View Full Version : Lightweight KISS Carbine
Doc Safari
03-13-19, 14:41
As attempted in another thread, I've been on the quest to build a basic, lightweight KISS carbine that emphasizes light weight as long as properly accessorized, and without resorting to an obsessive search for any and every part that might save a few ounces.
Bottom line: I want to take a stock, off-the-rack rifle, and modify or accessorize it to save weight without going nuts over every little ounce.
The actual purpose of this thread is to list my basic setup, then to read about other setups that might suggest a "tweak" or two for my own rifle.
My result:
1. Basic Rifle: Colt 6720 pencil barrel carbine (although in my case I had an HBAR 6721 rebarrelled to the pencil weight barrel).
I personally prefer a barrel with the military FSB, but admittedly a pencil barrel with sight-less gas block would save a few ounces if you
would rather run with no fixed sights.
2. Stock: Standard mil-spec stock or one with similarly light weight (your preference). I also use the Magpul CTR stock because it has the QD sling
swivel socket, and seems to be not too much heavier than the standard stock unit.
3. Handguards: I tried many handguard/rail/flashlight/VFG combos and finally settled on the MagPul MOE handguards with polymer rail sections, QD sling socket, and TangoDown stubby VFG. Yes, there are lighter VFG's that I tried, but I decided I liked the feel and greater perceived durability of the TangoDown grip. I don't necessarily want to go gripless because the MOE handguards in my perception tend to heat up faster than standard ribbed milspec handguards. I'm a little concerned about the durability of the Magpul handguards, but for now they seemed to be the lightest, but most functional alternative.
4. Flashlight: I mounted the flashlight to the MOE handguard slots instead of using the Midwest Industries FSB mount because the FSB mount sort of shifts the rifle's balance a little too far forward for my taste. For the light itself I chose a Surefire G2 in a VLTOR mount (old school I know: that's 2010 calling to say it wants its light back). I started with a Streamlight TLR-3 due to it being almost weightless. While I look for a better solution, I opted the G2 because I think it's more durable than the Streamlight. The TLR-3 seems like it might be more breakable.
5. Optic: YMMV but I chose an Aimpoint T1 and for everyday use a Vortex Crossfire micro RDS. Either uses an American Defense quick detach mount appropriate for the T1. The only way I can see to save weight here is to use a skeletonized mount, like the one that comes with the Vortex, but I don't think you're saving that much weight. At some point I might try a Trijicon RMR in a tall mount, but I like the Aimpoint/Crossfire.
6. BUIS: Magpul folding MBUS. Polymer and adequately durable for a backup since I don't do the cowitness thing.
7. Magazines: The cherry on top is that I use USGI twenty round mags instead of thirty rounders.
8. Muzzle device: Your preference, but the Smith Enterprises Vortex G6A3 seemed to be just as light as the A2 hider but with better performance.
So that's it.
What's your lightweight KISS setup?
Well mine's KISS but not necessarily light, more light-ish.. I built mine with the help of a gunsmith friend, here's my list:
LMT stripped lower
Colt LPK
Geissele buffer tube, H2 buffer, super 42 spring
Colt 14.5 SOCOM barrel, this is were it stops getting light..
Colt BCG
BCM blem flat top stripped upper
DD A1 rear sight
Colt M4 buttstock
Magpul SL handguard.
Magpul MOE grip
I do like the SOCOM barrel, accurate in my hands and the weight does help with recoil control. The LMT lower is a bit tight with older magpul magazines but not with the newer ones, GI or Lancer magazines. Got a KNS pinhead front sight and painted the little globe on top gold.
Renegade04
03-13-19, 16:37
Here is mine. It comes in at 5 lbs. 14.7 ounces without magazine.
https://i.imgur.com/ujXIvrs.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/0nuRPu1.jpg
Upper Receiver:
AERO PRECISION Stripped Upper Receiver
Strike Industries Lightweight Forward Assist - Blk
Strike Industries Enhanced Ultimate Dust Cover - Standard/Blk
Strike Industries Charging Handle w/ Extended Latch - Blk
LaRue Tactical 16" 5.56 PredatAR barrel (mid-length) w/ M4 Feedramps
LaRue Tactical Low Profile Gas Block (.625") and Gas Tube
SLR Rifleworks Synergy BCF 5.56 Mod 1
SLR Rifleworks Helix 11.7" MLOK Handguard (HELIX-11.7ML)
SLR Rifleworks M-LOK Handstop Mod 2 (HS-ML2)
Battle Arms Development M16 Bolt Carrier Group - Black Nitride Finish (BAD-BCG-M16)
MAGPUL MBUS PRO Front & Rear sights (Blk)
HOLOSUN Paralow HS403A Red Dot Sight - 2 MOA
Lower Receiver:
McKay Enterprises A2 Lower Receiver (stripped)
Battle Arms Development BAD-EMMR Enhanced MODULAR Magazine Release - LG/Blk
Battle Arms Development Sabretube (Mid)/QD Endplate/B.A.D.-BS Stock Combo
Battle Arms Development Carbine buffer and Buffer Spring
Battle Arms Development Enhanced Takedown & Pivot Pin Set
Elftmann Tactical Ambidextrous Push-Button Speed Safety
CMC LANTAC E-CT1 Single Stage Flat Trigger 3.5LB Release
Forward Controls Design Augmented Bolt Catch/Release (ABC/R-F-BLK)
TYRANT DESIGNS CNC Mod Grip (Medium Chevron Panels)
CORE15 Trigger Guard
Doc Safari
03-13-19, 16:42
The only thing I don't like on that setup is the pistol grip. Isn't that open design incredibly uncomfortable?
