View Full Version : CCW: RDS or Iron Sights?
I had a discussion with a friend of mine who is adding an RMR for his duty pistol. He told me I am the only person, apart from other cops, he has seen use a RDS on a pistol. To his point, I've never seen anyone at my gun club or at my local indoor range with any type of RDS on a pistol. I've been shooting G19 w/ RMR enough recently that I'm really comfortable with it, so I've starting to carry that more often in lieu of my G19 w/ irons. It made me wonder, how many of my fellow M4cers carry with some sort of RDS? What is your thought process behind your carry option?
Irons for me. The benefits of RDS are documented-see the study by Karl Rehn for example. BUT, those benefits are not substantial and require tradeoffs I'm not willing to make at this time. As I age and my eye sight degrades I will re visit the matter.
Coal Dragger
02-26-19, 18:45
I’m planning to go RDS on my carry gun, and am contemplating ordering a Nighthawk Custom 9mm double stack with their new optic mounting system to carry. Have to do it appendix to conceal that much pistol, but want to try it.
I’m trying to proactively learn the RDS presentation and work through the training issues before I cannot see my iron sights well anymore. My corrected vision is still very good with contact lenses and I don’t need reading glasses, but I’m 40 now and the day is approaching when iron sights may not resolve well for me. I plan for it to be a non issue.
RMR all day. I shoot much more better with it, that’s all there is to it.
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Well, my carry guns have both.
Well, my carry guns have both.
Ok, what he said.
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Business_Casual
02-26-19, 19:14
I mostly carry RMR, but I had a long period of adjustment to it.
Half and half.
G19 w/rmr, or shield w/irons when I cant hide it/npe.
I shoot the rmr a little better. I train 4days/week+, mostly dry practice.
For people that dont train regularly, my opinion is that they are better served with irons, but my sample size is small.
Irons all the way
56 and have good eyes I guess.
Can still hit 4 inch targets at will at 20 yards
Can get better with red dot at longer distances but
Don't see doing this for self defense.
HardToHandle
02-26-19, 21:15
RDS + Irons.
Why eliminate lead from gasoline? Embracing some positive change can work right out well.
kaltesherz
02-26-19, 22:47
I fought the RDS on pistol advice for years and finally gave in... totally worth it.
https://i.imgur.com/YrTM3aj.jpg
I have a back up for my two RDS equipped glocks that does not have an RDS. But my primary carry is rotated between two RMR equipped guns. The adjustment for me didn't take but a half hour. The performance increase is too much to ignore. You can watch your misses as they happen. You can call your shots and know when the round hit the plate and it didn't fall. You can make hits at 100y with minimal effort. You can place your shots exactly where you want them. Shot placement.
Shot placement is constantly touted when it comes to handguns.
RMR will improve shot placement.
The future is now, old man.
Finally got to shoot an RDS gun (one of Pappabears Sigs). Not as bad as I had imagined. But I would never run one for defense. I find myself looking for the irons anyway. Maybe it takes some getting used to.
Business_Casual
02-27-19, 18:27
Finally got to shoot an RDS gun (one of Pappabears Sigs). Not as bad as I had imagined. But I would never run one for defense. I find myself looking for the irons anyway. Maybe it takes some getting used to.
It does, you have to practice and do a lot of dry runs. It is just your programming from years of irons.
Finally got to shoot an RDS gun (one of Pappabears Sigs). Not as bad as I had imagined. But I would never run one for defense. I find myself looking for the irons anyway. Maybe it takes some getting used to.
It does take getting used to, but different amounts for different people (just like anything else). I picked it up much quicker than I expected from what I’d heard online. But then again I’m also fishing for the dot more now that I’ve also started shooting an irons only 1911 just as much, so it needs to be constant, again like everything else.
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If thats what you shoot all the time, you should use a RDS, otherwise no thank you. Most altercations are pretty close, so most of us that shoot weekly would be challenged to miss a center mass shot.
YMMV
PB
In the same boat currently. Bought a FN 509T wtih a Vortex RMR. 2 range trips, about 200 rounds shot, and .... boy, I suck. I'm not sure if the dot is quite centered (had to rush last session since some cops were there and we were BS'ing since I happened to work with their mom), which is likely some of it. Plus the 509 is a new pistol to me, so there's that.
