View Full Version : 6,8 SPC and 6.5 Gredel
New guy to the forum and AR's in general. Have had a Bushmaster V match for many years, just don't shoot it much, primarily because it's setup for long range shooting with a 4X14 scope.
Nearest 300 yard range is 100 miles from home so I only get there once or twice a year. We have a 200 yard outdoor range about 40 miles away and numerous 25 yard indoor ranges,
As a result I popped for a DDM4 V5 with a Trijicon 1X4 Accupower for use at those facilities.
In my neck of the woods .223's are illegal to use for deer hunting and my 30/06 or 30/30 have been doing the job for the last 45 years but I'm getting the bug to use this setup on next years hunt.
I've read a good deal about the 6.8 SPC, which DD makes an upper for, and the 6.5 Grendel, which they don't. Anyone out there using the 6.8 for deer?
My son and I have shot a few deer with both and the .300 All will do the job, keeping range, bullet selection and marksmanship in mind. You have to ask what you want the gun to do and is it worth the money to have something just for hunting. You can search all about ballistics, shooting long range target(s) etc. and decide what caliber will fit the bill, each one has it's oddities, advantages and disadvantages. Be mindful of the information you read as some folks are very biased and feed you want they want you to hear.
Having said that if you want my opinion, save your money and use what you've been using. If you are dead set on one or the other, keep it in perspective and don't have 2-2.5k tied up in something that gets used for that few short weeks. Yeah, sure you can use your 6.whazoo for other things but do you really need it? Again, both good calibers and I cleared out all of my alternate calibers, 5.56 and .308 and 6.5 Creedmoor for the bolt gun(those obsolete thingy's)
New guy to the forum and AR's in general. Have had a Bushmaster V match for many years, just don't shoot it much, primarily because it's setup for long range shooting with a 4X14 scope.
Nearest 300 yard range is 100 miles from home so I only get there once or twice a year. We have a 200 yard outdoor range about 40 miles away and numerous 25 yard indoor ranges,
As a result I popped for a DDM4 V5 with a Trijicon 1X4 Accupower for use at those facilities.
In my neck of the woods .223's are illegal to use for deer hunting and my 30/06 or 30/30 have been doing the job for the last 45 years but I'm getting the bug to use this setup on next years hunt.
I've read a good deal about the 6.8 SPC, which DD makes an upper for, and the 6.5 Grendel, which they don't. Anyone out there using the 6.8 for deer?
After doing some research I went with 6.5 Grendel, and ordered a complete upper from LaRue. https://www.larue.com/products/larue-ultimate-ar-15-upper-kit/
I went with the Grendel because it out performs 6.8 at longer ranges, Grendel ammo is more prevalent, and LaRue doesn't offer a complete upper in 6.8.
http://abesguncave.com/6-5-grendel-vs-223-556-ballistics-hunting-combat/
https://airbornecombatengineer.typepad.com/airborne_combat_engineer/2006/04/65_grendel_vs_6.html
Well, you don't do things halfway, do you? Should be a great upper.
I was interested in a 6.x AR for a while and never pulled the trigger, so to speak. I did post a question about them which brought out a lot of passion in people :)
It seems the 6.5 G is pulling ahead of the 6.8 in popularity, but either would be a good choice as a hunting round. I do like the idea of more hunters running ARs in the woods.
Andy
gunnerblue
02-10-19, 10:42
6.5 Grendel is my pick and is becoming more and more popular with more manufacturers offering complete rifles, uppers and ammo. If you reload, Lapua offers brass and there more suitable bullets available in this caliber. No experience with the 6.8 but in the .300 I’d stick to 110 gr. Barnes at supersonic velocities.
I run a 6.8 spc I built and it is treating me well.
I chose the 6.8 roughly 8 years ago, and it's worked out well. I haven't used it on deer yet, but I wouldn't hesitate at all to put it in that role.
If I were making the decision today for an all purpose 16" carbine, I'd choose the 6.8 again. If it were to be be used more in an 18" precision role (with more payload than 5.56), I'd choose 6.5 Grendel.
The 300 BLK would be cheapest, needing only a barrel change. Could easily replace a 30-30 for hunting.
If you are interested in longish range (target) shooting then the 6.5 looks better.
If mainly for hunting the 6.8 has more hunting bullet loads.
The 6.5 and 6.8 have about the same responsible hunting range. Both work well on medium game with good bullet design. The 6.5 ballistics are better at longer range, but it's honestly beyond what you should be hunting at.
There are regional differences in what is more available on the shelf. If this matters to you scout your local stores first, but both can be easily found online.
