind on the fly, and self-correct misses. Big part of correcting a miss is SEEING the miss, and 6x is just too low with a real-world backdrop to consistently spot impact past a couple hundred meters, especially with a heavy recoiling rifle that will likely pull observation off of the impact area.

And that's before discussing soldier load, logistics, and chain of succession.

But hey, nobody asked me, and overall the intent is to field the NGSW (rifle and AR) anyway in the next few years, theoretically making all of this moot.

[Slater]

Does the German Army employ their G28E's in a similar manner?

[BallisticHarmony]

I know that this package was selected for cost and convenience reasons, but I think it could've been way better. An alternative setup that probably would've been more effective would be:

14.5" SR-25 CC or M110 equivalent in FDE
1-8 ATACR in Scalarworks LEAP Mount
Knights QDC can, CQB size if intended to stay on while running around inside or CRS/PRS if prone only (Anyone know when the OSS is designed to be deployed? All the time?) in FDE
Knights Precision Bipod
UBR Gen2 Stock in FDE
MOE K2+ Grip in FDE
MAWL DA in FDE
M600DF in FDE
7.62 XM1158 ADVAP

A guy can dream

[1168]

I, too thought it strange that they are giving up mag and ammo compatibility for a SDM-R. I feel like most DM’s would be better served with a 16” 5.56 gun with a free float handguard and 77gr ammo with a decent optic that maxes out at 8x or 10x.

[vicious_cb]

The morphing of CSASS into DMR is interesting.
All else aside, the choice for a 1-6 optic for this application is not what I would have recommended. My understanding is that it came down to cost:benefit, and since the DM is by nature a rifleman and an integral part of the squad, he has to retain the ability to do basic rifleman stuff, which often outweighs those precision tasks that he isn't terribly well prepared for anyway. So, a relatively low cost optic was selected to fill the gap. It's still a decent piece of glass, so at least there's that, but putting that same optic on an M4 with M855A1 would give the user about the same level of mid-range performance (what the DMR covers anyway), at a significantly reduced weight and recoil burden. All too many people don't realize that a critical aspect of DM employment is that he has to work alone, without a spotter, to call wind on the fly, and self-correct misses. Big part of correcting a miss is SEEING the miss, and 6x is just too low with a real-world backdrop to consistently spot impact past a couple hundred meters, especially with a heavy recoiling rifle that will likely pull observation off of the impact area.

And that's before discussing soldier load, logistics, and chain of succession.

But hey, nobody asked me, and overall the intent is to field the NGSW (rifle and AR) anyway in the next few years, theoretically making all of this moot.

I knew I forgot something. If that were the case, would there be a hardware solution to the problem? I dont know how your personal SR-25s are set up but would maxing out recoil reduction be a top priority if for someone running a 7.62 DMR alone? Would a muzzle break + suppressor combo provide enough recoil reduction to spot your own misses?

I totally understand the 1-6x decision, I would not be happy if someone decided that I should be kicking in doors with a 2.5-10x or 3-9x optic either.

If you absolutely had to have a new caliber, would .224 Valkyrie be an option to get that magical 800-1000m performance without the weight and recoil penalty? Is KAC looking into this as SR-15 SPR/DMR option?

[1168]

Would a muzzle break + suppressor combo provide enough recoil reduction to spot your own misses?

I totally understand the 1-6x decision, I would not be happy if someone decided that I should be kicking in doors with a 2.5-10x or 3-9x optic either.


Muzzle break plus suppressor is equal to flash hider plus suppressor in recoil reduction.

What if you had to kick doors with a 4x ACOG? Is that a problem?

[ALCOAR]

I'm not sure what the British MoD/military's form of a DMR is within their structure, however I'm almost certain it exists, and utilized very effectively by the L129A1.

They certainly found a reason for the need, and then once they found their solution they continued to double down on it. If you look at hundreds of pics of L129A1s in the field in Afghanistan, they are sprinkled out like a DMR would be in a squad. They are now currently creating a new L129A1 designation for a sniper support rifle using a specific type of ammo, much like the L129A1 called for using Radway Ball ammo out to ranges of 800m IIrc.

Take any small frame AR in any of the new enhanced calibers and put it up against a 16" properly built large frame .308 AR at 1k and see for yourself just how much easier it is for a .308 gun to buck the wind, and project significant energy on target over the small frame calibers especially 5.56.

Spotting your misses is extremely dependent on one's background even if you have a trained spotter. A spotter needs splash to make accurate calls vs. watching trace which can't always be seen anyways in my own experience. Many people including myself have shot successfully by themselves, and seen their own splash. I'd rather have a spotter shooting long range than not, but it's not a requirement for success in making hits LR.