I WANT to get better with it. Like, I'm trying to give it a real effort. I know a RDS on a rifle is great, ergo, it should transfer to a pistol.
But man, it's painful.
I have carried both ways.
At self defense distances I’m faster with iron sights: PB to 15 yards. But the Trijicon RMR makes shooting further and further out much easier (25-50 yards).
My current rotation of a Glock 19 and Glock 27 do not have RDS.
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Pick whatever works for you.
noonesshowmonkey
02-27-19, 20:54
I recently acquired a gen 5 Glock 19 MOS and put an RM01 on it.
After taking it to the range for approximately 500 rounds of fire, I have not yet started carrying it in lieu of the gen 4 that I otherwise normally carry.
After putting my shooting on a timer, I am consistently faster and more accurate with my iron sights pistol than the RMR. That is not to say that I am not fast with the RMR, I just don't put up the best numbers on every run. My accuracy with the RMR is way better for precise shots, and especially for longer range shots or shots that require transitioning the weapon target to target.
Overall, I realize that the RMR is better in absolutely every way. I just need to spend the time and the ammo getting adequate training reps to meet, and then inevitably exceed, my skill levels with my iron sights.
I recently acquired a gen 5 Glock 19 MOS and put an RM01 on it.
After taking it to the range for approximately 500 rounds of fire, I have not yet started carrying it in lieu of the gen 4 that I otherwise normally carry.
After putting my shooting on a timer, I am consistently faster and more accurate with my iron sights pistol than the RMR. That is not to say that I am not fast with the RMR, I just don't put up the best numbers on every run. My accuracy with the RMR is way better for precise shots, and especially for longer range shots or shots that require transitioning the weapon target to target.
Overall, I realize that the RMR is better in absolutely every way. I just need to spend the time and the ammo getting adequate training reps to meet, and then inevitably exceed, my skill levels with my iron sights.
IMHO, a pistol mounted RDS will never be as reliable or as durable as a good quality and properly fit set of hardened steel sights
that have two hardened and locktited set screws to anchor the rear sight in it’s dovetail.
noonesshowmonkey
02-27-19, 21:31
IMHO, a pistol mounted RDS will never be as reliable or as durable as a good quality and properly installed set of hardened steel sights.
#boomer
That's why it has suppressor height irons on it that cowitness the dot.
If you put the time in- it pays off. If not, it will hold you back.
#boomer
That's why it has suppressor height irons on it that cowitness the dot.
If you putnthe time in, its an enabler, not a disabler.
Even completely blocked, Effective shots at SD distance should not be an issue. Theres a few ways to do it.
I know they are not perfect, but the rmr has proven to be way more than durable enough for ccw.
Overall, I realize that the RMR is better in absolutely every way. I just need to spend the time and the ammo getting adequate training reps to meet, and then inevitably exceed, my skill levels with my iron sights.
I don't think it is a correct goal. Your improvement achieved through a dot practice will pull your irons skills up too if you're thoughtful about what you're doing. I think that there always be a range of tasks, dependent on shooter's overall skill and visual acuity, where irons will provide required accuracy and still be faster. I think the right way of doing this is just work on your dot shooting without setting any comparative goals, reflect on what it does to your process, and keep moving forward as an overall shooter. I've been on the dot since May and I am seriously upset with myself for not changing over earlier. What it offers over irons in various ways by far outweighs minimal loss of speed upclose on open targets for me, which the only aspect where irons still win. I say, just shoot the dot, don't worry about irons, and then one day run some drills with irons and be ready to get surprised.
FWIW I’m both faster and more accurate with an RDS. I can outrun a 9mm 1911 with my Roland Special on a bill drill.
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Given that a "self defense" shoot is likely to be sudden, unexpected, relatively close and very quick- no, I do not carry a RDS at this time.
Am I (much) more accurate with it? Yes.
Is that worth the trade off of the slower 1st shot draw? Nope.
If and when I have comparable speed with RDS as with irons, I would gladly carry a gun equipped with one.
Given that a "self defense" shoot is likely to be sudden, unexpected, relatively close and very quick- no, I do not carry a RDS at this time.
Am I (much) more accurate with it? Yes.
Is that worth the trade off of the slower 1st shot draw? Nope.
If and when I have comparable speed with RDS as with irons, I would gladly carry a gun equipped with one.
