A visual example of why M4C recommends quality AR parts [Archive]

Eurodriver

03-06-19, 07:41

The rust has nothing to do with it being a cheap spring.

Care to expand on that? Could you, I dunno, tell us what it does have to do with then? While you’re answering those questions maybe you can also answer this as well:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/12/bb/74/12bb747ebc3c94d638257f18ab25d307.jpg

Yesterday when I got off work I decided to spend an evening doing maintenance on my firearms. I found something interesting, wanted to share it with M4C, took a picture, uploaded it, and made a post here showing two springs that have had equal amounts of time (almost a decade each) in similar real world conditions. I didn’t go scuba diving with one rifle and not the other. One rifle wasn’t abused while the other lived a safe queen life. Both lived side by side in the same safe and Saw the same rifle ranges and went to the same shooting competitions and rode in the same Mercedes. Both lowers were put together between 8-10 years ago. Both have had the same user and the same cleaning regimen.

One is rusted and one is not.

I didn’t perform a metallurgical analysis on both springs. I didn’t insinuate anything. I didn’t post anything controversial or anything that needed evidence. I didn’t claim anything other than “Spring A was from a known maker and isn’t rusted, Spring B was in a cheap LPK and is rusted. Both lived the same life.” which is exactly what happened.

And then you post something with nothing to back it up.

While I won’t for a second claim to bring anything close to the amount of information to M4C that Doc and Molon brought, I can see why they left.

GH41 - The Information Killer

bamashooter

03-06-19, 07:42

How timely. Quality counts. :D https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/Gas-Leak-or-Rust-/118-737819/

Firefly

03-06-19, 09:09

Euro packs enough living into one day than 99% of the people fretting over roll marks and whether or not a C is on their upper do in a lifetime

Trust me.

But then again this is the same place where I am repeatedly told an SR25 won't work in the mud after I used one to shoot hogs at night after falling in a bog.

Doc Safari

03-06-19, 09:28

But then again this is the same place where I am repeatedly told an SR25 won't work in the mud after I used one to shoot hogs at night after falling in a bog.

BogLube. :jester:

Hammer_Man

03-06-19, 11:02

This only reaffirms my desire to use only Colt, LMT, or KAC parts in my rifles.

Doc Safari

03-06-19, 11:07

This only reaffirms my desire to use only Colt, LMT, or KAC parts in my rifles.

I've seen rusted Colt springs, too.

Esq.

03-06-19, 12:20

I've seen rusted Colt springs, too.

Unpossible. The Pony Pee they are dipped in at the factory transforms them from common metal into the equivalent of Kryptonite to forces attempting to damage them. They are INDESTRUCTIBLE!!!!!

26 Inf

03-06-19, 12:25

The way to tell for sure is to get new springs from each vendor and expose them to a water bath and document the results over time. Most of you probably recall that someone did this with pieces of metal and different lubes.

This would eliminate the variables such as grip to frame fit, and minute differences in exposure to moisture between weapons that the user does not realize.

498cm3

03-06-19, 12:28

Unpossible. The Pony Pee they are dipped in at the factory transforms them from common metal into the equivalent of Kryptonite to forces attempting to damage them. They are INDESTRUCTIBLE!!!!!^ good one lol

Sent from my XT1031 using Tapatalk

Doc Safari

03-06-19, 12:32

I should have said "I've seen rusted Colt PARTS, too," because I've just realized I've seen more than rusted springs.

Two 6720's I bought within six months of each other have rust spots on the mag catch.

One Colt Match Target from the 1990's had a delta ring spring that was obviously rusted so badly it pitted, and Colt refinished it and installed it on a rifle anyway.

I bought a Colt AR15A2 second hand in the 1990's that was NIB yet had rust on the hammer spring. I'd chalk it up to poor storage, but why weren't any of the other FCG springs rusted then?

docsherm

03-06-19, 12:33

My question is what lead to this need to clean them? Easy fix, get good part and don't clean. Problem solved......... ;)

GH41

03-06-19, 12:43

Care to expand on that? Could you, I dunno, tell us what it does have to do with then? While you’re answering those questions maybe you can also answer this as well:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/12/bb/74/12bb747ebc3c94d638257f18ab25d307.jpg

Yesterday when I got off work I decided to spend an evening doing maintenance on my firearms. I found something interesting, wanted to share it with M4C, took a picture, uploaded it, and made a post here showing two springs that have had equal amounts of time (almost a decade each) in similar real world conditions. I didn’t go scuba diving with one rifle and not the other. One rifle wasn’t abused while the other lived a safe queen life. Both lived side by side in the same safe and Saw the same rifle ranges and went to the same shooting competitions and rode in the same Mercedes. Both lowers were put together between 8-10 years ago. Both have had the same user and the same cleaning regimen.

