View Full Version : LEO shot and killed by homeowner.
SilverBullet432
03-05-19, 09:54
Midland Tx- An officer was shot and killed by a homeowner while responding to a burglary alarm last night. Very sad and tragic.
https://www.oaoa.com/news/crime_justice/article_425e5bd8-3f5b-11e9-b72e-0375de7960ed.html
Update:
The officer has been identified as Nathan Heidelberg, and was with the department for 5 years.
https://www.mrt.com/news/article/City-MPD-officer-dies-after-being-shot-13663924.php
Another update; some details of the arrest affidavit released:
https://www.cbs7.com/content/news/Midland-police-officer-dies-overnight-506705051.html
FWIW: here’s some info on the homeowner:
https://www.cbs7.com/content/news/Man-charged-with-killing-Midland-Police-Officer--506737871.html
Prayers out for all affected.
Sad. This is why if you see any and all signs of habitation you have dispatch call inside. You also use all tactical precautions and dont spotlight yourself.
You can always replace property but you cannot replace people.
I cannot blame either side but whenever you show up anywhere with a gun; you are rolling the dice.
SilverBullet432
03-05-19, 10:03
I’ll update the link as more info becomes available.
That is tragic. And there were three other more senior officers with him. So it sounds like he did nothing wrong but the more senior guys should have known better that to pound on the door on that type of call.
We are surrounded by technology yet good people still get killed by poor communication. Hope his family gets good support.
The man's alarm has gone off and the police respond.. They bang on the door shouting police, open the door. Not sufficient ID under the circumstances IMO. Homeowner cracks the door and is blinded by the flashlight. At that point he can't ID anyone and in fear takes the shot. In that scenario (alarm tripped) how do you know whos who? The cops wouldn't know if the guy coming to the door was bad guy or good. Based on the info above tell me what should have been done differently. I keep going back to the alarm. Homeowner shouldn't have opened the door without identifying the cops and the cops shouldn't have been on the front porch.
The man's alarm has gone off and the police respond.. They bang on the door shouting police, open the door. Not sufficient ID under the circumstances IMO. Homeowner cracks the door and is blinded by the flashlight. At that point he can't ID anyone and in fear takes the shot. In that scenario (alarm tripped) how do you know whos who? The cops wouldn't know if the guy coming to the door was bad guy or good. Based on the info above tell me what should have been done differently. I keep going back to the alarm. Homeowner shouldn't have opened the door without identifying the cops and the cops shouldn't have been on the front porch.
Did the homeowner open the door? I did not see that. Was it in a different article?
Sad. This is why if you see any and all signs of habitation you have dispatch call inside. You also use all tactical precautions and dont spotlight yourself.
I go to a lot of home alarms where I work, darn rich people. The last place we go is the front door and pound on it. Park a house or two away, walk up while observing the property. Look around, check ground level windows, call inside if you can. Knocking is the last thing on the list and then you don't pound of the fvcking door. Knock like you're a neighbor.
Dude got shot in front of his trainee and two others after making a tactical mistake. Sucks all around, I'd be surprised if they charged the homeowner.
Did the homeowner open the door? I did not see that. Was it in a different article?
Maybe I am wrong but the article said the homeowner fired at the flashlight. I assumed to see the flashlight he had to open the door. If he shot at the flashlight through a window he has a problem. Either way I cannot understand why the police are beating on the door while responding to that type of call.
Maybe I am wrong but the article said the homeowner fired at the flashlight. I assumed to see the flashlight he had to open the door. If he shot at the flashlight through a window he has a problem. Either way I cannot understand why the police are beating on the door while responding to that type of call.
Or the door was open and the cops came in. That is what I gathered from the articles I have seen. The fact that the Rangers are now involved makes me suspect there was a big mistake on the part of the police.
#4 Be sure of your target and what is behind it.
This was very, very avoidable. This is no different than when cops hit the wrong house and shoot innocent homeowners. You had better be sure, especially if you are shooting at things outside your house. You can't just shoot at flashlights, that could have been a neighbor coming by the check on a "sketchy looking individual" that was in their yard a few moments ago, it could have been a guy looking for his dog, could have been just about anything.
