View Full Version : ICE raid N.C firearms manufacturer
"Gallagher said ICE officers detained 200 immigrants across the state from Monday through Thursday, in addition to another 25 in an unrelated raid on an arms manufacturing plant in Sanford."
I was reading on another site it's Bear Arms or Bear Creek Arms?!
https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/politics-government/article225944480.html
Bear Creek Arsenal. Looks like part of Moore's Moore's Machine Company. 340,000 square feet building employing 250 people. It would be hard not to find dozens of ilegales in a factory setting that size in NC. The headline just looked better raiding an arms manufacturer than a machine shop.
The_War_Wagon
02-09-19, 07:16
I can't get over how demtarded NC has become, what with sheriffs REFUSING to work with ICE to repatriate ILLEGAL FOREIGN INVADERS. :mad:
It's an embarrassment to BE from there these days. :(
Grand58742
02-09-19, 07:50
Does this pose a significant conundrum for liberals?
Libs: "Leave these undocumented workers ALONE!"
Media: "They work at an AR15 manufacturing plant..."
Libs: "GET THOSE ILLEGAL BASTARDS OUT OF THIS COUNTRY!"
The employer must do everything in their power to verify that their employees are not illegals. There's this thing called E-Verify, it's not difficult, oh and it's the law.
The employer must do everything in their power to verify that their employees are not illegals. There's this thing called E-Verify, it's not difficult, oh and it's the law.
Agree totally. By the same token by-and-large I think ICE is the same bunch of no-loads that INS was, just a different name. Always cherry picking. I'm surprised that nobody has made the connection that when the Sheriff's were cooperating ICE didn't have to beat the street and actually do their jobs.
Sometimes ICE doesn’t cooperate back
“Oh hi..yeah I got this van full of Julios with Honduran accents, no ID, military age, steely eyes, and I happened upon some credit cards, trac phones, a little sinsemilla, and a gun that the ATF said they’ll get back to me on.., Oh what’s that? Not interested? Just fingerprint and photo? You...you aren’t sending someone? No I don’t think they are actually landscaping. But but but that’s your job though..... You’ll transfer me to voicemail?? But um...”
BEEP
Cisco Opus 9 plays
Female voice
“This is Agent Pantsuit please leave a message if this is an emergency call 911”
But but but but......
Uuuuuugggghhhhhhhhh
Yeah so I agree eff ICE. They are like the ATF. Pick and choosey.
I don’t dislike the concept of Federal agencies helping (they should) but it’s pick and choosy.
Now with like kidnappings or bank robberies the FBI is Johnny On The Spot all politics aside. And most aren’t even assholes about it.
US Marshals likewise will help you bust in on thuggybear if he got a Fed Warrant. Even SS is down for a good pedo hunt (especially when they cracked out the SR15 M4s. That was wicked shit)
But ICE just is so lame and retarded and can KMA.
Big Facts
From the link in the OP: "Of the 200 individuals arrested this week, one-quarter have criminal convictions, one-fifth have pending cases and another quarter have evaded deportation orders." That equals 140 out of 200. What is the problem? With results like that I wish they would do more of this.
That is not a particularly liberal area, but becoming more so as the Triangle creeps south, and is absolutely is thick with the Latino population since it's largely rural and farm area. This raid surprises no one here.
The employer must do everything in their power to verify that their employees are not illegals. There's this thing called E-Verify, it's not difficult, oh and it's the law.
Immigration came into a friends local construction company office and demanded the E-Verify receipts for 50 odd employees. Everything was in order but after the audit they found that 11 employees had the same SS#. They tried to hold him responsible for not catching it. He told them to pound sand and fix the fed's system. They never came back! Not saying Bear Creek compiled just that system is far from perfect.
The employer must do everything in their power to verify that their employees are not illegals. There's this thing called E-Verify, it's not difficult, oh and it's the law.
Yep, I honestly don't care who they work for.
I can't get over how demtarded NC has become, what with sheriffs REFUSING to work with ICE to repatriate ILLEGAL FOREIGN INVADERS. :mad:
It's an embarrassment to BE from there these days. :(
Sometimes ICE doesn’t cooperate back
“Oh hi..yeah I got this van full of Julios with Honduran accents, no ID, military age, steely eyes, and I happened upon some credit cards, trac phones, a little sinsemilla, and a gun that the ATF said they’ll get back to me on.., Oh what’s that? Not interested? Just fingerprint and photo? You...you aren’t sending someone? No I don’t think they are actually landscaping. But but but that’s your job though..... You’ll transfer me to voicemail?? But um...”
