Post Election "Price Gouging" UPDATE pg. 3 [Archive]

MisterWilson

11-07-08, 18:27

I'm getting really tired of people bitching & moaning over the spike in gun/ammo/accessory prices.

Literally overnight the demand has gone through the roof. The supply has remained the same, already strained to begin with, and as a result of which the cost has risen, largely matching the rate of the demand, if only for the time being.

I'd heard that sometime last week, the distributor RSR had approximately 5,500 stripped lower receivers of various makes. Monday, they were down to ~3,500, by Wednesday morning they were out.
(Imagine the poor soul handling the bound book!)

Think about that.

We're witnessing a boom the likes of which hasn't been in a long time, if at all. Things are getting nuts, this is obvious. However to stoop to calling for boycotts or calling them "gougers" is a bit much. They're not selling life-saving medicine. They're not the only gas station on the way out of a disaster stricken wasteland. They are in the business of supplying a commodity, one of which that everyone and their mother just went scrambling for when the election results came back.

This is pure, undiluted capitalism. The companies charging too much will come back down as their demand subsides, in the meanwhile, MORE POWER TO THEM!

Get good while the gettin's good!

BIG FAT ETA:

Price Gouging: Noun, Picing above the market price when no alternative retailer is available.

Razorhunter

11-07-08, 18:36

Hey, if you're cool with paying more, that's fine, but I'm sticking with all my dealers who haven't looked at this as an opportunnity to jack prices up.

MisterWilson

11-07-08, 18:50

As would I. It's our objective to find the best deal, it's a dealer's objective to make the most money for their wares. As I said elsewhere, thing will settle down soon, but to someone, somewhere, S&B .223 is worth $995 a case.

mark5pt56

11-07-08, 19:01

I have what I need, I would hope that most do as well.

Concerning the "price gouging" "Capitalism" Call it what you want, but, I do not care for the dealers that artificially jack the prices up.

CleverNickname

11-07-08, 20:14

But since the demand has gone through the roof since Tuesday, a price increase is hardly artificial. If a store had started to charge $30/mag for a PMAG a month ago, they wouldn't have had too many buyers. But now...it's the old supply/demand equation. It's not complicated.

AwaySooner

11-07-08, 20:29

What's the hurry? In a few more months when everybody is broke and lost their job, you can buy as many PMags as you want for a good price.

As you can see, I obviously stockpile before the election. Thanks Grant. :D

Robb Jensen

11-07-08, 20:34

Cold Zero

11-07-08, 20:57

I was in a gun store tonight. I saw the last A.R. go out the door. Prices have risen $300 this week on Bushmasters and the wait for a civy compliant one is now 8 weeks. All A.K.'s were also gone. The place looked like a deli during the morning rush. Owner was predicting that B.M. could be $1,950 in a few months. They are currently going for $1,700 in other stores that still had a few. Shocking.:eek:

If Obama were to be assasinated , there would be rioting that would make the O.J. riots look like a picnic.:eek:

Slater

11-07-08, 21:09

I guess you could call it the "immediate post-election hysteria". Once the initial shock wears off (in a few weeks or maybe months), hopefully folks will settle down a bit.

The Crossroads/Small Arms Review show is coming up December 5-7 in Phoenix (where I live). I'm sure that it will be a bloodbath, especially around the tables that sell any kind of AR/AK system or mags.

mark5pt56

11-07-08, 21:19

About Feb-Mar time frame, you will see the ee loaded with wts items. Especially after mama needs the kids Christmas bills paid and she finds out that you are sitting on an inflated piece of hardware that needs the air let out to fit in the mailing box.

GastonG-NoVa

11-07-08, 21:57

Me either, those types of dealers should die in a fire.

There is an especially hot part of hell that is reserved for them and the child lovers......in that order!!

Already stocked up, thank you Bernie!!

MisterWilson

11-07-08, 22:04

There is an especially hot part of hell that is reserved for them and the child lovers......in that order!!

Already stocked up, thank you Bernie!!

Is that next to the ring of hell reserved for the people who wait until the last second to buy supplies they think they "need" then complain about the price when the ten people behind them are willing to pay more for that "need".

:rolleyes:

Honu

11-07-08, 22:57

to me asking fair price and gouging someone are two dif things !!

scottsdale gun club is all retail but its a nice place with lots in stock you pay more ? if you go there

but I guess in your eyes then when a disaster hits those that charge $4 for a small bottle of water is OK in your book :)

as I say KARMA

MisterWilson

11-07-08, 23:44

but I guess in your eyes then when a disaster hits those that charge $4 for a small bottle of water is OK in your book :)

See my signature line & learn to differentiate between critical necessities and want-based commodities.

Charging $1,000 per case of ammo right now is more akin to charging $4 for water at a concert in which stupid hippies forgot to bring their own rather than to folks exiting Nawlins during Katrina.

Honu

11-08-08, 00:36

:) I hear you but I guess to me its still gouging in my book :)

or maybe I guess its more about what they really are !!!

just like everyone in this election it really brings out the REAL in people

in a hurricane you can get water else where in the world or US but when all else are out who cares how many retailers there are !!!!

again they are free to do this in this great country but also we are free to blacklist em !

and I do agree those who buy at this price feed the beasts and should have their head checked ! ;)

austinN4

11-08-08, 02:04

So let me get this straight - if your house goes up in value, say 20%, you should still sell it to me for cost plus 5% as that is a more reasonable margin, even though other houses in your neighborhood are selling for more?

12131

11-08-08, 02:11

Bunch of whiners, waiting 'til the last minute, then panic buy. Too bad.:rolleyes:

556

11-08-08, 02:48

Me either, those types of dealers should die in a fire.

So if yesterday I could replace certain sold rifles with ease @ a 12% mark up and today I cannot replace certain sold rifles and no delivery date in sight.

I should die in a fire cause the mark up went to 35 or 40%, or even to MSRP?

I doubt you would make it as a shop owner or manager!!!!

It is not price gouging if the item cannot be restocked within a resonable time frame. Supply & demand always determines price.

Dave L.

11-08-08, 04:44

I have what I need, I would hope that most do as well.

Concerning the "price gouging" "Capitalism" Call it what you want, but, I do not care for the dealers that artificially jack the prices up.

I'm with you, even after I finish my next upper I'll have 5 complete AR's and almost 100 mags, but I wont pay crazy prices just because I can afford it. I'll also refrain from buying from any company who artificially jacks up their prices regardless of an AWB.

The firearm industry as a whole should be more concerned with staying in business for the next 100 years rather than the next 100 days.

Iraqgunz

11-08-08, 08:25

Dave,

Glad to see you back around. I agree with you 100%. Just because I can afford 30.00 PMAGS, doesn't mean that I am going to buy them. I have "enough" AR's for the moment and about 50 mags so I am GTG.

What I don't understand is why they are jacking the prices up on the mags though. They paid xxx amount for the mags and for the most part they were sitting on the shelves. Now they are a "hot" commodity so they need to raise the prices? Am I missing something? I am all for capitalism and people making money, but damn. I know people were pissed when speculators and other factors drove up gas prices, so they should be equally as mad now.

I'm with you, even after I finish my next upper I'll have 5 complete AR's and almost 100 mags, but I wont pay crazy prices just because I can afford it. I'll also refrain from buying from any company who artificially jacks up their prices regardless of an AWB.

The firearm industry as a whole should be more concerned with staying in business for the next 100 years rather than the next 100 days.

Dave L.

11-08-08, 08:31

Dave,

Glad to see you back around. I agree with you 100%. Just because I can afford 30.00 PMAGS, doesn't mean that I am going to buy them. I have "enough" AR's for the moment and about 50 mags so I am GTG.

