What group sizes is acceptable for a precision AR

[ShooterOpinions]

I'm about to start a couple write-ups on match grade AR barrels. I'm looking for a consensus of what group sizes people expect when they purchase a precision AR barrel.

[rockapede]

If I can get a consistent, repeatable 1.5 MOA or better, I’m happy. .5 MOA one-off groups aren’t nearly as impressive to me.

[Eurodriver]

I expect 2/3 MOA out to 500y with a shift toward 1 MOA out to 800y.

This is going to be an interesting thread. I predict some issues you’ll run into are that:

A) Most shooters rarely shoot beyond 100y
B) “Precision” barrels vary wildly. Some will say an off brand 16” SS barrel is “precision”. Is that really on the same level as a hand lapped 20”?
C) Most gun owners suck at shooting so they lie about group sizes.
D) A gun that consistently shoots 0.5 MOA at 100y with a cheap button cut “precision” barrel will not come close to that when increased SDs start making a difference at ranges beyond 300y.

[ALCOAR]

Repeatable 10rd @ 100yd groups printing MOA.

Multiple, repeatable, and preferably 10rd groups are the definitive real world method of evaluating a barrel imho.

[Potss]

With the right load and a good barrel (like a Lothar Walther or Bartlein): .5-.6moa 5x5 at 100y from bipod and rear bag.

[GH41]

"Most gun owners suck at shooting so they lie about group sizes"

Maybe not lie... They just shoot 200 3 shot groups and cherry pick the one that looks the best! For the record I once shot a .25 MOA group one shot group in a hurricane. Do I get a prize??

[titsonritz]

It should be able to knock a tick of the ass of grizzly bear without pissing it off.
https://www.oldewoodltd.com/blog/old-tick-licker

[ShooterOpinions]

Yeah its going to be interesting. The term precision is so subjective and the standards for what shooters consider acceptable vary widely. I'm looking forward to what different people consider acceptable and then test a bunch of barrels I have available and see how things shake out.

[T2C]

1/2 minute out to 300 yards and 1 minute at 600 yards. If an AR & good ammunition won't give me that level of accuracy, it's time to re-barrel the rifle or hang up my high power jacket.

[ShooterOpinions]

With the right load and a good barrel (like a Lothar Walther or Bartlein): .5-.6moa 5x5 at 100y from bipod and rear bag.

I may go as far as working up a load for each barrel rather then random factory ammo. I figure each barrel has its own flavor and factory ammo wont necessarily do a particular barrel justice. All comes down to time I guess.

[Pappabear]

MOA is expected IMHO, even if its not a precision barrel. Most CL 16 or even 14.5 barrels should shoot MOA, its just crazy how good barrels are these days in my experience.

PB

[sasquatchoslav]

MOA is expected IMHO, even if its not a precision barrel. Most CL 16 or even 14.5 barrels should shoot MOA, its just crazy how good barrels are these days in my experience.

PB

I was just about to say the same thing, but I just don't think the average shooter today has the skills to extract all the rifles can deliver myself included. I've seen what I can do with my stuff and then I've seen what my buddy a retired expert rifle/pistol Marine can do with it stuff you'd not believe unless you saw it especially considering the ammo I use.

[HelloLarry]

It depends upon your game.
But you can get a whole lot done with 1 1/2MOA 10 shot groups.

[Tx_Aggie]

I expect 2/3 MOA out to 500y with a shift toward 1 MOA out to 800y.

This is going to be an interesting thread. I predict some issues you’ll run into are that:

A) Most shooters rarely shoot beyond 100y
B) “Precision” barrels vary wildly. Some will say an off brand 16” SS barrel is “precision”. Is that really on the same level as a hand lapped 20”?
C) Most gun owners suck at shooting so they lie about group sizes.
D) A gun that consistently shoots 0.5 MOA at 100y with a cheap button cut “precision” barrel will not come close to that when increased SDs start making a difference at ranges beyond 300y.

^^^ QFT

And gas guns are just harder for a lot of folks to shoot well, compared to a bolt gun. The longer lock time can be pretty unforgiving of poor fundamentals and shooter errors.