I've been using my 6.8 to hunt with for about 5 years. I looked at 300 BO and 308 when I purchased. The black out had a limited range and a quality 308 was out of the budget. For where I hunt and the conditions the 6.8 choice was clear, really comes down to preference.
Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk
sasquatchoslav
02-11-19, 06:12
I do get the allure of going away from bolt guns I did a couple of years ago will never shoot one again. I shoot a 7.62x39 AR suppressed it's such a pleasure vs bolt gun recoil and this old fart loves it! There are guys on the lease using 450 bushmaster, 300WM, 30-06, 308, 6.5 CM, 6.5G, 270, 12g slugs, .223 and I think one guy is using a 30-30 on occasion. 1 deer lost all season a young kid gut shot a doe in the swamp all the rest in the freezer. Have fun rifle shopping remember the correct number of firearms to own is always n + 1:)
OP, if you aren't going to be shooting it a lot, don't go down the rabbit hole of reloading for it. Save the brass you can readily find and sell it. Don't let training or shooting be affected by where your brass goes and trying to find it. If you do want to shoot it more than the cheap Wolf 6.5G steel case is actually decent ammo for training and reasonable accurate.
Either caliber, stay with a light 16" barrel and low power variable. You will have a light capable weapon usable for short to mid range, well within ethical distances-and user ability. Heck, my son's first 6.5G had an Aimpoint Comp M2 on it, great woods gun.
Great barrels I've had are the Wilson Combat 6.8 16" lightweight ss, AA fluted 16" 6.5G, LMT MRP 6.8 16" and a Shilen Select Match 18" 6.5G.
Let us know where you hunt, terrain and distance and I'm sure you will get guidance on optics.
constructor
02-11-19, 12:04
New guy to the forum and AR's in general. Have had a Bushmaster V match for many years, just don't shoot it much, primarily because it's setup for long range shooting with a 4X14 scope.
Nearest 300 yard range is 100 miles from home so I only get there once or twice a year. We have a 200 yard outdoor range about 40 miles away and numerous 25 yard indoor ranges,
As a result I popped for a DDM4 V5 with a Trijicon 1X4 Accupower for use at those facilities.
In my neck of the woods .223's are illegal to use for deer hunting and my 30/06 or 30/30 have been doing the job for the last 45 years but I'm getting the bug to use this setup on next years hunt.
I've read a good deal about the 6.8 SPC, which DD makes an upper for, and the 6.5 Grendel, which they don't. Anyone out there using the 6.8 for deer?like somone above said it's tough to get real facts about the two but here are a few.
6.8 ammo https://www.midwayusa.com/68mm-remington-spc/br?cid=21965
6.5 ammo https://www.midwayusa.com/65-grendel/br?cid=10207
Home of the 6.8 SPC - 68forums.com Statistics
Threads
63,709
Posts
750,132
Members
38,063
6.5 Grendel Forum : : For the 6.5 Grendel Aficionado Statistics
Threads
18,205
Posts
217,241
Members
8,483
As for opinions-I've used and sold the 300BO, Grendel and 6.8. Out of the 3 for hunting I would use the 6.8, it has more USABLE hunting bullets and starts off apx 100fps faster than the Grendel. For longer range target shooting I would use the Grendel, it has more USABLE target type bullets.
Interesting article
https://www.gunworld.com/ammo/bullet-battle-6-5-grendel-vs-6-8-remington-spc
BoringGuy45
02-19-19, 19:07
I know it's been discussed before, but let's say, theoretically, either the 6.5 Grendel or 6.8 SPC were being considered as a general purpose cartridge to replace the 5.56. I know two of the major issues this presents is that the larger bolt faces necessitated by the wider rims of the 6.5 and 6.8 make the bolts quite a bit weaker. Also, I understand that polymer mags like PMAGs and probably Lancers can't take the larger rounds if the mag is the same width and thickness as the 5.56 mags, meaning your stuck with steel and aluminum mags, or you need new lowers.
Has anything been done to fix these issues?
Not all bolts are created equal. Both LMT and JP make 6.8 SPC bolts that are enhanced to increase their durability, compared to a standard 5.56 bolt with just a modified bolt face.
5.56 magazines aren't compatible with 6.8 and 6.5mm cartridges, even with different followers. There are multiple manufacturers of each type magazines.
There are no changes required for the lower receiver.
The 6.8 is a smaller case head than 6.5 and I don't know of any trend of bolt breakage. The 6.5 is a larger diameter so the bolt is a bit weaker, but it also has a lower chamber pressure to help reduce bolt thrust. I don't know of any trend of bolt breakage in the 6.5 either.