What I don't understand is why they are jacking the prices up on the mags though. They paid xxx amount for the mags and for the most part they were sitting on the shelves. Now they are a "hot" commodity so they need to raise the prices? Am I missing something? I am all for capitalism and people making money, but damn. I know people were pissed when speculators and other factors drove up gas prices, so they should be equally as mad now.

I think it's just greed-
I'm still thinking about getting 2 6920s for investment purposes- but not if the price goes up.
Check your PM's.

RogerinTPA

11-08-08, 08:56

Agreed. If you haven't been stocking up in the last year or so, you are way behind the power curve. It will only get worse as Jan 21st gets closer. You are at the mercy of these despicable gun merchants. There are some good deals out there, but do your homework. As someone said earlier, around the December time frame, the WTS forum activity will increase dramatically.

I have what I need, I would hope that most do as well.

Concerning the "price gouging" "Capitalism" Call it what you want, but, I do not care for the dealers that artificially jack the prices up.

austinN4

11-08-08, 09:13

Guys, for the most part, it is the panic buyers that are driving up the prices. You know, the ones that buy up every Pmag in sight so there are none left at your favorite store when you want a couple. If it weren't for the panic buyers prices would still rise, but at a slower pace the way they always do.

Nobody is forcing you to buy gun parts or ammo. It isn't the same thing as the gas you need to get to work everyday where you don't have a choice. But look at some other things - take food for instance, something we must have to live.

When there is a super bean crop the pice of beans goes down. Farmers will store beans rather than sell them in order to lower the available inventory. And when the bean crop is poor, bean prices shoot up due to low availability and the farmer with beans in storage gets rich. Nobody is screaming about that.

When coffee beans go up at the wholesale level you will see retailers marking their existing inventory up even though they bought it at a lower price. The same thing for sugar and just about everything else. Why not guns?

And when a collector stamp sells at a high price at acution, every one with that stamp in inventory will rasie their prices accordingly.

And when some fool pays way too much for the house down the street, it become a the new "comp" (comparable) in your neighborhood and others will price their homes accordingly and the county will raise your property taxes based on the new comp even though you didn't sell your house.

I believe I would be crazy to buy at the current prices, and prices may even go higher, but I believe prices will come down as inventory and availability go up when the panic buyers exhust thier cash and credit. But others believe there will never be another gun so they are buying up everything in sight. That's what makes markets and market bubbles.

If you want to explore how markets work, read up about the "tulip mania": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania .

jaydoc1

11-08-08, 10:23

And let's not forget one very imporant thing. People are buying like crazy because they are thinking there isn't going to be a tomorrow in terms of them being able to buy these weapons. What would that mean to you if selling those weapons is what put food in your kids' mouths?

Surely there are dealers who believe the same as many gun buyers do. Wouldn't you feel pressured to make money while you can today in case you couldn't make it tomorrow? We're talking about our expensive hobby being at risk. But the dealers' future livelihood is at risk.

CleverNickname

11-08-08, 12:24

What I don't understand is why they are jacking the prices up on the mags though. They paid xxx amount for the mags and for the most part they were sitting on the shelves. Now they are a "hot" commodity so they need to raise the prices? Am I missing something?

They're pricing their product so that the people that need the product the most will be the original purchasers. For example, I've got what I consider enough PMAGs, so I haven't bought any in awhile. But if I found some place that was still selling them for $12-15/mag (what I'm guessing you'd consider "fair") then sure, I'd probably buy a bunch. Not for myself, but to resell. People are willing to pay much more than that. But if the seller prices his magazines at what people are willing to pay for them, he's not leaving money on the table. Someone will be getting market price for the magazines, so the original seller might as well be the one to get it.

Here's another example: Let's say there's a hurricane and people are evacuating. A hotel owner normally prices his rooms at $100/night. But because he has so much demand for rooms all of a sudden, he raises his price to $200/night. How does this help? The hotel owner's costs haven't gone up. It helps because the people who need it most will end up with a room. If someone gets to the hotel first, and it was still $100/night, they might get two rooms, one for mom & dad and one for the kids. But if it's $200/night, they're much more likely to decide that it's not worth the money for the second room and let the kids rough it on a folding bed or the couch in the parent's room, leaving the second room for someone else who arrives later. Or someone may decide that they don't need a hotel room at all and will go stay with relatives. It may not be their first choice, but it leaves the room to people who don't have any place else to go and are thus willing to pay more for the room.

MisterWilson

11-08-08, 12:36

What I don't understand is why they are jacking the prices up on the mags though. They paid xxx amount for the mags and for the most part they were sitting on the shelves. Now they are a "hot" commodity so they need to raise the prices? Am I missing something? I am all for capitalism and people making money, but damn. I know people were pissed when speculators and other factors drove up gas prices, so they should be equally as mad now.

What does what they originally paid for their product have to do with how much they may sell it for??

Also, who "needs" magazines right now?? I know a lot of people that "want" them but that is all.

As for speculators, it's been my experience that the same people angry with them are the same ones that think we should nationalize the gas companies, because what right do they have to put their money into good investments...

How DARE they! The NERVE of a person to put their money into the right product, at the right place, at the right time...

jp0319

11-09-08, 10:58

Me personally, I saw this coming and put an M4 on layaway a month before the election. I have about 50 USGI NIB mags so I'm good. I am looking into a SBR upper but that will be a bit later. We realistically have until the middle to end of next year to begin worrying. Obama made so may promises about the war, taxes, healthcare, and the economy he will not have time to concentrate on taking our 2nd ammendment rights until late next year early 2010, IMHO.

sinister

11-09-08, 11:20

I agree this is the normal supply-and-demand system. The guys with the goods can charge what they want and somebody will buy it. If not, they sit on a glut of inventory.

It works the same whatever the commodity: rifles, ammo, oil, etc.

I don't like it, but then again I have a lot of what I already figured I wanted or needed (except some c@cksmoker bought the Armalite AR-10 Carbine I wanted out from under me).

This is what happens with gun items when a Democrat comes into office. For you youngsters who didn't have to abide by the Assault Gun Ban, things are going to become unpleasant and expensive.

zchen

11-09-08, 11:30

well, I could only afford to pay so much $ at a time so all I got before 11/4 was 3 stripped lower receivers. There's always good side and a bad side to capitalism. For me as a consumer, I'm witnessing the bad side of capitalism(again, to me as a consumer....).

I well say that seeing some dealers adjusting their prices every other day since 11/5 is a bit hard to stomach....Stag lowers going from $110 to $179 to $299, mega from $109 to $155 to to $265. But there are obviously people willing to pay for them at those price points (even multiples as witnessed at a recent show by some that post on another board I go to)

"It's not that I don't understand, it's that the world can change too fast", I forgot where I heard this, but it rings true to me.

There are dealers that did not raise their prices overnight, I'm grateful for them and will make a point to buy from them.

Robb Jensen

11-09-08, 11:49

So if yesterday I could replace certain sold rifles with ease @ a 12% mark up and today I cannot replace certain sold rifles and no delivery date in sight.

I should die in a fire cause the mark up went to 35 or 40%, or even to MSRP?

I doubt you would make it as a shop owner or manager!!!!

It is not price gouging if the item cannot be restocked within a resonable time frame. Supply & demand always determines price.

If you normally made 20% on a rifle yesterday, replaced said rifle at the same cost to you and now want to make 40% then yes you are gouging.

Apparently you haven't realized that I work for the 5th busiest gun shop in VA (w/4 full time employees) 5th busiest according to the VA State Police who handle the instant approvals.

