View Full Version : First AR. Questions about sights, optics, and magazines
Finishing up my first AR build. Aero lower with BCM LPK. Complete 14.5 midlength BCM upper with Midwest industries ssk12 rail.
Few questions I need advice on.
1. I am new to AR platform and rifles in general. Right now I have no sights. Since I am new is it better to a) buy a cheap RDS to practice on like a holosun/primary arms or b) buy a set of BUIS like the Magpul pros to learn on irons before any optics at all?
3. Should I get gen 2 or gen 3 pmags? Any major advantage to the gen 3? I will probably one day replace the aero lower with a BCM lower and use this lower on another build and I heard gen 3s may not work well with the BCM lower.
Thanks and pics for attention. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190228/fc9e7eaadf06fe17ca93988dbad952c2.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190228/357e2f807fd480e0aaffd1709abf57d6.jpg
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Welcome to the world of AR's! If you are new to rifles and shooting in general, most traditionalists would likely recommend learning on a set of iron sights. This is a fundamental skill that will serve you well with many rifles. However, a red dot sight is a joy to use and is super simple for one getting started or for the pros. You can invest lots of money in a high-end red dot like an Aimpoint that works great and is bombproof, but you can buy something at a small fraction of the cost like a Primary Arms for less than $90. See: https://www.primaryarms.com/primary-arms-microdot-with-removable-base-gen-2 . I have purchased both and use both. If I knew I was going to be deployed for 6 months and carrying the rifle every day, I'd prefer the Aimpoint, but realistically, the Primary Arms will hold up great. Use the price difference to buy ammo and train. Good luck!
bulldozer3
02-27-19, 22:07
Get a quality set of irons and shoot that until you have the cash for a quality red dot.
Cheap red dots will fail. Or just randomly shift so you dont know if your shooting is to blame or the optic. (Yes, quality optics can fail also).
Good choice on the BCM upper and lpk.
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There's no reason to have to learn irons first; however, you're better off putting a set of quality irons on the gun than a cheap optic for the same money. I'd buy good irons (the Magpuls you mentioned are fine) and save for an Aimpoint PRO. I wouldn't worry too much about PMAG generation; both run fine. I've got no experience with the BCM lower/Gen 3 potential issue. Also, there is absolutely nothing wrong with good GI mags w/anti-tilt (Magpul) followers. These are my preference, honestly, due to the general ease in which they stow and slide in/out of pouches.
1. I am new to AR platform and rifles in general. Right now I have no sights. Since I am new is it better to a) buy a cheap RDS to practice on like a holosun/primary arms or b) buy a set of BUIS like the Magpul pros to learn on irons before any optics at all?
I would go right to the RDS and get a middle-of-the road one to start.
I don't know your age, but some older shooters have trouble with the dot flaring because of presbyopia. If that is the case an etched reticle optic may be a good choice. I have several. I prefer the Vortex Spitfire 1x Prism for an un-magnified optic - the DRT reticle is less cluttered and more user friendly than others I have. At $199.99 here, you wont break the bank: https://www.opticsplanet.com/vortex-spitfire-1x-prism-scope-w-drt-moa-reticle.html
If you have good, young eyes the Aimpoint PRO is still a solid choice. They generally go between 400.00 and 450.50ish, this seems to be a good enough deal: https://www.skdtac.com/Aimpoint-PRO-Patrol-Rifle-Optic-p/aim.310.htm
Another option is a LPVO (Low Power Variable Optic) scope. Generally 1 to 4 or 1.5 to 6 power. Generally with an illuminated reticle. At 1 power you are right in RDS territory, and of course, at higher magnification you have the increased precision that a magnified optic offers. A good, for the money, entry level IMO is the Burris MTA 1-4: https://www.burrisoptics.com/scopes/mtac-riflescopes-series/mtac-riflescope-1-4x24mm I prefer the Ballistic AR reticle, I have the Ballistic CQ reticle in an AR332 3X Prism and don't like it near as well as my MTAC with AR.
I'd go optic over iron sights first if you can afford it. In your second question you talk about building another. This is one of the reasons that I use middle-of-the-road optics on my range AR's - you end up with 6 or 7 in the safe and it gets pretty rough going out $600 plus on optics for range rifles.
3. Should I get gen 2 or gen 3 pmags? Any major advantage to the gen 3? I will probably one day replace the aero lower with a BCM lower and use this lower on another build and I heard gen 3s may not work well with the BCM lower.
Generally, you can get quality USGI mags for a couple bucks cheaper than Magpuls and not have the problem.
Don’t over look the polymer magpul mbus sights. They have been proven time and time again to be durable and consistent. They are affordable lightweight and dependable, I never hesitate to recommend them.