I don’t remember what my first round times are, I’ll have to compare those this weekend. That being said, my biggest downfall when switching back to irons is the same reason why I love the dot - threat focusing. You have to be a disciplined mofo to maintain front sight focus in a violent encounter. I’m pretty confident that I’m fairly far from that skill.
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I don’t remember what my first round times are, I’ll have to compare those this weekend. That being said, my biggest downfall when switching back to irons is the same reason why I love the dot - threat focusing. You have to be a disciplined mofo to maintain front sight focus in a violent encounter. I’m pretty confident that I’m fairly far from that skill.
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Good point Wake.
At contact to 3 yds.+ I find I don't really take time to find the FS, but see the top of slide in my lower peripheral vision as I focus on target(s).
This is exceptionally fast and hits are always A/C's.
I realize there's no guarantee that a violent encounter will occur in this "Goldilocks zone", but statistically, it will.
And no, I am not advocating "point shooting" or not using sights. Rather, I have found that this works for me, in limited situations.
Good point Wake.
At contact to 3 yds.+ I find I don't really take time to find the FS, but see the top of slide in my lower peripheral vision as I focus on target(s).
This is exceptionally fast and hits are always A/C's.
I realize there's no guarantee that a violent encounter will occur in this "Goldilocks zone", but statistically, it will.
And no, I am not advocating "point shooting" or not using sights. Rather, I have found that this works for me, in limited situations.
No disagreement here.
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I'm going back and forth between trying out a RDS or just sticking with my iron sights. All of the reasons everyone has stated for both sides keep going through my head. We will see what happens in the future but for now nothing but irons for me.
How are you guys slower with an rds if you have irons?
Are you ignoring irons looking for the dot?
Imo, a big part of rds on pistols is not relying on it and being able to use both irons and the dot... maybe become sight-fluid, if you will.
FWIW I’m both faster and more accurate with an RDS. I can outrun a 9mm 1911 with my Roland Special on a bill drill.
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Some folks are better with the dot across the board, although if I shot those two guns you mentioned in a bill drill, I would have been slower with 1911 even if Glock didn't have a dot.
Imo, a big part of rds on pistols is not relying on it and being able to use both irons and the dot... maybe become sight-fluid, if you will.
I dont use irons at all, other than backup for dot failure and check for a dot drift. My game gun does not even have irons. I tried but never found it helpful, or faster, to transition between two different aiming focal depths.
For now, my "carry" handguns are irons only.
That being said, I have a 22/45 with an RDS that I've been screwing with and need to look into a centerfire setup as well. Each year, my vision gets shittier, and I definitely see the benefit to having a dot on a handgun.
noonesshowmonkey
02-28-19, 11:17
How are you guys slower with an rds if you have irons?
I am slower by a measure of hundredths or the occasional tenth of a second, but it I am objectively slower on average.
Which makes sense. I have tens of thousands of presentations with iron sights on my pistol, and thousands of rounds through that particular Glock 19. The groove is pretty deep on it. Which is why my post addressed the training time and ammo necessary with any tool, or change in gear, to acquire the proficiency needed to meet or exceed performance with something that has that much training time on it.
Also, I think it's hilarious that I am probably the first guy in the thread to directly address the training issues associated with transition to an RDS from years and countless reps with standard handguns, and folks are taking that as a cue to patronize with unsolicited advice.
RDS is objectively better for so many reasons. Single focal plane vs three (target+dot vs front sight, rear sight, target), the ability to transition those planes laterally from target to target, the very tight feedback loop that the dot provides for input into the gun during a trigger press, a bright & clear focal point vs whatever mute dot (even a bright yellow front sight post isn't an illuminated dot)... And I'm not even coming up with everything.
I own one, and train with one, but need more time with it before I feel comfortable saying that I can do everything with it that I can do with a Glock 19 that I've carried for years, trained with for countless reps, and can run like a raped ape. I haven't taken the time and money to burn a case or two of ammo through it with a shot timer on my belt the way that I did with my other Glock 19. My RDS g19 let's me hit 6" plates at 25 yards all day with essentially zero effort, but I am just a hair slower on average in more practical distances, especially when firing into headshot A-zones at 7-10 yards. Until that gap closes, which takes training that I have yet to finance or set aside time for, I'll stick with my other Glock.