One is rusted and one is not.

I didn’t perform a metallurgical analysis on both springs. I didn’t insinuate anything. I didn’t post anything controversial or anything that needed evidence. I didn’t claim anything other than “Spring A was from a known maker and isn’t rusted, Spring B was in a cheap LPK and is rusted. Both lived the same life.” which is exactly what happened.

And then you post something with nothing to back it up.

While I won’t for a second claim to bring anything close to the amount of information to M4C that Doc and Molon brought, I can see why they left.

GH41 - The Information Killer

Maybe the rusted spring was installed dry and the other spring got a drop of lube. The rusted one looks like it was submerged for a while. Just because both rifles were rained on doesn't mean water got in all of the same places. I stand by my statement... The rust has nothing to do with it being a cheap spring. Water did. And probably on more than one occasion.

Hammer_Man

03-06-19, 15:02

I've seen rusted Colt springs, too.

I've disassembled Colt A2s that had mud caked in the lower receiver for who knows how long. Want to know how many rusted springs I found? ZERO.

Doc Safari

03-06-19, 15:36

I've disassembled Colt A2s that had mud caked in the lower receiver for who knows how long. Want to know how many rusted springs I found? ZERO.

Don't know what to tell you. If you're implying that it's impossible for a Colt spring to be rusted I can 100% testify that at least one of the two I saw had to have been installed that way by Colt.

I could maybe concede that since I bought the AR15A2 second-hand that I can't prove the former owner didn't substitute a different hammer spring even though the gun was quoted as and looked NIB. That's an extreme possibility as far as I'm concerned. I don't think the rust was factory oil, either because it was the wrong color.

The hammer spring had very light rust that cleaned right off with oil and a little steel wool. I guess it's possible the rust had leaked onto it from another component, or was corroded firing residue, or whatever, but that's unlikely since the hammer spring and only the hammer spring showed any corrosion of any of the FCG components. It was a solid rust red color compared to the bright shiny and oily FCG parts around it.

As for the delta ring spring on the other rifle, that was obviously, and I mean OBVIOUSLY, pitted and refinished over the pitting. I wanted to send it back to Colt but it was right around the time of the 1994 AWB so I was somewhat concerned I might not be allowed to pick it up after returning from repair. (The final version of the AWB hadn't been ironed out yet in Congress).

I had ordered that rifle through the dealer who had to order it from the distributor. There is no way that rusted/refinished delta ring spring wasn't installed that way by Colt.

I cite as evidence that Colt does stuff like that is the two 6720's I bought over a six-month period.

Both had mag catches with light rust. I ordered both through Impact Guns and picked them up from different dealers. Granted, the rust on the mag catches was very light and cleaned right up with oil and steel wool, but that's beside the point. Those parts had to have been rusted in Colt's parts bin and Colt installed them on rifles anyway. You can't tell me that two rifles with very far apart serial numbers and ordered months apart would just happen to have had the same part on both rust in storage at the distributor.

I personally think both the rusted springs on those previous rifles were knowingly installed that way by Colt. Maybe that gets back to "just what does Colt outsource and can we be certain of quality."

Hammer_Man

03-06-19, 15:54

Don't know what to tell you. If you're implying that it's impossible for a Colt spring to be rusted I can 100% testify that at least one of the two I saw had to have been installed that way by Colt.

I could maybe concede that since I bought the AR15A2 second-hand that I can't prove the former owner didn't substitute a different hammer spring even though the gun was quoted as and looked NIB. That's an extreme possibility as far as I'm concerned. I don't think the rust was factory oil, either because it was the wrong color.

The hammer spring had very light rust that cleaned right off with oil and a little steel wool. I guess it's possible the rust had leaked onto it from another component, or was corroded firing residue, or whatever, but that's unlikely since the hammer spring and only the hammer spring showed any corrosion of any of the FCG components. It was a solid rust red color compared to the bright shiny and oily FCG parts around it.

As for the delta ring spring on the other rifle, that was obviously, and I mean OBVIOUSLY, pitted and refinished over the pitting. I wanted to send it back to Colt but it was right around the time of the 1994 AWB so I was somewhat concerned I might not be allowed to pick it up after returning from repair. (The final version of the AWB hadn't been ironed out yet in Congress).

I had ordered that rifle through the dealer who had to order it from the distributor. There is no way that rusted/refinished delta ring spring wasn't installed that way by Colt.

I cite as evidence that Colt does stuff like that is the two 6720's I bought over a six-month period.

Both had mag catches with light rust. I ordered both through Impact Guns and picked them up from different dealers. Granted, the rust on the mag catches was very light and cleaned right up with oil and steel wool, but that's beside the point. Those parts had to have been rusted in Colt's parts bin and Colt installed them on rifles anyway. You can't tell me that two rifles with very far apart serial numbers and ordered months apart would just happen to have had the same part on both rust in storage at the distributor.

