View Full Version : Larue's LAT/SAT rails
Looks like LT dropped their SAT/LAT rails using the same lockup design as their venerable quad rails. Seems like they're going after the ALG market based on pricing, which is smart. They do look pretty solid and it'll be interesting to see how they pan out. I think they should be a solid choice for a "budget" build.
https://www.larue.com/products/larue-lokatinny-handguards/
https://www.larue.com/products/larue-slickatinny-handguards/
These actually look excellent.
Seems like they're going after the ALG market based on pricing, which is smart.
An industry VP and myself were talking about pricing years ago, and the subject of LT came up. He laughed and said Larue would lose money on products to spite another company if he didn’t like them. In this case, I doubt he is losing money as I’m sure he is sitting on a massive pile of extrusion that just sits there. Your ALG comment is probably right on the mark.
While looks are subjective, these are lopsided looking to my eye, though I figure that is just part of the extrusion on hand.
Renegade04
02-18-19, 14:22
I got the e-mail today on these. I just ordered the 13.2" LAT along with a 16" PredatAR barrel for a new build. You cannot beat the quality and price on these handguards.
An industry VP and myself were talking about pricing years ago, and the subject of LT came up. He laughed and said Larue would lose money on products to spite another company if he didn’t like them. In this case, I doubt he is losing money as I’m sure he is sitting on a massive pile of extrusion that just sits there. Your ALG comment is probably right on the mark.
While looks are subjective, these are lopsided looking to my eye, though I figure that is just part of the extrusion on hand.
This is what he's doing with his MBT triggers.
This is what he's doing with his MBT triggers.
Do you have proof to back up your claim that ML is losing money?
Ordered two of the SAT rails. These look solid and you can’t beat the price.
Hammer_Man
02-18-19, 15:01
I really like the SAT rail, I think it may find a home on my next build.
While these handguards would not be my choice, IMHO, just like his trigger, I don’t think you can beat the value of them for the money. Business competition can be and is ruthless at times, trying to keep your slice of the pie, it’s just the way it is.
RAM Engineer
02-18-19, 15:57
1. It’s about time.
2. They probably look lopsided since the Larue rails historically mimicked the KAC RAS pattern of having 12 o’clock rail even with upper, and 3,6, & 9 rails tucked in closer to the bore.
3. Finally an MLOK rail that I can talk Ken Elmore into using. ��
This is what he's doing with his MBT triggers.
So he extended his MBT sale until July 4th to what.. continue to lose money? :rolleyes:
Ahh, nothing like a LaRue thread to get the teen-aged girls in the restroom innuendo going!
Ordered two for a couple of guns that currently have Magpul handguards on them. Bought two more MBTs at the same time since he dropped the price.....again....
Hammer_Man
02-18-19, 17:50
Ordered two for a couple of guns that currently have Magpul handguards on them. Bought two more MBTs at the same time since he dropped the price.....again....
I know, I'm going to order a couple MBTs on payday if his prices hold out.
Do you have proof to back up your claim that ML is losing money?
So he extended his MBT sale until July 4th to what.. continue to lose money? :rolleyes:
I read a post directly from ML on TOS saying that he was losing money on them but he would do whatever it took to get them in the hands of the masses to prove they were better than his competition (presumably aimed at Geissele). I may not have every detail of that exactly correct; it was some months back when I read it, but I'm pretty sure I remember the part about losing money.
1. It’s about time.
2. They probably look lopsided since the Larue rails historically mimicked the KAC RAS pattern of having 12 o’clock rail even with upper, and 3,6, & 9 rails tucked in closer to the bore.
3. Finally an MLOK rail that I can talk Ken Elmore into using. ��
Yeah. Ken only uses factory Colt barrel nuts or Larue.
Ordered two for a couple of guns that currently have Magpul handguards on them. Bought two more MBTs at the same time since he dropped the price.....again....
I know, I'm going to order a couple MBTs on payday if his prices hold out.
I read a post directly from ML on TOS saying that he was losing money on them but he would do whatever it took to get them in the hands of the masses to prove they were better than his competition (presumably aimed at Geissele). I may not have every detail of that exactly correct; it was some months back when I read it, but I'm pretty sure I remember the part about losing money.
I wonder at what point one can recondition the market for run-n-gun triggers. I hazily recall Federal Gold Match 308 taking a large and permanent price reduction in response to Black Hills Red Box of the same loading costing less and flooding the market.
Ahh, nothing like a LaRue thread to get the teen-aged girls in the restroom innuendo going!