I don't like to toot my own horn.....but sales of black rifles and their accessories went up roughly 400% since I started working at VA Arms in 2005.

The ones that beat us are Green Top Sporting Goods (in business 60 yrs), Clark Brothers (in business 57yrs), Gander Mountain and WalMart (all stores combined as a total).

There are plenty of VA Arms customers on this forum.........just ask! Ask how we do.

RB1968

11-09-08, 12:01

I did notice much higher prices at the Wanenmacher's Arms Show in Tulsa OK. yesterday. All ARs and Sub Assemblies were higher saw no full ARs for under $1,250. People were still doing a lot of buying. I saw and older H&K91 priced at $3,999.

The Ammo. guys were really busy people were hauling carts with many bulk box's of Ammo. all around the floor. Ammo. prices have always been high so I did not notice a big change. Lots of Wolf and Bear stuff at the low end with people snapping it up.

MisterWilson

11-09-08, 12:32

If you normally made 20% on a rifle yesterday, replaced said rifle at the same cost to you and now want to make 40% then yes you are gouging.

Being opportunistic, yes.

Taking advantage of a situation, sure.

Being greedy, perhaps.

But gouging? Absolutely not.

The job of a retailer isn't to be everyone's friend (though it helps), it isn't to be "fair", or to maintain prices through market changes.

A retailers job is to make as much money for his products as the market will support, and I cannot fault a store for doing so.

austinN4

11-09-08, 12:42

I well say that seeing some dealers adjusting their prices every other day since 11/5 is a bit hard to stomach....
There are dealers that did not raise their prices overnight, I'm grateful for them and will make a point to buy from them.
No disrespect, but I'll bet you don't mind seeing the gasoline prices go down almost every day. I paid $2.07 a gallon this morning. Sometimes it works for us, and sometimes it works against us, but supply and demand will also rule as it always has.

chadbag

11-09-08, 13:04

Whether or not things are price gouging I guess depends on interpretation.

Here is what I got from dictionary.reference.com

"price gouging

noun
pricing above the market price when no alternative retailer is available
"

I would put forth that since most dealers are out of PMAGs, that no alternative retailers really exist, but those that will be getting more and are taking orders for fulfillment in the coming weeks are mostly selling at or below MSRP still, so market price for PMAG is still MSRP or less so those who have raised prices now are in effect price gouging.

Once PMAGs are no longer shipping from Magpul (for whatever reason) and the supply (and potential near term supply) is in fact constrained, then Market Price may rise. But at the moment, market price has not changed.

MisterWilson

11-09-08, 14:03

Finally, a reasonable discussion on whether it is, or is not "price gouging".

Once PMAGs are no longer shipping from Magpul (for whatever reason) and the supply (and potential near term supply) is in fact constrained, then Market Price may rise. But at the moment, market price has not changed.

So what you're saying that if the supply drops off, the price may rise, but you're failing to take into account the stratospheric rise in demand.

As for the lack of Pmags at other retailers, they're still available, it'll just take a while. People are paying for the convenience of having them right now.

zchen

11-09-08, 14:45

No disrespect, but I'll bet you don't mind seeing the gasoline prices go down almost every day. I paid $2.07 a gallon this morning. Sometimes it works for us, and sometimes it works against us, but supply and demand will also rule as it always has.

I think you missed it when I wrote "There's always good side and a bad side to capitalism. For me as a consumer, I'm witnessing the bad side of capitalism(again, to me as a consumer....)." ;) edit: Or should that be "free market" instead of "capitalism", but either way, I understand why some retailers are doing what they are doing, I don't have to like it though.

However, gasoline is a necessity for almost every one. I'm not sure that is true for guns/ammo/accessories. The price/production/demand of crude oil is easy to research, not so for guns/ammo/parts.

I've decided that I'm just going to a)do some shopping around looking for acceptable prices, b)not fall into panic buying and paying more $ than I actually posses, c) write again to the president elect, my local representative, and my senator about my stance against future legislation limiting my 2nd amendment rights.

austinN4

11-09-08, 15:13

I think you missed it when I wrote "There's always good side and a bad side to capitalism. For me as a consumer, I'm witnessing the bad side of capitalism(again, to me as a consumer....)."

However, gasoline is a necessity for almost every one. I'm not sure that is true for guns/ammo/accessories. The price/production/demand of crude oil is easy to research, not so for guns/ammo/parts.
Yeah, sorry, I used you to make a point and shouldn't have as you did say both good and bad.

Actually, what I don't hear people talking about at all is that the increases in gasoline were steeper relative to the price of crude than have been the decreases relative to the price of crude. People should be PO'd about this but it seems lost in the noise of the election along with illegal immigration.

In my area, regular unleaded topped out around $4.00, maybe $4.50. IIRC, and crude topped out around $150 and is now around $60. Looks to me like crude came down way more than gasoline has, but I could be wrong.

12oreo

11-09-08, 16:24

If you normally made 20% on a rifle yesterday, replaced said rifle at the same cost to you and now want to make 40% then yes you are gouging.

Apparently you haven't realized that I work for the 5th busiest gun shop in VA (w/4 full time employees) 5th busiest according to the VA State Police who handle the instant approvals.

I don't like to toot my own horn.....but sales of black rifles and their accessories went up roughly 400% since I started working at VA Arms in 2005.

The ones that beat us are Green Top Sporting Goods (in business 60 yrs), Clark Brothers (in business 57yrs), Gander Mountain and WalMart (all stores combined as a total).

There are plenty of VA Arms customers on this forum.........just ask! Ask how we do.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm looking at buying a Glock 21SF and this week I found your prices were cheaper than any other dealer in Northern Virginia and cheaper than having one shipped to you from any other dealer that I researched.

SingleStacker45

11-09-08, 16:29

I personally sympathize with the store owners as I own my own retail store in another industry. What alot of you don't consider is the replacement cost we are faced with when prices go up. If we don't increase are prices along with our suppliers we will not have enough money to replace the inventory and pay our expenses. Lets say Magpul charges the retailer $12 this month for a mag. The retailer sells it at $16 and makes $4. Then magpul raises the price to $16 next month. All of a sudden the retailer has no profit to cover expenses after he replaces his inventory. And everybody thinks you are gouging whin you raise your price to $20 overnight. These are all hypothetical numbers but hopefully you get the idea.

Mule

Armati

11-10-08, 08:22

I went to a big gunshow in MD (of all places!) and the prices wern't that bad. There were some deals to be had. ARs of all types could be had from $1200-900 depending on maker and configuration (mostly S&W, RRA, DPMS, or Stag).

The a local TV crew was there doing a story about the national spike in gun sales. Clearly, a lot of law abiding gun owners are concerned. I think the Dems will have their work cut out for them if they make another run on the AWB.

The main thing is that we take offense on this and are proactive. This spike in gun sales is a national story. Check it out on Google News. I am pretty sure the Dems have taken at least some notice.

RB1968

11-10-08, 12:00

Yes lots of people were at the Wanemacher's Arms Show in Tulsa,Ok this past weekend, and also the local TV media and the local newspaper gave it a lot more coverage then ever before since the first AW Ban was in affect.
Also the media was at some local Firearm stores in Tulsa and talked to people, many first time handgun buyers who said they were worried that they soon could not buy a handgun for self protection.:mad:

MisterWilson

11-10-08, 13:18

Courtesy of Chadnutz @ arfcom:

http://tamor.us/members-rigs/albums/album28/Mags_Supply_and_Demand.jpg

markm

11-10-08, 13:32

These panic buying peckerheads make me nervous for this reason...