BEEP
Cisco Opus 9 plays
Female voice
“This is Agent Pantsuit please leave a message if this is an emergency call 911”
But but but but......
Uuuuuugggghhhhhhhhh
Yeah so I agree eff ICE. They are like the ATF. Pick and choosey.
I don’t dislike the concept of Federal agencies helping (they should) but it’s pick and choosy.
Now with like kidnappings or bank robberies the FBI is Johnny On The Spot all politics aside. And most aren’t even assholes about it.
US Marshals likewise will help you bust in on thuggybear if he got a Fed Warrant. Even SS is down for a good pedo hunt (especially when they cracked out the SR15 M4s. That was wicked shit)
But ICE just is so lame and retarded and can KMA.
Big Facts
Very true and here's another look at the Sheriffs and how they may look at it. Imagine a 400 bed local jail with 600 people in it. Many won't care but here's the other side. Their budget is strained, thier resources aren't unlimited. So they're trying to keep the local criminals, the state criminals, the USMS holds, extraditions, MI's, a few misdemeanors like domestic battery, as well as the really dangerous felons. They may hold people that can't bond for up to a year, usually drug charges waiting on crime lab results or a time for a trial. Thier entire budget is based on 400 inmates, staffing levels, food, utilities, medical care, and other programs. Remember jails are not designed for punishment, just to hold those till they go to trial. Now add in some big local ICE sweep, maybe adding another 100, 200 federal prisoners. Where do they go? Remember the big federal governmet? Now come the federal lawsuits for any number of things and guess whose name is first on every one of them? It's not the ICE agent, the officer or deputy who arrested them, and very rarely the detention deputy or facility administrator, it's the Sheriff. So, if the feds won't do anything to keep them out why should the Sheriff's risk collapsing their entire piece of the criminal justice system? Put it to a local vote maybe to expand, build a lager facility via a local tax? The citizens are tired of increased taxes and often can't afford it anyway. It's a complicated dilemma with many factors involved.
Very true and here's another look at the Sheriffs and how they may look at it. Imagine a 400 bed local jail with 600 people in it. Many won't care but here's the other side. Their budget is strained, thier resources aren't unlimited. So they're trying to keep the local criminals, the state criminals, the USMS holds, extraditions, MI's, a few misdemeanors like domestic battery, as well as the really dangerous felons. They may hold people that can't bond for up to a year, usually drug charges waiting on crime lab results or a time for a trial. Thier entire budget is based on 400 inmates, staffing levels, food, utilities, medical care, and other programs. Remember jails are not designed for punishment, just to hold those till they go to trial. Now add in some big local ICE sweep, maybe adding another 100, 200 federal prisoners. Where do they go? Remember the big federal governmet? Now come the federal lawsuits for any number of things and guess whose name is first on every one of them? It's not the ICE agent, the officer or deputy who arrested them, and very rarely the detention deputy or facility administrator, it's the Sheriff. So, if the feds won't do anything to keep them out why should the Sheriff's risk collapsing their entire piece of the criminal justice system? Put it to a local vote maybe to expand, build a lager facility via a local tax? The citizens are tired of increased taxes and often can't afford it anyway. It's a complicated dilemma with many factors involved.
Yes, but what if the extra 200 bodies promise to vote for the sheriff in the next election? Will that jail then become a sanctuary jail?
Very true and here's another look at the Sheriffs and how they may look at it. Imagine a 400 bed local jail with 600 people in it. Many won't care but here's the other side. Their budget is strained, thier resources aren't unlimited. So they're trying to keep the local criminals, the state criminals, the USMS holds, extraditions, MI's, a few misdemeanors like domestic battery, as well as the really dangerous felons. They may hold people that can't bond for up to a year, usually drug charges waiting on crime lab results or a time for a trial. Thier entire budget is based on 400 inmates, staffing levels, food, utilities, medical care, and other programs. Remember jails are not designed for punishment, just to hold those till they go to trial. Now add in some big local ICE sweep, maybe adding another 100, 200 federal prisoners. Where do they go? Remember the big federal governmet? Now come the federal lawsuits for any number of things and guess whose name is first on every one of them? It's not the ICE agent, the officer or deputy who arrested them, and very rarely the detention deputy or facility administrator, it's the Sheriff. So, if the feds won't do anything to keep them out why should the Sheriff's risk collapsing their entire piece of the criminal justice system? Put it to a local vote maybe to expand, build a lager facility via a local tax? The citizens are tired of increased taxes and often can't afford it anyway. It's a complicated dilemma with many factors involved.