Here is a video of myself with a friend spotting...it has a spotter 25x cam that gives you idea of what a spotter sees. Rarely in that environment did I not see everything going on with a 10x NF.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KXS8i8tFQI&feature=em-comments

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

A lot of people were shot in WWII by snipers with 10x and under scopes- and a DMR isn't a sniper. 224V would be interesting if only that it would blur the line between the Ar10 and M4- except you need a 20+ inch barrel to really get all of that potential out of the cartridge. Sure, your long rang hits might go up, but you aren't bring the hurt like a 7.62 round. Heck, 6.8 might be better with shorter barrels and the ranges.

[turnburglar]

Does anyone know what kind of ammo they might be fielding in this CSASS?

Is it still a 175 SMK or something newer?

[Failure2Stop]

Does anyone know what kind of ammo they might be fielding in this CSASS?
Is it still a 175 SMK or something newer?

This isn't CSASS.
CSASS is still tied to M118LR.
The DMR is tied to M80A1.

[Failure2Stop]

I knew I forgot something. If that were the case, would there be a hardware solution to the problem? I dont know how your personal SR-25s are set up but would maxing out recoil reduction be a top priority if for someone running a 7.62 DMR alone? Would a muzzle break + suppressor combo provide enough recoil reduction to spot your own misses?

I totally understand the 1-6x decision, I would not be happy if someone decided that I should be kicking in doors with a 2.5-10x or 3-9x optic either.

If you absolutely had to have a new caliber, would .224 Valkyrie be an option to get that magical 800-1000m performance without the weight and recoil penalty? Is KAC looking into this as SR-15 SPR/DMR option?

In many places you can spot impact with naked eye, so it's really less about magnification and more about being able to see what you need to see with regard to your background. Learning how to manage recoil is more important than adding a flash hider. In 2017 I put my money where my mouth is and shot the PRS Gas Gun Series in Tactical Heavy with a 16" 7.62mm rifle with a suppressor. I came in 2nd, at 99.75% of 1st place (https://www.precisionrifleseries.com/profiles/standings/GH/?year=2017 just drag the scroll bar down to Tac Heavy for verification of claim). I was able to do well because I could spot my misses and adjust quickly. I was generally at 13x magnification, using a NightForce ATACR 4-16x with T3 reticle. Recoil management through good position building is critical at this level of competition, and does a lot more for practical employment than most other areas of focus. Much like real life, only 10-20% of shots taken are from a "standard" prone/bipod position, with most from supported kneeling/standing.

The 1-6 solution that they selected is much more favorable to the 1x application than the mid-range precision application, but I'm not really surprised that they went that way. In my world, contrary past experience with other systems, I'd rather have a higher magnification optic with a top-mounted reflex optic. That would, however, pretty much triple the cost of the aiming solution they selected, which is a hard sell when the current acquisition strategy is going for even more capability in all areas.

.224 Valkyrie is not an option on the table for military acquisition. Once you start getting into alternate calibers you really need to step up significantly to really make a difference practically. 6.5 Grendel/.224 Valkyrie get stomped by .260 Rem and 6.5 Creed as it is, and the larger projectiles are much easier to stuff armor penetrating features into, and even then, it's beneficial to get even larger in projectile diameter (see NGSW/NGSAR for reference) to accommodate for the factors that make a real gain in target effect and reduction of user skill burden.

[Firefly]

I'm still curious if HK undercut or why they went that way?

Please dont say Piston. Not bad guns but the reliance on peculiar mags is briw raising.

Just curious

[Failure2Stop]

I'm still curious if HK undercut or why they went that way?
Please dont say Piston. Not bad guns but the reliance on peculiar mags is briw raising.
Just curious

HK won the CSASS program, and they rolled that to DMR since the requirements were so similar, per the Federal Acquisitions Regulations (FAR), it is preferred that current acquisitions spread rather than running another program. Big reason that the ICSR didn't move forward is that there were already two programs running with significant overlap.

HK made a good gun that passed the requirements set out per regulations. Had nothing to do operating system perception.

[Firefly]

Makes sense. Thanks for the knowledge

[BallisticHarmony]

Much like real life, only 10-20% of shots taken are from a "standard" prone/bipod position, with most from supported kneeling/standing.

That's a very interesting statistic. Could you elaborate on this? Is this the case even for a DM?

Seems to me that if 80-90% of shots aren't prone, 5.56 suddenly becomes a lot more desirable due to weight of the system.