Dr. Bullseye
02-27-19, 23:17
I was in your shoes three years ago and spent two years with irons and still love them. I have a prism sight and a red dot but still like irons better. The basic mag is a USGI. That would be an aluminium USGI. They just snap in and feel like,...... like,.............like victory! Get at least one so you will know how the baseline feels and works and then branch out into other mags.
Don’t over look the polymer magpul mbus sights. They have been proven time and time again to be durable and consistent. They are affordable lightweight and dependable, I never hesitate to recommend them.
Durable maybe. Consistent, no- at least not in my experience.
grizzlyblake
02-28-19, 06:03
I wouldn't waste time or money buying anything cheap. I don't understand the logic of buying cheap optics and parts "until you can buy better" which seems really common.
Anyway, you didn't mention a budget so I'll go low. Get a set of Daniel Defense fixed irons and an Aimpoint PRO. That's about as cheap and durable as you can get.
Unless of course you want to do your own research, go put eyes on optics in stores, etc. and decide for yourself. Just stick with normal grade stuff like Aimpoint, EOTech, etc.
Straight Shooter
02-28-19, 06:31
Don’t over look the polymer magpul mbus sights. They have been proven time and time again to be durable and consistent. They are affordable lightweight and dependable, I never hesitate to recommend them.
Durable maybe. Consistent, no- at least not in my experience.
I just this week bought a set of steel flip-up sights from Aero Precision for well under $100 shipped. My third set & theyve been excelllent. Id never use poly sights.
Its hard to go against guys like 26Inf & others here who really know their shit. I may/may not be older than he or the others, but I think us older dudes are generally gonna recommend sights first, then optic, cause its what we were brought up on, long before Rd's existed..they work, they've won multiple wars, and are rock solid reliable & dependable. Admittedly, I do not have anywhere near the time behind quality RD's as many here do.
But as for me & my house, Id never own a rifle w/o irons...Im building a 20" precision type gun now that'll have them.
As mentioned, you might not always have 100% accuracy with them, but Magpul MBUS are hard to beat, especially when you can get a set at www.palmettostatearmory.com for $49.99 regularly.
When I need a rear sight, my go-to has been the Daniel Defense A1.5. I’ve got two in use now, plus a their front sight that’s going on a free floated Colt. The value is great on sale. Beyond that, the Magpul PRO’s seem very nice, particularly if you expect to keep them as future backup sights to a magnified optic; I have a PRO front sight that I haven’t actually used yet. I did force myself to use irons as I learned the AR; personally, I think it’s kind of a mandatory thing to do, just like driving the Ford Aerostar was mandatory before buying the Mustang.
I’m not the senior guy here, but I can say that once I purchased and used lower-end optics, I wanted to get nicer. I do have a Primary Arms advanced micro red dot sight, and it has worked just fine. With that said, I now just have it as an offset backup to a rifle with a 3-9x scope. My go-to would be the Trijicon MRO, due to seeming to have the same quality as Aimpoint in a smaller/lighter package. Also, Mark Wahlberg used the MRO on an HK416 in Mile 22, so you know it has to be gtg.
GI magazines can be purchased at PSA for $6.99 regularly. Though I have purchased the Okays and have boxes of unopened PMAGS, I’ve never had a problem with the PSA’s, and for someone starting out, that’s all you’ll ever need. But, I do tend to reach for PMAGS to throw in the range bag. Both M2 and M3 PMAGS work fine in my BCM lower purchased last spring.
Renegade04
02-28-19, 08:25
Finishing up my first AR build. Aero lower with BCM LPK. Complete 14.5 midlength BCM upper with Midwest industries ssk12 rail.
Few questions I need advice on.
1. I am new to AR platform and rifles in general. Right now I have no sights. Since I am new is it better to a) buy a cheap RDS to practice on like a holosun/primary arms or b) buy a set of BUIS like the Magpul pros to learn on irons before any optics at all?
3. Should I get gen 2 or gen 3 pmags? Any major advantage to the gen 3? I will probably one day replace the aero lower with a BCM lower and use this lower on another build and I heard gen 3s may not work well with the BCM lower.