While I don't have a light mounted or the sling on in the pic, off the shelf. May not be classed as light weight but it's so close it doesn't matter. Usefulness is an important thing to consider and also keeping selection simple in regards to "off the shelf". Surefire Mini Scout and Proctor sling.
http://i.imgur.com/KuLk1OA.jpg (https://imgur.com/KuLk1OA)
While I don't have a light mounted or the sling on in the pic, off the shelf. May not be classed as light weight but it's so close it doesn't matter. Usefulness is an important thing to consider and also keeping selection simple in regards to "off the shelf". Surefire Mini Scout and Proctor sling.
http://i.imgur.com/KuLk1OA.jpg (https://imgur.com/KuLk1OA)
I have a few lighter weight setups, and one is quite similar.
This isn’t the lightest thing i have, but it is the lightest non-pistol/SBR.
Colt 6920-OEM2
D&S (Colt subcontract) stock
Magpul MOE trigger guard
Troy SOCC 12.5”
DD A1.5 rear sight
DD fixed front sight
Proctor sling (just added)
https://i.imgur.com/X558zfM.jpg
That’s it. I came to the conclusion that that barrel is light enough (to me) for a basic, general purpose, free-floated carbine; anything lighter is a bonus, and if I go lighter profile, I’ll also go to 14.5”. Which is planned (Taran Tactical John Wick clone), once the house purchase is finished.
I haven’t added an optic, as I also like the idea of have an irons-only, simple rifle.
Renegade04
03-13-19, 20:56
The only thing I don't like on that setup is the pistol grip. Isn't that open design incredibly uncomfortable?
Not at all.
Me? Box-stock 6920 with carry handle sight.
BCM: 14.5 pinned LW barrel with KMR rail, Magpul Pro front/rear sights, BCM Mod 4 CH, Aimpoint H1. Made for my wife a few years ago when the KMR rail was first introduced, she hasn't touched it since.
Maybe I'll take it out tomorrow.
My basic SD/HD gun - all hard parts except stripped lower are BCM:
BCM 16" LW midlength URG w/FSB
Magpul MLOK handguards
IWC light mount w/Surefire G2x Tactical
Trijicon MRO, MI QD mount
Troy BUIS
Magpul CTR stock
Magpul sling
I replaced an Aimpoint PRO with the MRO because it is so much lighter.
Andy
Doc Safari
03-14-19, 10:19
Me? Box-stock 6920 with carry handle sight.
Good choice. I do the same thing in the 6720 flavor. Very lightweight--and it dawns on you when you're holding it that this light weight is what Gene Stoner intended for the original AR15.
As for my rifle in my first post, last night I was doing some tinkiering. I dug through the parts box to see what goodies I had unused. I ended up removing the MagPul MOE handguard, and installing a UTG Pro M-Lok drop-in carbine handguard. Same weight for the most part, but with more slots to mount stuff and it's gotta be more durable. I also am debating whether to put the KAC vertical foregrip instead of the TangoDown grip. That part I have not decided.
TexasAggie2005
03-14-19, 11:18
...I ended up removing the MagPul MOE handguard, and installing a UTG Pro M-Lok drop-in carbine handguard. Same weight for the most part, but with more slots to mount stuff and it's gotta be more durable...
Fellow M4C member @Eurodriver (does M4C have member tagging?) drove his 4runner over a 6920 with a MOE handguard multiple times. As I recall, the Magpul handguard was unscathed and the 6920 suffered some minor damage that Colt warrantied.
In the spirit of the thread, my LW-KISS is a Colt 6720 with Magpul Slimline furniture and a cutdown carry handle rear sight.
Doc Safari
03-14-19, 11:26
Fellow M4C member @Eurodriver (does M4C have member tagging?) drove his 4runner over a 6920 with a MOE handguard multiple times. As I recall, the Magpul handguard was unscathed and the 6920 suffered some minor damage that Colt warrantied.
Interesting. My internet search turned up that (apparently) the most likely thing to break is the tabs that lock into the handguard cap. I'm not sure if that's because the part is fragile there or if people are trying to force things back together with gorilla hands.
A 6920 isn’t exactly an M240 y’all, just saying
Pissant sized 17 year olds jumped into Germany with heavier guns that held less ammo
I have an SP1 carbine that is light but I wouldn’t take it over my slutty 6920
TexasAggie2005
03-14-19, 12:37
A 6920 isn’t exactly an M240 y’all, just saying
Pissant sized 17 year olds jumped into Germany with heavier guns that held less ammo
I have an SP1 carbine that is light but I wouldn’t take it over my slutty 6920
I view the 6720 as a "slutty 6920” without the stupid 16" gov profile barrel that puts useless extra weight in the dumbest place.
Doc Safari
03-14-19, 12:48
I view the 6720 as a "slutty 6920” without the stupid 16" gov profile barrel that puts useless extra weight in the dumbest place.
Agreed. I'm a dedicated member of the pencil barrel club. I shot three AR's side-by-side one day: Colt 6721 (HBAR M4), 6920 (govt profile), and 6720 (pencil barrel).
The 6721 was a nose-heavy beast. After two mags I said, "This one's either getting a re-barrel or it's getting sold." I ordered a genuine Colt 6720 barrel and converted it.