I personally think both the rusted springs on those previous rifles were knowingly installed that way by Colt. Maybe that gets back to "just what does Colt outsource and can we be certain of quality."

I can see where you're coming from, and I by no means intend to start a flame war with you. It seems we've had different experiences with the same stuff. I've used a lot of Colt rifles that have not had the greatest care, and at the end of the day they all seem to snap together and hold a zero like they're supposed to. During the panic buying I bought DPMS, Spike's, and Anderson lower parts because that was all I could find. ln some way they all seemed to leave me slightly dissatisfied, as they all seemed to not fit or function quite as nicely as the Colt parts I usually use. For example the safety selectors felt mushy, and the take down pins could be pressed in a bit too easily for my liking; small things like that. In the end I'm sure they'd work for most people, but eventually they all got replaced with Colt parts. Most people probably don't care, but I do. It's the little things which make the difference for me. There seems to be a mindset that Bear Creek, Anderson, DPMS, Spike's etc, are just as good as (or the same thing), and I'm here to tell everybody that oft times they are not. YMMV.

Doc Safari

03-06-19, 16:05

I can see where you're coming from, and I by no means intend to start a flame war with you.

Don't get me wrong. I read a challenge into your comments, so for the sake of the audience I thought I'd clarify.

It seems we've had different experiences with the same stuff. I've used a lot of Colt rifles that have not had the greatest care, and at the end of the day they all seem to snap together and hold a zero like they're supposed to.

A year or two ago, I made the decision that since I'm getting older I'd switch to all Colt rifles in the belief they hold their value better. Not trying to start a debate on that, just stating why I've made the purchases I've made over the last two years.

In that time, I got a 6920 that the hammer pin walked. It was obviously a case of the factory worker not pushing it in all the way, because I pushed it in and it "clicked", and hasn't walked out since. Another rifle was my latest 6720 that fired fine the first 200 rounds, then when I pulled the bolt out to clean it I couldn't get it back in the bolt carrier. One of the bolt rings was kinked and evidently was functional until I removed the bolt and it had a chance to "jump" out of the groove. Again: a Colt factory worker assembly issue. I replaced all three rings and rocked on. It's my everyday shooter now.

I had two identical Colts in the 1990's. I swapped the uppers to try to give one rifle all the "nice looking" upper and lower, and let the one with cosmetic flaws be my shooter. When I swapped the uppers both rifles became unreliable. I never did figure that one out. Since then I've never had a new upper not work 100% with a lower.

During the panic buying I bought DPMS, Spike's, and Anderson lower parts because that was all I could find. ln some way they all seemed to leave me slightly dissatisfied, as they all seemed to not fit or function quite as nicely as the Colt parts I usually use.

Well, lessee: I've had Bushmasters. On one the trigger wouldn't reset. At all. All of them seemed to be less than reliable. I've had BCM's that I was very satisfied with, until I fired two different BCM's side-by-side with two different Colts, and the Colts were more accurate. Maybe that's not true of every batch. My BCM's were very low serial numbers in the 900 range.

For example the safety selectors felt mushy, and the take down pins could be pressed in a bit too easily for my liking; small things like that. In the end I'm sure they'd work for most people, but eventually they all got replaced with Colt parts. Most people probably don't care, but I do. It's the little things which make the difference for me. There seems to be a mindset that Bear Creek, Anderson, DPMS, Spike's etc, are just as good as (or the same thing), and I'm here to tell everybody that oft times they are not. YMMV.

As stated earlier, I've gone all Colt all the time, but it's not like they can't have their quirks or bad parts too.

Hammer_Man

03-06-19, 18:14

Don't get me wrong. I read a challenge into your comments, so for the sake of the audience I thought I'd clarify.

I can see how my post came across that way, but I have no beef with you. You're one of the forum members I respect highly.

A year or two ago, I made the decision that since I'm getting older I'd switch to all Colt rifles in the belief they hold their value better. Not trying to start a debate on that, just stating why I've made the purchases I've made over the last two years.

In that time, I got a 6920 that the hammer pin walked. It was obviously a case of the factory worker not pushing it in all the way, because I pushed it in and it "clicked", and hasn't walked out since. Another rifle was my latest 6720 that fired fine the first 200 rounds, then when I pulled the bolt out to clean it I couldn't get it back in the bolt carrier. One of the bolt rings was kinked and evidently was functional until I removed the bolt and it had a chance to "jump" out of the groove. Again: a Colt factory worker assembly issue. I replaced all three rings and rocked on. It's my everyday shooter now.