[Failure2Stop]

That's a very interesting statistic. Could you elaborate on this? Is this the case even for a DM?
Seems to me that if 80-90% of shots aren't prone, 5.56 suddenly becomes a lot more desirable due to weight of the system.

The unspoken truth is that the prone is really only used to zero, true, and confirm data; and operationally only in prepared positions (where it's usually smarter to interact with enemy opportunities with proxies or fires that do not originate from the shooter's location). Since most of the tasks related to shooting for the Dm are internal maneuver support, they have even less luxury when it comes to making a nice shooting position. It's usually a case of being handed a s**t sandwich and just having to chew.

When it comes to use, the weight of the system with regard to field positions is of less consequence than the reduced ability to carry ammunition, having less ammunition available for initial contact, having a different ammunition type than everyone else in the element, having a different ammunition carriage than everyone else in the element, having greater ground signature, and having different trajectory and wind than everything else in the element and previously trained systems. I am a big fan of 16" 7.62 rifles, but they are niche use/specialist use equipment.

[ryanm]

I knew I forgot something. If that were the case, would there be a hardware solution to the problem? I dont know how your personal SR-25s are set up but would maxing out recoil reduction be a top priority if for someone running a 7.62 DMR alone? Would a muzzle break + suppressor combo provide enough recoil reduction to spot your own misses?

I totally understand the 1-6x decision, I would not be happy if someone decided that I should be kicking in doors with a 2.5-10x or 3-9x optic either.

If you absolutely had to have a new caliber, would .224 Valkyrie be an option to get that magical 800-1000m performance without the weight and recoil penalty? Is KAC looking into this as SR-15 SPR/DMR option?

Magpul SL with enhanced buttpad and MAMS—potentially halved felt recoil. Once running KAC bipod, DBAL, Scout light—weapon has almost no muzzle rise. Very easy to stay on target with rapid follow up shots. Bear in mind, that’s a lot of rifle fully pimped out.

[BallisticHarmony]

When it comes to use, the weight of the system with regard to field positions is of less consequence than the reduced ability to carry ammunition, having less ammunition available for initial contact, having a different ammunition type than everyone else in the element, having a different ammunition carriage than everyone else in the element, having greater ground signature, and having different trajectory and wind than everything else in the element and previously trained systems. I am a big fan of 16" 7.62 rifles, but they are niche use/specialist use equipment.

Sounds like you'd be a fan of a 16" SR-15 with 1-8 ATACR for DMR use instead of the HK offering?

When would you employ an SR-25 carbine?

[Failure2Stop]

Sounds like you'd be a fan of a 16" SR-15 with 1-8 ATACR for DMR use instead of the HK offering?
When would you employ an SR-25 carbine?

I have done a lot of work with 14.5" 5.56 rifles from Colt, FN, and KAC, as well as 18" Mk 12s, both in combat and competition. With the right cartridge, they are money, and like it or not, M855A1 crushes bodies and is pretty accurate right now. On the other side of that ammo coin, absent the armor penetration, the Gold Dot line is pretty impressive in performance, as are a few other common sources.

For DM stuff, training and the right support equipment is going to make a lot more difference in effect than a couple inches of barrel or putting 7.62 against 5.56. While I don't agree with the specifics of how the USMC approached their DM solution with the M38, it's concept is closer to reality than the Army DMR. I really feel like a 1-6/1-8 optic should be the standard optic, and the Dm optic should be in the at least 14x area top end, with a CQB dot optic placed toward the top of the optic mounting location akin to this:
http://precisionrifleblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/spuhr-mount-with-reflex-sight-mounted-at-45-degrees1.jpg?w=300
The primary purpose of the magnified optic is to find stuff to shoot, and see where the shot went so a correction can be rapidly applied.
The top dot works not only to hit stuff fast close, but also to rapidly orient the big glass.

Where does the 7.62 carbine fit in all of this?
For me, the 16" 7.62 rifle is a very good "one gun that does just about everything ok" for precision effect out to 800 meters (7.62 is easier to spot trace at distance than 5.56 generally), when you aren't counting on someone else to provide you with logistics, you aren't going to be counted on to provide the heavy lift when it comes to fire superiority through density and volume on contact, and you aren't expected to be the 1 man for enclosure work.
This is the reason that 7.62 carbines are popular in SOF units for sniper support/spotter gun and as a heavy carbine for open ground use, and not very frequently elsewhere.
I'd say that frankly, there is a greater application for 7.62 carbines in civilian hands in the US than in most military operations. They can hunt, they can compete, they can defend, and they can move. The ability to ethically take large game isn't a big factor in selecting a military platform, it is, however, something that I care about.

[BallisticHarmony]

Thank you, sir!