The 6720 was just right, with the correct balance and able to accept all the accessories without becoming excessively heavy.
The 6920 was okay, but compared to the 6720 it too is a nose-heavy beast.
grizzlyblake
03-14-19, 13:49
What is the intended use of these lightweight carbines?
My KISS rifles are as follows:
BCM standard mid length
Magpul MOE Handguard
IWC mount with Surefire G2X
VCAS sling
Aimpoint Pro
DD A1.5 rear sight
M4 stock
I also have a BCM standard carbine (think 6920 style) set up the same as above sans optic.
Could possibly replace the lights to a one cell down the line, but I like them the way they are now.
Doc Safari
03-14-19, 13:53
What is the intended use of these lightweight carbines?
I can only answer for my own tactical situation.
I live on a ranch in the southwest. A lot of times I have to park the truck and walk the fence line through rough terrain to make sure the fence hasn't been cut or that I don't have illegals or drug runners camping out on my property. Some places are hard to get to on foot much less in a vehicle. In that situation, I'm likely to have to fire on something or someone offhand with no arm rest of any kind. Hence the desire for a carbine that's light in the nose and comfortable to carry. In addition to the carbine I usually wear an FLC vest with several spare mags. So, anywhere I can save weight without being anal about it is a welcome thing to me.
MountainRaven
03-14-19, 14:05
My light weight KISS is an M16A1 homage with a 1:7 twist barrel.
vicious_cb
03-14-19, 14:38
Good choice. I do the same thing in the 6720 flavor. Very lightweight--and it dawns on you when you're holding it that this light weight is what Gene Stoner intended for the original AR15.
As for my rifle in my first post, last night I was doing some tinkiering. I dug through the parts box to see what goodies I had unused. I ended up removing the MagPul MOE handguard, and installing a UTG Pro M-Lok drop-in carbine handguard. Same weight for the most part, but with more slots to mount stuff and it's gotta be more durable. I also am debating whether to put the KAC vertical foregrip instead of the TangoDown grip. That part I have not decided.
UTG is barely better than airsoft quality parts. I would take the lowest priced magpul product over any UTG product everytime.
Renegade04
03-14-19, 15:11
My light weight KISS is an M16A1 homage with a 1:7 twist barrel.
Absolutely nothing wrong with those. I have several myself. The M16A1 weighs 6.5 lbs without a magazine or sling.
Doc Safari
03-14-19, 15:24
UTG is barely better than airsoft quality parts. I would take the lowest priced magpul product over any UTG product everytime.
As a historical fact, yes. I think the Pro Line might be different, i.e. better. This particular handguard is the UTG Pro line made in the USA. They are trying to make inroads into the quality AR components field. The one I installed is made from 6061-T6 Aluminum (as per Leapers' website).
It seems to be in good company on this list (although mine isn't the free-floated one they include):
https://www.pewpewtactical.com/best-ar-15-handguards/
A short mention here:
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/03/22/utg-announces-usa-made-pro-s4-stock-assembly/
UTG, typically known for their off-short inexpensive offerings, has been making a hard push into US Manufacturing. Their UTG PRO rails have been well received in both MLOK and Keymod profiles...
This is not my particular handguard, but here's a review of the basic product line, and how it holds up:
https://youtu.be/2cXJ_uVTT3M
Other than a screw that broke (partly due to installing with blue loctite), he seems to be mostly satisfied with it. Not that every neckbeard on Amazon.com or any of the accessory vendor websites can be believed, but the thing gets mostly positive reviews all over the net.
Some of the comments below the MrGunsngear video are positive, as well. It's important too that the M-Lok drop-in version does not use the same type of attachment that the keymod one uses in his video. I have not watched every YouTube video on the UTG Pro rails, but I've read a lot of reviews, mostly positive.
I know in the past UTG has made junk from solid Chinesium, but I've had one of the UTG Pro's installed on another carbine that's taken a few bumps and it seems to be holding up. Everything fit, no problem with soft metal in the screws, no issues with things being out of spec for the M-Lok accessories. The rail that came with it was difficult to install a "sliding" foregrip, but any accessory that clamps on was GTG. No, it isn't a KAC RAS, but for a decent budget handguard so far it's been "good enough." For about $75 I thought it was worth a look before I plunk down several hundred bucks on something "better". Time will tell. I would NOT buy one of the basic Chinese-made ANYTHING from UTG, but from what I've been reading they are trying to make some better stuff in the US-made Pro line. YMMV, but I already believe the M-Lok UTG Pro handguard is better than airsoft quality. It just feels like a quality piece (maybe not combat grade), and the fit of everything was just fine: no filing, misaligned screw holes, flexing required. (All those issues I've experienced with other handguards).
Bottom line: It may not be ideal, but I think the quality is sufficient that it will do until I can research and purchase a better alternative.
Just like a Vortex Crossfire ain't an Aimpoint but is functional, I'd say the same about the UTG Pro handguard.
I view the 6720 as a "slutty 6920” without the stupid 16" gov profile barrel that puts useless extra weight in the dumbest place.
You don’t know what makes my 6920 the whore that she is. I have run Steel case rancid cyrillic marked Soviet ammo through it with the only real upgrades being an LMT bolt and a FF KAC RAS.
I mean it has shot ammo that would give an AK every STD plus cancer and still works.
Pencil barrels are “okay” but their blessing is their curse once it starts to heat up. You can even get a 14.5. I don’t like the whole M4 step because even if I had a 203; “The Man” says I cannot have White Phosphorus rounds because we live in such a free country.