I get to thinking about the bushmaster effect. Ramp up production, and to hell with quality control!

austinN4

11-10-08, 15:39

Courtesy of Chadnutz @ arfcom
Great flow chart! Thanks for posting it.

BigJim #1-8

11-10-08, 15:58

I was at Tulsa Gun Show this weekend also.
I saw Bushmaster,DPMS,Rock River etc in all configurations fro between $700 & $1000.There were some Colts stacked in boxes on one table that were marked up to $1700-$2400.People looked at them & walked away grumbling about gouging.There were plenty of AR's being sold at reasonable prices.
Ammo was being carried,wheeled & whatever means to get it to the buyers car.
I heard one ammo dealer had 5 pallets of .223 friday & it was all sold by sat afternoon.Silver Bear?? or some brand was selling for $260.00 per 1000.
People were buying,but weren't to free with their $$ if they thought they were being gouged.
A Great time was had by all.b hussein was not very popular there.

GOD BLESS OUR TROOPS!!!

RogerinTPA

11-10-08, 16:55

Nice chart mrwilson. Now if you could only put an accurate time line on it so we could use it as a measuring stick to start buying smart again. ;)

variablebinary

11-10-08, 17:12

K9-Bob

11-10-08, 17:33

RSR had 4305 DPMS lowers in stock on October 16th.....on November 4th they were sold out. That is a lot of lowers on the market.

MisterWilson

11-10-08, 18:02

I dont mind the dealer who gets guns, ammo and a mags at a higher price from the distributer or gun maker and passes that cost on to the consumer.

I have no problem with this. A man has to eat and make a profit. His costs go up, and so do ours. Not rocket science

However, this is very different from a dealer who goes into his existing inventory and retags everything at a higher price just because. Anyone I sense doing that will NEVER get my money again and I will inform everyone I know of their shady, customer screwing antics.

Sure, its within their rights to do whatever they want, however, its my right to get the word out and never shop there again. CTD for example will never see a dime of mine again.

So if I purchase ammo from a manufacturer for $1 and sell it for $2, that's okay, but if because the market for ammo will support $3 and I'm still getting it for $1, that's somehow wrong if I raise my price to meet it? And if I'm not willing to maintain my under-market price and be perpetually sold out, that's wrong as well?

If you think that's "Shady" then you think capitalism is shady and should very much enjoy our new president elect. I'm sure he'll share your sentiments on fairness and do everything in his power to insure that balance is maintained regardless of any changes in supply & demand.
(S&D, what antiquated ideas!)

MisterWilson

11-10-08, 18:30

RSR had 4305 DPMS lowers in stock on October 16th.....on November 4th they were sold out. That is a lot of lowers on the market.

I'd heard about that. Can you imagine the guy who had to manage the bound book for RSR!?

:eek:

variablebinary

11-10-08, 18:30

So if I purchase ammo from a manufacturer for $1 and sell it for $2, that's okay, but if because the market for ammo will support $3 and I'm still getting it for $1, that's somehow wrong if I raise my price to meet it? And if I'm not willing to maintain my under-market price and be perpetually sold out, that's wrong as well?

That's dense. If you think that's "Shady" then you think capitalism is shady and should very much enjoy our new president elect. I'm sure he'll share your sentiments on fairness and do everything in his power to insure that balance is maintained regardless of any changes in supply & demand.
(S&D, what antiquated ideas!)

You may not have a problem with dealers retagging existing inventory but I do.

I speak with my dollars and shop at dealers who dont exploit and **** over their customers. I speak to my friends and co-workers and on forums and put the word out on who is exploiting the political climate. That too is capitalism and a free market.

Storydude

11-10-08, 18:33

I dont mind the dealer who gets guns, ammo and a mags at a higher price from the distributer or gun maker and passes that cost on to the consumer.

I have no problem with this. A man has to eat and make a profit. His costs go up, and so do ours. Not rocket science

However, this is very different from a dealer who goes into his existing inventory and retags everything at a higher price just because. Anyone I sense doing that will NEVER get my money again and I will inform everyone I know of their shady, customer screwing antics.

Sure, its within their rights to do whatever they want, however, its my right to get the word out and never shop there again. CTD for example will never see a dime of mine again.

Gas stations do what you describe daily....do you stop buying from the gas stations?

A vendor raising prices to the current market level is good busniness sense. If he DOES NOT raise his prices, he very quickly becomes a vendor with NO stock, but he's got low prices. He could have Pmags for a buck...but if he has none to sell, what good does that do the vendor?

By raising prices to what the market will bear, he assures himself a comfortable stock level, and can offer a product for sale longer.

I see a whole lot of people in this thread bitching about Economics that needed to pay attention in HS Econ 101.

MisterWilson

11-10-08, 18:35

You may not have a problem with dealers retagging existing inventory but I do.

I speak with my dollars and shop at dealers who dont exploit and **** over their customers. I speak to my friends and co-workers and on forums and put the word out on who is exploiting the political climate. That too is capitalism and a free market.

You act as if dealers have a responsibility to price their wares based somehow on what they paid for it, rather than fair market value.

They don't.

You're also confusing "adjusting prices to market value" for "****ing over".

****ing over would be gouging. Gouging would be if they alone have the last case of ammo/batch of stripped lowers, they do not. There will be more ammo, there will be more lowers. If however you want it RIGHT NOW, then I think that having them available at the market price and in stock would be preferable to below market value and sold out. (Because it faaaaair, because they ooooooowe it to us./End annoying Michael Savage goat voice)

ETA: And this childish collective stamping of the feet and crying foul is just that, childish. You wouldn't any sooner boycott these companies than you would pass up on $10 NIB Glock mags or $5 Pmags, so please spare us your empty indignant stands on principal. Your principals stand directly at odds with capitalism and can safely be ignored.

Dogface

11-10-08, 18:42

You act as if dealers have a responsibility to price their wares based somehow on what they paid for it, rather than fair market value.

They don't.

You're also confusing "adjusting prices to market value" for "****ing over".

****ing over would be gouging. Gouging would be if they alone have the last case of ammo/batch of stripped lowers, they do not. There will be more ammo, there will be more lowers. If however you want it RIGHT NOW, then I think that having them available at the market price and in stock would be preferable to below market value and sold out. (Because it faaaaair, because they ooooooowe it to us./End annoying Michael Savage goat voice)

ETA: And this childish collective stamping of the feet and crying foul is just that, childish. You wouldn't any sooner boycott these companies than you would pass up on $10 NIB Glock mags or $5 Pmags, so please spare us your empty indignant stands on principal. Your principals stand directly at odds with capitalism and can safely be ignored.

Mr Wilson is on a mission!

variablebinary

11-10-08, 18:47

Gas stations do what you describe daily....do you stop buying from the gas stations?

A vendor raising prices to the current market level is good busniness sense. If he DOES NOT raise his prices, he very quickly becomes a vendor with NO stock, but he's got low prices. He could have Pmags for a buck...but if he has none to sell, what good does that do the vendor?

By raising prices to what the market will bear, he assures himself a comfortable stock level, and can offer a product for sale longer.

I see a whole lot of people in this thread bitching about Economics that needed to pay attention in HS Econ 101.

I see you're another one that doesnt think this so-called free market is a full duplex scenario.

Any vendor is free to jack up prices to their hearts content. It's my right as the consumer to bitch as loud as I want, out them publicaly, and deter people from shopping their because a gun that was $800 yesterday is suddenly $1800 today.