It's complicated because government is too big. My father was in the food service business. He bid the food service contract for our county jail. The contract required a full time licensed nutritionist on his staff. He ask if he could prepare the meals using recipes prepared by a professional rather than employe one and save the county 40K a year. They told him NO. That was 30 years ago. What is the price of being politically correct today? You can build a nice little prison with razor wire, tents and porta potties but government will spend 2K a square foot to build a jail.
Nightvisionary
02-11-19, 10:00
Immigration came into a friends local construction company office and demanded the E-Verify receipts for 50 odd employees. Everything was in order but after the audit they found that 11 employees had the same SS#. They tried to hold him responsible for not catching it. He told them to pound sand and fix the fed's system. They never came back! Not saying Bear Creek compiled just that system is far from perfect.
So your friend didn't notice that over 20% of his employees had the same social security number. Your friend is a bad American that puts greed above all else. I would not be friends with a person like that.
So your friend didn't notice that over 20% of his employees had the same social security number. Your friend is a bad American that puts greed above all else. I would not be friends with a person like that.
If the 'friend' didn't have hands on the applications, which is not that unlikely in a company employing 50, he is still responsible for making sure the folks below him know not to hire illegals.
Like you, I truly doubt this was a complete surprise to the employer. I think he was just going for plausible deniability.
The_War_Wagon
02-11-19, 12:26
It's a complicated dilemma with many factors involved.
On that basis, yes. Sheriff Arpaio just pitched a few more tents in the yard to fix it. I'd RATHER see more of that creative way of dealing with it, than flat-out refusal.
If the 'friend' didn't have hands on the applications, which is not that unlikely in a company employing 50, he is still responsible for making sure the folks below him know not to hire illegals.
Like you, I truly doubt this was a complete surprise to the employer. I think he was just going for plausible deniability.
It wasn't a surprise at all. You cannot get Americans to do manual/semi skilled labor down here. Our government pays Americans more $$$ to sit home and make babies than labor jobs pay. You hire hispanics or the work doesn't get done. You are happy to get hispanics with papers. It isn't the business owner's responsibility to fact check the papers. It's not about greed either. It is hard to find basic labor help for less than 17-18 bucks an hour unless you provide transportation and in some cases housing assistance. The reason we have illegal immigration is because Americans are paid not to work and the job has to get done. The labor shortage around here is serious enough that some of the larger companies recruit in countries like Honduras whos people can come and go freely with a valid passport. Some are willing to charter busses to bring them here. We either need shut down welfare or make it easier for law abiding hispanics to come up and work.
The reason labor jobs pay so poorly (partly) is that there are 20 million illegals happy to work them. Boot out those 20 million job competitors and the pay for labor will increase. Yes things and especially services would cost more. Americans would more likely be willing to do labor jobs if they didn’t have to compete with an illegal work force. Maybe there would be a huge recession from slack sales in landscape leaf blowers. I could live with that.
It's not rocket science, it's basic economics. It's the dirty little secret...we don't want (Hispanics) to undercut labor jobs, but we sure are willing to pay minimal cost for the services.
But the smart immigrants, legal or not, are understanding the economic landscape and how to make it work for them. First generation Mexicans are starting Mexican restaurants and charging premium price, and people are flocking to them because they are muy authentico. Even the Roach Coach that typically caters to the Latino workforce are charging a lot more, knowing that gringos will pay top dollar for taco.
Immigrants both legal and not will also typically live many working adults per household. Most Americans want to live in their own from the get go and many struggle for years. The immigrants like the Vietnamese people I worked with combined incomes to reduce housing, food and car expenses, which allowed one of them to go to trade school or college, then when they work they lend money to others to get a car or go to school. Strict culture to pay back family/friend loans. Literally a group bootstrap effort. That is why they are willing to work lower paying jobs.
I guarantee if some of the $13/ hr labor jobs paid $20/hr there would be shortage of Americans willing to work them. Corporate America and farmers wants to pay third world wages domestically so you have them as major lobbyists for illegal and legal immigration. Plus you have the green card slave labor pool for skilled tech jobs.
