View Full Version : Is a 4moa Dot Too Big?
Hi all,
I'm goofing around with a budget NV set-up. I have a Bushnell Equinox Z 3x30 on the way, and I'm looking at a Vortex Strikefire II.
(I'm a civilian. This is going to be strictly recreational, and at most used to shoot varmints in my backyard.)
The Strikefire II has a 4moa dot, and I've seen comments that it's too big when magnified.
That makes sense, given that 3x a 4moa dot would be 12" across at 100yds...
Can one of you guys with more experience please tell me whether a 4 moa dot is a mistake?
Eurodriver
03-08-19, 16:17
I think you’re making a mistake. A 4MOA dot is 4” at 100 yards no matter how much magnification is behind it.
With your setup you’ll not be able to see anything clearly enough that a dot of any size will matter at 100y anyway.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding, or maybe I didn't explain what I'm worried about... (Thank you for your patience with my dumb question.)
Isn't a red dot in front of a magnifier kind of like a first-focal-plane reticle, so a 3x magnifier behind a 4moa dot means a 12moa dot?
Otherwise, I don't anticipate/hope to at 100yds with this... It's only 20yds to my back fence.
I do plan to use an extra IR illuminator. (Streamlight TLR-1 IR?)
Eurodriver
03-08-19, 16:26
The dot gets 3x bigger as perceived by your eye, but so does the target proportionally.
Thinking it out logically, a magnifier takes everything of what’s in front of it and magnifies it. It isn’t gonna magnify the dot, but not the target and vice versa.
Do you have a FFP scope? The entire point of the retical on a FFP scope is that it does not change size in relation to the target so that you can properly measure distance and holds at all magnifications.
20-50y is good. That will be a sweet setup with good IR illum.
Here is a video I made a long time ago of a 4MOA dot on the T-1 and a cam as a magnifier...shows what Euro is talking about.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6E7vBXhf3Q
The dot gets 3x bigger as perceived by your eye, but so does the target proportionally.
Oh, duh, that does make sense... (Slapping forehead.)
20-50y is good. That will be a sweet setup with good IR illum.
Right. I'm not expecting too-good-to-be-true performance out of a $150 NV set-up, just the ability to see and perhaps take a shot at whatever's creeping around outside, without turning on the lights.
On the other hand, there are guys claiming good imaging out to 200+yds with an extra IR illuminator... We'll see.
Here is a video I made a long time ago of a 4MOA dot on the T-1 and a cam as a magnifier...
That's really helpful... This'll be my first red dot, and I'm used to "fine crosshairs" on scopes, but a 4 moa dot seems entirely manageable.
Happy to help:)
Here is my first attempt at "Aimpoint Vision", and IIrc the cam I was using only had 10x.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMjB6jYLaCo
Isn't a red dot in front of a magnifier kind of like a first-focal-plane reticle, so a 3x magnifier behind a 4moa dot means a 12moa dot?
It's FFP and remains a 3moa dot.
Eurodriver
03-08-19, 21:43
Happy to help:)
Here is my first attempt at "Aimpoint Vision", and IIrc the cam I was using only had 10x.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMjB6jYLaCo
I love those videos. Care to share the setup?
Appreciate it. I just bubba things up, and the last video...or first one was this setup:
56318
Second video was with this setup...
56319
56320
All of them shared this same bubba'd mount made from a larue with a epoxy base that features a screw that is common to most cam tripod holes. Put a piece of stiff foam to dampen the recoil vibration on the quality of the video. This was years ago, and I'm sure now somebody could create a much more elegant and effective solution.
https://i.imgur.com/bO7Cw97.jpg
ETA: I just remembered, and looked at that pic again of the first setup....I tried to epoxy a cheaper cam or the one in the pic straight onto the Larue base mount, but after a mag or two it snapped the plastic or something. When I used the epoxy screw mount as shown in big pic...things never broke, but still hard to lock the camera down from rotating after a few rounds due to recoil. Vibratite would do wonders though I'm sure.
monkeywrench
03-09-19, 10:43
The vortex StrikeFire II also only lasts 600 hours on one battery. Also the battery is a weird one that you just can't pick up at the gas station.
Our first m68cco in the military were 4moa and they served us well for quite some time.
The vortex StrikeFire II also only lasts 600 hours on one battery. Also the battery is a weird one that you just can't pick up at the gas station.