Sorry to hear your new rifles gave you issues out of the box. I've owned three 6920s, one of which was an early SOCOM model with the Knight's rail. None of them ever had any fit, finish, or function issues. I did purchase those rifles years ago, before Colt's current financial woes... I hope your experience does not become the norm. Recently I did have an issue with a Colt barrel and a Colt bcg, both of which I purchased from AU. When I contacted Colt about my issues, they fixed them both under warranty without questions asked. It's that sort of customer service that keeps me as their customer.

Well, lessee: I've had Bushmasters. On one the trigger wouldn't reset. At all. All of them seemed to be less than reliable. I've had BCM's that I was very satisfied with, until I fired two different BCM's side-by-side with two different Colts, and the Colts were more accurate. Maybe that's not true of every batch. My BCM's were very low serial numbers in the 900 range.

I've never purchased a Bushmaster because I've picked up a few at the fun counter, and found small issues with a lot of them. Most recently I checked out a Bushmaster A2 my local store had on the rack, and the stock was loose. It was obvious somebody at the factory forgot to tighten the screw down all the way. So I'm not in a rush to buy a Bushmaster anytime soon. It's interesting your Colt shot that much better than a factory BCM, but than again Colt barrels have a solid reputation.

As stated earlier, I've gone all Colt all the time, but it's not like they can't have their quirks or bad parts too.

True, all manufacturers are bound to produce a clunker every now and then.

Gunfixr

03-06-19, 18:42

That doesn't really prove anything, except one rusted and one didn't.
Now, that is not to say that cheap parts are as good as quality parts, for that is not so.
But, why one part is rusted, and one is not, has many variables, and quality of the part is but one of them.
Yes, quality parts may not rust as easily, but they will rust just the same. These are Springs, and while there are many grades of steel, only a few are usable for Springs.

Not to mention, that having a single raindrop fall into one percussion cap, in a cap loader, on a rainy day, where caps were used all day long, says that perhaps one spring saw more water than the other.

1168

03-06-19, 19:42

I've disassembled Colt A2s that had mud caked in the lower receiver for who knows how long. Want to know how many rusted springs I found? ZERO.

While I can agree that Euro’s post is unscientific, I also believe it has merit. I’ve taken M4’s and M16’s swimming on more than one occasion, and trekked in rainy, humid swamps and forests with them for days (weeks even) on end more than once, as well. Returning to garrison, I usually found a bit of orange on the barrel under the handguards, no matter how much CLP I slathered on before use.

But I have not ever noted any rust in the coil springs, such as the selector detent spring. Or any other spring, for that matter.

I did, however deadline a RRA LPK on a personally owned gun in pretty short order due to rust.

Coal Dragger

03-06-19, 20:00

Thanks for the write up useful post Eurodriver.

I agree that you get what you pay for most of the time with firearms, parts, optics etc.

In this instance I’m taking away an additional lesson that it’s not a bad idea to pull the pistol grip and inspect, dry, clean, and lube springs if one of my M4’s has gotten soaked. It’s pretty easy to do and could save a guy some grief.

Eurodriver

03-06-19, 20:10

My question is what lead to this need to clean them? Easy fix, get good part and don't clean. Problem solved......... ;)

I didn’t clean them. I was swapping grips to be color coordinated when I sell my poverty upper for something a little more Kool And Christlike.

MegademiC

03-06-19, 20:21

If you all really want to know, I can tell you what they are made of.
XRF is non-destructive ball-parking
AA can get to fractions of a %.

I have access to both.
Was it water, lack of lube, or material differences-only one way to know.

Hammer_Man

03-06-19, 20:30

While I can agree that Euro’s post is unscientific, I also believe it has merit. I’ve taken M4’s and M16’s swimming on more than one occasion, and trekked in rainy, humid swamps and forests with them for days (weeks even) on end more than once, as well. Returning to garrison, I usually found a bit of orange on the barrel under the handguards, no matter how much CLP I slathered on before use.

But I have not ever noted any rust in the coil springs, such as the selector detent spring. Or any other spring, for that matter.

I did, however deadline a RRA LPK on a personally owned gun in pretty short order due to rust.

The fact that most A2s still continue to truck on, despite the abuse and neglect they've received all their life, is a testament to me of their build quality. I'm sure the small parts Colt sourced for those weapons plays a big part in their long life.

26 Inf

03-07-19, 00:01

While I can agree that Euro’s post is unscientific, I also believe it has merit. I’ve taken M4’s and M16’s swimming on more than one occasion, and trekked in rainy, humid swamps and forests with them for days (weeks even) on end more than once, as well. Returning to garrison, I usually found a bit of orange on the barrel under the handguards, no matter how much CLP I slathered on before use.

But I have not ever noted any rust in the coil springs, such as the selector detent spring. Or any other spring, for that matter.

I did, however deadline a RRA LPK on a personally owned gun in pretty short order due to rust.