LWRC and Magpul made a larger magwell lower and mag for the 6.8 but I don't think it really went anywhere.
I completely forgot about LWRC's SIX8. When I first read of a Magpul 6.8 magazine, I got excited.....then disappointed when I learned more.
Sulzer Firearms is also making a 6.8 receiver set for less than LWRC. I know nothing about that company’s track record, though.
Sulzer Firearms is also making a 6.8 receiver set for less than LWRC. I know nothing about that company’s track record, though.Mad Dog Weapons Systems is working with manufacturers to make a receiver set and metal magazine(s) that will allow for a cartridge OAL of 2.390"
It sounds like mags will be available for both 6.5 and 6.8 and should work for Wildcats based on these cartridges too.
The receiver sets will be based off the LWRC Six8 and will likely be similar to the Sulzer option.
Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk
constructor
02-24-19, 18:59
Not all bolts are created equal. Both LMT and JP make 6.8 SPC bolts that are enhanced to increase their durability, compared to a standard 5.56 bolt with just a modified bolt face.
5.56 magazines aren't compatible with 6.8 and 6.5mm cartridges, even with different followers. There are multiple manufacturers of each type magazines.
There are no changes required for the lower receiver.
The LWRC bolt is made from 9310 but still has the same mil spec lug geometry(width, length, height), very little gain in lug strength and only due to the use of 9310 alloy. The extractor has dual springs and is stronger than a mil spec extractor.
LMTs bolt is near identical.
JPs bolt lug design is the same as the LMT and LWRC. The only thing JP did different was copy my thicker area around the cam pin hole that I have been machining since 2009.
The lug strength of my Superbolt is 11-13% stronger than any of the bolts above, my Titan bolts are closer to 18% stronger. My 750XD and 800 series bolts are closer to 24% stronger than the LMT, LWRC or JP.
I chose 6.8spec a few times over the 6.5 grendel.
When i was doing research, the 6.8 was much easier to get. Idk how it is now but I have Gold Dots stacked pretty deep for it.
Edit** i forgot to mention that a big part of the decision had to do with the my trust in ar15performance products.
I have several of his bolts and barrels they are awesome
Mad Dog Weapons Systems is working with manufacturers to make a receiver set and metal magazine(s) that will allow for a cartridge OAL of 2.390"
It sounds like mags will be available for both 6.5 and 6.8 and should work for Wildcats based on these cartridges too.
The receiver sets will be based off the LWRC Six8 and will likely be similar to the Sulzer option.
Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk
I wonder if Grendel can get anything out of the ~ .13” potential COAL increase.
I wonder if Grendel can get anything out of the ~ .13” potential COAL increase.Maybe. Will the slight increase in OAL allow for a bullet heavier than 140gr?
If nothing else it should give a slight increase in powder capacity.
Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk
constructor
02-25-19, 08:53
Maybe. Will the slight increase in OAL allow for a bullet heavier than 140gr?
If nothing else it should give a slight increase in powder capacity.
Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk
Most of the Grendel bullets are already close to the lands. You can't load out longer or gain powder capacity or velocity if the OAL is limited by the location of the freebore.
The only way the long load mags will improve performance is IF new chambers are designed with longer freebore to allow loading longer.
Even at that 1 extra gr of powder may get another 40fps if the pressure is the same. Say a normal Grendel is loaded to 52000 psi, then you load a Grendel with a long OAL to 52000 that extra gr of powder will only increase vel about 40 fps. Anyone who has Quickload can show you the difference.
People hype "new" cartridge performance claims by comparing factory ammo performance which may be 46000psi to handloaded ammo loaded to 52-54000psi and say "see what I did, created a new cartridge that is much faster" when all they really did was increase the pressure the round is loaded to. An extra 3500-5000psi will get you another 100fps.
Most of the Grendel bullets are already close to the lands. You can't load out longer or gain powder capacity or velocity if the OAL is limited by the location of the freebore.
The only way the long load mags will improve performance is IF new chambers are designed with longer freebore to allow loading longer.
Even at that 1 extra gr of powder may get another 40fps if the pressure is the same. Say a normal Grendel is loaded to 52000 psi, then you load a Grendel with a long OAL to 52000 that extra gr of powder will only increase vel about 40 fps. Anyone who has Quickload can show you the difference.
People hype "new" cartridge performance claims by comparing factory ammo performance which may be 46000psi to handloaded ammo loaded to 52-54000psi and say "see what I did, created a new cartridge that is much faster" when all they really did was increase the pressure the round is loaded to. An extra 3500-5000psi will get you another 100fps.Sounds like pretty much the claims of increased performance for the 6.8 SPC II chamber. I think it was Western Powders that worked up loads in a SAAMI chamber then reworked the loads for a SPC II chamber. The gains in performance were small enough to be really nothing more than academic.