Some folks are better with the dot across the board, although if I shot those two guns you mentioned in a bill drill, I would have been slower with 1911 even if Glock didn't have a dot.
I assumed most people, including myself, would be the opposite. Granted I have had A LOT more time on the Glock than the 1911 and my Glock is heavily modded, but I still expected to be better with the 1911. That being said, I think my times were maybe .2 or .3 difference.
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I presume (never shot one) that the comp on Roland would give Glock some advantage, and specifically negate some of RDS tracking issues. But even without it, I personally could never draw 1911 as fast as Glock, especially from concealment, and for BD the draw is a BD (Big Deal).
Failure2Stop
02-28-19, 15:07
IMHO, a pistol mounted RDS will never be as reliable or as durable as a good quality and properly installed set of hardened steel sights.
I have seen a sufficient number of properly installed Glock sights pop off, drift, or suffer performance-destructive damage that I do not trust them any more than properly installed mini-dots of high quality.
Failure2Stop
02-28-19, 15:38
On first exposure I did not care for slide-mounted dots, but I figured that the only way I would be able to objectively approach the subject would be to build a dot gun.
Since then, I have gradually warmed to them.
The final straw was when I was engrossed in insomnia and pondering the inherent accuracy capability of the G26, but the limitation of iron sights on that gun, and the negative effects of recoil with regard to dot in optic tracking, and decided to go straight to 11 and made my "Trollin' Special": G27 with .40, 9mm, and .357 Sig barrels; RMR, brakes, light at-home dremel work to the triggerguard undercut, and a Tau Development SCD.
After a few hundred rounds of vetting it is now my daily carry gun in 9mm, in a Dark Star Gear AIWB G17 holster.
I couldn't like it any more than I do.
In fact, between time and experience with it and my "real" Roland Special, I have decided to mini-dot ALL of my pistols.
Maybe when Larry Vickers and Ken Hackathorn start using RDS on their personal carry pistols I will consider and give them a try. Whatever works for you and gets you through is the correct answer, as one size seldom fits all. Also, when choosing steel sights, I prefer to use sights that have one or *two hardened set screws prepped and locktited or staked down* to give added insurance over the just drift in type, so it will be close to impossible for the sight to ever shoot loose.
https://shopwilsoncombat.com/Vickers-Elite-Battlesight-for-Glock-Black-Serrated/productinfo/669B/
I would just run iron sights for simplicity sake.
I dont use irons at all, other than backup for dot failure and check for a dot drift. My game gun does not even have irons. I tried but never found it helpful, or faster, to transition between two different aiming focal depths.
Im not talking about switching- im talking about using irons as a reference in conjunction with the dot.
If you look for irons in the peripherals, using the dot when its there will just happen because its so distracting ime.
At, say, 5 yds... im not waiting on the dot, im breaking the shot as the gun settles making adjustments based on irons- with a target focus. The dot usually appears somewhere during the press before the break. Depending on target size/disrance, Ill know if I need to reshoot or not. As I said, relying on the dot will slow you down. I used to do it, until reading that somewhere and it cut my times down quite a bit.
Edit- going by memory- i think you (and some others in this thread) are a better shooter than I, so dont take this as saying its “the way”. Just putting what I do out there for people to try/discuss.
MountainRaven
02-28-19, 21:21
Maybe when Larry Vickers and Ken Hackathorn start using RDS on their carry pistols I will consider and try them also, but last I heard they are still running steel sights on their carry pistols. Whatever works for you and gets you through is the correct answer, as one size seldom fits all (vision issues, atigmatism, etc.). Also, when choosing steel sights, I prefer to use sights that have one or *two hardened set screws* to give added insurance over the just drift in type, so it will be close to impossible for the sight to shoot loose.
https://shopwilsoncombat.com/Vickers-Elite-Battlesight-for-Glock-Black-Serrated/productinfo/669B/
And Jeff Cooper believed the 1911 in 45 Auto was the perfect defensive handgun until the day that he died.
Ken and Larry are instructors and thus mostly run what their students are most likely to run.
I'm guessing LAV will start running a red dot once the ACRO hits the market and Ken will probably follow.