#4 Be sure of your target and what is behind it.
This was very, very avoidable. This is no different than when cops hit the wrong house and shoot innocent homeowners. You had better be sure, especially if you are shooting at things outside your house. You can't just shoot at flashlights, that could have been a neighbor coming by the check on a "sketchy looking individual" that was in their yard a few moments ago, it could have been a guy looking for his dog, could have been just about anything.
Again, who said that the cop was outside?
Again, who said that the cop was outside?
Per your last post, I think FTO-poo was trying to show junior popo the “real way” and it got way too real.
Seen it before.
I have responded to alarm calls and got met with a homeowner with a gun but was never at any point down range of them.
Vandal has the right idea but there’s too much you can do to be safe.
Give a siren yelp.
Flash some blue lights
Get dispatch to get security system to do a call
Wait for back up
Stay clear of murderholes and gunports AKA doors and windows
If someone runs out toting a TV, game on.
If someone mopes out in ho chi minh slippers and a Def Leppard t shirt with their revolver, tragedy is averted.
You can always do a report. Home invasion is a different scenario. Because they will run, announce hostages, or start fighting regardless.
This is a thinking man’s game, y’all
#4 Be sure of your target and what is behind it.
This was very, very avoidable. This is no different than when cops hit the wrong house and shoot innocent homeowners. You had better be sure, especially if you are shooting at things outside your house. You can't just shoot at flashlights, that could have been a neighbor coming by the check on a "sketchy looking individual" that was in their yard a few moments ago, it could have been a guy looking for his dog, could have been just about anything.
You guys have short memories or don't read. The police were responding to an alarm going off. Lost dogs don't set off alarms. For no knock warrants... The cops should expect to be shot. No knock warrants are a sore spot for me. If you kick down my door expect to be killed.
El Vaquero
03-05-19, 19:11
Or the door was open and the cops came in. That is what I gathered from the articles I have seen. The fact that the Rangers are now involved makes me suspect there was a big mistake on the part of the police.
My interpretation on the Rangers involvement is not because of a possible mistake but so there is an impartial investigation. So there are no accusations the officers agency is charging the homeowner out of spite or retribution.
From the article in the first post there are a hundred different ways it could’ve gone bad.
My interpretation on the Rangers involvement is not because of a possible mistake but so there is an impartial investigation. So there are no accusations the officers agency is charging the homeowner out of spite or retribution.
From the article in the first post there are a hundred different ways it could’ve gone bad.
That could be true but from what my friend, who is a Ranger tells me that would usually fall to the Sheriff Office as the Rangers usually only get involved for state level stuff or really bad situations.
But that could be the case. We will just have to wait and see.
glockshooter
03-05-19, 21:26
Officer involved shootings are very often investigated by outside agencies. That in and of itself means nothing.
I do find it interesting that the same people that would complain about and assume officer Misconduct or abuse when they shoot someone in similar cases to this one are now defending the actions of this homeowner. Seems like you have to pick a side on this type of incident regardless who fired the shot. What would you have to say if the same officer shot the homeowner because he was walking around the house with a flashlight and a gun? The homeowners alarm went off, so he very likely knew it went off. What is a reasonable expection to happen when your alarm goes off. Police showing up seems reasonable to me, especially when you pay for that service expecting the police will be called and respond.
Officers going to the front door may or may not be unusual depending on a departments policy for alarm response. My department wants you to park away from the house, call in any tags of vehicles at the house, check the vehicles, check the perimeter, check the doors and windows, if a door is found to be unsecured clear the house. This is pretty much what every department remotely close to here does.
I don’t know exactly what happen or why. I’m not going to make assumptions either way, maybe some of you consider curbing some of that anti-police bias. I get that some people don’t like he police, and I get some people have a good and justified reason they don’t like the police. However, a vast, vast, vast majority of cops are good people doing the job the right way for the right reasons. This is similar to an active shooter event, all gun owners get blamed for someone else’s actions. All of us here complain and bitch about it, but yet some will turn around and do the same thing to cops.