With all that said, the "stretch" mag well (if the idea catches on) will no doubt result in new barrels that are built to make use of the longer COAL.
At this point my interest in a longer mag would likely be to make use of 80 and 90 grain bullets in a 223 Remington. Could a 90 grain bullet loaded to 2.39" to pushed to about 2600 fps in a 223?
Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk
constructor
02-25-19, 09:49
Sounds like pretty much the claims of increased performance for the 6.8 SPC II chamber. I think it was Western Powders that worked up loads in a SAAMI chamber then reworked the loads for a SPC II chamber. The gains in performance were small enough to be really nothing more than academic.
With all that said, the "stretch" mag well (if the idea catches on) will no doubt result in new barrels that are built to make use of the longer COAL.
At this point my interest in a longer mag would likely be to make use of 80 and 90 grain bullets in a 223 Remington. Could a 90 grain bullet loaded to 2.39" to pushed to about 2600 fps in a 223?
Sent from my SM-G930P using TapatalkKind of like the claims that the WLV is almost as fast as a 6.8. Compare a WLV loaded to 58k and a 6.8 loaded to 58K.
The SPC had bullets JAMMED into the lands and the copper plated bullets were deforming in the cone causing a pressure spike so they had to download to keep safe pressures. The spcii lengthened the freebore and angled the cone allowing them to load the cartridges back up to 54k and get more velocity. Run the 6.8 up to 60k like they are with the WLV and it will push a 110gr to 2800 out of a 16" barrel.
Not a chance that a 5.56 will push a 90 to 2600 unless you use a 34" barrel.
Kind of like the claims that the WLV is almost as fast as a 6.8. Compare a WLV loaded to 58k and a 6.8 loaded to 58K.
The SPC had bullets JAMMED into the lands and the copper plated bullets were deforming in the cone causing a pressure spike so they had to download to keep safe pressures. The spcii lengthened the freebore and angled the cone allowing them to load the cartridges back up to 54k and get more velocity. Run the 6.8 up to 60k like they are with the WLV and it will push a 110gr to 2800 out of a 16" barrel.
Not a chance that a 5.56 will push a 90 to 2600 unless you use a 34" barrel.Sorry. Didn't mean to touch a nerve there.
Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk
I can't speak to specific numbers like Constructor, but I have full faith in the 6.8 as a deer rifle after taking many bucks with it. I like the cartridge and it's capabilities, but I'm not trying to replace/eclipse 5.56, which seems to be the prevalent assumption among many 6.8 skeptics. I've had mine for several years, and hand load for it. It's not hard to reload for, and you can find the lighter range of .277 diameter/ .270 Winchester bullets lots of places. I have a ton of NOS bullets waiting to be loaded, from when they were only used by .270 WIN hand loaders.
Just my opinion, but I really don't see a point to the 6.8 vs. Grendel debate. One is a deer/GP cartridge that does well in that role, while the other is largely a target cartridge that does well in its own role. Why compare apples to oranges?
Here's something I pulled off Hodgdon's website. 90gr Sierra Match King loaded to 2.38" OAL. 24" barrel.
Not 2,600 fps but close. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190226/cde4d051d5d906a390d3fc95fa93a3df.jpg
Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk
I can't speak to specific numbers like Constructor, but I have full faith in the 6.8 as a deer rifle after taking many bucks with it. I like the cartridge and it's capabilities, but I'm not trying to replace/eclipse 5.56, which seems to be the prevalent assumption among many 6.8 skeptics. I've had mine for several years, and hand load for it. It's not hard to reload for, and you can find the lighter range of .277 diameter/ .270 Winchester bullets lots of places. I have a ton of NOS bullets waiting to be loaded, from when they were only used by .270 WIN hand loaders.
Just my opinion, but I really don't see a point to the 6.8 vs. Grendel debate. One is a deer/GP cartridge that does well in that role, while the other is largely a target cartridge that does well in its own role. Why compare apples to oranges?