Have you seen the geissele cult huggers?
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Yeah. Ken only uses factory Colt barrel nuts or Larue.
That's interesting, is there a reason why he only sticks with those two options?
That's interesting, is there a reason why he only sticks with those two options?
He told me that he found that they are the most robust. He built two 6933s for me and I had to choose between the two. I chose the factory Colt barrel nut as I was mounting Centurion C4 Cutout rails on both rifles.
Have you seen the geissele cult huggers?
Geissele is favored on this site, no reason they shouldn't be.
I was talking about the usual LaRue hate.
My LaRue 6.5 Grendel is the only rifle I own that has all parts from the same source, and I love it.
I don't particularly need another rail, but for the price I may just buy one to have.
He told me that he found that they are the most robust.
Were you in a class for a department when you were told that, or was this you as a customer? Not calling you a liar by any stretch, but I've heard different from him and from another person, but I was not in the capacity of a customer. I'll also point out that I'm not calling Ken a liar either. There are plenty of reasons that can be given to different persons.
I don't particularly need another rail, but for the price I may just buy one to have.
I have piles of rails on hand (other companies) If you like what they look like, and the company, you might as well. The price is certainly low.
Were you in a class for a department when you were told that, or was this you as a customer? Not calling you a liar by any stretch, but I've heard different from him and from another person, but I was not in the capacity of a customer. I'll also point out that I'm not calling Ken a liar either. There are plenty of reasons that can be given to different persons.
Sure as hell sounds like you are calling me a liar in a passive aggressive way. I guess my email from Ken stating that he only does factory Colt barrel nuts or Larue rails isn't good enough for you.
I have no idea what Ken told you or anyone else, just what he told me. Whether he still holds to that policy, I have no idea. Hell, if he gets a big order from some department, he might put on whatever they want, but for me, he gave me the two choices.
I have piles of rails on hand (other companies) If you like what they look like, and the company, you might as well. The price is certainly low.
I dont have piles but I have a few, and this certainly doesn't sting as much as some of the Knights rail's ive "had to have."
Sure as hell sounds like you are calling me a liar in a passive aggressive way. I guess my email from Ken stating that he only does factory Colt barrel nuts or Larue rails isn't good enough for you.
I have no idea what Ken told you or anyone else, just what he told me. Whether he still holds to that policy, I have no idea. Hell, if he gets a big order from some department, he might put on whatever they want, but for me, he gave me the two choices.
Chill out! He said he wasn’t calling you a liar, that he had heard something different from the guy. Apparently he talks out of both sides of his mouth.
My iPhone XS Max is better than your android!
Chill out! He said he wasn’t calling you a liar, that he had heard something different from the guy. Apparently he talks out of both sides of his mouth.
My iPhone XS Max is better than your android!
He didn't need to use the word liar. Though not surprised he did.
Got the email myself today and think they should be a good option at that price point. We know that mounting system is solid as they have used it for years and larue has a good history of making a quality product(despite what you may or may not think about Mr. Larue himself). Having a deal where they will discount the trigger a few more bucks is a smart move as well.
One thing I will say is that I wish they use mlok slots all the way back on the lat on the angles sides. Now I get it that function wise this isn't a big deal but for looks I think it'd be better.
I don't really have the need personally for another ar-15 but could see myself looking at one of these rails if I did. I wonder what they weigh?
Anyone has instructions in pdf or youtube link on how to install those rails/barrel nut? I'm familiar with the standard GI and aftermarket Geissele/BCM/Centurion barrel nuts/install, but not with Larue. Are they easy to install/remove or require some stupid red loctite on the outside of the barrel nut (aka Midwest industries) or KAC URX difficulty?
Renegade04
02-19-19, 06:20
Anyone has instructions in pdf or youtube link on how to install those rails/barrel nut? I'm familiar with the standard GI and aftermarket Geissele/BCM/Centurion barrel nuts/install, but not with Larue. Are they easy to install/remove or require some stupid red loctite on the outside of the barrel nut (aka Midwest industries) or KAC URX difficulty?
I found this last night. You will have to scroll down to the post dated 3/1/2005 11:02:32 AM CST.
https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/-/4-226782/?
Holy crap, I just went and looked at the price on these. $10/inch? No one else touches that for a quality product.
What’s the deal with his attachment method? Just looks different from anything I’ve used.
Also, though the flat face of the MBT-2S trigger really should have the edges rounded out, an $80 price tag is outstanding.