Thanks and pics for attention. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190228/fc9e7eaadf06fe17ca93988dbad952c2.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190228/357e2f807fd480e0aaffd1709abf57d6.jpg
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As far as a RDS goes, I would not put any money into something to practice with. Go ahead and buy the RDS that you are going to stick with. If you are on a low budget, there is nothing wrong with the HOLOSUN or Primary Arms RDSs. For the money, they are good optics. VORTEX is another that is very reasonably priced and good quality. If you are not on a strapped budget, I recommend the Trijicon MRO. Right now, LaRue Tactical has the MRO (red-dot) with their LT-839 QD mount for only $440 (on sale).
https://www.larue.com/products/trijicon-mro-qd-mount-combo/
The Aimpoint ACO is another good reasonably priced option.
https://www.primaryarms.com/aimpoint-carbine-optic-aco-red-dot-sight-2-moa-200174
On the BUISs, the MAGPUL MBUS PROs are good stuff. I would also take a look the new Midwest Industries Combat Rifle Sight Set (MI-CRS-SET) for $149.95.
https://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/Combat-Rifle-Sight-Set-p/mi-crs-set.htm
When it comes to PMAGs, I prefer the Gen 2. They work well with everything I have. I have read where some have had fitment and release issues with Gen 3 PMAGs, but not in most cases.
Hammer_Man
02-28-19, 08:26
Get an Aimpoint PRO if you're on a limited budget, or an Aimpoint T2 or Comp M4 if you aren't. Gen 2 or 3 Pmags will work just fine. Daniel Defense fixed sights are pretty good, but I prefer the LMT fixed sights, as they function like a set of A2 sights.
To add to what's already been said, don't just buy an optic blind off of the Internet if you can avoid it. Find a decent local gun shop that carries quality optics and look through them yourself before committing to buying one.
I say this because if you are unfamiliar with red dot and holographic sights you may have eyesight issues you don't even know you have that can make them more difficult to use (astigmatism for example). Even different models from the same brand can vary slightly due to dot size, brightness settings, etc..
Stick with the known quality sights and you'll be set. Aimpoint Pro or Trijicon MRO are good choices if you're on a budget. If you can afford more then look at the Aimpoint T2, Comp M4/M4S, Comp M5/M5s, or an EoTech EXPS3.
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I have an affordable primary arms 1-6X variable ACSS and am happy with it. I just wouldn't recommend their house brand mounts.
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crosseyedshooter
02-28-19, 15:55
I learned to shoot rifles with iron sights on a 10/22. There’s a great satisfaction that comes with hitting bottle caps at 25 yards using irons. With that said, the three ARs I have with flip-up iron sights and some kind of optical sight have never utilized the irons after initial zeroing.
If I only had one AR, I would make sure it had dependable iron sights as well as proven optics. You don’t want to ruin a range trip or lose the use of you rifle if a red dot fails and needs to be repaired. I haven’t had good experience with budget red dots but I don’t mind them on plinking rifles. I had a Bushnell TRS-25 where the dot disappeared in a third of the window and warrantied then sold it. I have a Holosun where the elevation screw didn’t move the dot until a loud “snap” and the dot jumped halfway down the window. It sits on a 15-22 that also has a set of MBUS.
Also, one other option to consider is purchasing your optics used on the Equipment Exchange on this forum. Good way to help someone else offload no longer needed kit while saving you some money. Win-win.
fingerguns
02-28-19, 23:16
If you spend any time on the forums you will end up convincing yourself you need a T2 or a Nightforce ACTAR within months of getting your AR. Get some irons and have fun, learn your holds and buy ammo. An honest assessment of my needs brings me back to irons every time. Simple is hard to argue with in most cases.
Renegade0100
03-01-19, 10:19
1) A Holosun will be fine and will last you throughout all of your needs. It's not 2009 anymore; inexpensive red dots are nearly equal in quality and durability to the big players (Aimpoint, Eotech, etc), but at a fraction of the cost. LPVO's are getting there too with Primary Arms and the Strike Eagle offerings, but there's still a larger gap with magnified optics. Logically as technology is improved and refined, manufacturing costs decrease.
That being said, if you plan this to be your only rifle, I would hold off and get an Aimpoint or Eotech for the marginal increase in quality/durability. However, I wouldn't feel bad carrying a Holosun into combat; they work. My main squeeze has an Aimpoint, and the rest have Holosuns, as it's a lot easier to outfit 5 rifles with $125 Holosuns than $600 Aimpoints.
Regarding irons, I like to have a set on my rifle. Practically though, I would get the red dot first as that's going to be used more and is ultimately far more important for actually shooting the rifle. I would still purchase a set of MBUIS Pros or something similar and learn how to use them. It's good for learning fundamentals and it's not really too hard.
2) The generation of PMAG is irrelevant, though you could argue that the gen3s are slightly better. PMAGs, Lancers, and the aluminum GI mags are great. The type of mag isn't really super relevant- just buy mags. I like to have a minimum of 6 per rifle, preferably 10, but you can't really have /too/ many mags.