Has the .mil changed that much post 9/11? We weren't allowed to take them down far enough to see any of the coiled springs.

1168

03-07-19, 03:58

Has the .mil changed that much post 9/11? We weren't allowed to take them down far enough to see any of the coiled springs.

Technically, neither was I. But, like Euro, I have felt the need to change grips, and usually put a Hogue on just prior to a deployment rotation, and put the stock A2 back on before returning stateside to avoid it disappearing. It was a fairly common practice that was overlooked in my unit in the early 2000’s.

Later in my career, I didn’t have to worry about my stuff growing legs in the armsroom, (different unit, more rank) and the armorer would install it for me while I watched.

Today, I’m happy whenever I get to draw a rifle, and I use it as-issued on such a rare opportunity.

Hammer_Man

03-07-19, 06:18

Has the .mil changed that much post 9/11? We weren't allowed to take them down far enough to see any of the coiled springs.

No they have not, but what the arms room doesn't see...

wanderson

03-07-19, 18:44

26 Inf

03-07-19, 23:21

Technically, neither was I. But, like Euro, I have felt the need to change grips, and usually put a Hogue on just prior to a deployment rotation, and put the stock A2 back on before returning stateside to avoid it disappearing. It was a fairly common practice that was overlooked in my unit in the early 2000’s.

Later in my career, I didn’t have to worry about my stuff growing legs in the armsroom, (different unit, more rank) and the armorer would install it for me while I watched.

Today, I’m happy whenever I get to draw a rifle, and I use it as-issued on such a rare opportunity.

Thanks (Hammer also)!

Kind of what I thought.

Pappabear

03-08-19, 08:40

Regardless whether he scuba dived with one and not another ( which he didn't) LMT parts may be a chosen part over DPMS, which is the point of the story. Just one more iteration of the cold hard facts from which this sight cut its teeth IMHO.

You can get most any spring to rust, but which one will rust first and which will withstand the performance standards we desire?

PB

hile

03-08-19, 09:47

I usually use BCM parts, have some takedown springs that are private labeled as Brownells; the only thing I have that is branded DPMS are takedown latch detents. All my triggers are either milspec (in my one DD rifle), Geissele, BCM PNT, KAC, or LMT (1 ea in lowers from those last two manufacturers.)

noonesshowmonkey

03-08-19, 15:08

I am genuinely curious what the low level crunch is on these. As in, what flavor of steel was used, any coatings / finishing, heat treating, etc. There's a scientific answer to how one ended up rusted to shit and the other didn't. It may just come down to "one got and stayed wet and the other didn't", but without looking into the metallurgical crunch, who knows.

Also, for any of you fellas using carb/brake cleaner on your kit, those ethyl & alkyl groups are profoundly powerful oxidizers. I don't care what your springs / parts are made out of, if any of that stuff is allowed to touch, much less sit on, those parts, they will rust.

MegademiC

03-08-19, 19:42

Deleted- going too far off the rails.

lysander

03-09-19, 13:11

The drawing specifies carbon steel music wire for the springs.

Carbon steel is not immune to rusting.

3ACR_Scout

03-11-19, 11:30

During the panic buying I bought DPMS, Spike's, and Anderson lower parts because that was all I could find. ln some way they all seemed to leave me slightly dissatisfied, as they all seemed to not fit or function quite as nicely as the Colt parts I usually use. For example the safety selectors felt mushy, and the take down pins could be pressed in a bit too easily for my liking; small things like that. In the end I'm sure they'd work for most people, but eventually they all got replaced with Colt parts.
I had a similar experience with the factory parts in my old Bushmaster, my first AR that I purchased after the AWB sunset in ‘04. The selector was always very mushy, and I replaced it a few months ago with a Colt selector, detent, and spring. The cadmium had worn off the tip of the Bushmaster detents for both the selector and the rear takedown pin - kind of an exposed silver patch on the tip of both detents. The rifle only had 724 rounds through it at that point, so it looks like the plating had just worn off from being disassembled a dozen times and having the safety selector manipulated (probably less than 100 times) over the five years I had used it sporadically before it sat idle for about a decade.

I buy Colt LPKs whenever Arms Unlimoted gets them back in stock for $50 - I don’t see any reason to save $10 by buying another brand. Unfortunately, they’ve been out of stock for a while and may not get them in again anytime soon, since Colt is apparently trying to get out of the parts / components business.

GrumpyM4

03-11-19, 15:40

Wow. ****ing retarded thread is ****ing retarded.

Process of assembly has more to do with this than virtually anything else. A few drops of oil or a dab of grease works wonders.