Once it starts keyholing I will either get a Faxon or a Lilja Carbine barrel. Move the RAS to a CQBR barrel and use a URX of some kind. 3.1 if still available. Those larue KAC clone rails were great but I think discontinued.
If you gave some dude in 1969 a choice between a 6920 or a CAR15; he takes the 6920 all day.
Quit chasing the dragon. There are females who carry 6920s.
My light weight KISS is an M16A1 homage with a 1:7 twist barrel.
Next to Euro, JP, Docsherm, and 26inf, posts like these are why you are one of my favorite posters
Doc Safari
03-14-19, 15:53
Pencil barrels are “okay” but their blessing is their curse once it starts to heat up. (snip)
Once it starts keyholing I will either get a Faxon or a Lilja Carbine barrel. Move the RAS to a CQBR barrel and use a URX of some kind. 3.1 if still available. Those larue KAC clone rails were great but I think discontinued.
If you gave some dude in 1969 a choice between a 6920 or a CAR15; he takes the 6920 all day.
Quit chasing the dragon. There are females who carry 6920s.
How hot do you let yours get? I've never had trouble with a Colt 6720 getting so hot the accuracy degraded more than a little bit. Definitely never had one start keyholing. And I don't do mag dumps, either.
The pencil barrel was fine for what, twenty years?
I agree with this guy's assessment:
https://youtu.be/jnDsNTi4nmM
How hot do you let yours get? I've never had trouble with a Colt 6720 getting so hot the accuracy degraded more than a little bit. Definitely never had one start keyholing. And I don't do mag dumps, either. Not that I'm a match shooter anyway but I have fired cheapo pencil-barrelled AR's that started to shoot like AK's once they got hot.
I took my rifle to some training classes and it was a high volume round count for 80 hours worth of shooting. I saw two G36s and a Bushmaster literally say “F it” and die. Lug shearing, key coming off, you name it. And no way in hell were these guns run that hard prior.
A pencil would not have been a good fit.
Like a LOOOOT of state ammo gone through. Never seen that many boxes of American Eagle in my life and this was almost a decade ago now.
Ranges from 400 to 25. Some steel targets as well. I wished Geiselles were a thing then as my finger got wore out.
Irons only too. They took away ACOGs, leupolds, aimpoints, etc. just a sling an a light because the instructor was a former Marine Sergeant Major who was just not a fan of people using optics on HIS course dammit. The only thing that kept the G36 dudes in the game was they had the pic rail sights and not the built in optic otherwise they would have had the joy of lugging a Colt HBAR 20” everywhere
They still did once their guns died on day 5
Good times
A 6920 isn’t exactly an M240 y’all, just saying
Pissant sized 17 year olds jumped into Germany with heavier guns that held less ammo
I have an SP1 carbine that is light but I wouldn’t take it over my slutty 6920
I’d love to have a SP1 with a 1/7 - 1/9 twist barrel, and might even choose one over a 6920.
My light weight KISS is an M16A1 homage with a 1:7 twist barrel.
Where can I buy this? Or the barrel assembly?
My lightweight KISS rifle lately is a mock disappator that is slowly becoming more 605-like.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?212907-Simple-iron-sight-gun
I’ve been searching for a 1/7 twist 605-inspired barrel.
MountainRaven
03-14-19, 16:51
Absolutely nothing wrong with those. I have several myself. The M16A1 weighs 6.5 lbs without a magazine or sling.
I believe it weighs about the same as my 11.5" government profile barrel LMT/BCM/Geissele Federal pistol with CompM5 and M300 Scout does.
Next to Euro, JP, Docsherm, and 26inf, posts like these are why you are one of my favorite posters
:thank_you2:
Where can I buy this? Or the barrel assembly?
My lightweight KISS rifle lately is a mock disappator that is slowly becoming more 605-like.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?212907-Simple-iron-sight-gun
I’ve been searching for a 1/7 twist 605-inspired barrel.
Barrel (out of stock): Link (https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/barrel-parts/rifle-barrels/ar-15-20-a1-rifle-barrel-1-7-assembly-prod97909.aspx).
Complete upper: Link (https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/receiver-parts/receivers/upper-receivers/brn16a1-upper-receivers-complete-5-56-prod123697.aspx).
Mine is a Brownell's XM16E1 lower that I assembled with a bunch of LMT parts left over from, "upgrading," my LMT lower (with Forward Controls Design parts - the LMT parts are the right color, even if they aren't perfectly accurate for a retro build), a Geissele trigger, and a Brownell's A1 pistol grip, stock, and buffer tube kit that I just slapped the complete BRN16A1 1:7 twist upper on.
Pencil barrels are “okay” but their blessing is their curse once it starts to heat up.
You are aware the profile is the same on the back half of these? And that the back half gets hotter than the front half?
That M16's had a happy switch and were not known for melting down in Vietnam?
The FAL has a pencil barrel, as does the AK, SCAR...
Anyway, I've got a basic LW irons carbine. It's not built to be particularly lightweight, nor KISS.
BCM 14.5" LW FSB pinned A2X
C7 upper
Pretty regular carbine lower.
Round HG, homemade A1 grip (A2 with the finger groove sanded off) imod stock.
I didn’t say it would die like those other guns. They were just crappily made.
I said I didn’t want the spread. Pencils will in fact open up. I know, I have one. I said it wouldn’t be my first choice. Not that I would necessarily pick a rock over a pencil AR.