SilverBullet432
03-05-19, 21:48
Hey folks, all of the local news stations have conflicting stories. As far as I known; Yes, the Texas Rangers are investigating. The homeowner was arrested on man slaughter charges, but has already posted bail.. I’ll find the best link..
Officer involved shootings are very often investigated by outside agencies. That in and of itself means nothing.
I do find it interesting that the same people that would complain about and assume officer Misconduct or abuse when they shoot someone in similar cases to this one are now defending the actions of this homeowner. Seems like you have to pick a side on this type of incident regardless who fired the shot. What would you have to say if the same officer shot the homeowner because he was walking around the house with a flashlight and a gun? The homeowners alarm went off, so he very likely knew it went off. What is a reasonable expection to happen when your alarm goes off. Police showing up seems reasonable to me, especially when you pay for that service expecting the police will be called and respond.
Officers going to the front door may or may not be unusual depending on a departments policy for alarm response. My department wants you to park away from the house, call in any tags of vehicles at the house, check the vehicles, check the perimeter, check the doors and windows, if a door is found to be unsecured clear the house. This is pretty much what every department remotely close to here does.
I don’t know exactly what happen or why. I’m not going to make assumptions either way, maybe some of you consider curbing some of that anti-police bias. I get that some people don’t like he police, and I get some people have a good and justified reason they don’t like the police. However, a vast, vast, vast majority of cops are good people doing the job the right way for the right reasons. This is similar to an active shooter event, all gun owners get blamed for someone else’s actions. All of us here complain and bitch about it, but yet some will turn around and do the same thing to cops.
Do you have any experience with or knowledge of the Texas Rangers and what part they play in Law Enforcement? The simple fact that they are immediately taking over the situation is a little off. It would be liek you having a bad shoot and the FBI coming in and taking over the investigation... Does that happen often?
There is no point of anti cop stuff here........ It is more anti BS. If you are walking around your house and a cop shoots you they need to be charged with murder. That was the stupidest this I have ever heard.
As for this people are concerned..... the cops are going to try and fry this guy NO MATTER WHO WAS WRONG The fact that there were three of them there means that two of them are getting their story straight.... and if you think that is anti LEO you are mistaken.... it is what we call survival instinct. Everyone does it. It just so happens that the Supreme Court has upheld that Cops are allowed to be ignorant.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heien_v._North_Carolina
These guys have one of two ways out if in fact there was and mistake on the side of law enforcement.. fry the homeowner as some crazy or throw the dead guy under the bus. What route do you think that they will take? That is a serious question.... If they throw the dead guy under the buss his name will be tarnished and the family could loose their benefits.. and what would the other officers on the force think of them?
This is basic human behavior. It is also why people are concerned about the Home owner.
As a police officer what is the best possible outcome for the homeowner, even if he is found to have done nothing wrong? Really?
SilverBullet432
03-05-19, 21:54
Arrest affidavit update: Good video in the link.
Also on the OP.
https://www.cbs7.com/content/news/Midland-police-officer-dies-overnight-506705051.html
When I read of these tragedies, I try to find the address on Google Maps and look at an aerial view, and a street view. The area has four larger houses with big lots on a cul-de-sac. The alarm went off in a house at the end of the cul-de-sac and has a long driveway which doesn't provide a clear view of the street. These seem to be expensive homes with pools. If the PD cars were on the street, the homeowner may have had an obstructed view of the vehicles and not realized PD had arrived.
Also, what was the age of the homeowner? An elderly person at a time shortly after 2am may not be clear-headed or confused by what was going on. It seems the front door was ajar when the PD officers approached. Was the house actually broken into, or the homeowner opened the door in response to the alarm before PD arrived to investigate?
We don't have enough info at this point to make an intelligent analysis. The manslaughter charge could be something that ends up being dropped if it turns out to be a confused and scared old man shooting at what he thought was a threat.
Again, who said that the cop was outside?
The police came inside unannounced? That would change "some" things.
The police came inside unannounced? That would change "some" things.
The article states they did announce, but unclear if they entered at that point or not. But they must have opened the door enough for the flashlight to shine in and the homeowner to shoot out.