1) A Holosun will be fine and will last you throughout all of your needs. It's not 2009 anymore; inexpensive red dots are nearly equal in quality and durability to the big players (Aimpoint, Eotech, etc), but at a fraction of the cost. LPVO's are getting there too with Primary Arms and the Strike Eagle offerings, but there's still a larger gap with magnified optics. Logically as technology is improved and refined, manufacturing costs decrease.
That being said, if you plan this to be your only rifle, I would hold off and get an Aimpoint or Eotech for the marginal increase in quality/durability. However, I wouldn't feel bad carrying a Holosun into combat; they work. My main squeeze has an Aimpoint, and the rest have Holosuns, as it's a lot easier to outfit 5 rifles with $125 Holosuns than $600 Aimpoints. .
Omfg no. Just no bro
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Outlander Systems
03-01-19, 11:34
He’s right though.
People act like sticking a rheostat and an LED in a metal tube is particle physics.
Omfg no. Just no bro
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RobertTheTexan
03-01-19, 11:51
I wouldn't waste time or money buying anything cheap. I don't understand the logic of buying cheap optics and parts "until you can buy better" which seems really common.
Anyway, you didn't mention a budget so I'll go low. Get a set of Daniel Defense fixed irons and an Aimpoint PRO. That's about as cheap and durable as you can get.
Unless of course you want to do your own research, go put eyes on optics in stores, etc. and decide for yourself. Just stick with normal grade stuff like Aimpoint, EOTech, etc.
OP - This is solid advice. DD fixed buis are great. I started out using them and now I mostly use PRI (Precision Reflex, the guys who make the MK12 Mod 0/H rail for the MK12 SPR) I've also used Troy's fixed sights not because the DD buis fail, but I really prefer the HK style front sight. Personal preference. At any rate, a good set of fixed buis and an Aimpoint Pro are a hard combo to beat for the money. I've seen the Pro's on sale for round $400, but that's not an every day price.
I know guys say the PA/Holoson/Vortex optics are GTG and they are - I own some of both, but they are not on my go to rifles. For those, I do go to tried and true. It's not about the name, but the quality, and if an optic can stand up to the abuse soldiers give it, then you know it's well made. People may say they would take the Holosun or PA RDS into combat, but I have never seen them used in that type of environment, nor would I want to be the "test case".
Listen to the advice of those who have BTDT, there's a reason they are here.
Renegade0100
03-01-19, 12:01
Omfg no. Just no bro
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I'm happy to discuss this, but I first have to ask, do you have any actual experience with them? Aside from my own use, Karl and Ian from InRangeTV, for example, have done extensive testing and have found them to be quite durable and nice. I agree that an Aimpoint T2 will be better than a Holosun, but the Holosun is 98% there for the majority of real-world usage, such as 3gun, 2gun, training, home-defense, or just casual shooting.
grizzlyblake
03-01-19, 12:08
If you're going to buy a Holosun or whatever that is "good enough" wouldn't it make more sense to just buy a gun that's "good enough" if it's all just a toy anyway? Like buy the Holosun and throw it on some WASR or PSA AR if you don't want to spend the money on the good stuff.
Eurodriver
03-01-19, 12:22
I'm happy to discuss this, but I first have to ask, do you have any actual experience with them? Aside from my own use, Karl and Ian from InRangeTV, for example, have done extensive testing and have found them to be quite durable and nice. I agree that an Aimpoint T2 will be better than a Holosun, but the Holosun is 98% there for the majority of real-world usage, such as 3gun, 2gun, training, home-defense, or just casual shooting.
My buddy has a made-in-China LPVO. I will refrain from mentioning the brand but we’re all familiar with it here.
At 800 yards his adjustments are off by a measureable -2/5 MOA. Meaning when he is shooting 8” down instead of coming up 4 clicks (0.25 MOA adjustments) he needs to come up (and more importantly remember) about 4.8” (or 0.6 MOA/2 clicks) . Of course that’s pretty meaningless even if you did shoot that far on a regular basis because the parallax is so bad that even a slight shift of your eye position at 300 yards will result in a complete miss of a target such as a clay pigeon.
My nightforce has no such issues.
For the cheaper red dots, my miser buddies have found issues with their auto adjustments because they can only set a minimum setting.
So you’re shooting outside on minimum setting 5. The sun brings up the dot to an 8 or 9.
“Wow this is so cool.” the misers say. “I’m so glad I’m glad I’m a poor public servant and didn’t get a graduate degree to make big $$$ and afford name brand optics.”
But the misers soon find out that while transitioning to shooting into a darker area under trees their red dot is bloomed the **** out and takes time to reduce its size.
The misers, undeterred by poor performance in the name of saving precious dollars respond “Aww. It’s no big deal. It is still 98% as good as an Aimpoint. I’d rather spend my money on my AMC movie pass and my $85,000 monster truck.”