I'm guessing in five-to-ten years, the dot will be the norm for people who carry guns professionally. As it is, I don't see all that many dudes who weren't very recently gunslingers - guys who have gotten out of SOF in the last decade - who aren't carrying a gun with a dot by default.
Neither Larry nor Ken used RDS enabled pistols in their professional careers, which didn't revolve around concealed carry btw, and I am not sure what makes them experts on this particular subset of shooting and carrying subject. I am going to hazard a guess that if they don't embrace or endorse this in some sort of way, ACRO or no ACRO, they may find themselves much less relevant as instructors soon. Ken probably doesn't care, but for LAV this may become an issue. His former unit contracts world class competitive shooters to teach them how to shoot, and how to shoot the dot specifically. As those dudes retire and look for a post-retirement supplemental income, if that niche of the training market is available, they'll take it.
Edit- going by memory- i think you (and some others in this thread) are a better shooter than I, so dont take this as saying its “the way”. Just putting what I do out there for people to try/discuss.
Nah, your memory has let you down, I am a meh level shooter.
I don't think there is "the way". Whatever gives you the desired result is the way.
As far as not waiting for the dot, that's an interesting discussion too. I've heard it from very strong shooters when shooting open targets at short distances, and done that myself. It does work indeed, most of the time, but occasionally it leads to spectacular misses. So I am now trying to train myself out of it. Dunno if this is right but that's kind of what I believe in at this point in time.
I have carried a Glock 19 with a type 1 RMR for the past 2 years, 5,000 rounds, 2 courses, and competed in close to 30 matches during this time. on to of some of the information I will get into later in this post, it is worth mentioning that the RMR itself is also a huge aid in dryfire practice, because it gives instant feedback on every part of you drill from grip, draw, sight alignment, trigger control. can you get the information elsewhere? meh, yeah. but the dot is right in front of your face, it is instant, and it is more sensitive than anything else you could potentially use.
Here is my take, and reply to a lot of common arguments.
1. Dot's are slower -A. take a class from a reputable instructor. B. spend more time behind the dot. we were all slow when first transitioning to a dot, however if your draw is on point, your dot SHOULD come right into your field of view. If you find yourself searching for the dot, take a self assessment of your draw.
2. Dot's aren't as reliable as irons. - Bet you have an optic on all your carbines right? your poor 1990's argument is poor. I've seen plenty of guns throw their irons, from loose dovetails causing drift to Locktite failing. PCI's are around for a reason. when you clean your gun, check screw torque. It takes 2 seconds. I have actioned my slide off of absolutely everything from car steering wheels, boots, tables, my leg, Etc. and have never had my RMR come loose. Part of this I attribute to Atei's hammer fit RMR channel.
3. I'll likely be engaging within 3-7 yards and won't have time to find the dot. - first, re-read my first point. Second, the red dot fundamentals from your carbine still apply to your handgun, we can all agree in a self defense situation you are going to focus on the threat and not your irons. Coincidentally how you should properly employ your dot.
The future is now, old men.
I'm not running an RMR, but that's because I have no time on one. While I should probably carry the same one or two guns at most, I rotate 4 or 5. While I'm sure it would make sense to focus on getting great with one or two instead of maintaining proficiency with several, I don't think I'd make the leap until I can do it for at least 3 of my guns; nightstand, carry, and BUG. When I've solidified this lineup, and all those models are RDS capable, I can see making the transition.
I'm not running an RMR, but that's because I have no time on one. While I should probably carry the same one or two guns at most, I rotate 4 or 5. While I'm sure it would make sense to focus on getting great with one or two instead of maintaining proficiency with several, I don't think I'd make the leap until I can do it for at least 3 of my guns; nightstand, carry, and BUG. When I've solidified this lineup, and all those models are RDS capable, I can see making the transition.
What’s the difference between your nightstand and carry gun? My RS checks both of those boxes.
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What’s the difference between your nightstand and carry gun? My RS checks both of those boxes.
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I don’t carry with a light either.
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grizzlyblake
03-01-19, 07:26
I 100% want to go RDS on my G19 this year. I think the only reason it's not blowing up as the norm like it is on carbines is because it takes more effort to get the mounting squared away. Any old Joe six pack can walk into his LGS and buy a carbine and an Aimpoint/EO/whatever and it takes two seconds to mount it.