As OH58D suggests, an older guy woken up at 2am may not be fully alert and may be hard of hearing.
Often in stories like this it turns out the responding officers are given very cryptic information from dispatch. Maybe the assumed the homeowner called it in or was in communication with dispatch. At any rate, confirming comms with the homeowner and verifying they know police are in the scene would avoid such tragedies. That is kind of the point if registered alarms is that the police have contact info, no?
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-06-19, 06:36
Was the alarm still running, making noise?
Is five years enough time to be an instructor? Granted, we turn out docs faster than that which will be 'teaching'. It just seemed that was pretty short time, but I guess this isn't a hot bed of mayhem?
SilverBullet432
03-06-19, 08:02
When I read of these tragedies, I try to find the address on Google Maps and look at an aerial view, and a street view. The area has four larger houses with big lots on a cul-de-sac. The alarm went off in a house at the end of the cul-de-sac and has a long driveway which doesn't provide a clear view of the street. These seem to be expensive homes with pools. If the PD cars were on the street, the homeowner may have had an obstructed view of the vehicles and not realized PD had arrived.
Also, what was the age of the homeowner? An elderly person at a time shortly after 2am may not be clear-headed or confused by what was going on. It seems the front door was ajar when the PD officers approached. Was the house actually broken into, or the homeowner opened the door in response to the alarm before PD arrived to investigate?
We don't have enough info at this point to make an intelligent analysis. The manslaughter charge could be something that ends up being dropped if it turns out to be a confused and scared old man shooting at what he thought was a threat.
He is a local oil & gas CEO. 37 years old.
https://www.cbs7.com/content/news/Man-charged-with-killing-Midland-Police-Officer--506737871.html
He is a local oil & gas CEO. 37 years old.
Ok, based on the house it looked like someone with money. And some of that Permian Basin wealth being generated in the Midland-Odessa area.
So, we can remove age as a factor. What about fear and confusion? The homeowner was charged with Manslaughter. Does his actions rise to that level? There is also Involuntary Manslaughter, which in New Mexico would be negligence without intent or premeditation to commit a crime. As a life long gun owner, and someone who was around all kinds of weapons in the Army, I understand personal responsibility regarding the use of a firearm, but the average person, in their own home, may not have received any formal training. Combine that with fear and confusion and they'll be shooting at any noise they hear or flash of light. Did the homeowner fear for his life when he fired? Would we be discussing this now if the homeowner had shot an actual intruder (burglar) at the front door with a flashlight?
Unless we have more information about the state of mind of the homeowner, to me it seems like Manslaughter could be a way to stack the charge higher for a lower plea in the future.
Officer involved shootings are very often investigated by outside agencies. That in and of itself means nothing.
I do find it interesting that the same people that would complain about and assume officer Misconduct or abuse when they shoot someone in similar cases to this one are now defending the actions of this homeowner. Seems like you have to pick a side on this type of incident regardless who fired the shot. What would you have to say if the same officer shot the homeowner because he was walking around the house with a flashlight and a gun? The homeowners alarm went off, so he very likely knew it went off. What is a reasonable expection to happen when your alarm goes off. Police showing up seems reasonable to me, especially when you pay for that service expecting the police will be called and respond.
Officers going to the front door may or may not be unusual depending on a departments policy for alarm response. My department wants you to park away from the house, call in any tags of vehicles at the house, check the vehicles, check the perimeter, check the doors and windows, if a door is found to be unsecured clear the house. This is pretty much what every department remotely close to here does.
I don’t know exactly what happen or why. I’m not going to make assumptions either way, maybe some of you consider curbing some of that anti-police bias. I get that some people don’t like he police, and I get some people have a good and justified reason they don’t like the police. However, a vast, vast, vast majority of cops are good people doing the job the right way for the right reasons. This is similar to an active shooter event, all gun owners get blamed for someone else’s actions. All of us here complain and bitch about it, but yet some will turn around and do the same thing to cops.
Looks like the homeowner got charged the same day.
If shooter versus shot got flipped, would that be the case?
8 hours away in Houston, will Goines or any of his crew get charged this quarter?