The irony is that most people harp on folks for buying “combat ready optics” when they’re just owning guns for fun.
It’s ironic because I’ve found the less I view a rifle as a functional tool and more as a way to have fun the less I am tolerant of performance issues. An ACOG that broke in Iraq sucked but I just got a new one after swapping on the irons.
A holosun that goes down on a range trip to my property 3 hours away really sucks dick.
Renegade0100
03-01-19, 12:40
My buddy has a made-in-China LPVO. I will refrain from mentioning the brand but we’re all familiar with it here.
At 800 yards his adjustments are off by a measureable -2/5 MOA. Meaning when he is shooting 8” down instead of coming up 4 clicks (0.25 MOA adjustments) he needs to come up (and more importantly remember) about 4.8” (or 0.6 MOA/2 clicks) . Of course that’s pretty meaningless even if you did shoot that far on a regular basis because the parallax is so bad that even a slight shift of your eye position at 300 yards will result in a complete miss of a target such as a clay pigeon.
My nightforce has no such issues.
For the cheaper red dots, my miser buddies have found issues with their auto adjustments because they can only set a minimum setting.
So you’re shooting outside on minimum setting 5. The sun brings up the dot to an 8 or 9.
“Wow this is so cool.” the misers say. “I’m so glad I’m glad I’m a poor public servant and didn’t get a graduate degree to make big $$$ and afford name brand optics.”
But the misers soon find out that while transitioning to shooting into a darker area under trees their red dot is bloomed the **** out and takes time to reduce its size.
The misers, undeterred by poor performance in the name of saving precious dollars respond “Aww. It’s no big deal. It is still 98% as good as an Aimpoint. I’d rather spend my money on my AMC movie pass and my $85,000 monster truck.”
The irony is that most people harp on folks for buying “combat ready optics” when they’re just owning guns for fun.
It’s ironic because I’ve found the less I view a rifle as a functional tool and more as a way to have fun the less I am tolerant of performance issues. An ACOG that broke in Iraq sucked but I just got a new one after swapping on the irons.
A holosun that goes down on a range trip to my property 3 hours away really sucks dick.
I agree that budget LPVO's are further behind- I noted as such. However, they're still miraculously finding use in the sandbox according to this SF guy:
http://www.defensereview.com/tactical-ar-15-m4-m4a1-carbine-aftermarket-accessories-for-military-cotactical-ar-15-m4-m4a1-carbine-aftermarket-accessories-for-military-combat-applications-the-competition-to-combat-crossover-part/
Now, do I think that running a Strike Eagle or PST in place of a Nightforce or Razor Gen2 is wise? No. There is a much larger difference between the budget LPVOs and top-tier optics than with red dots, but that difference is gradually shrinking. However, FWIW, budget LPVOs are indeed used in some capacity, at least until dudes are issued something better by SOCOM.
Your comments about the potential brightness issues caused by the solar panel on certain Holosun models is no different from the fiber-optic brightness problems with ACOGs; tape it or use the model without it.
Again, if you want a rifle to take to the sandbox, I agree that an Aimpoint or Eotech is the slightly preferable choice, as I noted in my initial comment. However, that doesn't discount that modern budget red dots are incredibly capable, much more so than they once were, and are IMO a perfectly solid option for the overwhelming majority of shooters for the overwhelming majority of activities we would partake in stateside.
He’s right though.
People act like sticking a rheostat and an LED in a metal tube is particle physics.
Next thing you're going to say is it isn't hard for the average neighborhood machine shop to build an AR lower, much less one that routinely fills aerospace orders.
Blasphemy!
Eurodriver
03-01-19, 13:00
I agree that budget LPVO's are further behind- I noted as such. However, they're still miraculously finding use in the sandbox according to this SF guy:
http://www.defensereview.com/tactical-ar-15-m4-m4a1-carbine-aftermarket-accessories-for-military-cotactical-ar-15-m4-m4a1-carbine-aftermarket-accessories-for-military-combat-applications-the-competition-to-combat-crossover-part/
Now, do I think that running a Strike Eagle or PST in place of a Nightforce or Razor Gen2 is wise? No. There is a much larger difference between the budget LPVOs and top-tier optics than with red dots, but that difference is gradually shrinking. However, FWIW, budget LPVOs are indeed used in some capacity, at least until dudes are issued something better by SOCOM.
Your comments about the potential brightness issues caused by the solar panel on certain Holosun models is no different from the fiber-optic brightness problems with ACOGs; tape it or use the model without it.
Again, if you want a rifle to take to the sandbox, I agree that an Aimpoint or Eotech is the slightly preferable choice, as I noted in my initial comment. However, that doesn't discount that modern budget red dots are incredibly capable, much more so than they once were, and are IMO a perfectly solid option for the overwhelming majority of shooters for the overwhelming majority of activities we would partake in stateside.