Its also my right in a free market to direct people to vendors who arent running a scam

Vendor X jacks up prices, feel free to shop there, but guess what, Vendor Y hasnt raised their prices at all, so give them your money first. They arent exploiting you and trying to cash in on a quick buck at your expense. If an when Vendor X drops prices, punish them for trying to punish you, and dont give them any more of your money for a looonng time

Free market, works both ways. If a Vendor artificially inflates prices expect to be called on it. The gun community is very small, and when this whole thing settles, I promise you no dealer wants to be on the shit list.

Storydude

11-10-08, 19:15

I see you're another one that doesnt think this so-called free market is a full duplex scenario.

Any vendor is free to jack up prices to their hearts content. It's my right as the consumer to bitch as loud as I want, out them publicaly, and deter people from shopping their because a gun that was $800 yesterday is suddenly $1800 today.

Its also my right in a free market to direct people to vendors who arent running a scam

Vendor X jacks up prices, feel free to shop there, but guess what, Vendor Y hasnt raised their prices at all, so give them your money first. They arent exploiting you and trying to cash in on a quick buck at your expense. If an when Vendor X drops prices, punish them for trying to punish you, and dont give them any more of your money for a looonng time

Free market, works both ways.

Only problem with what you offer is thus:
When Vendor Y runs out of stock because he was selling at 75% of market value, then HIS vendor now raises prices up to FMV, Vendor Y now has to pay more, with less money than Vendor X who SAW the raise in FMV and acted accordingly.

Therefore now Vendor X can buy more stock than Vendor Y, and Vendor Y now has to raise his prices OVER FMV, to make up the profit lost when the Dist. prices went up. Making Vendor Y have to work harder to make less money to refill his war chest of inventory.

Try arguing sales figures with me some more..I run a successful small electronics business, and I'll ASSURE you..If I don't raise prices to meed FMV, when it comes time to restock, I can ASSURE you my Distribuitors see the spike in FMV, and raise prices themselves.

Again, you can shop anywhere you want(for now) and try and find the lowest prices. But I can also assure you that when you buy from the lowest price bidder, you usually make up for it with poor Customer service, long wait times and even run the risk that this vendor might not even be able to FILL those orders at the cost offered.

How many websites do you know of where stock quantity numbers are attached to the sales pages? Only ones I know of are Grafs, brownells, wideners and a few others.

Now, what happens to Vendor Y that didn't have his page updated and 1000 orders come in for mags he cannot fill? He must buy them at FMV from his vendors, and if the prices are higher than he planned on, Vendor y now faces a tough decision. Buy less product for more money, or lose money trying to keep prices at the same level. If he is an honorable dealer, he'll eat the extra cost(maybe bankrupting him) and fufill those orders at the selling price.

If vendor Y chooses that route, Vendor Y goes out of business.

Again, Gas stations do this daily. Price X is what they paid, and Price Y is what they sell for. If local prices go up, the Selling price goes up, REGARDLESS of what they PAID for the gas in the ground already.

big difference between gas stations and what Firearms dealers are doing is you NEED gas...you don't NEED 100 Pmags. therefore firearms parts/accessories are Luxury items in the grand scheme of things, and those dealers are free to charge what the hell ever they want.

Think Firearms prices are high? Try pricing fine Jewlery. Diamond prices have tripled in the last 6 months...yet I don't hear people bitching about those prices, because there is not a big demand.

I'll type this slowly for you to understand.

ARTIFICALLY HIGH PRICES HELP THE INDUSTRY AS A WHOLE TO KEEP SUPPLY FLOWING

Storydude

11-10-08, 19:20

Oh and one more thing.

TRY and find a vendor with Pmags in STOCK. Centerfire, Brownells, Wideners, DPMS, Copes, Grafs, CTD and many others are SOLD OUT.

So, because you cannot physically GET mags is it "gouging" and "Free Market" to raise the prices on a depleted supply to assure you, as a vendor, FMV? Or should you just keep your prices the same and sell out in 30 min then not be able to sell ANYTHING untill you wait for restock.....which might be 6onths out at this point.

Hmmm?

MisterWilson

11-10-08, 19:35

Any vendor is free to jack up prices to their hearts content. It's my right as the consumer to bitch as loud as I want, out them publicaly, and deter people from shopping their because a gun that was $800 yesterday is suddenly $1800 today.

Its also my right in a free market to direct people to vendors who arent running a scam

Vendor X jacks up prices, feel free to shop there, but guess what, Vendor Y hasnt raised their prices at all, so give them your money first. They arent exploiting you and trying to cash in on a quick buck at your expense. If an when Vendor X drops prices, punish them for trying to punish you, and dont give them any more of your money for a looonng time

Free market, works both ways.

You're correct, that is your right. It's also my right to try and remind you and others how childish you may sound.

Also, you're grossly incorrect in your defining the raising of prices a scam. You aren't forced, coerced or otherwise conned into buying things at their peak of demand, nor are you receiving less than what was agreed upon. Scamming, they are not.

I can just hear the old world street vendor now...

"Step right up folks, I have seen the rain coming and I've got your umbrellas right here, get 'em while they're hot!"

"But you can't charge that much, that other guy was selling them for half as much."

"You're very right son but if you'll be so kind as to notice, I have them and he does not, and that storm looks mighty close and fierce, so either get one while you can or please get out of the way, there are folks with money and smiles behind you and you're blocking their view."

"Well that's not fair...*goes off and pouts*..."

Gunrider

11-10-08, 19:42

Spoke to LMT today.
They have 24 hour shifts building guns.

I asked if I should order now.
They said, "Every day you don't order, 1200 other people are."

I ordered two complete lowers to go with my two extra LMT M-4 Uppers.

byatacko

11-10-08, 20:52

Let me put it this way. Sure, retailers have every right to increase prices to deal with increased demand. It isn't illegal, I suppose.

But after the mania subsides, and the dust settles, and prices go back to normal, let me say this:

I WILL NOT GIVE MY BUSINESS TO ANY RETAILERS WHO INCREASED PRICES TO CAPITALIZE ON THE MANIA.

I will also direct and influence people to avoid those retailers as well. And I will have them tell people that they know.
Taking advantage of this community eliminates goodwill.

MisterWilson

11-10-08, 21:06

It isn't illegal, I suppose.

This statement is exactly what's wrong with you and everyone else who's getting butthurt over the raise in demand.

Your statement reads as if "It isn't illegal, but I kinda wish it was". What in the hell is wrong with you folks, do you realize what you're saying? Who did you vote for again?

BushmasterFanBoy

11-10-08, 21:15

Jim D

11-10-08, 21:20

at the end of the day, the dealers are there to make money.

it may end up being that an AWB comes at us like a freight train....then dealers will have to try and make a living on a smaller market. (sporting guns and such, till they grab those, too)

i really can't blame people for trying to make hay while the sun shines...despite the fact that it's gonna cost me more now. it's my own dumb-ass fault for waiting until now to get it.

while i may not be excited about having to pay a higher price for what i want...it's capitalism and basic economics. If you're in the business of making money and people will pay more for something...why sell it for less?

i work for a dealer, and can usually get stuff at cost....trouble is, the store i work for is selling ever AR they can get their hands on...so I gotta wait till demand falls or supply increases before they'll sell me one for cheap....it sucks, but i can't blame em.

MisterWilson

11-10-08, 21:34

It sucks, but i can't blame em.

This is the perfect sentiment, it does suck and you cannot blame them.

Other folks, more ignorant or naive, think it suck and can/will blame them...

bkb0000

11-10-08, 21:45

beh... i don't blame dealers for upping prices, and i don't blame people for not liking it. I dont blame people for panicking and buying everything up, and i dont blame people who think things will cool off and want to wait to buy later, and i don't blame people for getting pissed at each other.