We need to have a planned immigration inflow that does not dramatically depress labor wages. Then strictly enforce borders and visa over stays.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
02-11-19, 15:48
I'm sure that if I perused this company's facebook, there would be plenty of MAGA and "Build the wall" posts and memes.
Doc Safari
02-11-19, 16:02
The reason labor jobs pay so poorly (partly) is that there are 20 million illegals happy to work them. Boot out those 20 million job competitors and the pay for labor will increase. Yes things and especially services would cost more. Americans would more likely be willing to do labor jobs if they didn’t have to compete with an illegal work force. Maybe there would be a huge recession from slack sales in landscape leaf blowers. I could live with that.
AMEN. In the 1990s I had several friends who worked construction. Not a single one of them can get a job in that industry now.
AMEN. In the 1990s I had several friends who worked construction. Not a single one of them can get a job in that industry now.
Yep, construction used to be a pretty decent entry job to learn a trade on the job. Downside was occasional layoffs between projects. Around here there are 9 Hispanic construction workers get every white/black/other. Contractors bid jobs then sub out to Hispanic crews, who have few if any English speakers. There is a sizable Russian community so they make up a smaller percent of subs. Most Anglos in Construction are the guys having done it 20 years and are leads or own their own business. I worked on crew a couple years ago and about 3/4 were Hispanic at the entry level in a community of maybe 1/3 Hispanic. I liked the guys individually but the shear number of them greatly depress the labor wages. Starting construction wage is no better than McDs.
Maybe there would be a huge recession from slack sales in landscape leaf blowers. I could live with that.
Maybe Americans would get off their asses and mow their own lawns.
We need to have a planned immigration inflow that does not dramatically depress labor wages.
Yeah, the big businesses that own our Congress critters are all for that. :rolleyes:
The employer must do everything in their power to verify that their employees are not illegals. There's this thing called E-Verify, it's not difficult, oh and it's the law.
Not for nothing, but E-Verify was shut down during the 33 day government shutdown. Also, E-Verify is not a federal mandate, it's voluntary. Many states have passed state laws that mandate use of E-Verify though.
http://www.numbersusa.com/jvrobb/www/nusa/weeklynewsletter/images/StateMaps/e_verify_map550px102011.jpg
* Map from 2010, which is the most recent I could find.
As another poster pointed out, E-Verify isn't foolproof either. If the data entered is valid it won't be caught, if the only difference is the person presenting the data not being the person the data represents. https://immigrationforum.org/article/error-rates-in-e-verify/
We've had several cases where I work that weren't caught by E-Verify, but were caught when the prospective employee presented fraudulent documents to the security office responsible for credentialing. Fraudulent document training and experience are second only to a willingness to NOT hire ineligible persons when it comes to employment fraud.
Here are some useful numbers when discussing the use of E-Verify: https://immigrationforum.org/article/fact-sheet-e-verify/ Some of the claims are specious at best regarding employment denials due to incorrect data. The false data can be challenged and corrected, but that takes work.
Nightvisionary
02-12-19, 14:04
It wasn't a surprise at all. You cannot get Americans to do manual/semi skilled labor down here. Our government pays Americans more $$$ to sit home and make babies than labor jobs pay. You hire hispanics or the work doesn't get done. You are happy to get hispanics with papers. It isn't the business owner's responsibility to fact check the papers. It's not about greed either. It is hard to find basic labor help for less than 17-18 bucks an hour unless you provide transportation and in some cases housing assistance. The reason we have illegal immigration is because Americans are paid not to work and the job has to get done. The labor shortage around here is serious enough that some of the larger companies recruit in countries like Honduras whos people can come and go freely with a valid passport. Some are willing to charter busses to bring them here. We either need shut down welfare or make it easier for law abiding hispanics to come up and work.
Heaven forbid your buddy should pay $17 an hour for semi skilled labor. Im sure guys like him would long for the days of pre-ban emancipation proclamation labor.
Nightvisionary
02-12-19, 14:14
AMEN. In the 1990s I had several friends who worked construction. Not a single one of them can get a job in that industry now.
I know a dreamer working for a Fortune 100 company in corporate security. Nice guy but I know there is a least 1 qualified disabled veteran that could have excelled in that position with a 70k salary and benefit package.
I know a dreamer working for a Fortune 100 company in corporate security. Nice guy but I know there is a least 1 qualified disabled veteran that could have excelled in that position with a 70k salary and benefit package.
Bad info on my part, confused dreamers with US born. My mistake.