How far would you like to take that?
Most people would be better suited buying a 10/22 and plinking with that rather than putting ammunition they can’t afford on a credit card already close to being maxed out from weapons. Have you seen most gun owners? “IMO a perfect solid option for the overwhelming majority of shooters” is a cleaner diet and 2.5 hours of cardio and strength training per week.
Of the thousands and thousands of M4C members I think there’s myself and like four other guys who have ever even pointed their CCW at another person in self defense, but how many people on this forum sleep with a ****ing CPAP machine and are on testosterone medication?
M4C.net, P&S, and Lightfighter are the last bastions of the Internet where “just as good as” regarding firearms is not tolerated. I don’t think anyone on this forum is stupid enough to believe that a Holosun would not work for 99.999% of all firearms related activities for every member on this forum (I have even used a Holosun under NV and with an IR LED constantly on it works well)
However, the objective of M4C is to make sure we don’t condone the use of “just as good as” products because saying you’ll be ok 99% of the time with a Holosun to a new shooter creates a slippery slope and next thing you know new guys are asking why their rifles are jamming because they bought a Bob’s M4 Emporium barrel and slapped it in an 80% lower they got at a gun show milled out by a “guy they know” named Cletus.
M4C’s own rules state not to suggest off brand or unproven products to people because the firearms discussed on M4C are always to be thought of as combat ready 24/7. It’s why I stay on this forum. I’ve been banned like no shit 8+ times on here because of the GD echo chamber nonsense. I know the moderators don’t want me here but as long as people are posting data driven and proven results I am going to continue being a thorn in their side.
In return the least I can do is be a thorn in the side of people suggesting sub tier products for their AR platform rifles. :)
grizzlyblake
03-01-19, 13:10
Preach.
I wonder how many dudes have an all set up internet-approved carbine in a safe but don't even carry a quality CCW piece or practice with it.
grizzlyblake
03-01-19, 13:11
*Doubletap removed.*
if you need that many optics, you have too many rifles.
I am a big fan of monogamy
M4C’s own rules state not to suggest off brand or unproven products to people because the firearms discussed on M4C are always to be thought of as combat ready 24/7.
I could not find this, where do you find it?
Not trying to start something - I'm the guy who was standing by the carbide pistol die I was looking for when I called the guy at Cabella's over to help me find the product, so I'm sure I overlooked it.
I could not find this, where do you find it?
Not trying to start something - I'm the guy who was standing by the carbide pistol die I was looking for when I called the guy at Cabella's over to help me find the product, so I'm sure I overlooked it.
Form Follows Function.*
The Good:*Perspective is an important component to understanding what M4C is all about, and our perspective on firearms as working tools can be especially instructive. We all appreciate a particularly well-executed carbine, the best new developments, and the finest accessories and gear.
The Bad:*What makes these components attractive, per the M4C definition, is first and foremost the utility and capability that they provide. While the best tools do possess a certain innate beauty, the "ooh, that looks so cool" subculture that seems to predominate elsewhere in the gun world is not really our forte -- nor is it really welcome here. M4C just isn't the place for expressions of the "pimp your gun" mentality.
The Ugly:*If you're preoccupied with carbine glamor shots and external appearances, or making your purchase and/or modification decisions based largely upon aesthetics, sooner or later you are going to get your feelings hurt. If your awesome-looking carbine is a safe queen that only sees the light of day for photo sessions, we're going to find that pretty pathetic. If your pathetic-looking carbine runs like a sewing machine in class after class, we're going to find that pretty awesome. You get the idea.*
RobertTheTexan
03-01-19, 19:12
Form Follows Function.*
The Good:*Perspective is an important component to understanding what M4C is all about, and our perspective on firearms as working tools can be especially instructive. We all appreciate a particularly well-executed carbine, the best new developments, and the finest accessories and gear.
The Bad:*What makes these components attractive, per the M4C definition, is first and foremost the utility and capability that they provide. While the best tools do possess a certain innate beauty, the "ooh, that looks so cool" subculture that seems to predominate elsewhere in the gun world is not really our forte -- nor is it really welcome here. M4C just isn't the place for expressions of the "pimp your gun" mentality.
The Ugly:*If you're preoccupied with carbine glamor shots and external appearances, or making your purchase and/or modification decisions based largely upon aesthetics, sooner or later you are going to get your feelings hurt. If your awesome-looking carbine is a safe queen that only sees the light of day for photo sessions, we're going to find that pretty pathetic. If your pathetic-looking carbine runs like a sewing machine in class after class, we're going to find that pretty awesome. You get the idea.*
That pretty much sums it up. Now that I read that, you know it's been a long time since anyone has shown up with their Cobalt Kinetics rifle looking for some self-justification....
