View Full Version : SCOTUS rules unanimously on asset seizure/excessive fines
"Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, on just her second day back on the bench after undergoing cancer surgery in December, announced the decision for the court, saying that the 8th Amendment’s Excessive Fines Clause protects against government retribution.
“For good reason, the protection against excessive fines has been a constant shield throughout Anglo-American history: Exorbitant tolls undermine other constitutional liberties,” Ginsburg wrote. “Excessive fines can be used, for example, to retaliate against or chill the speech of political enemies . . . Even absent a political motive, fines may be employed in a measure out of accord with the penal goals of retribution and deterrence.”
"Justice Clarence Thomas wrote in a recent opinion that civil forfeitures have “become widespread and highly profitable.”
“This system — where police can seize property with limited judicial oversight and retain it for their own use — has led to egregious and well-chronicled abuses,” Thomas wrote, referring to reporting by The Washington Post and the New Yorker."
RGB is back.
Asset seizure and excessive fines takes a hit.
Read more here:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/supreme-court-says-constitutional-protection-against-excessive-fines-applies-to-state-actions/2019/02/20/204ce0d4-3522-11e9-af5b-b51b7ff322e9_story.html?utm_term=.9e170dbd8816
Doc Safari
02-20-19, 10:35
Unfortunately your link has a "disable ad blocker wall."
If I understand the decision correctly, though, this is definitely a win for freedom.
Unfortunately your link has a "disable ad blocker wall."
Use the incog feature of your browser if it has one. I would agree with the win for freedom.
One step forward, two steps back...
What’s the downside here? This puts gun/ammo taxes (and other “sin taxes”) and red flag laws on questionable ground.
What’s the downside here? This puts gun/ammo taxes (and other “sin taxes”) and red flag laws on questionable ground.
I’m guessing here, but perhaps he is referencing RBG being back on the bench...?
I’m all for this ruling and don’t see a downside to it. That it was unanimous, gives a glimmer of hope for Liberty.
What’s the downside here? This puts gun/ammo taxes (and other “sin taxes”) and red flag laws on questionable ground.
Exactly. I see that you are are thinking big picture...... NICE!
Dr. Bullseye
02-20-19, 11:48
I wonder how The Witch would feel if we seized the property of all illegal aliens before deporting them? These are all ill-gotten assets.
There is no downside to this ruling. Score one for We the People.
Coal Dragger
02-20-19, 12:30
Good ruling.
Time to put many corrupt LEO agencies in their place.
titsonritz
02-20-19, 12:31
Long overdue, no one steals like the government.
Exactly. I see that you are are thinking big picture...... NICE!
Bet NJ Democrats are squirming. Not only did they make felons of magazine possessors but SCOTUS just asked them why they shouldn’t look at more of their current draconian laws.
Should have to return the seized assets, à la bumpstocks.
Coal Dragger
02-20-19, 21:49
Yep, along with cash, vehicles etc.
This could pretty much bankrupt some departments. Which is good, because they were no better than criminals themselves.
I see this as nothing but a win for the people. Yeah, it would be nice if old RGB would retire and call it a day, but this decision does not suck.
Good ruling.
Time to put many corrupt LEO agencies in their place.
Politicians and government employees are a crime gang
I'm always happy to see government theft being curbed.
What’s the downside here? This puts gun/ammo taxes (and other “sin taxes”) and red flag laws on questionable ground.
The issue is no DA/LE agency is going to interpret this ruling as meaning they have to stop seizing stuff.
So it is business as usual.
sundance435
03-04-19, 15:58
The issue is no DA/LE agency is going to interpret this ruling as meaning they have to stop seizing stuff.
So it is business as usual.
I have a feeling that a majority of seizure cases are going to be upheld until there is more precedent from the Circuit Courts. They could've mitigated that somewhat by saying that the seizure of the Land Rover in this case was excessive, but they punted.
The issue is no DA/LE agency is going to interpret this ruling as meaning they have to stop seizing stuff.
So it is business as usual.