Heaven forbid your buddy should pay $17 an hour for semi skilled labor. Im sure guys like him would long for the days of pre-ban emancipation proclamation labor.
Have you ever owned a small business? Do you think small business owners are all greedy millionaires who made their fortunes off of the backs of the downtrodden? How much would you pay a laborer whose only skill is mixing a bucket of stucco mortar? It's a balancing act. Obviously you pay what you have to pay and remain profitable or you shut down the business. The overhead (taxes and workman's comp) for an employee is 18-25% depending on the trade. Every 4 employees need a truck and tools. Every truck needs tags, insurance, fuel and maintenance. With 50 employees you need an office and warehouse. You need a couple of girls in the office for payroll and accounts payable/receivable/scheduling. Don't forget building permit fees. Maintaining your business license cost a percentage of gross income. Don't forget taxes on profit. My friend is lucky if he profits a couple of bucks an hour off of each of his employees. What is so unfair about this scenario?
Have you ever owned a small business? Do you think small business owners are all greedy millionaires who made their fortunes off of the backs of the downtrodden? How much would you pay a laborer whose only skill is mixing a bucket of stucco mortar? It's a balancing act. Obviously you pay what you have to pay and remain profitable or you shut down the business.
The overhead (taxes and workman's comp) for an employee is 18-25% depending on the trade.
Every 4 employees need a truck and tools. Every truck needs tags, insurance, fuel and maintenance. With 50 employees you need an office and warehouse. You need a couple of girls in the office for payroll and accounts payable/receivable/scheduling. Don't forget building permit fees. Maintaining your business license cost a percentage of gross income. Don't forget taxes on profit. My friend is lucky if he profits a couple of bucks an hour off of each of his employees.
What is so unfair about this scenario?
Note, Nightvisionary said semi-skilled labor. Some folks might say the business model is flawed if you can't pay a wage which will attract legal workers.
What too many concrete contractors/landscapers/roofers around these parts want to do is run immigrant crews out to job sites and drop them off while they go drink coffee. If it wasn't for the immigrants, those guys would still be working on a roof, or running a float.
Not to mention the established contractors they have run out of business by undercutting prices. I have a buddy who has a drywall company, I think I've mentioned him before, he has lost several big contracts to guys running immigrant crews, no way he can pay an American worker what those companies are paying their guys.
His workers go home at night to families. The other guy's immigrant crew all jump in their community car, head to the rundown house they all share, drink beer watch TV, go to work, send money home.
Not a lot of sorrow for the plight of your friend. On the other hand, I find it hard to get angry at the immigrants whom he employs.
You nor Nightvisionary understand the basic laws of supply and demand. I'm out of here.
You nor Nightvisionary understand the basic laws of supply and demand. I'm out of here.
Au contraire, I can draw you the diagrams, if you like.
It seems funny that on this site, with this demographic, you are defending someone who was caught using illegal immigrants.
Au contraire, I can draw you the diagrams, if you like.
It seems funny that on this site, with this demographic, you are defending someone who was caught using illegal immigrants.
My friend didn't set out to employee illegal immigrants. He hired who he could with the approval of the government. Are you by any chance a union advocate? I keep thinking about Cadillac workers getting paid 60 bucks an hour to put hubcaps on the cars.
You nor Nightvisionary understand the basic laws of supply and demand. I'm out of here.
The actual problem is not every business model is sustainable. If you have to hire illegals to realize even the thinnest profit margins, then you don't have a viable business model. Just because debbie opens a muffin shop, doesn't mean debbie is still going to be in business 6 months later.
You are correct about overhead and cost of doing business, but if your product or service can't cover those costs and provide a profit, then you might as well open a muffin shop in the mall.
I have a popular product, firearms, but the profit potential is so slim that I can't afford to hire a single employee and doing so would shift me from black ink to red ink in a matter of months. As a consequence, I can do no more business than I can manage by myself. I would have to increase sales an additional 30% to even consider hiring somebody and honestly I don't know where those additional sales would come from.
Additionally, a federally regulated business associated with firearms, you kind of have to be a moron to hire illegals. Even hiring people who have done time and had their rights restored is kind of dark territory for the firearms business.
Sustainable business model is one important factor. Another is having everyone operating under the same rules. If all your friend’s competitors could not hire illegals either then they would have to pay a reasonable wage as well.