I blame B. Hussein O. for being the dick sucker that caused it all to begin with.

MisterWilson

11-10-08, 21:50

Why pay higher prices?
Just shop around for the lower prices and the companies that offer the lower prices will realize that they are getting business.
The companies with the higher prices won't get as many customers. If they want more customers they will be forced to earn their customers with lower prices, better products and so forth.
Speak with your wallet. Don't pay the higher prices, and the prices will come down as the demand falls.

I really don't understand why this has turned into such a flame fest.

This is the correct response folks.

There really is no reason to get so extreme as to call for boycotts & protests unless you're so dense as to think that capitalism is some warm & fuzzy thing that has to do with fairness or doing what jives with the minority of folks who find themselves with their dicks in their hands wondering why the wind is blowing in a new direction.

You could ask literally every member here "What do you you think the buying public will do if BHO is elected" and everyone one of us here would know that some crazy market forces are coming down the line, ESPECIALLY in an already high-demand market.

Some of you folks are standing out in the rain, shaking your fist at the clouds...

byatacko

11-10-08, 23:54

This statement is exactly what's wrong with you and everyone else who's getting butthurt over the raise in demand.

Your statement reads as if "It isn't illegal, but I kinda wish it was". What in the hell is wrong with you folks, do you realize what you're saying? Who did you vote for again?

Do us all a favor and tell me which dealer you represent. Are you brave enough to come out and admit it or will you hide behind your username and repeat the same old laissez-faire line over and over again?

MisterWilson

11-11-08, 00:10

If I worked for Cheaper than Dirt would it matter? Attack the arguements, not the person.

Buck

11-11-08, 00:14

The Colt LE distributor cost on a LE 6920 just shot up almost $300 per unit… Ouch…

B

Buck

11-11-08, 00:17

Do us all a favor and tell me which dealer you represent. Are you brave enough to come out and admit it or will you hide behind your username and repeat the same old laissez-faire line over and over again?

byatacko,

MisterWilson is simply expressing his opinion... One I happen to agree with... Throttle it back a little...

B

MisterWilson

11-11-08, 00:24

For what it's worth, I will as well. It's hard not to get caught up in a good discussion on what I consider politically relevant issues.

byatacko

11-11-08, 00:42

byatacko,

MisterWilson is simply expressing his opinion... One I happen to agree with... Throttle it back a little...

B

I just cleaned my M4. I'm calmer now. Don't mean to alienate myself as a new member so soon. I guess y'all know how I feel and I know how you all feel. Shake hands Mr. Wilson? :)

hossb7

11-11-08, 02:11

Someone probably said this, but if you don't like the prices don't shop there.

ZDL

11-11-08, 02:21

User Name

11-11-08, 05:11

Buy some $40 Pmags in the name of capitalism. Heck if people are willing to pay out the ass let them.

austinN4

11-11-08, 06:47

Buck

11-11-08, 07:07

I just cleaned my M4. I'm calmer now. Don't mean to alienate myself as a new member so soon. I guess y'all know how I feel and I know how you all feel. Shake hands Mr. Wilson? :)

For what it's worth, I will as well. It's hard not to get caught up in a good discussion on what I consider politically relevant issues.

No harm done... Just keeping the peace... :cool:

B

markm

11-11-08, 07:34

I'll type this slowly for you to understand.

Type it as slow as you want....

I'm still going to read it fast! :p

JaketheSnake

11-11-08, 08:48

ls6man

11-11-08, 09:03

MisterWilson, you are valiant in your efforts to teach Economics 101 (Supply & Demand) but some folks just don't want to hear it no matter how locigal it is. But it really is simple, as you, and others, have said.

1. Guns, ammo and parts are luxury items for most of us, which means our spending on them is discretionary. We don't have to have them, we want them.

2. Dealers with available guns, ammo and parts are free to price them however they want and we are free to buy them or not - our choice, nobody is forcing us, and nobody should get mad - it is a free market.

We can shop around or we can just not buy at all and wait for better prices, which may or may not come, depending on events. But again, it is our choice. And if you never want to buy from a dealer again that is also your choice.

3. If the normal price on an item is P, and due to shortages of that item dealers are selling that item for P+ 10% to 20% they will still get sales. But if there are dealers that are trying to sell the item for P+ 50% or more they will likely get few to no sales.

Again, no one is forcing you to pay P+ 50% for your luxury item, or P+ anything, for that matter. It is your choice depending on how bad you want the item.

4. The same thing is true on the down side. Say there is a glut of inventory, which lowers prices. In order to have sales, dealers will have to lower their prices to meet the new lower prices, even if the item cost them more to put in inventory a month ago. And if a dealer doesn't lower their prices to the new lower price they will also get few to no sales.

Number 3 works against buyers, but number 4 works for buyers. You may want it to work in your favor all the time but it just can't and still be a free market. Otherwise, you end up with price controls that limit prices in both directions, which, over time, lowers both quality and the number of dealers due to a lack of incentives.

ETA: I am reminded of a moving sale I held a few years ago. I had some area rungs for sale and the same guy kept coming around and offering me a lower price, which I would not accept. Finally he said to me, "I can buy those cheaper somewhere else." I told him, "That's great, by all means you should go there and buy them." To which he replied, "I would, but they aren't as nice as yours are." :eek: The same thing can be said for availability.

That is one of the best post I've seen to date on this whole issue...

Too bad the same guys who are spouting off about all of our Democratic ideals and how PO they are at an election result...are the same guys who will slam someone for selling their goods..which they paid for..very hypocritical...

I recently had a very bad expereince on another board (guess which one..lol) for listing MY AK's which I paid for..for what I was comfortable with cutting them loose for..based on how hard it would be to replace them...and how desirable they are to me...

I got called all kinds of names for listing MY property for what I wanted...and apparently on that site..it depends on "who" you are...it is "ok" per the mods for some to post their "opinions" of my prices, but when I posted on a guys WTB ad a part of an IM conversation I had with him..I was locked out....A great example of people practicing our ideals...

The bottom line is we are all free to buy or not buy based on our own wants and needs..a free market society allows that and that is what we have..

If you don't like someones price (dealer or individual)...don't buy..but don't whine or bitch either if you miss out because your beliefs on what something is worth isn't what others is...

variablebinary

11-11-08, 09:30

I have what I need, I would hope that most do as well.

Concerning the "price gouging" "Capitalism" Call it what you want, but, I do not care for the dealers that artificially jack the prices up.

Me either, those types of dealers should die in a fire.

Not sure about death by flame, but they sure as hell wont see my money again, and I'll make it known to every open ear, long after this frenzy dies down, who artificially jacked the prices up

Wichard20

11-11-08, 13:01

I do not blame the seller but the consumer, if people are going to pay the inflanted price then there are going to be sellers selling at that price. Everyone got worked up about the elections yet I highly doubt we will see any legislature for a little while. There are too many pressing issues to worry about gun control. Am I stocking up? of course, but I am slowly building up my supply and purchasing from dealers with sales or items with the normal asking value. Hopefully the burst of scared consumers die down and prices will go down with it.

markm

11-11-08, 13:08

I'm stocking up on prayer rugs. You fools are all buying mags and ammo and shit!

When everyone is forced into Islam, I'm going to gouge you guys on prayer rugs!:cool:

Medicine Calf

11-11-08, 14:41

Yeah right, sugarcoat it anyway you want to, with whatever theoretical social and economic justifications added on for flavor. The blatant examples of profiteering going on since the election, is behavior that I would have to classify as morally repugnant. Fire up the Weber, LOL.