It’s just if you are buying a pencil and then putting stuff on it; it kinda betrays the point and the weight is still rather negligible.
But hey free country. I will concur that I wouldn’t want to be stuck with just a carry handle if it were a working gun
I like my A1 guns but those are toys.
Barrel (out of stock): Link (https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/barrel-parts/rifle-barrels/ar-15-20-a1-rifle-barrel-1-7-assembly-prod97909.aspx).
Complete upper: Link (https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/receiver-parts/receivers/upper-receivers/brn16a1-upper-receivers-complete-5-56-prod123697.aspx).
.
Thank you, sir. I was under the impression that these were 1/12 only. My Brownell’s wishlist grows again.
Doc Safari
03-14-19, 17:50
It’s just if you are buying a pencil and then putting stuff on it; it kinda betrays the point and the weight is still rather negligible.
.
Not trying to start an argument, just a discussion.
If there were a natural disaster and you had to walk 60 miles to the next town with all your other gear, would you still opt for the heavier weapon?
Having to hump the bush in the hills around my ranch is what got me into lighter and lighter weight to begin with (why I no longer own AK's to be frank).
Not trying to start an argument, just a discussion.
If there were a natural disaster and you had to walk 60 miles to the next town with all your other gear, would you still opt for the heavier weapon?
Having to hump the bush in the hills around my ranch is what got me into lighter and lighter weight to begin with (why I no longer own AK's to be frank).
Serious answer,
Maybe. I would learn to also be more conservative with my gear.
At a minimum, you should be able to bludgeon someone to death with your rifle if you run out of ammo and your knife breaks.
Where can I buy this? Or the barrel assembly?
I’ve been searching for a 1/7 twist 605-inspired barrel.
Here ya go (I bought one myself a few years ago and had ADCO put a FSB on it):
https://www.mckay-ent.com/parts/m16-a1-replacement-barrel.html
They are listed as out of stock but they come and go, so might want to give them a call or email to see when more are expected in.
grizzlyblake
03-14-19, 19:50
.....
Heres Mine. 4lbs 8.4oz. Planning on getting a Dark Hour Defense magnesium 9" handguard and a lighter gas block to bring it down to about 4lbs 4.7oz.
https://i.imgur.com/K703ZCP.jpg
Pencils will in fact open up. I know, I have one.
I'm not discounting your experience, just more likely to believe it's an individual barrel based on my experience.
I have no reason to expect a heavier profile only on the end of the barrel to keep it from opening up when hot. I have seen individual barrels open up more or less, both pencil and govt profile.
For a defensive carbine it's even less of a factor, if I need more than a mag... it hit the fan.
In '65 the Air Cavalry went to Ia Drang valley. They carried pencil-barrel M16 rifles. They were in almost continuous combat for 2.5 days. (I don't know how anybody survived that). I read the after-action report by Col. Moore. Nowhere did he mention any problems with M16; none relating to pencil-barrel syndrome, and indeed none of the type that appeared in '67 when the M16 was sent to Vietnam in quantity.
MountainRaven
03-14-19, 22:37
In '65 the Air Cavalry went to Ia Drang valley. They carried pencil-barrel M16 rifles. They were in almost continuous combat for 2.5 days. (I don't know how anybody survived that). I read the after-action report by Col. Moore. Nowhere did he mention any problems with M16; none relating to pencil-barrel syndrome, and indeed none of the type that appeared in '67 when the M16 was sent to Vietnam in quantity.
There are a number of malfunctions mentioned in We Were Soldiers Once... And Young, although Lt. Gen. Moore did attribute much of his men's survival to them having M16s. I don't know that the claim by Westmoreland that Moore held an XM16E1 aloft and said that the M16 was why his men survived. How much of his men's survival he chalks up purely to the XM16E1 and not to, say, them being armed thus instead of being armed with M2 Carbines or M14s or M1 rifles... is an open question.
It should probably, also, be borne in mind that many of the issues that might afflict a pencil barrel's accuracy would not apply to the fight for LZs Xray or Albany, as most of the fighting was at extremely close range. I doubt that many would have noticed it, anyway, given how much full-auto they were using.
In '65 the Air Cavalry went to Ia Drang valley. They carried pencil-barrel M16 rifles. They were in almost continuous combat for 2.5 days. (I don't know how anybody survived that). I read the after-action report by Col. Moore. Nowhere did he mention any problems with M16; none relating to pencil-barrel syndrome, and indeed none of the type that appeared in '67 when the M16 was sent to Vietnam in quantity.
We'll caveat this by saying that minute of man in close combat was more than acceptable for Ia Drang. A hit is a hit.
But for this modern course which we will say was a rather advanced patrol rifle course, you need x amount of hits in y part of target with z amount of headshots at 100ms. Steel at varied ranges and 400 meter hits. Granted 400m shots in LE is not the norm but this was to build competency that could be backed up in court. We also had to data book the rifles.
This was not a Countersniper course but not exactly patrol rifle. There were elements of precision however.
I just was not wanting to chance it on a pencil barrel nor an A1 sight.
You can call me superstitious and a pencil barrel isnt exactly like a mini 14 or whatever but on that same token the M16A2 was made as it was for a reason.
You can live a full life with a LW barrel but for most things it is not my first choice.
They are certainly comfortable but I like a little barrel thickness.
Let's futher not get confused. A stock M4 barrel isnt exactly an HBAR either. At some point you overthink and get diminishing materials.