[aznginf]

I was just about to say the same thing, but I just don't think the average shooter today has the skills to extract all the rifles can deliver myself included. I've seen what I can do with my stuff and then I've seen what my buddy a retired expert rifle/pistol Marine can do with it stuff you'd not believe unless you saw it especially considering the ammo I use.

Shooting is also a perishable skill. So if you don't keep up on it regularly then it takes a little bit to get back to what your previous skill level was. I had a 2 month break a while back after shooting daily and noticed a slight decline. But then it all comes flooding back.

[bp7178]

For factory ammo with a gas gun, I consider just under or at MOA to be accurate. For hand loads with a gas gun, I'd expect under or at 3/4 MOA.

Modern rifles are very well made for the most part. The limiting factor these days seems to be ammunition and shooter.

[sasquatchoslav]

Shooting is also a perishable skill. So if you don't keep up on it regularly then it takes a little bit to get back to what your previous skill level was. I had a 2 month break a while back after shooting daily and noticed a slight decline. But then it all comes flooding back.

Oh for sure that's true. I spend from April-October doing nothing but thermal hunting hogs and coyotes which is 99% offhand and much of that at runners after the first shot on hogs. Then mid-Oct-Feb it's sitting in trees shooting semi-supported when I don't practice offhand at all. Once spring turkey ends I'll have to go through a couple of warm up hunts getting those offhand skills back in check . Having said that my retired Marine buddy can just flat out shoot better than me in any discipline. I think he could take a year off vs my best shooting frequency in the summer and he'd whip me no problemo!

[Jsp10477]

IMHO, this thread is one of the best on M4C. Jack is a btdt guy and has inside industry knowledge.

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?170763-Let-s-Talk-About-quot-Accuracy-quot


This is a good place to start.... Group size doesn’t mean much with huge poi shifts.

[Lefty223]

56149

Lofty goal and I hope you do it, but if I were doing it ... 2 things.

1 - I’d use a target analyzing software like OnTarget to measure the groups (see above)

2 - I’d record no less than 5 consecutive 10-round groups, or 3 or more from 1 session and add other sessions to prove the variability through multiple setups and conditions

Clearly this only show the ‘potential’ for precision, as you may not select the ‘ideal bullet’ for that barrel being tested (used VLD vs barrel liking a rounder ogive, for example), plus your reloading expertise and/or load development will be called into play ... unless you used say Fed GMM and Black Hills of another weight/config too.

Such a test is getting expen$ive now ... aren’t we?

[fledge]

Group size capability expectation from a “precision” barrel, all other things being equal?

10 shot group. 100 yds. .5 MOA.

[Esq.]

I am personally happy with anything under 1 MOA in a "precision" AR15. My "precision" Ar's though are not benchrest guns, they are SPR type rifles that are shot off bipods, in the field. With a 20LB rifle and glass the size of the Hubble Telescope etc...I'm sure 1/2" is easily doable these days.....I expect "stock" M4 AR15 type rifles to shoot under 3 MOA with decent M193 equivalent loads. Those are my expectations for a modern AR15 type rifle.

[26 Inf]

The X-ring for a 600 yard high-power target is 1moa, using that as a basis I'd want 1moa or less.

[markm]

I rarely shoot .223 gas gun groups well. Something about going back to a 2 stage from the single stage bolt gun trigger makes me sloppy for the first several rounds. I seem to settle in after 3 rounds of a 7-8 round group.

[MegademiC]

Repeatable 10rd @ 100yd groups printing MOA.

Multiple, repeatable, and preferably 10rd groups are the definitive real world method of evaluating a barrel imho.

This. If I was buying a SS, Id want and be happy with anything moa or less (consistent 10-shot groups).

For a CL precision-ish build, 1.5moa or less.

**assuming good match ammo or handloads.

[bp7178]

This 10-shot group thing needs to be addressed. For one, who give AF if 10 shots are 1/2 MOA but no where close to the POA? First round hits are ultimately what you should be chasing, and is the ultimate expression of marksmanship. Period.