Yes, they'll keep stealing stuff from people. But when those people take those PDs to court they have a much better chance of winning.
Eventually PDs will learn its not worth their time to try to steal from people as the court will give it back.
I know we have “LE” on here, and I have a lot of respect for what our police officers do. With that said, I think this is a hugely important decision that is long overdue.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/03/unanimous-supreme-court-decision-policing-profit/584506/
The reason that seizure failed is because the Land Rover wasn't bought with the profit of drug sales. Had it been we would have never heard of this case. For my state this case changes nothing about asset forfeiture for us.
I am more concerned about the poor hapless traveler going from one State to another to make a large purchase like a vehicle on eBay, carrying a considerable amount of cash, then getting stopped for a traffic violation, only to lose that sum of cash from confiscation because of a suspected drug involvement. Too many stories like this that are unsettling.
I am more concerned about the poor hapless traveler going from one State to another to make a large purchase like a vehicle on eBay, carrying a considerable amount of cash, then getting stopped for a traffic violation, only to lose that sum of cash from confiscation because of a suspected drug involvement. Too many stories like this that are unsettling.
As somebody who sometimes travels to other states to purchase machine guns, I concur.
I'm all about hitting drug dealers where it hurts, but the burden of proof remains on LE and courts, not on individuals. And if that means some big time coke dealer who has yet to be arrested is sitting in a Ferrari with 50,000 in cash and you have to let them go, then you SHOULD have to let them go.
Now if you catch the same guy with 10 kilos of coke, then pretty much have at the car, the cash, the house and contents. But even in that instance, asset forfeiture should be part of sentencing. LE agencies that act like pirates on US soil and against US citizens really isn't how things should be done.
As somebody who sometimes travels to other states to purchase machine guns, I concur.
Life must be good - No full auto anything in my collection. I buy and sell horses and sometimes I am traveling with large sums of cash to other States, but have never run into any problems...yet. But maybe a guy with a cowboy hat driving an F250 Super Duty Crewcab towing a horse trailer doesn't scream Drug Dealer?
Life must be good - No full auto anything in my collection. I buy and sell horses and sometimes I am traveling with large sums of cash to other States, but have never run into any problems...yet. But maybe a guy with a cowboy hat driving an F250 Super Duty Crewcab towing a horse trailer doesn't scream Drug Dealer?
Nope, it screams trafficker. ISP seizes 800 Pounds of Marijuana during traffic stop (https://www.ktvb.com/article/news/crime/idaho-state-police-seize-800-pounds-of-marijuana-worth-3-million/277-4ee97b5b-8d5f-41e0-8f1e-8d3dd3be97ce)
One Million in Pot Found in Horse Trailer (http://www.horsenation.com/2013/06/03/in-the-news-1m-in-pot-found-hidden-in-horse-trailer/)
Of course individual pre-contact driving and behavior during the contact play a role in my investigation during an interdiction stop. A true vehicle search for narcotics means I'm removing panels, looking for traps, natural voids, tooling marks, new welds, even issues with the dirt and grime not matching what is there.
I also have no issues with asset forfeiture when done correctly. Unfortunately it is used incorrectly by a lot of smaller agencies as a way to source funding and toys they otherwise wouldn't have.
Nope, it screams trafficker. ISP seizes 800 Pounds of Marijuana during traffic stop (https://www.ktvb.com/article/news/crime/idaho-state-police-seize-800-pounds-of-marijuana-worth-3-million/277-4ee97b5b-8d5f-41e0-8f1e-8d3dd3be97ce)
One Million in Pot Found in Horse Trailer (http://www.horsenation.com/2013/06/03/in-the-news-1m-in-pot-found-hidden-in-horse-trailer/)
Of course individual pre-contact driving and behavior during the contact play a role in my investigation during an interdiction stop. A true vehicle search for narcotics means I'm removing panels, looking for traps, natural voids, tooling marks, new welds, even issues with the dirt and grime not matching what is there.
I also have no issues with asset forfeiture when done correctly. Unfortunately it is used incorrectly by a lot of smaller agencies as a way to source funding and toys they otherwise wouldn't have.