Good riddance.:cool:
Eurodriver
03-01-19, 19:15
That pretty much sums it up. Now that I read that, you know it's been a long time since anyone has shown up with their Cobalt Kinetics rifle looking for some self-justification....
Good riddance.:cool:
Shut up 2018 M4C member of the year.
Form Follows Function.*
The Good:*Perspective is an important component to understanding what M4C is all about, and our perspective on firearms as working tools can be especially instructive. We all appreciate a particularly well-executed carbine, the best new developments, and the finest accessories and gear.
The Bad:*What makes these components attractive, per the M4C definition, is first and foremost the utility and capability that they provide. While the best tools do possess a certain innate beauty, the "ooh, that looks so cool" subculture that seems to predominate elsewhere in the gun world is not really our forte -- nor is it really welcome here. M4C just isn't the place for expressions of the "pimp your gun" mentality.
The Ugly:*If you're preoccupied with carbine glamor shots and external appearances, or making your purchase and/or modification decisions based largely upon aesthetics, sooner or later you are going to get your feelings hurt. If your awesome-looking carbine is a safe queen that only sees the light of day for photo sessions, we're going to find that pretty pathetic. If your pathetic-looking carbine runs like a sewing machine in class after class, we're going to find that pretty awesome. You get the idea.*
Not trying to quibble, but I don't think you are looking at what Euro is looking at. I'd appreciate it if you'd bold the part that comes close to:
M4C’s own rules state not to suggest off brand or unproven products to people because the firearms discussed on M4C are always to be thought of as combat ready 24/7.
Bottom line is, that while I appreciate the 'get the best you can afford' or 'do without until you save the money for the best' mentality the fact is that folks have differing comfort levels for spending on hobbies, and, more importantly, different levels of responsibility to others.
For most folks it's hard to justify 2,000 geetos for a scope when the kids need clothes, braces, yada yada......
If you are single, or an empty-nester, priorities are different.
Not knowing the OP's circumstances in that respect, I suggested middle of the road gear.
I’ve had to re-zero my polymer MBUS sights a couple times. It wasn’t a lot, and they backed up a T2 that was extremely unlikely to fail, but the T2 is on a different rifle now, so I’m gonna replace the polymer MBUS with Pros. My advice to new people is to just start with a set of pros. They’re $150, and can be had on sale for ~$130.
Mags? The way I see it is you need more not less. For an AR there’s really no practical upside IMO to Gen M3 over M2. M3 is compatible with more weapon types, but you should worry about getting quality gear and quality trigger time for THIS rifle first. To that end, I say buy a bunch of M2 mags when they go on sale (usually under $10).
You’ll be a better shooter if you learn irons first. Plus it’ll give you time to save up for a quality red dot. Aimpoint PRO, Trijicon MRO, or even a used Aimpoint H1/T1 is a great choice. Don’t need to save up? Cool, get a Comp M5. LPVOs are great too, but a $500 red dot is WAY more durable and reliable than a $500 scope.
You have a good rifle. Develop quality skills, buy quality accessories (buy once cry once), and shoot the piss out of it.
Five_Point_Five_Six
03-01-19, 22:52
I own Aimpoints. I own Primary Arms micros. I'll never try to tell someone that they're nearly identical in quality, but the PA advanced micro dots are a helluva lot of red dot for the money. I have one on my training rifle, as well as both my kids M&P 15-22s, my AK and a Draco. They've all held zero and I've experienced no flickering or shutting down under heat. An Ultimak on an AK gets ridiculously hot and it hasn't killed it yet. I've ran them in all weather conditions including downpours and they don't seem to be effected by the weather.
With that said, the dots are not as crisp, and the glass is not as clear as my Aimpoints...but that's to be expected when comparing a $150 red dot to a $600 red dot. I'll continue using my Aimpoints on my HD and serious use rifles and use the PA optics on everything else.
Let's take any and all person-to-person asides to PM, where they belong, please.
Eurodriver
03-02-19, 08:51
So what is OP thinking?
Moose-Knuckle
03-02-19, 08:58
Lolololololw
So what is OP thinking?Lol, I'm not a military guy. Shooting is strictly a hobby for me. And a hobby I am still fairly new at. So I am sure a holosun optic is more than adequate for what I need. But I also believe that these forums will have me convinced eventually that I need an aimpoint. But maybe I will get a holosun for now and then switch it to a future more budget friendly build? But I am Leaning towards getting some mags and irons first and going from there after some practice.