Second, 10-shot groups are great as an expression of the mechanical accuracy of the system, but tend to introduce a lot of the shooter into the equation. Fatigue starts to become a factor. I think a lot of this 10-shot stuff came from the various ammo reviews Molon has done over the years. While his content is excellent, if you are shooting off of a bipod and a squeeze bag, you aren't doing the same thing. A mechanical rest and a bunny ear bag with a wind prob etc. and a high mag scope is a different animal.

[DGB]

1/2 MOA out to 300 with match ammo. I've been very disappointed with one tier one SS barrel that would only do 3/4 in absolutely perfect conditions at 100. I have yet to hold a 5.56 to 1 MOA at 1000, but I can do 1 MOA at 600 with a WOA and a Wilson barrel and match ammo. 5 shot groups, not 10. I would personally want a precision AR to shoot very close to 1/2 at 100. With 5.56, there is always wind after 100 and you need all the help you can get.

[gunnerblue]

This 10-shot group thing needs to be addressed. For one, who give AF if 10 shots are 1/2 MOA but no where close to the POA? First round hits are ultimately what you should be chasing, and is the ultimate expression of marksmanship. Period.

Second, 10-shot groups are great as an expression of the mechanical accuracy of the system, but tend to introduce a lot of the shooter into the equation. Fatigue starts to become a factor. I think a lot of this 10-shot stuff came from the various ammo reviews Molon has done over the years. While his content is excellent, if you are shooting off of a bipod and a squeeze bag, you aren't doing the same thing. A mechanical rest and a bunny ear bag with a wind prob etc. and a high mag scope is a different animal.

Ten-shot groups represent the barrels capability as it relates to precision, which is what I assumed the OP is after. As far as shooting accurately under field conditions, I suppose that may be a different matter.

[mark5pt56]

I would say if you have a consistent .75 at 100, with a solid zero, you should be good to go. Sure one will have the select groups to choose from and show, but the consistency is the key. Now you have a baseline and all else is you with fundamentals, and the environment. With some hard work, one can find a good factory load or tune a reload to accomplish this.

I have been happy with the 20" 5R LMT I have, it does what I typed above. Barrels are like people going to Starbucks, sometimes it's simple, other times you wonder how you came up with that recipe(reloaders). And there's always those "go to" loads that normally work. for instance, the 16" CL LMT shoots the Sig 77 match under an inch but the 20" SS 5R will not, nearly double.

I came up with this for the LMT and also know it runs 262 the same as a backup. I couldn't find the pic, but I repeated this 2x to verify. Sometimes, nodes are narrow. I tweaked the zero with this once I established the load, so I was "precise" and "accurate" Either the calipers moved or it's the angle.

Bottom line, once I establish a good load, I'm happy on my worst day if it's 1moa.

http://i.imgur.com/tvnff5i.jpg (https://imgur.com/tvnff5i)

[brutus51]

At my age I shoot MOB (minute of Brutus). If I can see the target and hit it that's MOB. :laugh:

[EzGoingKev]

$300 bolt guns will shoot MOA (or better) with match ammo. I think an AR should be able to do the same.

An AR built for precision should be able to shoot better than MOA.

YMMV

[Ned Christiansen]

OK, just playing a little game with myself here and answering before reading the other responses.

Assuming really good ammo of course-- which usually varies a little, gun to gun. And the group sizes doesn't mean, "did it once but usually twice that size". There has to be some consistency although no shooter, no rifle, no ammo, produces groups of exactly the same size, each group.... although I'll grant you, guns that stay under an inch don't usually just randomly act up and go 3".

1"at 100 yards: doing good.
3/4" to 1": darn good.
1/2" to 3/4": remarkably good!
7/16" to 1/2": do able. But not every time, at least in my experience. I don't think there are many AR's out there that will do this 3/4 of the time but that's just based on my own experience.
3/8" and under-- might happen but in my case I would not dare hope for this outside of "rarely", and honestly, it would be a fluke.

[ShooterOpinions]

Thanks for all of the great info. Knowing what consumers expect out of a precision barrel really helps shape the scope of what I'm putting together. Right now I have a Faxon Match Series (shoots amazing so far), a DRACOS Straight Jacket, and a Noveske to play with. Wont be so much of a "scientific" comparison as it will be practical. More variables but overtime should deliver repeatable trends. Thanks Again.