Is that 600 hours, or 6,000 hours? I'm not worried about battery life... There's even an automatic shut-off after 12 hours, in case I leave it on.
In an ideal world I'd be buying an Aimpoint CompM5 that would run on AAA batteries, but buying 2-3 extra CR2 batteries and storing the spares in the buttstock or the pistol grip is no big deal. CR2s aren't as common as AAs or even CR123s, but they're not weird, either.
Our first m68cco in the military were 4moa and they served us well for quite some time.
This is reassuring... Thank you!
monkeywrench
03-10-19, 15:08
6000 hrs. The trijicon mro is better. Lasts 5 years with a standard CR2032 battery. On the vortex It is advised to remove the battery every time you use it. Because the battery might become corrosion. I bought one never used it. Gave it away. On a dedicated home defense rifle it was a no go. But I do have a Romeo 5 on a 22 upper. You should look at those if you are on a budget.
They use the same CR2032 battery and have a battery life of 50,000 hours. Also don't have to worry about the battery leaking.
The Romeo is lighter and has a 2 Moa dot. Also they only run about $125.00. As the vortex is $175.00.
A mini-red dot is a non-starter... I need something 30mm, because the night vision will be looking through it.
Again, battery life is not a big deal to me. CR2 batteries are $2-3 each, and since I won't be leaving it on, a 6,000 hour battery life will probably last me 50 years.
Also, CR2 are lithium camera batteries, so I'm not worried about them leaking... The guys running high-end Canons and Nikons wouldn't be using these, otherwise.
monkeywrench
03-10-19, 16:02
I have a trijicon mro and I also have a pvs -14 I can see the 2 Moa dot just fine. It can be quick mounted behind the scope. But the dot and image gets distorted. If you are using night vision get a cheap ir laser.
If you are using night vision get a cheap ir laser.
Do you mean, skip the red dot, and just use a laser for aiming? Everything else I'm seeing says to put the NV behind a red dot...
Can you recommend an infrared laser for me?
Like this?
https://smile.amazon.com/Mounted-Laser-Infrared-Requires-least/dp/B00BD55OVG/ref=sr_1_7?keywords=infrared+laser&qid=1552253426&s=gateway&sr=8-7#customerReviews
Or this?
https://smile.amazon.com/Mounted-Laser-Infrared-Requires-least/dp/B005FSRDJI/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=laser+max+infrared+laser&qid=1552253645&s=gateway&sr=8-5
monkeywrench
03-10-19, 16:45
I just bought a cheap aimshot ir laser off ebay. This is what I bought:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/AimSHOT-1mW-IR-laser-w-QR-Rail-Mt-and-PressSwitch-KT9172/312215749315?epid=1827910218&hash=item48b18242c3:g:-bkAAOSwI2xbcywt
This one looks interesting :
https://www.ebay.com/p/AimSHOT-Compact-Rifle-1mw-IR-Laser-W-S-h/21013525770
To follow up...
The Bushnell Equinox arrived, and it's pretty cool, especially for what I paid ($120 off fleabay). The imagining with the on-board illuminator is plenty good to ID varmints at across-the-yard ranges (<50yds).
Downsides: It's longer than spec'ed (almost 8" rather than 6.5"), and the eye relief is ridiculously short, like 1/2" to my eyeglasses.
VortexOptics
03-19-19, 09:20
Hi all,
I'm goofing around with a budget NV set-up. I have a Bushnell Equinox Z 3x30 on the way, and I'm looking at a Vortex Strikefire II.
(I'm a civilian. This is going to be strictly recreational, and at most used to shoot varmints in my backyard.)
The Strikefire II has a 4moa dot, and I've seen comments that it's too big when magnified.
That makes sense, given that 3x a 4moa dot would be 12" across at 100yds...
Can one of you guys with more experience please tell me whether a 4 moa dot is a mistake?
Rest assured - a 4 MOA dot is 4 MOA regardless of the magnification behind it (Someone already said this but we will reiterate). A magnifier behind it will magnify the dot to make it appear larger, but it's also magnifying the image around the dot at the same rate, too. Thus, everything has been magnified at the exact same rate and are still in the same relation to one another as they were when it was at 1x. Definitely not too large for shooting at 100. Shooting out beyond 300 or so gets interesting, but is in no way impossible if you're just ringing steel.
Edit - holy smokes we're behind on this one. Sorry dudes. This has already been figured out lol
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