The Glock MOS system is kind of weird and most guys aren't going to do the research to find a reputable slide milling guy and ship their slide out.
My point is that it isn't the actual red dot on a pistol shooting practice that isn't taking off, but it's 1000x more effort to make it happen versus a carbine.
I 100% want to go RDS on my G19 this year. I think the only reason it's not blowing up as the norm like it is on carbines is because it takes more effort to get the mounting squared away. Any old Joe six pack can walk into his LGS and buy a carbine and an Aimpoint/EO/whatever and it takes two seconds to mount it.
The Glock MOS system is kind of weird and most guys aren't going to do the research to find a reputable slide milling guy and ship their slide out.
My point is that it isn't the actual red dot on a pistol shooting practice that isn't taking off, but it's 1000x more effort to make it happen versus a carbine.
Absolutely agree. If the MOS platform was better, I think it’d be a lot different.
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I thought it was pretty effortless. drop shipped to Atei, had it back in my lap by the end of the week.
I thought it was pretty effortless. drop shipped to Atei, had it back in my lap by the end of the week.
Damn dude, mine took six weeks I think. Either way, it’s far different than just buying it from the store. Ready to go right there and one price.
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It's a catch 22.
Glock tried to capitalize on that instant gratification crowd and that was a flunk. I believe last I looked they sell factory Glocks pre cut with RMR for a package price.
grizzlyblake
03-01-19, 08:17
Yeah for sure it's not a huge deal for someone who wants to do it and will make the effort, but that's not most gun buyers.
Anyway, yeah, I'm thinking a RDS G19 might be the most versatile firearm one can have in 2019 America. Carbines are neat and all but in reality, unless you're LE they just sit in the safe until range time (or Instagram pic time). I keep looking at getting a Sionics or Centurion carbine, but then I think pragmatically that I don't even really depend on my box stock 6720 as a tool.
The nightstand gun vs. carry gun thing is weird to me too because at my house my wife and I get home and our carry Glocks go on our respective night stands each night. If a gun is needed at night it's our carry guns. Simple. I don't ever bring out the carbine.
So in my case, and probably a ton of others, a red dot G19 and light covers about every conceivable situation when out and about, and again at home. Unless WOLVERINES! goes down of course.
It would be cool if someone would hook up with Glock and do like Davidsons or TALO guns that come in either Aimpoint ACRO or Trij RMR milled configuration brand new in the gun store case. Then maybe Instagram would catch up and pistols would become cool again.
The nightstand gun vs. carry gun thing is weird to me too because at my house my wife and I get home and our carry Glocks go on our respective night stands each night. If a gun is needed at night it's our carry guns. Simple. I don't ever bring out the carbine.
Carbine IS my night stand gun :cool:
Great discussion gentlemen. Lot’s of good points to consider overall. We have a fairly even split between folks here that do carry with RDS at least some of the time vs those that stick strictly with irons. With USSOCOM adopting the RMR, I think we will see everything trend way more towards carry with RDS, especially as those soldiers using RDS while serving leave the Army and become the next generation of firearms instructors.
kaltesherz
03-04-19, 18:58
I think a big reason they haven't caught on like they did with carbines is there's a learning curve. With a shoulder mounted RDS everyone immediately sees the value, with a pistol it's very awkward for awhile. Telling someone if they invest $1k and 1000 rounds of training it'll pay off isn't as catchy because a lot of serious shooters feel like irons are "good enough".
For me one of the huge advantages is keeping both eyes open when shooting which I could never do well with irons. It's also more accurate and I wouldn't be surprised if my times go down. It's still going to a bit more training before I feel 100% comfortable but I'm also there. For years I fought the suggestion to try RDS and I'm so glad I finally gave in.
https://i.imgur.com/QniNEIQ.gif
Everybody always claims to have thousands of rounds through their guns a year as is so.....:rolleyes:
Yeah for sure it's not a huge deal for someone who wants to do it and will make the effort, but that's not most gun buyers.
Anyway, yeah, I'm thinking a RDS G19 might be the most versatile firearm one can have in 2019 America. Carbines are neat and all but in reality, unless you're LE they just sit in the safe until range time (or Instagram pic time). I keep looking at getting a Sionics or Centurion carbine, but then I think pragmatically that I don't even really depend on my box stock 6720 as a tool.