I ask this, if barrel girth or thickness is a non-issue; why do SOCOM barrels exist?
MountainRaven
03-14-19, 23:05
You can call me superstitious and a pencil barrel isnt exactly like a mini 14 or whatever but on that same token the M16A2 was made as it was for a reason.
The M16A2 was one big mistake. All the modifications were made to help Marines score better on 500 meter quals. Except the Brunton bump and the tubular handguards (and the material changes to the polymer furniture).
ETA: Actually, the shape of the triangular handguards are probably superior to the tube-type - but I can understand why that change was made for reasons outside of firing at cardboard and paper at known ranges.
I ask this, if barrel girth or thickness is a non-issue; why do SOCOM barrels exist?
Because some people sometimes have to be able to use their M4A1 carbines as ersatz machine guns.
I ask this, if SOCOM barrels are so awesome, why doesn't the URG-I have a SOCOM contour barrel? And why did the HK416s in use with American SOF go from having the earlier heavier barrels to the lighter later barrels?
Good questions and counter-points.
Admittedly this may be some voodoo and superstition on my part but I say this also..
If we accept that hot barrels do cause spread, is it so wrong to want to stave that off if only for a while?
I have a pencil carbine. Good fun gun but simply not my first choice if I could only have one gun.
I'd also proffer that the added weight of pistons lent to slimmer 416 barrels
I'd add also that counter to why don't URGI barrels have SOCOM; why do they not have pencils?
I think the standard 6920 is the goldilocks level of "just right"
...why do SOCOM barrels exist?
Because they are proven to handle heat better, which is your point. I have two rifles with pinned 14.5 inch SOCOM barrels and both shoot amazingly well. A Colt 14.5 inch SOCOM barrels weighs only 2 oz more than a Colt 16 inch M4 barrel. Here's the kicker- because the M4 barrel has the same profile as a pencil barrel from chamber to gas block, where most of the heat is, the M4 barrel doesn't handle heat much better than a pencil barrel.
Going from a 16 inch M4 barrel to a 14.5 SOCOM for increased heat control (bigger heat sink) and better balance for just an additional 2 oz. was a no brainer for me.
Or, you could swap out the M4 barrel for a pencil barrel and shave I would guess, about 2 oz. from the rifle with little (if any) loss of heat management.
Considering how important barrel profile is to heat management, it's more efficient to save weight by lightening the furniture and optics than the barrel. An AR with a KAC quad rail, SOPMOD stock and Aimpoint M4 weighs more than the same AR with MagPul Slimline furniture and an Aimpoint Micro. As someone mentioned earlier, a light weight barrel and heavy accessories is a waste.
Dr. Bullseye
03-14-19, 23:44
If a KISS rifle is going to be used for KISS purposes, it seems to me all you need is a flashlight, a sling, and irons. I now have the Ultradyne irons and believe me I am not going back to a prism optic or a red dot. Ultradyne Mercury muzzle break replaced the Precision Arament M4-72 with no weight change. A lighter, thinner, softer handguard is nice (B5 Systems keymod) with a finger stop and sling attachment. This comes in at 6.5 pounds with no real effort to lighten anything. I plan to fix the low light problem inherent with irons with a See All Nite sight, tritium lit, adding 2.6 oz. Also ordered is a lighter but stronger light. There is no light weight barrel (this is a 16 inch barrel), no skeleton stock. Both sights weigh less than the carry handle I took off.
Gone are the Primary Arms 2.5x prism, the heavy quad rail and the heavier quad rail mounts for accessories. This probably saved 1.5 pounds all by itself. Now the rifle is so much lighter, better balanced (not as nose heavy), and so easier and quicker to move from target to target. Sure, your rifle, purpose built for a specific thing, may work better for that specialty but mine does everything and does them well enough which I see as the purpose of a KISS rifle.
I think the standard 6920 is the goldilocks level of "just right"
With the exception of barrel profile. See my post above for my thoughts on the M4 vs SOCOM vs pencil.
Moose-Knuckle
03-15-19, 04:54
I view the 6720 as a "slutty 6920” without the stupid 16" gov profile barrel that puts useless extra weight in the dumbest place.
This all day long. Never understood the allure of a 16" barrel with the notch for a DD that 99% of people will never own. If you're a clone dork roll with a 14.5" barrel. The 6720 is my KISS karbean of choice.
If a KISS rifle is going to be used for KISS purposes, it seems to me all you need is a flashlight, a sling, and irons.
I think that point is lost on most.
grizzlyblake
03-15-19, 06:34
Don't get me wrong, I like running only irons with a light. But I'd say that KISS would really be better as a FF gun with an Aimpoint in lieu of irons.
Figure something you could hand a kid to shoot for the first time or a non-shooting wife.
BCM, Sionics, etc. LW, Aimpoint micro in a fixed mount, and an Inforce WML at 12 o'clock.
Regarding the barrel profile. User Molon here has posted some very well done testing of Colt LW vs M4 vs SOCOM. I can't find the original full thread right now.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?69949-6920-have-any-advantage-over-6720/page3
RVTMaverick
03-15-19, 07:47
Heres Mine. 4lbs 8.4oz. Planning on getting a Dark Hour Defense magnesium 9" handguard and a lighter gas block to bring it down to about 4lbs 4.7oz.
https://i.imgur.com/K703ZCP.jpg
Hey JerDerv., Dude, I Dig Your SetUp, especially the Upper, with Ditching the Forward assist, I've NEVER Used 1, a Forward Assist that is, and If I had a problem with the round not going into battery, IF I couldn't push the round in using Light pressure with My Thumb on the BCG.... I Surely don't want that round going into battery anyhow!;)
Peace Jeff
Doc Safari
03-15-19, 08:50
I ask this, if barrel girth or thickness is a non-issue; why do SOCOM barrels exist?