I happen to love capitalism and what it does for the consumer, even when that means Amazon (or Larue) loses money for a while to gain market share. It’s business, and we win.
But not having the hand guard reach all the way to the receiver looks super funky.
As stated by others, it looks like he is trying to gain a significant market share, and this is simply an extension of what he started with the MBT price reduction. In a soft AR market he wants to set himself up as a "top of mind" retailer with a majority of buyers. It kind of reminds me of that "buy one car get one free" sale that Kia ran some years back. Prior to that you didn't see many of them anywhere, now you see Kias all over the place.
But not having the hand guard reach all the way to the receiver looks super funky.
Looks weird in 2019 for sure, but you couldn’t swing a dead cat without hitting a Larue rail somewhere in 2009. Everything is cyclical I guess. There’s a good chance I’ll pick one up.
Didn't sound like Stick was calling you a liar, or being passive aggressive :)
Mark went out to prove he can make a better trigger (wire EDM vs cast) for less, and G customers have been over paying all these years. As to him losing money, I don't know, but I suspect he isn't, he may be making a lot less at $87 but I doubt a business would bleed money just to spite a competitor for as long as Mark has been selling MBT for $87.
Mark is a grown up and doesn't need me or anyone else telling him how to run his successful business. We do share something in common for good reasons if you've been paying attention.
RAM Engineer
02-19-19, 11:15
Were you in a class for a department when you were told that, or was this you as a customer? Not calling you a liar by any stretch, but I've heard different from him and from another person, but I was not in the capacity of a customer. I'll also point out that I'm not calling Ken a liar either. There are plenty of reasons that can be given to different persons.
Ken told me the same, as a customer, in an email, with the exception that he DOES also use the DD RIS II rails (non FSB models). HOWEVER, he never told me that only the Larue, DD or Colt barrel nuts were robust enough, just that those were all he uses, and that he DOES NOT use Geissele due to the rail moving on the barrel nut. No further elaboration by him.
I found this last night. You will have to scroll down to the post dated 3/1/2005 11:02:32 AM CST.
https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/-/4-226782/?
Thank you @Renegade04
I found this last night. You will have to scroll down to the post dated 3/1/2005 11:02:32 AM CST.
https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/-/4-226782/?
That was pretty well-written, I read through it all even though I've put together a few. Thanks for the link.
ETA: Look at the way he attached the A2 FSB on a new barrel - anyone ever seen the set screws from the side technique? Was that the way in 2005?
As stated by others, it looks like he is trying to gain a significant market share, and this is simply an extension of what he started with the MBT price reduction. In a soft AR market he wants to set himself up as a "top of mind" retailer with a majority of buyers. It kind of reminds me of that "buy one car get one free" sale that Kia ran some years back. Prior to that you didn't see many of them anywhere, now you see Kias all over the place.
Mark went out to prove he can make a better trigger (wire EDM vs cast) for less, and G customers have been over paying all these years. As to him losing money, I don't know, but I suspect he isn't, he may be making a lot less at $87 but I doubt a business would bleed money just to spite a competitor for as long as Mark has been selling MBT for $87.
I think you both have nailed it.
Headache, I don't know about KIA quality way back when, but my wife's Sorento, bought new in 2017, is a good quality ride. We looked at it in the first place because of CR's rating of it and crash test results. Very happy, I'm sure when her turn for a new vehicle rolls up in 5 years, she'll probably want another.
There is something about some folks that I really don't understand - they can't fathom that different business models can offer comparable products at differing prices. This is especially true of a standardized item such as the M4.
Going back to the example of cars - I've been shopping for another truck. Everyone needs two, right? I've been Dodge-centric since 1973 when I bought my first Power Wagon. As I was driving past the Toyota dealer I noticed a Tundra on their lot that was nearly the color blue of my first Power Wagon. I pulled in to look at it and quickly saw that it stickered at $9,000 less than a comparable Ram which I had just looked at, plus the CrewMax cab has almost double the backseat legroom.
How does that happen? A lot of variables, all of them NOT quality based.
Why did they not machine MLOK at the 10:30 and 1:30 positions for the entire length?
Why did they not machine MLOK at the 10:30 and 1:30 positions for the entire length?
Oh, I don't know....$10 an inch maybe? Machine time/tooling is MONEY.....Then it's $15 an inch- like everyone else.....
Why did they not machine MLOK at the 10:30 and 1:30 positions for the entire length?
Other than them thinking it would make the handguard less strong and rigid, what other reason could there be. Why did Hodge Defense do something similar with their Wedgelock handguard ?