The nightstand gun vs. carry gun thing is weird to me too because at my house my wife and I get home and our carry Glocks go on our respective night stands each night. If a gun is needed at night it's our carry guns. Simple. I don't ever bring out the carbine.
So in my case, and probably a ton of others, a red dot G19 and light covers about every conceivable situation when out and about, and again at home. Unless WOLVERINES! goes down of course.
It would be cool if someone would hook up with Glock and do like Davidsons or TALO guns that come in either Aimpoint ACRO or Trij RMR milled configuration brand new in the gun store case. Then maybe Instagram would catch up and pistols would become cool again.
I'm not LE but I sit in my office 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. There is a loaded rifle within reach at all times. I have one in my truck. I have several in my home.....So....I would venture to say that at least 80% of the hours of any given day, I have a rifle within reach. The only times I DON'T have a rifle around is maybe the few times I go into a store or restaurant, working in the yard........which is two, three times a week...I don't go out a lot...but then, I don't need to.
I ordered a RMR cut slide for one of my Glock 17's. Going to use a Holosun 507 on it, they get very good reviews from people I trust so I guess we'll see how bad it is.....I have 2,000 rounds of CCI Blazer that I bought in 2006 that needs to be shot up that I will dedicate to the project. If I can't learn to run a Pistol Dot with that, then forget it.
Falshooter
03-05-19, 14:35
I my opinion, a front sight only, or black sights will relegate this handgun to range use only.
If you use co-witnessing night sights, then it could be used as a carry firearm, if the caliber, quality & reliability are there.
I don't see your intended use in your post. I am running suppressor height tritiums to co-witness with my RMR's.
I my opinion, a front sight only,
or black sights will relegate this
handgun to range use only.
If you use co-witnessing night
sights, then it could be used as
a carry firearm, if the caliber,
quality & reliability are there.
I don't see your intended use
in your post. I am running
suppressor height tritiums
to co-witness with my RMR's.
Uhm, no, just no. We've fought two World Wars and many police actions and every police shooting up until maybe 1985 was done with plain iron sights. They didn't somehow quit working just because tritium was put in sights or someone mounted a red dot on a handgun. There are many people dead and buried a long time that would have to admit that iron sights work just fine.
I my opinion, a front sight only, or black sights will relegate this handgun to range use only.
If you use co-witnessing night sights, then it could be used as a carry firearm, if the caliber, quality & reliability are there.
I don't see your intended use in your post. I am running suppressor height tritiums to co-witness with my RMR's.
I think it defeats the purpose, the inserts distract my eyes away from the dot. All black irons on a RDS for me.
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kaltesherz
03-05-19, 17:56
Must be a personal preference as I'm running suppressor sights with tritium (both front and rear). Irons have green dots, RMR is red- I've had zero issues with that.
I am sure that my single non co-witnessed front sight will get me killed in the streets. I haven't missed much with it on B-8 target out to 10 yards, but internet says must co-witness...
Falshooter
03-06-19, 06:23
Depends on how much the iron sights are blocking my vision. But on my best gun, the AEK, I use iron sights. Has been like that in BF3 as well. Tried to use a dot sight... my recoil handling became worse somehow lol.
Heavy4Caliber
03-06-19, 15:10
Carbine IS my night stand gun :cool:
This...^^^
ViniVidivici
03-06-19, 16:07
Irons on sidearms all around here at casa de Vini, only because budgetary constraints keep me from being able to give it a try.
More focused in other directions at this time.
I think it defeats the purpose, the inserts distract my eyes away from the dot. All black irons on a RDS for me.
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I was wondering that same thing and if it would be an issue. I read kaltesherz's post after yours so definitely no answer one way or another if it is an issue or not.
I was wondering that same thing and if it would be an issue. I read kaltesherz's post after yours so definitely no answer one way or another if it is an issue or not.
I think it’s like BUIS in front of or behind the optic, or irons in general - completely subjective. But I do know that I prefer them blacked out.
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Everybody always claims to have thousands of rounds through their guns a year as is so.....:rolleyes:
Made me laugh.:D
I don't run an RDS for a simple reason, I don't think I need it. When carrying, I like the KISS method. When I normally carry on me its a M&P Shield, and while off body carrying at work, Vertx bag in a corporate setting, could have one on my CZ P10c, but I really don't see the need. I don't fault anyone who does, but per this discussion it seems like its more of a personal choice then a need one way or the other. I had an old Burris Fastfire on a M&P 9 Pro, but I sold that along with the pistol and haven't felt the need to go back. I totally understand the need for a weapon light, but not an RDS.