I doubt he is going to get true billed. The officer effed up and paid for it, I would wager the Rangers being involved is as a direct result of them charging old buddy.
Sucks that he got shot but had he used some tactics; nobody would have gotten shot.
The department is trying to save face and whomever the chief is; he is making a bad situation worse
He is a local oil & gas CEO. 37 years old.
https://www.cbs7.com/content/news/Man-charged-with-killing-Midland-Police-Officer--506737871.html
A 37 year old CEO in his house with his family and his burglar alarm going off meets someone inside pointing a flashlight in his face. I know how I would react.
I doubt he is going to get true billed. The officer effed up and paid for it, I would wager the Rangers being involved is as a direct result of them charging old buddy.
Sucks that he got shot but had he used some tactics; nobody would have gotten shot.
The department is trying to save face and whomever the chief is; he is making a bad situation worse
This sums up the entire situation.
Seems like a FUBAR situation. The LEO sit around outside till contact is made it more officers arrive only to find the family raped, tortured and brutally killed. They are seen as the assholes with guns, equipment and training sitting around with their thumbs up their asses again. Enter and you get shot by frightened homeowner or shoot a frightened homeowner. Lose lose situation
Don’t have an alarm system, but having heard some, it’s difficult to imagine how anyone could communicate verbally with one blaring in the background.
I’m also not sure that as a homeowner, I’d be wandering the home if the alarm went off. Retreat to the panic area and account for family. Call 911 and make sure they know where I’m at and that I’m armed. If you get lots of false alarms get a different alarm system/company.
Reason 1254258775436 why LEO stress is high and the job essentially sucks and why they deserve far more respect than they get.
Seems like a FUBAR situation. The LEO sit around outside till contact is made it more officers arrive only to find the family raped, tortured and brutally killed. They are seen as the assholes with guns, equipment and training sitting around with their thumbs up their asses again. Enter and you get shot by frightened homeowner or shoot a frightened homeowner. Lose lose situation
Don’t have an alarm system, but having heard some, it’s difficult to imagine how anyone could communicate verbally with one blaring in the background.
I’m also not sure that as a homeowner, I’d be wandering the home if the alarm went off. Retreat to the panic area and account for family. Call 911 and make sure they know where I’m at and that I’m armed. If you get lots of false alarms get a different alarm system/company.
Reason 1254258775436 why LEO stress is high and the job essentially sucks and why they deserve far more respect than they get.
Sitting around outside sounds like Parkland.
On the shooting the homeowner, are you talking about the fake 911 call where the homeowner got shot because his hands were near his waist or the real incident where the grandfather shot the attacker and was checking the rest of the house while armed?
Which officers got charged with manslaughter over any of those?
Sitting around outside sounds like Parkland.
On the shooting the homeowner, are you talking about the fake 911 call where the homeowner got shot because his hands were near his waist or the real incident where the grandfather shot the attacker and was checking the rest of the house while armed?
Which officers got charged with manslaughter over any of those?.......... I will wait for that answer........
Or the one where the man was shot through a window in his own home?
Seems like a FUBAR situation. The LEO sit around outside till contact is made it more officers arrive only to find the family raped, tortured and brutally killed. They are seen as the assholes with guns, equipment and training sitting around with their thumbs up their asses again. Enter and you get shot by frightened homeowner or shoot a frightened homeowner. Lose lose situation
Don’t have an alarm system, but having heard some, it’s difficult to imagine how anyone could communicate verbally with one blaring in the background.
I’m also not sure that as a homeowner, I’d be wandering the home if the alarm went off. Retreat to the panic area and account for family. Call 911 and make sure they know where I’m at and that I’m armed. If you get lots of false alarms get a different alarm system/company.
Reason 1254258775436 why LEO stress is high and the job essentially sucks and why they deserve far more respect than they get.