IMHO, other than them looking retro and dated and lacking the sex appeal that many think a continous top rail has, I don't think you can beat them for the price. Also, I ran a CNC mill for many years machining all kinds of aluminum parts, and the time to machine in all the M-LOK slots the full length on their *longest* handguard would probably add less than 10 minutes of machining time. Also, if you use the right tooling and feeds and speeds on 6061 aluminum. your tooling will last a long time before it needs changed.
Why did they not machine MLOK at the 10:30 and 1:30 positions for the entire length?
Just off the cuff I would say for two reasons. First, is that many people don't mount things on those portions of the rail. This then allows for the second reason which is that M-Lok slots have to be machined to a specific dimension, while a "miscellaneous cut" does not. That would translate into less QA and lower cost.
Holy crap, I just went and looked at the price on these. $10/inch? No one else touches that for a quality product.
What’s the deal with his attachment method? Just looks different from anything I’ve used.
Also, though the flat face of the MBT-2S trigger really should have the edges rounded out, an $80 price tag is outstanding.
I happen to love capitalism and what it does for the consumer, even when that means Amazon (or Larue) loses money for a while to gain market share. It’s business, and we win.
But not having the hand guard reach all the way to the receiver looks super funky.
That is the same attachment method larue has been using since the early 2000's. Its old but works and is proven.
Anyone has instructions in pdf or youtube link on how to install those rails/barrel nut? I'm familiar with the standard GI and aftermarket Geissele/BCM/Centurion barrel nuts/install, but not with Larue. Are they easy to install/remove or require some stupid red loctite on the outside of the barrel nut (aka Midwest industries) or KAC URX difficulty?
This is older so it's only 240p, but fast forward to 2:40 for a discussion on the LaRue quad rail and the retention ring.
https://youtu.be/rK4XzPll9U8
Whitenightvision
02-19-19, 15:13
Love it except the attachment method. I mean it’s solid but not aesthetically pleasing.
Anyone have weights on these?
Love it except the attachment method. I mean it’s solid but not aesthetically pleasing.
I just don't want to time a barrel nut if I can at all avoid it.
I’m no Larue fan but you have to give Mark credit. He’s changing with the market to keep the machines running. Larue UU kits; roughly $1100 for a small frame including lower, roughly $1500 for a large frame with the lower, MBT $87, now these rails.
He has the means to bury the competition whom he regards as having wronged him, and he's been executing these steps. I would not want to be on his bad side :D
I’m no Larue fan but you have to give Mark credit. He’s changing with the market to keep the machines running. Larue UU kits; roughly $1100 for a small frame including lower, roughly $1500 for a large frame with the lower, MBT $87, now these rails.
To be honest, the UU kits tempt me to try a Grendel build...
He has the means to bury the competition whom he regards as having wronged him, and he's been executing these steps. I would not want to be on his bad side :D
I know he has ruffled some feathers, obviously at some time or another he's pissed in Stickman's and officerx's Post Toasties, but is that the only reason you think he is using the business model he is using?
Has he enlarged his work force, or, is he taking steps to position LaRue in the market so he can keep his employees employed? Some guys, even abrasive guys, think that way.
ETA: Don't know the guy from Adam, but he's onto something, I'm a solid customer. Wouldn't be except the MBT and Ultimate Upper got me started.
LaRuemasterrace
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He has the means to bury the competition whom he regards as having wronged him, and he's been executing these steps. I would not want to be on his bad side :D
I have a feeling competition is what's driving him to compete like this and he has the machine shop to put up a good fight. You now have a lot of options for quality optic mounts and rails that have to be eating into his sales some. Looks like he is preping for a good fight. You have the optic mounts that he dropped the price on, the triggers which he has really dropped in price, the ultimate upper kits which have been discounted and now these rails.
Now if they would only drop their complete rifles down some price wise.
Some of you guys have been around a while, some have more inside information than others. But, remember one thing-you only get one side of the whole ML hate on THIS SITE. Expand your horizons and don't piggy back on the hate. While I don't know all of the origins, there are no angels on either side, regardless of what they spew, especially here-that includes anyone associated with THIS SITE.
And yes I've had breakfast and a coffee:cool:
It could be a shift in strategy and direction, based on more than a single event. Mark and I aren't personal friends, we're on friendly terms, based on our past working relationship and our common stance on a few things. I don't know his business model, nor would I speak on his behalf. I have respect for his decades of experience and innovation, I don't have cause to dislike him on a personal or professional level, just the opposite.