Jerm

11-11-08, 15:17

I have no issue with places who jack up their prices.If people are willing to pay...so be it.

But i most definately appreciate those who dont and they are far more likely to get my future business whenever practical.

markm

11-11-08, 15:18

This is no different than the AWB years. Cock roaches selling glock mags for over $100, etc.

12oreo

11-11-08, 15:25

I'm stocking up on prayer rugs. You fools are all buying mags and ammo and shit!

When everyone is forced into Islam, I'm going to gouge you guys on prayer rugs!:cool:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Capitalism at its best. Funny

Jay Cunningham

11-11-08, 15:31

I have been reading some of the threads here and on some other forums.

I have absolutely NO SYMPATHY for any of you who failed to act in a responsible fashion since the time of the AWB sunset. You are no different than the people who live in hurricane-prone states who never seem to buy a generator and then when the hurricane hits they boo-hoo about price gouging.

If you were caught unprepared, it is YOUR FAULT. You had time and the benefit of recent history for 20/20 hindsight. You should have already stocked up on magazines and ammunition and whatever firearms you felt that you needed.

Stupid should hurt. In this case, irresponsible should hurt financially.

RogerinTPA

11-11-08, 15:53

How true. AND remember when gun dealers were taking your extra mag that came with your fire arm and selling it to you for $50 and up, saying that manufacturer's are only shipping guns with one mag.:mad: And no, I didn't purchase during that time period. I kept the same 2 pistols, 1 shotgun, 1 Mini-14, and 1 MIA1. I couldn't stomach f--king myself by purchasing a firearm. THIS TIME, I'm well stocked!

This is no different than the AWB years. Cock roaches selling glock mags for over $100, etc.

RogerinTPA

11-11-08, 16:04

A fool and his money are lucky enough to get together in the first place. This is an oldie but a goody, "Proper planning prevents piss poor performance". If folks didn't see this one coming, especially those who lived through the first AWB, then maybe you deserve to be gouged. Those of you who are wealthy, this means you X 2:p

Buy some $40 Pmags in the name of capitalism. Heck if people are willing to pay out the ass let them.

VA_Dinger

11-11-08, 16:16

Gunrider

11-11-08, 18:03

I could NOT agree more.

If I noticed a company jack there prices immediately after the election they will NEVER see another dime of my money or support.

Even if they know they cannot replace that stock? And that an AWB might very well close them down? A store that specializes in military weapons may not get anymore.

You sound like a bunch of COmmies.
The man with the last roll of toiket paper is gonna cahrge $1000 for it.
That is what the law of supply and demand means -- wait until Barack officially cuts off Offshore drilling -- the demand for oil will skyrocket -- and you'll HATE your gas station -- but gas prices will skyrocket. And you will have to pay them because you have to drive to work.

I heard today that basically every built AR and the next eight weeks production is either sold or on order.
I expect prices will rise even further the closer we get to January 21st -- unless Barack makes some public statement about puting AWB pn the back burner.
But I don't think we'll hear that.

Razorhunter

11-11-08, 18:17

I just think it sucks that the more important informational threads on this forum don't always get this much attention..
Of course, I suppose any time an informative thread gets heated and argumentative such as this one, it DOES get the same attention!

VA_Dinger

11-11-08, 18:37

Even if they know they cannot replace that stock? And that an AWB might very well close them down? A store that specializes in military weapons may not get anymore.

You sound like a bunch of COmmies.
The man with the last roll of toiket paper is gonna cahrge $1000 for it.
That is what the law of supply and demand means -- wait until Barack officially cuts off Offshore drilling -- the demand for oil will skyrocket -- and you'll HATE your gas station -- but gas prices will skyrocket. And you will have to pay them because you have to drive to work.

I heard today that basically every built AR and the next eight weeks production is either sold or on order.
I expect prices will rise even further the closer we get to January 21st -- unless Barack makes some public statement about puting AWB pn the back burner.
But I don't think we'll hear that.

I would cool your jets a little.

So the plywood business that jacks it's prices 200-300% right before a hurricane is a good guy? I think not.

Business are free to do what ever they want, this is America. Just do not expect me to cry one tear if/when they hit hard times. If your one of us, then whether the storm with us, do not try to take advantage of it for a quick buck. It just might cost them dearly down the road.

I also seem to remember the gun industry doing very well during the last ban. They did not dry up, new products were available, etc. Nobody has showed me the world is going to end just yet.

RB1968

11-11-08, 18:38

I stopped at my local firearms store today, last time I was there was a few weeks before the election. They had 500rd box's of 5.56 Ammo. at $189 lots of the same in 20rd box's at $7.99.
A full counter of new AR15s some Sig 556s. Today all 5.56 Ammo. was gone. Not one AR or Sig left.:rolleyes: Now I am very glad I bought the ones I bought a few Months ago.:)

scottryan

11-11-08, 19:16

ARsforlife

11-11-08, 20:02

hearing prices on AR's up as much as $300. the ammo is going fast. one online site has most of what is left at sometimes double the old price, $18-$20/box.

the ones that didnt spike their prices so fast will continue to get my buisness.

all them AR's the peeps are buying and no ammo, who'd a thunk it?

lucky for me i found this site a few months ago.

:)

bkb0000

11-11-08, 22:05

stripped lowers on the auction sites have gone up 50-75%, but there's just as many available as there ever was, so that doesn't make any sense.

SoDak

11-11-08, 22:15

Prices in my neck of the woods seemed to have remained stable. The local shop has always charged a little much ($520 wasr-10's and m&p15T's for $1475), but at the very least they haven't gone up. The supply of good AR rifles seems to be drying up though. Just a few weeks ago that store had colts at pretty good prices. Heck they even had a lightly used colt A2 rifle with a gov't profile barrel for a $1000. Sure wish I would have had the money for that.

MisterWilson

11-11-08, 22:26

stripped lowers on the auction sites have gone up 50-75%, but there's just as many available as there ever was, so that doesn't make any sense.

Forgive me for asking but are you being sarcastic?

bkb0000

11-11-08, 23:08

Forgive me for asking but are you being sarcastic?

in my opinion, the price shouldn't go up until there is no longer a ready supply. i know your opinion already. i also that "what is, is."

in fact, it's my opinion that the reason there IS still a ready supply on auction sites is that the price has shot up in anticipation of demand, out pacing it, and that's why there is still a ready supply there. People like me say, "what? the same DPMS receiver that was going for $120 yesterday is now starting at $200? forget that."

so they sit, unsold.

mudrock

11-11-08, 23:35

November 2008: "Get 'em while you can! Bushmaster carbines only $1400 if you act now!"

November 2009: "WTS Bushmaster carbine, unfired, like new, $650 OBO."

Let's all sing along real nice now --

To everything (turn, turn, turn)
There is a season (turn, turn, turn)
And a time for every sucker, at least we hope

A time to buy a gun, a time to buy another
A time to buy ammo, a time to buy more
A time to buy all that shit
That you'll soon be happy to trade for a course of antibiotics
Or a few gallons of gasoline
When the US dollar isn't worth a flying **** at a rolling doughnut.

Cheney: "Reagan proved deficits don't matter."
Markets: "Hmm, we'll get back to you on that."

Gunrider

11-12-08, 02:19

I would cool your jets a little.

So the plywood business that jacks it's prices 200-300% right before a hurricane is a good guy? I think not.

Business are free to do what ever they want, this is America. Just do not expect me to cry one tear if/when they hit hard times. If your one of us, then whether the storm with us, do not try to take advantage of it for a quick buck. It just might cost them dearly down the road.

I also seem to remember the gun industry doing very well during the last ban. They did not dry up, new products were available, etc. Nobody has showed me the world is going to end just yet.