Having responded to many alarms it goes like this:
Check the outside of the building for forced entry. Have dispatch tell the alarm company to call the keyholder/homeowner while waiting outside. If contact is made have the resident come outside and meet me away from the house. If no contact is made but the building is unsecured approach the door, with covering officers and before entering announce yourself several times, loudly, and ask if anyone is home. Continue to do so. Now, entering and clearing a residence instead of just leaving and locking the door behind you will take some very good judgement and circumstances. As a general rule houses at night and businesses during the day are normally occupied and visa versa. No one said it is an easy job which is why the bar should be set high.
So many false alarms, if homeowner cannot be reached, there is no sign of entry, there is thus no evidence, probable cause or even reasonable suspicion of a crime, it is a NOP; just leave.
Waiting outside to establish contact is NOT like Parkland. No active shooter at a occupied school with kids and teachers dying while you wait around in this case, just an alarm at a residence in the middle of the night. It is not lose-lose situation, there is a way everyone can come out alive.
So many false alarms, if homeowner cannot be reached, there is no sign of entry, there is thus no evidence, probable cause or even reasonable suspicion of a crime, it is a NOP; just leave.
Exactly. I worked third shift at the PD for years and answering alarms were the norm. Granted, you have to treat every alarm as real until you prove otherwise but I'd say that 95%+ are false alarms.
sundance435
03-06-19, 15:20
Having responded to many alarms it goes like this:
Check the outside of the building for forced entry. Have dispatch tell the alarm company to call the keyholder/homeowner while waiting outside. If contact is made have the resident come outside and meet me away from the house. If no contact is made but the building is unsecured approach the door, with covering officers and before entering announce yourself several times, loudly, and ask if anyone is home. Continue to do so. Now, entering and clearing a residence instead of just leaving and locking the door behind you will take some very good judgement and circumstances. As a general rule houses at night and businesses during the day are normally occupied and visa versa. No one said it is an easy job which is why the bar should be set high.
I would wager that's SOP for most and sums up most that I've seen. I don't recall a time we ever went into a house if there was no sign of forced entry and contact HADN'T been made with the owner. Only time we would've and the homeowner wasn't present is if they asked us to - even then, you wouldn't treat it like rolling up on a house party.
So many false alarms, if homeowner cannot be reached, there is no sign of entry, there is thus no evidence, probable cause or even reasonable suspicion of a crime, it is a NOP; just leave.
That's how most of them went if the owner couldn't be reached, especially for repeat alarms, absent other extenuating circumstances.
Was the alarm still running, making noise?
Is five years enough time to be an instructor? Granted, we turn out docs faster than that which will be 'teaching'. It just seemed that was pretty short time, but I guess this isn't a hot bed of mayhem?
Five years on and an FTO isn't unusual, you have to remember the trainee has already attended the Academy and received basic training. Not much difference between that and the junior Drill that put you through basic training.
A 37 year old CEO in his house with his family and his burglar alarm going off meets someone inside pointing a flashlight in his face. I know how I would react.
Yeah, because burglars always stick around, waving their flashlights in the homeowner's face after the alarm goes off.
Yeah, because burglars always stick around, waving their flashlights in the homeowner's face after the alarm goes off.
Burglars no, home invaders yes. ;)
I saw a video on YouTube about a guy in Midland whom claims that his house was being watched by the local authorities. He also claimed that there were tunnels under his house and people constantly jumping over his backyard fence. I couldn’t figure out if the video was legit or not. Some people in the comments section stated strange occurrences between the Texas DPS and the Midland police department. Unsure if this incident might be connected.
glockshooter
03-07-19, 13:50
https://www.officer.com/investigations/news/21071185/former-florida-police-officer-found-guilty-of-manslaughter-in-fatal-shooting-of-motorist?utm_source=Officer.com+Newsday+E-Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=CPS190307013&o_eid=4114C7612190C8Y&rdx.ident%5Bpull%5D=omeda%7C4114C7612190C8Y&ajs_uid=4114C7612190C8Y&oly_enc_id=4114C7612190C8Y&ajs_trait_oebid=5902A2468689B2E
LowSpeed_HighDrag
03-07-19, 15:43
https://www.officer.com/investigations/news/21071185/former-florida-police-officer-found-guilty-of-manslaughter-in-fatal-shooting-of-motorist?utm_source=Officer.com+Newsday+E-Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=CPS190307013&o_eid=4114C7612190C8Y&rdx.ident%5Bpull%5D=omeda%7C4114C7612190C8Y&ajs_uid=4114C7612190C8Y&oly_enc_id=4114C7612190C8Y&ajs_trait_oebid=5902A2468689B2E
That's quite the drive-by posting. And?