I've pulled many a spring out of milspec guns in the ME that looked exactly like this. Quality parts and milspec parts are not immune to this. God forbid I mention all the front sight posts that were rusted in place because the soldiers didn't do shit to take care of their equipment.... By the way, did I mention that I ran into more than one unit that cycled in to Afghanistan that had the rule that soldiers were not supposed to clean their weapons unless they had like an E5 or E6 present to watch them do it.... meaning they almost never got cleaned and maintenanced...… oh yea, and they arrived in country without a bottle of CLP to their name (at least that they would admit to). We kept a full sized squirt bottle on hand so we could do a quick spray into the actions of guns that came in for inspection and gauging at the FOBS just so the guns would work right when they went out to zero prior to heading outside the wire.

Seeing rust like that tells me more about the person who assembled the gun or was responsible for the maintenance of the gun than it does about the quality of the parts.

The fact that there's a thread of this length and of this amount of hurt feelings over something so ****ing stupid is beyond me.

hotrodder636

03-11-19, 16:59

A thread to say “buy good parts, inspect and take care of your gear”. We have heard from SMEs and Professionals many times that springs and such are consumable parts. Buy quality, buy spares.

Pappabear

03-11-19, 18:31

I got so lucky when the Obama fiasco hit, I called scottsdale gun club and they held me the one Bushmaster they had in stock. I said I will be there id 20 minutes. When I arrived, they put a Colt 6940 on the wall. I barely knew the difference between Colt and Bushy. It cost $400 more but had a rail and the sales guy said Buy The Colt. Hence my first AR. Id rather be lucky than good.

Black gun fever ensued.

PB

Boba Fett v2

03-12-19, 19:45

Care to expand on that? Could you, I dunno, tell us what it does have to do with then? While you’re answering those questions maybe you can also answer this as well:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/12/bb/74/12bb747ebc3c94d638257f18ab25d307.jpg

Yesterday when I got off work I decided to spend an evening doing maintenance on my firearms. I found something interesting, wanted to share it with M4C, took a picture, uploaded it, and made a post here showing two springs that have had equal amounts of time (almost a decade each) in similar real world conditions. I didn’t go scuba diving with one rifle and not the other. One rifle wasn’t abused while the other lived a safe queen life. Both lived side by side in the same safe and Saw the same rifle ranges and went to the same shooting competitions and rode in the same Mercedes. Both lowers were put together between 8-10 years ago. Both have had the same user and the same cleaning regimen.

One is rusted and one is not.

I didn’t perform a metallurgical analysis on both springs. I didn’t insinuate anything. I didn’t post anything controversial or anything that needed evidence. I didn’t claim anything other than “Spring A was from a known maker and isn’t rusted, Spring B was in a cheap LPK and is rusted. Both lived the same life.” which is exactly what happened.

And then you post something with nothing to back it up.

While I won’t for a second claim to bring anything close to the amount of information to M4C that Doc and Molon brought, I can see why they left.

GH41 - The Information Killer

Lol that edit tho...

First AR ever pwned was a DPMS. Hammer pin broke only after a few magazines got ran through. Ive been a quality whore ever since.

Dr. Bullseye

03-12-19, 22:32

I am just a beginner so bear with me.

I decided to replace my bolt catch. There were many options in the Brownells catalog, some offering more functions than my original. I bought a Colt. Colt was not the cheapest or the most expensive but my reasoning is it would be the closest thing to mil spec and pose less unintended consequences as opposed to the more exotic bolt catches. It is fine.

So, if there is no other motive to replace something, why not go with the basic mil spec solution from the highest quality company possible? Especially if it does not cost any more.

Second example. I bought a Sprinco Orange buffer spring (the strongest) and upgraded to an H2 buffer to fix an ejection problem. It was overkill. The unintended consequences were a failure to lock back on the last round and (apparently) some sort of short stroking resulting in jams sometimes. Eventually, I went to an H1 buffer and mil spec spring. The H1 was just enough and the mil spec spring works perfectly.

LowSpeed_HighDrag

03-13-19, 04:21

Parts is parts see.

This is why I, exclusively use Colt/BCM/LMT factory lowers. They are of known quantity and quality.

Eurodriver

03-13-19, 05:23

Firefly

03-13-19, 08:26

Lol that edit tho...

First AR ever ownwmed was a DPMS. Hammer pin broke only after a few magazines got ran through. Ive been a quality whore ever since.

Exact same thing happened to me bro

Outlander Systems

03-13-19, 08:42

Unscientfic science is unscientific buuuuuuuut:

I have been known to use harsh chemicals for cleaning. One manufacturer's springs rusted from the use of this chemical, and the lower that had a BCM LPK in it did not.

Take that as "parts is parts."