He is not the enemy. From a casual industry observer's standpoint, LT may seem to have quieted down in the last 4 or 5 years, but that time is now the past, Mark's new efforts and push into markets and segments he previously didn't operate in seems to be very good indications of a shift, not something I would, or am capable of doing overnight.
Either way, the party that benefits from this is the end users. We have more options, higher quality and less cost in triggers and hand guards. If anyone was happy paying $240 for a cast triggers, let this be a pleasant awakening that a wire EDM trigger can be had for less, from a reputable US based company with a long list of accomplishments and real innovation. His new LAT hand guards can be seen in the same light, they now compete with our RHF hand guards lol, so I'm not oblivious to its impact on our business, but customers can choose for themselves, and there is enough business for everyone to compete and thrive.
I'd discard any notions of quality and purported innovation based on a name, each product should speak for itself without the aid of its brand. The same goes for us, folks have said whatever we make, they'd buy it. To us, it's a compliment, a responsibility and pressure to live up to the ever higher bar, it is not a sign to abuse the customers' trust. I believe Mark understands this very well and lives by the same principles.
I know he has ruffled some feathers, obviously at some time or another he's pissed in Stickman's and officerx's Post Toasties, but is that the only reason you think he is using the business model he is using?
Has he enlarged his work force, or, is he taking steps to position LaRue in the market so he can keep his employees employed? Some guys, even abrasive guys, think that way.
ETA: Don't know the guy from Adam, but he's onto something, I'm a solid customer. Wouldn't be except the MBT and Ultimate Upper got me started.
You must’ve misunderstood- I’ve got no beef with him or his company. I own several MBTs and mounts and couldn’t be happier with them. I stick with the KMR when it comes to buying rails though.
My iPhone XS Max is better than your android!
Five_Point_Five_Six
02-20-19, 08:39
People on the internet are weird. They get wrapped up in a decade+ old slap fight between two past middle aged rich guys who own manufacturing companies and choose sides like it's the Civil War and dig in. Buy your LaRue or your Geissele, or buy both and live your life.
Rayrevolver
02-20-19, 08:49
Before last month, the only thing I ever bought from Larue were those index clips for like $15. Jumped on the MBT last month and really happy so far. For all intents, it feels really close to the SD-C based on 1 range session and some dry fire. I think the wide trigger face, helps it feel like the straight SD-C trigger. The MBT is going to be my new standard since I can buy 3 of them for the cost of an SD-C.
I bought an Noveske NSR rail recently and forgot how silly it was to time a damn barrel nut. I would like more info on the Larue rails. Weight of the 10" but also the actual length. Could you fit a direct thread suppressor on the 10" rail with a 10.5" barrel?
Before last month, the only thing I ever bought from Larue were those index clips for like $15. Jumped on the MBT last month and really happy so far. For all intents, it feels really close to the SD-C based on 1 range session and some dry fire. I think the wide trigger face, helps it feel like the straight SD-C trigger. The MBT is going to be my new standard since I can buy 3 of them for the cost of an SD-C.
I bought an Noveske NSR rail recently and forgot how silly it was to time a damn barrel nut. I would like more info on the Larue rails. Weight of the 10" but also the actual length. Could you fit a direct thread suppressor on the 10" rail with a 10.5" barrel?
Maybe, but it would be really close and it depends on how much of a step your can has from it’s main body . Barrel muzzle threads are .625” long from the end to shoulder.
It seems like to many M.L. has gotten a reputation of being the D.T. of the gun industry but his current low price and free swag policy is more like that of Bernie Sanders.. “Make The Gun Insustry Great Again”
IMHO, competition is a good thing and usually gives the consumer better and improved products at lower prices. Now back on topic.
You must’ve misunderstood- I’ve got no beef with him or his company. I own several MBTs and mounts and couldn’t be happier with them. I stick with the KMR when it comes to buying rails though.
My iPhone XS Max is better than your android!
I probably did, but when you lay out the posts:
QUOTE=Stickman;2709117]An industry VP and myself were talking about pricing years ago, and the subject of LT came up. He laughed and said Larue would lose money on products to spite another company if he didn’t like them.....[/QUOTE]
and you responded...
This is what he's doing with his MBT triggers.
and then this...
I read a post directly from ML on TOS saying that he was losing money on them but he would do whatever it took to get them in the hands of the masses to prove they were better than his competition (presumably aimed at Geissele). I may not have every detail of that exactly correct; it was some months back when I read it, but I'm pretty sure I remember the part about losing money.