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If you want a reliable cheap RDS, get the Primary Arms Advanced Micro with illumination dial.
I have Troy flip up battles sights on my home built rifles. Sometimes they are on sale from Primary Arms so ordered a few sets when they are discounted.
Renegade04
03-02-19, 17:54
I have Troy flip up battles sights on my home built rifles. Sometimes they are on sale from Primary Arms so ordered a few sets when they are discounted.
There are on sale right now at AIM Surplus.
https://aimsurplus.com/troy-industries-folding-battle-sight-combo-standard-m4-rear
If I had not just gotten a set of new LMT BUISs on a new build I am working on, I would have bought a set of these right away.
crosseyedshooter
03-02-19, 18:10
There are on sale right now at AIM Surplus.
https://aimsurplus.com/troy-industries-folding-battle-sight-combo-standard-m4-rear
If I had not just gotten a set of new LMT BUISs on a new build I am working on, I would have bought a set of these right away.
$110 shipped is a fantastic price for a set of Troys! I already have two sets and they’re my favorite folding BUIS unless you need a super-low profile rear sight to fit under a scope.
Wow....that's an outstanding price on the Troy set. I've got quite a few of them, and they work really well....and I ordered another set.
I also have the opinion that if a person will only have one RDS, it should at least be an Aimpoint PRO. I've got a couple Vortex Crossfires, but if
I need to grab an AR to defend myself, it'll be one with an Aimpoint on it.
I'm not going to recommend learning irons first before getting an optic, but proficiency with them isn't an option.
The generation of Magpul magazines really doesn't matter to me. I've been buying them for 20 years, and all of them just work. I have lots of 30
round ones, but prefer 20s for range use. I actually just ordered a few Okay Industries Surefeed 20s for less than $12 each.
Get a quality set of irons and shoot that until you have the cash for a quality red dot.
Cheap red dots will fail. Or just randomly shift so you dont know if your shooting is to blame or the optic. (Yes, quality optics can fail also).
Good choice on the BCM upper and lpk.
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Yeah, I went a little on the cheap side with a red dot optic, and it now has been replaced by a Leupold scope. :o
Cool but got two sets when they were on sale at Primary Arms.
Or get a blemished Advanced RDS when Primary Arms runs a sale on them.
No need to replace lower if it works. Get Iron sights and shoot them for a couple months, then buy yourself a cheap RDS to learn what you like. You listed god ones, I would add Sig Romeo to the list of cheap good RDS
PB
bigd081285
08-01-19, 18:08
I would learn irons before u learn red dots. Always should know how to shoot on your irons incase optic fails. And no huge difference between gen 2s and 3s. I use mostly 2s
RobertTheTexan
08-01-19, 19:10
Preach.
I wonder how many dudes have an all set up internet-approved carbine in a safe but don't even carry a quality CCW piece or practice with it.
This is old but man this rings true across the entire gun community. Sometimes hanging out with guys who train a lot and can shoot seems to help me forget 99% of the other guys (or whatever the percentage is) who shoot paper from a bench 2-3 times a year and worse than that who don’t even dry fire on a regular basis. I’ve built AR’s for several guys and aside from taking them out to a range to verify function and zero haven’t seen nor heard of them wanting to go to the range since. I’ve pretty much isolated myself from them because all the “Come and Take It” talk doesn’t bear up with their actions, or more accurately put - lack of action and I get sick of all the talk.
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This discussion seems to have gone a little sideways, but still very interesting. I agree that the percentage of people on this forum who have ever had to use an AR in a combat situation is probably pretty small. And almost all of those individuals presumably used what they were issued by the Army, Marines, etc. For those guys, who are carrying their guns 24/7 in the snow, rain, sand, mud, etc. and whose life depends on their functioning reliability is obviously paramount.
Then there will be a group of people who are recreational shooters, but who go to the range all the time. I probably put 7-8,000 rounds downrange a years I guess I fall into this category. But my rifles are generally either in the safe or being used at the range, primarily from a covered shooting position. They are not really subjected to a lot of abuse. But because I shoot a lot, I can tell the difference between a stock trigger and a Geisselle trigger, or a cheap optic and a high quality one. And I need a gun that can hold up to a bunch of rounds being put through it. Also, my kids are all grown now, so I have some disposable income and can afford a high quality rifle with an Eotech/Aimpoint. But if I couldn't I would have no problem using a Primary Arms micro dot (I actually own one).
Finally, there are those guys who simply want a decent AR for home defense and the occasional trip to the range. If we're being honest, a KAC with a high dollar scope is way more gun than someone like that needs. If you've got a ton of money ... go for it. But I'd rather see that guy buy a mid-tier rifle, a value oriented scope, and a bunch of ammo.
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