There is a myriad of issues causing the struggle of small business and individuals. Runaway govt spending and borrowing with near zero interest rate, inflation that erodes purchasing power especially for small biz and individuals, burdensome regulation that favors corporation scale but punishes small biz, rampant illegal immigration that depresses wages, on and on.
I am totally against mandatory minimum wage. Also against importing 20 million job competitors and adding a million every year Against farm and corporate subsidies. Against spending over govt budgets and the Petro Dollar. Against “free trade” that allows slave labor countries to sell in tarting free against domestic producers who have to abide by OSHA, EPA, EEOC, DOL, IRS, FDA, etc. Against crooked unions trying to make it hard to hire entry level kids, fight against right to work and basically try to monopolize skilled labor pools.
50 years ago you could buy a house for $25,000 and a family car for $2,500, and gas was $0.32/gal. It was not hard to find high school jobs paying $3-$4/hr. And entry level jobs paying $7-$8/hr. Now a suburban house costs $350,000 in the same area, family car is at least $25,000, and gas here is right at $3.20/gal; (factor of 10-14) yet high school jobs are not paying $30-$42/hr, nor entry jobs paying $70/hr or more.
That is the major disconnect. Our money has been inflated away, and foreign competitors have flooded or markets and labor pool thanks to our politicians so our wages have stayed 1/3 to 1/10 of what they should have risen to compared to goods.
How do you unwind all that burden and drag? I don’t know, we are so far down the pipe. As improbable as cutting through it is, it still does not justify knowingly taking advantage of the destructive factors.
As Steyr says, if a business can only be profitable by a wink and a nod toward the law then it is not a sustainable business model. Just like not every person deserves to have a great job no matter how unskilled they are, not every business deserves to be successful.
My friend didn't set out to employee illegal immigrants. He hired who he could with the approval of the government.
But he paid them less then market wages, correct?
Are you by any chance a union advocate? I keep thinking about Cadillac workers getting paid 60 bucks an hour to put hubcaps on the cars.
So, because I outlined a problem that is widely known - contractors running immigrant crews negatively impacting older established contractors with American crews - I'm a union advocate?
Adrenaline_6
02-13-19, 07:35
My friend didn't set out to employee illegal immigrants. He hired who he could with the approval of the government.
The determining factor here is did he go through the motions, knowing full well he was hiring illegals and doing it anyway, paying them sub standard wages because he did his "due diligence" or was it an honest mistake? Just because he went through the legal motions and found a loophole, doesn't make it honest or right.
But he paid them less then market wages, correct?So, because I outlined a problem that is widely known - contractors running immigrant crews negatively impacting older established contractors with American crews - I'm a union advocate?
25 years ago, when the invasion started, the hispanics did price themselves below market if you paid them cash and there were contractors who did. When construction started booming labor demand increased and wages went up the contractors couldn't pay cash any longer. The cash was paid with money the contractor had paid taxes on. With higher wages paying cash was no longer profitable. That problem fixed itself years ago. Down here I'd estimate 90% of the low/no skill labor is hispanic. They set the market price. I don't know where you are but $18 an hour is more than living wage in the south.
I am not saying that didn't happen but you have to remember we have been talking about unskilled labor that most Americans refuse to do. The jobs that require skilled labor are for the most part filled by Americans. At least where I am.
Nightvisionary
02-13-19, 10:21
Have you ever owned a small business? Do you think small business owners are all greedy millionaires who made their fortunes off of the backs of the downtrodden? How much would you pay a laborer whose only skill is mixing a bucket of stucco mortar? It's a balancing act. Obviously you pay what you have to pay and remain profitable or you shut down the business. The overhead (taxes and workman's comp) for an employee is 18-25% depending on the trade. Every 4 employees need a truck and tools. Every truck needs tags, insurance, fuel and maintenance. With 50 employees you need an office and warehouse. You need a couple of girls in the office for payroll and accounts payable/receivable/scheduling. Don't forget building permit fees. Maintaining your business license cost a percentage of gross income. Don't forget taxes on profit. My friend is lucky if he profits a couple of bucks an hour off of each of his employees. What is so unfair about this scenario?
So in other words you are saying laws and ethics should only apply when they are convenient. I am sure most of us here could find ways to make more money by skirting the law but we choose to do things the right way. Perhaps if your buddy cannot successfully operate a business without violating the law maybe he should not be in business. You can continue to argue your point all day long but you have no sound moral, legal, or ethical basis from which to base your argument.