I just got to that conclusion, especially when you jumped to ol' innuendo boy's defense.
Sorry.
noonesshowmonkey
02-20-19, 14:28
When dealing with rails you have a few questions to ask: mounting / lock up system, total length, attachment type (mlok, keymod, pic-rail, CMR, etc.), weight, and cost.
The only variable in that list that isn't addressed directly is weight, which I find odd not being published on the website. These may become best-in-class for the price. I doubt most folks could question the LT lock up system with a straight face. Frankly it is about damn time that LT started marketing rails that suit the desires of customers. The market moved on since 2008.
And let's be real, needing 1:30 attachment points along the entire handguard length isn't really a defining issue for most people. Arisaka makes mounts to tuck lights into that spot anyway, so who really cares? Also, how many of us are attaching anything on the rail anywhere but the last few inches? VFG, PEQ, rail scales, BUIS, WML... all that stuff is on the end of the handguard...
I might have been tempted, if there were a Keymod version. I don't MLOK.
I probably did, but when you lay out the posts:
QUOTE=Stickman;2709117]An industry VP and myself were talking about pricing years ago, and the subject of LT came up. He laughed and said Larue would lose money on products to spite another company if he didn’t like them.....
and you responded...
and then this...
I just got to that conclusion, especially when you jumped to ol' innuendo boy's defense.
Sorry.[/QUOTE]
No, you got hurt feelings that what I said was shown to be correct.
No, you got hurt feelings that what I said was shown to be correct.
You have the company spreadsheets?
I don't have hurt feelings, I just have this innate sense of fairness which has served me well up to this point. I just get tired of all the innuendo that goes unchallenged as the gospel.
It's obvious you have a hard-on for LaRue and I believe it colors your opinion and what you say.
In my very special opinion, it's wrong to hold yourself out as an SME/Industry Professional and make statements that you aren't willing to back up with facts - names, places, companies, etc.
If I was hiring you to do work for me in a firearms related capacity, I wouldn't want you skylining yourself in such a manner because it might reflect on my company by association.
ETA: Perhaps I should add that it is obvious, by your sig lines, that you have connections within the industry. You have used those connections to put together at least one group buy that I benefited from, do not think that 1) I don't remember that; or 2) it was not deeply appreciated. We are just disagreeing about your characterization of the LaRue products.
I have a simple question about LaRue handguards and their mounting system.
Will the system be robust and resistant to zero shift of the front sight mounted on a LaRue rail? Not addressing the strength of the sight, just the rail.
Max length of rail will be 12" or shorter.
I like strong and tough, but a full quad rail is off the list....new Locatinny is the rail I am asking about.
Thank You for informed opinions and experience.
Renegade04
02-25-19, 07:19
I have a simple question about LaRue handguards and their mounting system.
Will the system be robust and resistant to zero shift of the front sight mounted on a LaRue rail? Not addressing the strength of the sight, just the rail.
Max length of rail will be 12" or shorter.
I like strong and tough, but a full quad rail is off the list....new Lokatinny is the rail I am asking about.
Thank You for informed opinions and experience.
The LaRue Tactical free-float mounting system is robust and rock solid. You will have no issue with shift whatsoever.
Thank you for a clear unambiguous reply. Seems to me that LaRue products are designed with those qualities in mind.
I assume they will not be the lightest options, and that works for me.
The LaRue Tactical free-float mounting system is robust and rock solid. You will have no issue with shift whatsoever.
That’s a bold statement and I don’t agree with it. I’m even a fan of Larue products.
An M16/M4 barrel seems solid as well, but POI shifts are pretty big when applying force to the sling swivel. An M4 experiences approximately 1” of POI shift at 200 yards for each pound of force applied to the end of the non-free float rail. An M16 approaches 2” of shift at 200 yards for each pound of force at the end of its non-free float rail. Look at the USMC shooting team’s Facebook pictures for a documented study on this. Free float rails prevent those forces from affecting the barrel, but they’re contingent on not using the rail for your sights.
I have a Larue 12” quad rail handguard on my CMP service rifle AR. They are great and hold up to the forces when I sling up tight. That said, there is obviously some flex in the system when I do it and I am almost certain there would be point of impact shift if I had a front sight mounted onto the rail.
Free floats are great as a way to isolate the barrel from external forces. But that only matters if you’re not subjecting your sights/optics to those same forces.