Firefly

03-13-19, 09:15

Boba Fett v2

03-13-19, 11:50

Quote Depeche Mode

“MY DPMS RECON II DOES THE EXACT SAME AS YOUR UPPITY WHITEBOY SR25. I WOULDN’T SPEND 5 LARGE ON A GUN THATS NOT COMBAT WORTHY”

Lol well that rules me out. :lol:

Firefly

03-13-19, 11:52

Lol well that rules me out. :lol:

Yeah he should’ve gotten a FAL amirite :jester:

MountainRaven

03-13-19, 13:30

Yeah he should’ve gotten a FAL amirite

Hey, the FAL finally caught up with the SR-25:

Now they're both in Wildlands.

:jester:

skimbleshanks

03-14-19, 04:38

So one spring rusted and the other didn't. One was a quality brand and one was a budget focused brand. The discovery of the rusty spring wasn't due to failure though. The shitty brand rusty spring was still chugging along? Still doing its job? I fail to see how this is some massive buyer beware or told you so moment. Seems like maybe hey check here during maintenance because you could have rusty springs. Here in the pnw ****ing everything rusts so I'm off to check my springs. The dhitty ones AND the good ones.

sig1473

03-14-19, 12:25

Hey, the FAL finally caught up with the SR-25:

Now they're both in Wildlands.

:jester:

I'm ashamed for knowing what you mean..........

PretendOperator

03-17-19, 00:58

Here's something to add to the "Just as good" fire. This was from a PSA branded LPK, fresh out of the bag earlier this week.

56443

MountainRaven

03-17-19, 02:09

Here's something to add to the "Just as good" fire. This was from a PSA branded LPK, fresh out of the bag earlier this week.

56443

That looks like a Schmid. Schmids are used in Sionics and LMT rifles and are the basis for the ALG QMS and ACT. I believe they are also used in most Colts and most FCGs in actual military-production M16 and M4 FOW rifles.

Could be that PSA got a second from Schmid, but I wouldn't ordinarily expect to see a Schmid look like that from the factory.

phixion

03-17-19, 02:57

That looks like a Schmid. Schmids are used in Sionics and LMT rifles and are the basis for the ALG QMS and ACT. I believe they are also used in most Colts and most FCGs in actual military-production M16 and M4 FOW rifles.

Could be that PSA got a second from Schmid, but I wouldn't ordinarily expect to see a Schmid look like that from the factory.

Indeed; however, I dismiss the notion that PSA got a 'second'.

Here's something to add to the "Just as good" fire. This was from a PSA branded LPK, fresh out of the bag earlier this week.

56443

PSA ships THOUSANDS of orders per day. It slipped through. Contact their CS and get a replacement.

Outlander Systems

03-17-19, 06:37

They are used in Colts as well.

That looks like a Schmid. Schmids are used in Sionics and LMT rifles and are the basis for the ALG QMS and ACT. I believe they are also used in most Colts and most FCGs in actual military-production M16 and M4 FOW rifles.

Could be that PSA got a second from Schmid, but I wouldn't ordinarily expect to see a Schmid look like that from the factory.

Doc Safari

03-17-19, 11:20

I guess I'm not seeing what's wrong with that hammer. Could be I'm looking at the pic on my phone.

Striker6

03-17-19, 11:23

I guess I'm not seeing what's wrong with that hammer. Could be I'm looking at the pic on my phone.
There is a big ass crack on the lower third of the hammer face.

Doc Safari

03-17-19, 11:55

Got it. Had to enlarge it on my phone to see it.

docsherm

03-17-19, 12:24

Quoth Depeche Mode, “Everything counts in small amounts”

All these people who go for “good deals” pay at some point.

“MY DPMS RECON II DOES THE EXACT SAME AS YOUR UPPITY WHITEBOY SR25. I WOULDN’T SPEND 5 LARGE ON A GUN THATS NOT COMBAT WORTHY”

A month later

“MY DPMS RECON II DIED AFTER 400 ROUNDS. I AM CALLING MANUFACTURER. I CANNOT BELIEVE THIS! CAN YOU ALL BELIEVE THIS??”

Never fails....

....except the parts :rolleyes:

I know exactly what you mean. I have a DPMS lower that I put together with CMt parts back in 2000. I have had to almost completely replace all of the parts and gone through 3 triggers in the time in have had it. And now I have to use KNS pins for the trigger.

FYI... it is SBRed and has over 55k through it. ;)

Pappabear

03-17-19, 17:10

Here's something to add to the "Just as good" fire. This was from a PSA branded LPK, fresh out of the bag earlier this week.

56443

Well Well Well, point well taken. Shit be shit and shit be shit...PSA be ....

docsherm

03-17-19, 17:34

Well Well Well, point well taken. Shit be shit and shit be shit...PSA be ....

Or it was a bad batch...........

26 Inf

03-17-19, 18:33

Well Well Well, point well taken. Shit be shit and shit be shit...PSA be ....