25 years ago, when the invasion started, the hispanics did price themselves below market if you paid them cash and there were contractors who did. When construction started booming labor demand increased and wages went up the contractors couldn't pay cash any longer. The cash was paid with money the contractor had paid taxes on. With higher wages paying cash was no longer profitable. That problem fixed itself years ago. Down here I'd estimate 90% of the low/no skill labor is hispanic. They set the market price. I don't know where you are but $18 an hour is more than living wage in the south.
I am not saying that didn't happen but you have to remember we have been talking about unskilled labor that most Americans refuse to do. The jobs that require skilled labor are for the most part filled by Americans. At least where I am.
I agree, $18.00 an hour is a living wage, that figures out to $36,000.00 a year, before taxes. Which is enough to raise a family of four on if both parents work. Probably not so rosy for a single worker family if the company doesn't provide some help with health insurance. But there is medicaide.
It is hard to find basic labor help for less than 17-18 bucks an hour unless you provide transportation and in some cases housing assistance.
This is what gave me the impression that your buddy was paying them less than market wages.
I agree, $18.00 an hour is a living wage, that figures out to $36,000.00 a year, before taxes. Which is enough to raise a family of four on if both parents work. Probably not so rosy for a single worker family if the company doesn't provide some help with health insurance. But there is medicaide.
It is hard to find basic labor help for less than 17-18 bucks an hour unless you provide transportation and in some cases housing assistance.
This is what gave me the impression that your buddy was paying them less than market wages.
Whether $18/hr. is liveable depends on location. Where the location of this story is, it is a liveable wage. Go 30-45 miles north, and suddenly it's not. I could not live where I do and support a family on that (I tried when I was a paramedic). Even now we are being squeezed out economically and in 10 years I'll probably will need to move another 30 miles outside where I live.
So in other words you are saying laws and ethics should only apply when they are convenient. I am sure most of us here could find ways to make more money by skirting the law but we choose to do things the right way. Perhaps if your buddy cannot successfully operate a business without violating the law maybe he should not be in business. You can continue to argue your point all day long but you have no sound moral, legal, or ethical basis from which to base your argument.
You guys must not have read my post. My friend submitted paperwork through E-Verify at the time and the people were cleared to work for him. Only after an audit was it discovered that multiple employees had the same SS#. Should he have cross checked the numbers of the thousands of laborers that he hired over many years? I don't know if he was required to. Would you condemn a gun shop owner that had a buyer complete the form, submitted it for the background check, received approval to sell then finds out later the buyer had a history of mental illness and used the gun to kill his family?? Using your logic the gun shop owner broke the law. He no more broke the law than my friend did.
Whether $18/hr. is liveable depends on location. Where the location of this story is, it is a liveable wage. Go 30-45 miles north, and suddenly it's not. I could not live where I do and support a family on that (I tried when I was a paramedic). Even now we are being squeezed out economically and in 10 years I'll probably will need to move another 30 miles outside where I live.
I agree 100% with you. The guys making $18 cannot live here either. They used to be able to live 10 miles from here but development keeps pushing them further and further away. There are people coming in from 60-75 miles away. Our county runs a low cost bus service to and from the outlying areas. One my wife's guys rides the bus and leaves home at 4am and doesn't get home until 6pm. He makes 50K here when top pay where he lives 12 bucks an hour. He is a good guy and hard worker willing to make the sacrifice for his family and lifestyle.
Whether $18/hr. is liveable depends on location. Where the location of this story is, it is a liveable wage. Go 30-45 miles north, and suddenly it's not. I could not live where I do and support a family on that (I tried when I was a paramedic). Even now we are being squeezed out economically and in 10 years I'll probably will need to move another 30 miles outside where I live.
Oh, yes, I agree totally. You can figure that out just watching some of the 'property brothers' or 'love it or list it' type shows and see that just based on housing prices.
Whether $18/hr. is liveable depends on location. Where the location of this story is, it is a liveable wage. Go 30-45 miles north, and suddenly it's not. I could not live where I do and support a family on that (I tried when I was a paramedic). Even now we are being squeezed out economically and in 10 years I'll probably will need to move another 30 miles outside where I live.
I know plenty of people who are out of work, looking for a real job who would take $18 an hour in a heartbeat. I know adults with children trying to put it together for $12 an hour. You won't have a house, won't have a new car and unexpected expenses can destroy attempts to save for christmas, birthday and other related extras.