I have switched to RDS this year. At 70 my vision is still pretty good but I find that I shoot better with the dot than irons. I use dots on all my ar's, transition to RDS on pistols wasn't difficult. I use Dawson Precision all black sights that sit just above the rear deck of the dot as back up.
If I happen to be carrying a gun, I want maximum concealability. The largest pistol I ever carry is a Walther PPS M2, so RMR is a no go, even it happened to be available for a gun that small. Statistically, in the extraordinarily unlikely event I'd ever need a gun to save my life, it will happen at a distance where an RMR would be utterly superfluous.
noonesshowmonkey
03-09-19, 11:32
Incidentally, I burned up a half case of 9mm in a couple of range sessions since last I posted here. My shot times are cleaning up magnificently. RDS handguns are really sensitive to the drawstroke. Your presentation can't be off, or you won't see the dot. My other 19 has Vickers u-notch HD sights, and that front sight post is easy to pick up, even if your weapon isn't perfectly aligned. This let's you get away with a lot. An RDS does not. It shows you exactly what you're doing, which is one of the reasons that I like them so much.
Anyway, the RDS glock is now riding full time in my eidolon (as if anyone cares, but it is). All told, it took a lot of dryfire draws, and a good bit of ammo on a timer to clean up the presentations and get the speed back to where my other weapon is. But, really, it really isn't that much. As in, it is not an excuse to not run an RDS.
I'd like to try a RDS on a S&W 2.0, vz61 or Beretta Cheetah.
I don't see any mounts available for them.
I did find one for my Gp100, but then it wont go in a holster.
Perhaps it isn't more popular because there are few rds capable carry guns and there are few rds capable carry guns because they aren't very popular?
Like I said I'd like to try it out, sans Glock.
I'd like to try a RDS on a S&W 2.0, vz61 or Beretta Cheetah.
I don't see any mounts available for them.
I did find one for my Gp100, but then it wont go in a holster.
Perhaps it isn't more popular because there are few rds capable carry guns and there are few rds capable carry guns because they aren't very popular?
Like I said I'd like to try it out, sans Glock.
Get the M&P cut for a red dot.
It's not popular? This weekend at my gun club the only people shooting without RMR's on their guns were my guests who didn't even have holsters.
You can buy most holsters that are worth a shit to accommodate an optic.
People who don't want to wait for a service or pay for a service, but will buy more guns in lieu of massively increasing the performance of a gun already owned kind of confuse me.
I don't know, maybe I like shooting more than I like guns...
So many guys are putting their slides under the grinder, eh?
I'll research who does it and what a fair price is and how it affects reliability.
So many guys are putting their slides under the grinder, eh?
I'll research who does it and what a fair price is and how it affects reliability.
Oh yea!
Big reason I've gone Glock is for the dot. I can send out my slide to Jagerwerks or ATEi and get it cut for an RMR. I used to be a big HK guy, but the only economic mounting options for HK's is on the VP9 and I'm a huge USP fan.
At this point, I shop for guns based on "who can cut it for an RMR?"
It is THAT much of a game changer.
I have a RMR on my carry G19.5 and just ordered one for my duty gun, G17. After a training work up, I am faster on the clock an my scores did improve. My 19X and G21 will be getting RMR'd as money allows. Like with the move from irons to a dot with rifles, this is the future of fighting handguns and the M17 is going out red dot ready. More and more law enforcement agencies are either buying or approving for carry guns with MRDS systems. I won't buy a gun I couldn't put a RMR on at this point. There is that much of a difference.
The younger generation of instructors are running RMRs or other MRDS systems almost exclusively. Aaron Cowan, Steve Fisher, Scott Jedlinski, Chuck Pressburg, and Jon Dufresne to name a few. They also have guns with iron sights and still use them but per their own videos and social media posts, they prefer to run a MRDS for EDC. Hackathorn and Vickers aren't running RMRs, but guns equipped with them are showing up in their classes.
Pretty soon they'll have LPVOs on pistols. :rolleyes:
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