All this said, if you put a sight on your rail system instead of the barrel or receiver, then you need to accept the possibility of point of impact shifts.
Renegade04
02-25-19, 18:56
That’s a bold statement and I don’t agree with it. I’m even a fan of Larue products.
An M16/M4 barrel seems solid as well, but POI shifts are pretty big when applying force to the sling swivel. An M4 experiences approximately 1” of POI shift at 200 yards for each pound of force applied to the end of the non-free float rail. An M16 approaches 2” of shift at 200 yards for each pound of force at the end of its non-free float rail. Look at the USMC shooting team’s Facebook pictures for a documented study on this. Free float rails prevent those forces from affecting the barrel, but they’re contingent on not using the rail for your sights.
I have a Larue 12” quad rail handguard on my CMP service rifle AR. They are great and hold up to the forces when I sling up tight. That said, there is obviously some flex in the system when I do it and I am almost certain there would be point of impact shift if I had a front sight mounted onto the rail.
Free floats are great as a way to isolate the barrel from external forces. But that only matters if you’re not subjecting your sights/optics to those same forces.
All this said, if you put a sight on your rail system instead of the barrel or receiver, then you need to accept the possibility of point of impact shifts.
You are welcome to disagree as it is your right to have a different opinion. Not everyone has the same opinion. What I want to know is if you ever experienced a POI shift using a rail mounted front sight on a LaRue handguard? You also have to remember that not everyone is going to run a sling and it would largely depend on where the sling mount was located. More towards the front may have an impact on some handguards that do not have a mounting system as robust as the LaRue handguard mounting system. A sling mount towards the rear of any handguard may have a lot less impact on a POI shift if any. Nonetheless, in my experience with LaRue handguards, the probability of a POI shift with a rail-mounted front sight on the LaRue handguard would be minimal to none. I never had an issue.
I assume there will be *some* shift, especially if you zero in a different fashion than you run your rifle. If you are consistent enough, you might not notice a difference. I have noticed differences in POI in different ways of holding the same rifle, based on my body's influence on the rifle. I find the effect magnified with optics.
I would expect the LaRue handguard to flex to roughly the same degree as other KeyMod/MLOK rails made of the same material, with roughly the same diameters.
I don't recall reading threads started by users complaining that their Centurion/BCM/Sionics/etc handguards are causing POI shifts from standard sling/bipod/barricade usage.
Once someone actually receives and installs one of these handguards, I expect they will comment on the stiffness in relation of other known handguards.
You are welcome to disagree as it is your right to have a different opinion. Not everyone has the same opinion. What I want to know is if you ever experienced a POI shift using a rail mounted front sight on a LaRue handguard? You also have to remember that not everyone is going to run a sling and it would largely depend on where the sling mount was located. More towards the front may have an impact of some handguards that do not have a mounting system as robust as the LaRue handguard mounting system. A sling mount towards the rear of any handguard may have a lot less impact on a POI shift if any. Nonetheless, in my experience with LaRue handguards, the probability of a POI shift with a rail-mounted front sight on the LaRue handguard would be minimal to none. I never had an issue.
I’m going to emphasize for anybody reading that I really like my 12” Larue quad rail, and look forward to the 10” LAT rail I have coming. I’m not trying to downplay their quality.
But no, I’ve never had a front sight on my Larue rails or done a scientific experiment on POI shifting with Larue rails. However, it’s not just slinging up that causes POI shifts in non-free float hand guards. Even just leaning the 12” handguard on a surface while shooting can result in an approximate 5 moa shift. The below image is based on 200yard shots. I think it’s pretty reasonable to doubt that the Larue rails can handle those same forces with no shift. My personal view is that as long as the sight on the rails is a backup, then it’s not that big of a deal, but one should think about it. Also, the same would go for any other rail, not just Larue. Ultimately, the only logical course of action is to do a scientific experiment like the USMC shooting team did with the non-free float rails.
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I’m going to emphasize for anybody reading that I really like my 12” Larue quad rail, and look forward to the 10” LAT rail I have coming. I’m not trying to downplay their quality.
But no, I’ve never had a front sight on my Larue rails or done a scientific experiment on POI shifting with Larue rails. However, it’s not just slinging up that causes POI shifts in non-free float hand guards. Even just leaning the 12” handguard on a surface while shooting can result in an approximate 5 moa shift. The below image is based on 200yard shots. I think it’s pretty reasonable to doubt that the Larue rails can handle those same forces with no shift. My personal view is that as long as the sight on the rails is a backup, then it’s not that big of a deal, but one should think about it. Also, the same would go for any other rail, not just Larue. Ultimately, the only logical course of action is to do a scientific experiment like the USMC shooting team did with the non-free float rails.