There are still families all over this country where the kids know "these shoes need to last a year" and it's a problem if they don't and those shoes won't be nikes latest offering. I know LOTS of families living like this and they don't live in trailer parks or ghettos, they are regular people trying to make it and it's check to check and $100 is a BFD.
This is why it pisses me off when people suggest we need illegals to do the jobs americans aren't willing to do.
"This is why it pisses me off when people suggest we need illegals to do the jobs americans aren't willing to do"
Not every American is able or willing to relocate for better employment opportunities. The immigrants (both legal and not) are willing to relocate thousands of miles from their home countries with everything they own in a paper sack and risk their lives doing it. I'll say it again... The hispanics we see where I live are only competing for the no/low skilled labor jobs the local Americans will not do. Our labor rates are high because demand is greater than supply. I am sorry the same conditions don't exist nationwide.
Adrenaline_6
02-14-19, 08:22
Not every American is able or willing to relocate for better employment opportunities.
Most who aren't can't afford to pack up and move their family. It is a risk vs reward thing that everyone uses to weigh out their options. The illegals deem the reward better than the risk and vice versa. Simple math really. You should probably take willing out of the equation.
I'll say it again... The hispanics we see where I live are only competing for the no/low skilled labor jobs the local Americans will not do. Our labor rates are high because demand is greater than supply. I am sorry the same conditions don't exist nationwide.
They are competing for it because that is all they can compete for with their skill set. With that much more competition, the pay scale goes down even further because illegals are willing to do it for less, where the American threshold is higher. Take away the illegal competition and I guarantee it will pay more and working conditions improved if the demand is high..and Americans WILL be willing to do it. Another simple math equation.
Most who aren't can't afford to pack up and move their family. It is a risk vs reward thing that everyone uses to weigh out their options. The illegals deem the reward better than the risk and vice versa. Simple math really. You should probably take willing out of the equation.
They are competing for it because that is all they can compete for with their skill set. With that much more competition, the pay scale goes down even further because illegals are willing to do it for less, where the American threshold is higher. Take away the illegal competition and I guarantee it will pay more and working conditions improved if the demand is high..and Americans WILL be willing to do it. Another simple math equation.
I'm not sure the jobs illegals do can have better working conditions. From what I see South Americans doing in my area..... roofing, lawns, paving, some form of construction, concrete...etc.. it's hard work outdoors in the summer and humidity. Conditions aren't going to improve in those jobs. Those Americans collecting welfare checks aren't going to be doing these jobs. Of course it's not every single person. There are some who are just in a bad spot and would do anything to get out of that situation. I have a POS cousin whos in his late 30s and has been on disability for a long time. The government pays his rent, his car and daily living expenses because work is too stressful for him! I don't know whether he's faking it or is just that mental but a lot of people would rather do that then work manual labor
Adrenaline_6
02-14-19, 08:58
I'm not sure the jobs illegals do can have better working conditions. From what I see South Americans doing in my area..... roofing, lawns, paving, some form of construction, concrete...etc.. it's hard work outdoors in the summer and humidity. Conditions aren't going to improve in those jobs. Those Americans collecting welfare checks aren't going to be doing these jobs. Of course it's not every single person. There are some who are just in a bad spot and would do anything to get out of that situation. I have a POS cousin whos in his late 30s and has been on disability for a long time. The government pays his rent, his car and daily living expenses because work is too stressful for him! I don't know whether he's faking it or is just that mental but a lot of people would rather do that then work manual labor
When I mean conditions, I mean it in the way of benefits like better medical, 401k programs, paid vacation, sick leave, uniforms, etc. Anything that makes the job more appealing to the work force. There are always scumbags, no way around that, we just need to make being a scumbag less appealing.
"401k programs, paid vacation, sick leave, uniforms"
Do these perks normally come with positions that only require digging ditches? I don't think so. Most here are beating their chest and screaming PRO AMERICA but have no idea what makes the world go round. Ask yourself. Why would you work for less than the government will pay you to sit home?
Adrenaline_6
02-14-19, 20:07
"401k programs, paid vacation, sick leave, uniforms"
Do these perks normally come with positions that only require digging ditches? I don't think so. Most here are beating their chest and screaming PRO AMERICA but have no idea what makes the world go round. Ask yourself. Why would you work for less than the government will pay you to sit home?
I gave examples of benefits, meaning not working conditions. They were purely just examples to get what I was meaning. You went Literal Larry on me. As far as your last sentence, read my last sentence of my last post.
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