Did you by any chance read the prior posts: Schmid Tool and Engineering is an OEM supplier to many companies, including Colt - unless someone replaced the parts in my one and only Colt lower.

Granted, Schmid or PSA should have caught it, but dayum......

But, if I was you I'd look at every AR I owned and get rid of any part with an S cast or stamped on it.

R0CKETMAN

03-18-19, 06:29

This could also be the difference between a chrome silicon spring vs a stainless steel spring.

When I started shooting corrosive 7n6 I bought some new 20round GI mags, half were chrome silicon, the other half stainless steel. Never cleaned the mags for the first year, didn’t think they needed it. Opened them up after a year and the chrome silicon had significant surface rust. Stainless steel were fine.

SS rust too .. ask any offshore fisherman

Unscientfic science is unscientific buuuuuuuut:

Yep presume both springs didn’t have the same “life”

Spring maker of each would be useful, maybe...

Hammer_Man

03-18-19, 11:26

That looks like a Schmid. Schmids are used in Sionics and LMT rifles and are the basis for the ALG QMS and ACT. I believe they are also used in most Colts and most FCGs in actual military-production M16 and M4 FOW rifles.

Could be that PSA got a second from Schmid, but I wouldn't ordinarily expect to see a Schmid look like that from the factory.

I didn't know PSA used Schmid parts. It does appear to have been plated with some sort of nickel boron coating, perhaps the plating was done at a third party outfit... That's just my guess.

phixion

03-18-19, 12:10

I didn't know PSA used Schmid parts. It does appear to have been plated with some sort of nickel boron coating, perhaps the plating was done at a third party outfit... That's just my guess.

My experience stops ~ late 2015, but every PSA lower parts kit and complete lower I came across during that time used Schmid components -- triggers, bolt catches, selectors, etc.

Mr McSimon

03-18-19, 20:33

I had my small parts bin out tonight and decided to snap a pic for this thread. The BCM looks a lot like the PSA and Aero, I'd bet it's the same safety but special order to have the star instead of the S. Nice touch if you ask me, or at least in line with the rest of the manufacturing world where a select few factories produce the same brand name. generic, and private label products side by side. I have a SOLGW LPK on order, and I saw or read somewhere they use Schmid too. I didn't check all the other parts, but the PSA bolt catch was also marked with an S.

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7912/47363662102_20f1b2d5fe_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2fan9BQ)

sig1473

03-18-19, 22:23

I've never ever had a PSA LPK come with a 'S' marked safety. YMMV

PretendOperator

03-20-19, 00:28

That looks like a Schmid. Schmids are used in Sionics and LMT rifles and are the basis for the ALG QMS and ACT. I believe they are also used in most Colts and most FCGs in actual military-production M16 and M4 FOW rifles.

Could be that PSA got a second from Schmid, but I wouldn't ordinarily expect to see a Schmid look like that from the factory.

I learned something about AR small parts today, thanks for that. I have a bag of hammers laying around, so it wasn't worth the effort to exchange that one.

Turns out this is more of a lesson about inspecting ALL parts that you install into a rifle, regardless of their manufacture, than it should be about dogging a budget brand.

Esq.

03-20-19, 05:08

Seeing as how the space shuttle has turned into a bottle rocket TWICE in my lifetime and the money spent on its parts, engineering and quality control far exceeds what even a "premium" AR15 manufacturer spends on their guns I think the Best practice is to personally check and verify your own stuff-NO MATTER WHO SUPPOSEDLY MADE IT. If you have the knowledge and skill to do that, I dont think names matter a whole lot.

However, I seriously doubt that 99% of the guys on this forum have the ability to tell the difference between two unmarked and identical bolts-one made of c158 and the other of 9130. At some point we all are at the mercy of people we dont really know and have no means of "fact checking", not really......So, buy decent quality stuff from reputable companies, check it as best you can and if it breaks, replace it and drive on. It's not something to lose sleep over.

jerrysimons

03-20-19, 10:27

LWRC springs are all black oxide finished. Nice touch

Mr McSimon

03-29-19, 20:11

Here's another little tidbit to reinforce the value of using high quality parts. I'm a big fan of the Norgon style ambi mag release, but at $80 a pop for the real thing I've been using the $25 knockoffs. They've been working good, but I finally decided to upgrade my URG-i build to the real thing, so to KNOW what the difference between the two are instead of just going with the cheap one is "just as good" model.

Well, probably because of my attention being called to it in another thread talking about the mag release button extending beyond the cage, it was instantly obvious that with the knockoff and 8-9 turns the button was still beyond the plane of the cage. After installing the Norgon and 9 turns, the button sits nice and low as intended. Worth an extra $55? Maybe not to everybody, but I'll be converting my other lowers over when I can, and I'll try to remember and practice more, "buy once, cry once".