IIRC in one of Chris Bartocci's videos he stated that standard M4's were being used more in a SAW role: troopers firing on sustained full auto during extraction or other ambush-related encounters. His contention is that the M4 just wasn't designed for such harsh firing schedules and that's what led to a thicker, beefier barrel.
The Colt 6721 I have of course started with a heavier barrel. Out of the box it was the most accurate AR I've ever owned, bar none. Even given that, I made the decision that the extra nose weight was a liability and chose to re-barrel it to 6720 specs or get rid of it. It now happily resides in my truck with its pencil barrel and all the tactical goodies. The rifle is still more than accurate enough for anything I might use it for, and the extra weight off the nose is definitely noticeable.
Doc Safari
03-15-19, 08:53
Going from a 16 inch M4 barrel to a 14.5 SOCOM for increased heat control (bigger heat sink) and better balance for just an additional 2 oz. was a no brainer for me.
Or, you could swap out the M4 barrel for a pencil barrel and shave I would guess, about 2 oz. from the rifle with little (if any) loss of heat management.
Considering how important barrel profile is to heat management, it's more efficient to save weight by lightening the furniture and optics than the barrel. An AR with a KAC quad rail, SOPMOD stock and Aimpoint M4 weighs more than the same AR with MagPul Slimline furniture and an Aimpoint Micro. As someone mentioned earlier, a light weight barrel and heavy accessories is a waste.
Balance IS an important factor, and to me the pencil barrel just balances better than anything else. I suppose the best of both worlds might be a SOCOM profile from the receiver to the FSB, then pencil barrel from FSB to muzzle.
Here’s my lightweight, rifle. I have no clue how to make photos automatically appear all big and bright like other folks.
https://imgur.com/a/v5SnvvW
BCM RECCE 16
BFH ELW barrel
15” magnesium KMR
Surefire G2X in a DD M1913 mount
T2 w/Scalarworks LEAP mount
Polymer MBUS
Padded VCAS
These days it’s even lighter and KISSier because the Aimpoint is on a pistol until I can spring for some Scalarworks irons. I’m eventually going to replace the G2X with either an M600 DF or an Arisaka 300 series. I’m not sure if I want more lumens or less weight, but either scout light would save a few ounces.
If I could do it over I’d probably go with a 14.5 ELW with a 13” rail. At the time I didn’t want to pay extra for the pin & weld, but I’d do it now for the extra handiness.
Doc Safari
03-15-19, 08:56
If a KISS rifle is going to be used for KISS purposes, it seems to me all you need is a flashlight, a sling, and irons.
I have a Colt 6520 that agrees with you. Still, in the 21st century a lightweight optic is not out of the question either for a LW KISS rifle. I would just say stick to micro RDS sights and leave the big honking reflex, Aimpoint Comp M4, Elcan, LPVO, and other heavier optics alone.
No an AR isn’t a SAW, but I think people get too hung up on it.
I like my SP1 carbine but I just don’t see it being my bae.
That said, I don’t really care for the M4 step.
really this is likely my next barrel when my barrel dies
http://riflebarrels.com/shop/drop-in-barrels/223-8-ar740-20-copy/
That or a Faxon. Unfluted for me
I suppose the best of both worlds might be a SOCOM profile from the receiver to the FSB, then pencil barrel from FSB to muzzle.
Faxon got closer to getting this right with the GUNNER barrel. Going off memory, I believe their issue has been over-gassing.
What I would be curious is the effect on barrel harmonics. I thought about getting a Colt barrel contoured essentially as you described, but I’m not sure the effect of having a .750 gas block immediately transition to pencil.
Doc Safari
03-15-19, 09:38
Faxon got closer to getting this right with the GUNNER barrel. Going off memory, I believe their issue has been over-gassing.
What I would be curious is the effect on barrel harmonics. I thought about getting a Colt barrel contoured essentially as you described, but I’m not sure the effect of having a .750 gas block immediately transition to pencil.
Wasn't the reason for beefing up the barrel from FSB to muzzle a result of soldiers bending the pencil barrel by using it as a pry bar? Or is that just one of those persistent M16 myths?
Wasn't the reason for beefing up the barrel from FSB to muzzle a result of soldiers bending the pencil barrel by using it as a pry bar? Or is that just one of those persistent M16 myths?
It is a persistent myth. After making the change to beef up the distal portion of the barrel, it was discovered that the real reason the straightness gauge wasn’t passing through the bore was fouling or a burr or some stupid crap like that at the gas port.
Brigandtwofour can tell this story better than I can.
TexasAggie2005
03-15-19, 10:02
Wasn't the reason for beefing up the barrel from FSB to muzzle a result of soldiers bending the pencil barrel by using it as a pry bar? Or is that just one of those persistent M16 myths?
Mostly myth. User Coldblue (Col. David Lutz USMC, program officer for A2 improvement) on arfcom had an epic thread of knowledge bombs.