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So you dont know.
So you dont know.
I have a Colt 6920 upper with a DD 9.5 Lite rail. I also have an upper with iron sights on a Geissele Mk14 rail. I'll stimulate the MC test at 100 yards if anyone cares about that sort of thing. I've already seen that a non free floated A4 upper does the same for me at it does in the MC test.
To clarify I am going to use an optic, so my need is back-up irons that will not be used for distance shooting.
If the barrel nut system is indeed robust, which I believe is true, my real concern is the ability of the rail to return to a neutral position if it is not being deflected by some type of load.
Another way to say this is will the rail resist taking a set from a transient load, assuming the load is likely and not a D9 having fun.
To clarify I am going to use an optic, so my need is back-up irons that will not be used for distance shooting.
If the barrel nut system is indeed robust, which I believe is true, my real concern is the ability of the rail to return to a neutral position if it is not being deflected by some type of load.
Another way to say this is will the rail resist taking a set from a transient load, assuming the load is likely and not a D9 having fun.
In that regard, I think you’ll probably be good. I’ve witnessed visible flexing when really slinging up tight on my 12” Larue quad rail, and it goes back to where it was, with my MkI eyeball as a measurement. Granted, the LAT may act differently, but they both have the same mounting system.
So you dont know.
And neither does Renegade, not for certain anyway. That was my point. He made a very definitive statement, and without an actual experiment, it’s all observational and not quantified.
I have a Colt 6920 upper with a DD 9.5 Lite rail. I also have an upper with iron sights on a Geissele Mk14 rail. I'll stimulate the MC test at 100 yards if anyone cares about that sort of thing. I've already seen that a non free floated A4 upper does the same for me at it does in the MC test.
If you’re willing to spend the time and ammo for the test, I’d be very interested in the results. Thanks!
It looks like with the Slick*A*Tinny Hanguard shooting gloves would be mandatory.
I think you'll always have some POI shift with a non-monolithic platform, right? I buy both Geissele and Larue products, so it's not like I'm a kool-aid drinking fanboy, but I've always read that the LT lockup system was some of the most solid ones on the market and the rails extremely stout. I found it interesting when Pat Rogers opted for it instead of a MLOK/Keymod rail on the EAG carbine.
I think you'll always have some POI shift with a non-monolithic platform, right? I buy both Geissele and Larue products, so it's not like I'm a kool-aid drinking fanboy, but I've always read that the LT lockup system was some of the most solid ones on the market and the rails extremely stout. I found it interesting when Pat Rogers opted for it instead of a MLOK/Keymod rail on the EAG carbine.
Larue, Geissele, Daniel Defense, LMT, MI, CA, or anyone else is going to have some degree of flex, it is simply a matter of how long the rail is (leverage), and how force is applied against it. Of equal concern to some people is the quality of the receiver when we start talking about flex. Thin light weight, cut down, or thin billet receivers obviously don't help in this regard.
Nothing against PR, or any of the companies who were involved, but Pat was turned down by at least one manufacturer when he was asking around to have equipment supplied to him, that was before he ended up with a company that said yes. When he was alive, MLOK and Keymod were in their infancy IIRC. That doesn't mean PR would have ignored the newer styles, obviously that is something we will never know unless someone who was close enough to him had that information and wished to post.
I think you'll always have some POI shift with a non-monolithic platform, right? I buy both Geissele and Larue products, so it's not like I'm a kool-aid drinking fanboy, but I've always read that the LT lockup system was some of the most solid ones on the market and the rails extremely stout. I found it interesting when Pat Rogers opted for it instead of a MLOK/Keymod rail on the EAG carbine.
Before his death, he was running at least one BCM 11.5” with a 10” keymod handguard. It was a frequently used gun in class and I believe he rented it to students.
Before his death, he was running at least one BCM 11.5” with a 10” keymod handguard. It was a frequently used gun in class and I believe he rented it to students.
IIRC, he received multiple T&E weapons that both himself and students used. I know BCM does that with multiple instructors, as do others.
I plan to pick up a 11 inch SAT rail soon for a 6.5 Grendel pistol build with a 12.5 inch barrel. I don't like MLok or Keymod & prefer a full top rail. The SAT looks about perfect for me & is one of the only rails with the 11 inch length I want for this build.
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