I respectfully disagree with your opinion that the 6.5 Grendel is largely a target round. Yes, the Grendel's origins can be traced back to target shooting, but it is also an excellent hunting round with .308 class performance. Game of all sizes from prairie dogs to elk can be taken with the Grendel at ranges beyond what the 6.8 SPC can do. In 2007 Mark LaRue took down a bull elk at 400 yards using an AR chambered in 6.5 Grendel. The success of that hunt is what convinced him to start selling rifles chambered in 6.5 Grendel.
constructor
02-26-19, 15:03
I respectfully disagree with your opinion that the 6.5 Grendel is largely a target round. Yes, the Grendel's origins can be traced back to target shooting, but it is also an excellent hunting round with .308 class performance. Game of all sizes from prairie dogs to elk can be taken with the Grendel at ranges beyond what the 6.8 SPC can do. In 2007 Mark LaRue took down a bull elk at 400 yards using an AR chambered in 6.5 Grendel. The success of that hunt is what convinced him to start selling rifles chambered in 6.5 Grendel.
Both cartridges are very close in performance. There was a 5x5 elk taken with a 6.8 at 372 yards(ranged) the same year Larue shot the one at 400. In 2010 a guy shot a 8' Grizzly with a 6.8. The wild claims are usually made by people that have shot one but not the other.
It is beyond ethical range and or bullet selection for big game, before there is any significant difference between them.
It's just not worth arguing about when any reasonable person would pick a larger cartridge if they intended to hunt at longer range.
I respectfully disagree with your opinion that the 6.5 Grendel is largely a target round. Yes, the Grendel's origins can be traced back to target shooting, but it is also an excellent hunting round with .308 class performance. Game of all sizes from prairie dogs to elk can be taken with the Grendel at ranges beyond what the 6.8 SPC can do. In 2007 Mark LaRue took down a bull elk at 400 yards using an AR chambered in 6.5 Grendel. The success of that hunt is what convinced him to start selling rifles chambered in 6.5 Grendel.
Sir,
Fair enough and thank you for your response, but the vast majority of input on the Grendel that I read/have read has come from target shooters, or is in the form of raw statistical data, and not 'in the freezer' results. I don't doubt for a second that guys are out knocking down deer with the Grendel, but feedback sure seems weighted to the 6.8 side. As an aside, I've never understood the assumed rivalry between the end users of each. If you can afford it and they're both so great, why not have both? I'm aware that's a rhetorical question, but I just don't see the problem.
It is beyond ethical range and or bullet selection for big game, before there is any significant difference between them.
It's just not worth arguing about when any reasonable person would pick a larger cartridge if they intended to hunt at longer range.
I would tend to agree with you. We only hear about the successful hunts, not the ones where the animal limped off to die days later.
Placed an order for the 6.8 SPC upper assembly for the following reasons.
1. Where I hunt 200 yard shots are the max.
2. Bigger bullets work better.
Falshooter
03-06-19, 06:09
Oh boy here we go again.
All I'll say is both cartridges have their similarities and are an improvement over the 5.56. I researched both and bought the 6.5 Grendel and I have been completely satisfied. Both require different barrel, bolt and magazine than 5.56/223 AR-15.
Kind of reminds me of 9MM/40/45 pistol caliber debate.
Moonlight Again
03-06-19, 08:11
There is an awful lot of partisanship in the 6.5/6.8 conflict, which obscures the fact that they are broadly similar cartridges. Back when I was a younker, we ran into the same kind of issue regarding the .270 Winchester and the .30-06, spending hours debating the merits (and weaknesses!) of the two cartridges.
I'm still "stuck" with the 5.56mm and the 300 BLK, but there's probably a 6.5 Grendel upper in my future. I settled on the Grendel for two inarguable reasons: first, the availability of the Wolf steel case ammo at considerably better pricing than anything available for the 6.8 SPC, and second, I've just been a fan of the 6.5mm bore size since reading "The Short Happy Life of Francis Macomber" and the exploits of Karamojo Bell.
If I had a hard time sourcing the Grendel components or ammunition, I'd be (almost) just as happy to go with a 6.8 SPC.
As constructor said above, "Both cartridges are very close in performance." Pick the one you like and go shoot the snot out of it.
Sulzer Firearms is also making a 6.8 receiver set for less than LWRC. I know nothing about that company’s track record, though.
MDWS is creating steel mags that will interface with Six8-sized receiver sets -- these mags will allow a COAL of 2.39" so expect 130gr bullets in the 6.5 Grendel to become much more useful (along with added MV for 100-123gr bullets, of course). I've loaded Grendel rounds using the Berger 130gr Hybrid Tac bullets seated to 2.37" with no issues in a Faxon 12" SAAMI barrel and a Brownells Grendel II barrel. These steel mags will also allow for proper cartridge stacking for reliable feeding, especially with the slightly bigger (than 6.8) Grendel cases.
MDWS apparently has a "major manufacturer" on tap to make Six8-sized billet receiver sets for substantially less than LWRCi is charging. These receiver sets take all standard AR15 parts other than a slightly modified bolt catch.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.