Basically, gas port burr was building up bullet jacket material and causing the barrel straightness gauge to hang up, indicating a "bent barrel".
https://imgur.com/SzhfM0b.jpg
Doc Safari
03-15-19, 10:07
Okay we got that covered. Myth #2: It's possible to change the zero of your pencil barrel when it gets hot if you have a lot of sling tension during drills....
(Tick...tick...tick...)
(I know the answer but I'm waiting to see what people post).
TexasAggie2005
03-15-19, 10:19
So, minor thought exercise;
Take Colt's 6720 barrel; 16", carbine gas, at 1lbs 6oz stripped.
https://www.northwestfirearms.com/attachments/img_1169-jpg.422008/
Move the gas port to the midlength spot;
https://cdn3.volusion.com/j4enh.r2en5/v/vspfiles/photos/BCM-BRL-MID-16-ELW-BFH-2T.jpg?1456827038
And you have BCM's often highly recommended 16" Enhanced Lightweight Midlength barrel listed as 1lbs 6oz.
Doc Safari
03-15-19, 10:28
I was rereading this thread just now. I'm linking it because it's almost a "companion" thread to this one. I hope Greg Bell gives us a round count update soon to his 6720:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?193602-Project-Break-My-Colt-6720-(pencil-barrel)
Measuring with a micrometer cutting with a chainsaw.
So, minor thought exercise;
Take Colt's 6720 barrel; 16", carbine gas, at 1lbs 6oz stripped.
https://www.northwestfirearms.com/attachments/img_1169-jpg.422008/
Move the gas port to the midlength spot;
https://cdn3.volusion.com/j4enh.r2en5/v/vspfiles/photos/BCM-BRL-MID-16-ELW-BFH-2T.jpg?1456827038
And you have BCM's often highly recommended 16" Enhanced Lightweight Midlength barrel listed as 1lbs 6oz.
The ELW is thicker between the chamber & gas port than a regular LW barrel, and it has a continuous, gradual taper to a pencil profile near the muzzle. Also, there is no sharp shoulder on the gas block journal for a handguard cap. BCM alledges the shoulder-free journal improves harmonics. BCM does make a regular LW barrel as well, which I believe would be what you’re thinking of.
Not trying to start an argument, just a discussion.
If there were a natural disaster and you had to walk 60 miles to the next town with all your other gear, would you still opt for the heavier weapon?
Having to hump the bush in the hills around my ranch is what got me into lighter and lighter weight to begin with (why I no longer own AK's to be frank).Having hiked up mountains with my gear and an AK, FAL and an RPK on different occasions. Would I go 60 miles with a 6920 vs 6720? Sure! 6.95lbs vs 6.2lbs. Not sure that's even a noticeable difference. Even 6721 at 7.3lbs
Doc Safari
03-15-19, 11:50
Having hiked up mountains with my gear and an AK, FAL and an RPK on different occasions. Would I go 60 miles with a 6920 vs 6720? Sure! 6.95lbs vs 6.2lbs. Not sure that's even a noticeable difference. Even 6721 at 7.3lbs
You could be right. ANY rifle after that distance will be heavy. The weight difference is most noticeable at the range, and I have to admit it's as much about BALANCE as weight. I find the pencil barreled carbines to be balanced better with the center of the weight further back and more importantly they are less nose heavy. I find myself steadier when firing offhand or without a rest if I'm using a carbine with a pencil barrel. The M4 profile is managaeable, but I found the HBAR to be balanced all wrong.
It's not the weight so much as balance to me as well. The M4 isn't too heavy, it just puts all the weight up front where it does the least good for heat and rigidity and the worst for making it front heavy. Unless you want more muzzle weight for shooting from fixed positions on a KD range and don't want to have to change the mounts on all your M203.
No an AR isn’t a SAW, but I think people get too hung up on it.
I like my SP1 carbine but I just don’t see it being my bae.
That said, I don’t really care for the M4 step.
really this is likely my next barrel when my barrel dies
http://riflebarrels.com/shop/drop-in-barrels/223-8-ar740-20-copy
That or a Faxon. Unfluted for me
With the amount of rounds you say you put downrange, wouldn't that SS barrel wear out a lot quicker than say a chrome lined one? Especially for $500 (does it come with a set of lips too? ;) )
One more up vote for the 6720. I don't think I've ever said to myself, "man, I wish this rifle were heavier." (That's what the Garand is for!) Also seriously dig the Scalarworks mount for the T1. Weighs virtually nothing at 1.65 ounces and yet it is tough as a tank.
With the amount of rounds you say you put downrange, wouldn't that SS barrel wear out a lot quicker than say a chrome lined one? Especially for $500 (does it come with a set of lips too? ;) )
Wasn’t my rounds. They were free for me.
And I just like Lilja. It’s a toss between this or Faxon. Life is too short not to have fun.
If Colt sold their CCU barrels individually (do they?) I might look at them too. But My barrel isn’t dead yet.
ETA CCUs are LWs. No thanks. Centurion Recce also a consideration
Wasn’t my rounds. They were free for me.
And I just like Lilja. It’s a toss between this or Faxon. Life is too short not to have fun.
If Colt sold their CCU barrels individually (do they?) I might look at them too. But My barrel isn’t dead yet.
I don't believe they do. However, I was looking around last night online and the Sionics LW mid-length barrel would essentially be the same thing.
Like I've said in a couple of threads on here, I really wish Colt would offer an OEM version of the CCU or sell just the no-frills upper of it (like they do with the 6720CK-NHG, basically the same but not a mid-length).
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