https://www.officer.com/investigations/news/21071185/former-florida-police-officer-found-guilty-of-manslaughter-in-fatal-shooting-of-motorist?utm_source=Officer.com+Newsday+E-Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=CPS190307013&o_eid=4114C7612190C8Y&rdx.ident%5Bpull%5D=omeda%7C4114C7612190C8Y&ajs_uid=4114C7612190C8Y&oly_enc_id=4114C7612190C8Y&ajs_trait_oebid=5902A2468689B2E
That story was just retarted. Show me where a single cop was charged when executing a No Knock..... and it was unfounded....... I will wait.
That story was just retarted. Show me where a single cop was charged when executing a No Knock..... and it was unfounded....... I will wait.
How about also holding your breath as you wait?
If a judge has issued a no-knock warrant, and there is no doubt that they do issue too many of those critters, then the officer should be okay from criminal charges so long as they don't grossly deviate from generally accepted protocol.
Things like going to the wrong address based on faulty information would not expose officers acting in good faith when serving the warrant to criminal liability.
The big onus in those situations is the civil liability that the agency bites off.
Years ago, I thought the pendulum was swinging toward holding officers accountable for poor tactical decision making, it appears it hasn't.
How about also holding your breath as you wait?
If a judge has issued a no-knock warrant, and there is no doubt that they do issue too many of those critters, then the officer should be okay from criminal charges so long as they don't grossly deviate from generally accepted protocol.
Things like going to the wrong address based on faulty information would not expose officers acting in good faith when serving the warrant to criminal liability.
The big onus in those situations is the civil liability that the agency bites off.
Years ago, I thought the pendulum was swinging toward holding officers accountable for poor tactical decision making, it appears it hasn't.
I have been and it makes my Constitution hurt. ;)
I use that example because there way to many people in jail that have shot LEO on them and it turned out it they were just a normal person with a gun. They do time and yet the cops walk.
It is all a hypothetical what if until YOUR door get kicked in in the middle of the night......... what would you do?
How about also holding your breath as you wait?
If a judge has issued a no-knock warrant, and there is no doubt that they do issue too many of those critters, then the officer should be okay from criminal charges so long as they don't grossly deviate from generally accepted protocol.
Things like going to the wrong address based on faulty information would not expose officers acting in good faith when serving the warrant to criminal liability.
The big onus in those situations is the civil liability that the agency bites off.
Years ago, I thought the pendulum was swinging toward holding officers accountable for poor tactical decision making, it appears it hasn't.
If an agency was biting off the civil liability there wouldn't be as much biting. Hacking off a chunk and throwing it on the public to cover is a large part of the problem.
I have been and it makes my Constitution hurt. ;)
I see what you did there :)
It is all a hypothetical what if until YOUR door get kicked in in the middle of the night......... what would you do?
Let the flow come to me, not me go to them. Try not to get shot and try not to have to shoot someone. Things always work out in our minds, sometimes reality is different.
If an agency was biting off the civil liability there wouldn't be as much biting.
Hacking off a chunk and throwing it on the public to cover is a large part of the problem.
This is a large part of the problem everywhere from business to government - too many folks play with OPM (other people's money).
SilverBullet432
03-08-19, 14:12
Livestream of the officer’s burial:
https://www.cbs7.com/livestream2
https://www.odmp.org/officer/23985-police-officer-nathan-hayden-heidelberg
https://www.odmp.org/officer/23985-police-officer-nathan-hayden-heidelberg
Interesting that the homeowner/shooter will be listed as an "offender" on that site even if the charge fails to convict.
SilverBullet432
03-08-19, 19:55
Interesting that the homeowner/shooter will be listed as an "offender" on that site even if the charge fails to convict.
I didn’t want to say it, but, there may be a slight bias on there.
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