That's good to know. At least either coming or going I am hauling one or two horses. When the search is being done, I would assume you have qualified people to keep my livestock in good order while I am there with my hands on the hood of a cruiser? While doing the search, be prepared to shovel some horse shit too; some of it could by kind of runny and liquid like. If LE wants to clean the trailer for me while conducting their thorough drug hunt, I won't mind - Public Servants doing a public service.
Nope, it screams trafficker. ISP seizes 800 Pounds of Marijuana during traffic stop (https://www.ktvb.com/article/news/crime/idaho-state-police-seize-800-pounds-of-marijuana-worth-3-million/277-4ee97b5b-8d5f-41e0-8f1e-8d3dd3be97ce)
One Million in Pot Found in Horse Trailer (http://www.horsenation.com/2013/06/03/in-the-news-1m-in-pot-found-hidden-in-horse-trailer/)
Of course individual pre-contact driving and behavior during the contact play a role in my investigation during an interdiction stop. A true vehicle search for narcotics means I'm removing panels, looking for traps, natural voids, tooling marks, new welds, even issues with the dirt and grime not matching what is there.
I also have no issues with asset forfeiture when done correctly. Unfortunately it is used incorrectly by a lot of smaller agencies as a way to source funding and toys they otherwise wouldn't have.
Interdiction has not done very much, if anything, to stop the flow of drugs.
Asset forfeiture has corrupted many officers as well as many agencies. It is telling when state agencies facing budget crunches limit the miles their road troops can drive each day, but let the interdiction heroes do anything they want.
The war on drugs is a sham
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The war on drugs is a sham
Could be, but as noted above, a cowboy towing a horse trailer is a prime candidate for a drug mule. I just wonder how dedicated the drug hunting LE official is if they've got to off load a couple of high spirited Broncs out of the trailer (and some like to kick those hind legs), then secure those Broncs while other LE are putting on gloves and wading thru shit to dismantle the inside of the trailer looking for dope? The poor old cowboy like me will be there under guard, grin on my face, while some city boy drug-hunting-champion gets to endure all that nastiness. Going home with a clean horse trailer is a plus.
Life must be good - No full auto anything in my collection. I buy and sell horses and sometimes I am traveling with large sums of cash to other States, but have never run into any problems...yet. But maybe a guy with a cowboy hat driving an F250 Super Duty Crewcab towing a horse trailer doesn't scream Drug Dealer?
So sometimes it's a Mercedes with a dozen MP5s in the trunk. And when making such purchases, cash is king as nobody wants to pay the 2% merchant service fee. Thankfully 99/100 times they were purchased from a LE agency so that's kind of a clue that I might not be on their Most Wanted list.
Sometimes its down in Louisiana (where my better half hails from) on I-10 between Lake Charles and Baton Rouge. Some years back Louisiana State Police and Parish Sheriffs would pull over vehicles for having their fog lights on during the daylight hours. Turns out it was a signal used by drug mules to signal other drug runners about the presence of LE along the highway up ahead. My wife's sister has been stopped numerous times because of it. She's not a mule but a senior exec for Conoco-Phillips.
Classic Louisiana:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cODPt3T0cHE
sundance435
03-15-19, 09:37
Interdiction has not done very much, if anything, to stop the flow of drugs.
Asset forfeiture has corrupted many officers as well as many agencies. It is telling when state agencies facing budget crunches limit the miles their road troops can drive each day, but let the interdiction heroes do anything they want.
Interdictions amount to a drop in a 55 gallon drum, but if you're going to have a "War on Drugs", you still have to do it. It forces cartels to figure interdictions into their calculations and can cause mistakes elsewhere. My guess is we'd be even more awash in drugs if the cartels knew we weren't doing interdictions. Personally, I couldn't care less if someone wants to shoot up or smoke the hard stuff, as long as it doesn't impact me and I'm not paying for it in some other way - thin the herd.
Making something forbidden often makes it popular.
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