One point you're missing -- the actual gunstore (not the distributor) runs at a tiny margun -- the profit on guns is very small compared to other industries -- so if they believe these may be the LAST ARs they are every going to get, why can't they cahrge what the market will bear?

If it IS gouging then people wouldn't buy from them and they would have to lower prices

The truth is BHO is the biggest threat to AWs to come down the pike in a while, and people ARE panicking. I'm not. I bought my guns all in advance of the election day. But it was the same in Los Angeles during the LA riots -- people we terrified of being attacked/looted -- and ran to stores only to find that while t hey were drinking their Starbucks, the state had gone to a ten day wait. "I need a gun now" we'd hear them wail.
To no avail.
Now people are calling manufacturers and distribs and begging for guns NOW -- when every built AR is sold -- and they'll have to wait 6-10 weeks. If they really feel strongly enough to wait that long, they must be willing to pay.

Alaskapopo

11-12-08, 03:31

Being opportunistic, yes.

Taking advantage of a situation, sure.

Being greedy, perhaps.

But gouging? Absolutely not.

The job of a retailer isn't to be everyone's friend (though it helps), it isn't to be "fair", or to maintain prices through market changes.

A retailers job is to make as much money for his products as the market will support, and I cannot fault a store for doing so.
Gouging is exactly what it is. Its the retailers right to gouge but its still gouging. As for nationalizing the oil companies that is not a half bad idea after the raping we have been taking.
Pat

chadbag

11-12-08, 03:35

Gouging is exactly what it is. Its the retailers right to gouge but its still gouging. As for nationalizing the oil companies that is not a half bad idea after the raping we have been taking.
Pat

While I agree with you on the gouging, I hope you are not serious on the oil company bit. They have not been raping us. The price fluctuations are due to the market and external factors. Oil company margins on gasoline are low. Very low. Where they do make money is when market demand and other external factors drive the price of crude up and they own the wells where the crude comes from... You don't want to see the cost of gas if the oil companies were nationalized.

Alaskapopo

11-12-08, 04:14

While I agree with you on the gouging, I hope you are not serious on the oil company bit. They have not been raping us. The price fluctuations are due to the market and external factors. Oil company margins on gasoline are low. Very low. Where they do make money is when market demand and other external factors drive the price of crude up and they own the wells where the crude comes from... You don't want to see the cost of gas if the oil companies were nationalized.

No I am not kidding. Here in Alaska we have the oil and gas yet we pay a lot more for it than you in the lower 48 do. They price was way slower in coming down as well. The current price at the pump in my town is $3.59. They only started to lower it when their was talk about legislative investigations into price fixing. We took a ride on behalf of the oil companies and still are. I have no love for their greed.
Pat

chadbag

11-12-08, 04:22

No I am not kidding. Here in Alaska we have the oil and gas yet we pay a lot more for it than you in the lower 48 do. They price was way slower in coming down as well. The current price at the pump in my town is $3.59. They only started to lower it when their was talk about legislative investigations into price fixing. We took a ride on behalf of the oil companies and still are. I have no love for their greed.
Pat

I suspect that there is more to it. Cost of refining, paying workers more to compensate for high costs of living, higher costs to transport refined product, etc.

Alaskapopo

11-12-08, 04:28

I suspect that there is more to it. Cost of refining, paying workers more to compensate for high costs of living, higher costs to transport refined product, etc.

Well just over a year or so ago when oil was about $85 a barrel the price at the pump was $2.75 now its less than $70 a barrel and gas is $3.59 here and just over $3.00 in Anchorage. There is some greed going on.
Pat

ARsforlife

11-12-08, 04:30

I suspect that there is more to it. Cost of refining, paying workers more to compensate for high costs of living, higher costs to transport refined product, etc.

is that why gasoline traded in the $1.30 range on the wholesale market yesterday?

:mad:

Alaskapopo

11-12-08, 04:35

Sorry if I sound bitter on the fuel costs. Its not the price of gas rather the cost of heating oil that really hurts us up here. Last winter I paid $500 for fuel in the worst months.
Pat

austinN4

11-12-08, 06:52

Its not the price of gas rather the cost of heating oil that really hurts us up here. Last winter I paid $500 for fuel in the worst months.
Pat
Is that because it is cold up there? As to the price of gasoline locally, you have to back all of the state and local taxes out of the price to make a reasonable comparison from state to state. You can't just go by the pump price.

Cold Zero

11-12-08, 07:05

Sorry if I sound bitter on the fuel costs. Its not the price of gas rather the cost of heating oil that really hurts us up here. Last winter I paid $500 for fuel in the worst months.
Pat

The cost of living in Anchorage, to me is comparable to living in Manhattan, or Hawaii, when you look at the cost of everything from 1 gallon of milk, to the price of gas. MHO

MisterWilson

11-12-08, 07:25

No I am not kidding. Here in Alaska we have the oil and gas yet we pay a lot more for it than you in the lower 48 do. They price was way slower in coming down as well. The current price at the pump in my town is $3.59. They only started to lower it when their was talk about legislative investigations into price fixing. We took a ride on behalf of the oil companies and still are. I have no love for their greed.
Pat

No no no no no no no.

No.

You completely bypassed the relatively minor issue of "Wah, gouging is unfair" and got right on the train to crazyville.

Though petroleum is pumped out of Alaska, is it refined there? You live in BFE (or BFA to be more specific), products across the board are going to be more expensive in the American Siberia.

What you're talking about is downright dangerous.

austinN4

11-12-08, 08:11

The cost of living in Anchorage, to me is comparable to living in Manhattan, or Hawaii, when you look at the cost of everything from 1 gallon of milk, to the price of gas. MHO
And my recollection is that it has always been this way during my adult lifetime, so the high prices shouldn't be a suprise to anyone.

RogerinTPA

11-12-08, 08:15

In my opinion, the same can be said for ammo. The metals involved with producing it has plummeted, including fuel to transport it, while the cost of the final product (ammo) has sky rocketed.

Gouging is exactly what it is. Its the retailers right to gouge but its still gouging. As for nationalizing the oil companies that is not a half bad idea after the raping we have been taking.
Pat

10MMGary

11-12-08, 08:36

I think it's just greed-
I'm still thinking about getting 2 6920s for investment purposes- but not if the price goes up.
Check your PM's.

The above post is a perfect example of the absurdity of the whole price gouging complaint. Here we have an individual that hopes to buy an item/s at a fair price and down the road sell said item/s,(which is no longer new BTW)for profit.

It is obvious not many actually know what gouging is legally. There presently is no disaster or emergency, additionally there is no shortage of guns or ammo in general, just a run on certain types of guns and ammo.

I am amazed at how many call President elect Obama a socialist(and rightfully so IMO), yet want to tell others at what price they can sell their products. For crying out loud people we live in a demand driven capitalistic country economically speaking and I say God bless America.

Jay Cunningham

11-12-08, 08:40

The above post is a perfect example of the absurdity of the whole price gouging complaint. Here we have an individual that hopes to buy an item/s at a fair price and down the road sell said item/s,(which is no longer new BTW)for profit.

It is obvious not many actually know what gouging is legally. There presently is no disaster or emergency, additionally there is no shortage of guns or ammo in general, just a run on certain types of guns and ammo.

I am amazed at how many call President elect Obama a socialist(and rightfully so IMO), yet want to tell others at what price they can sell their products. For crying out loud people we live in a demand driven capitalistic country economically speaking and I say God bless America.

+1

Great post.

Rosco P

11-12-08, 08:56

^+10000

Supply and Demand. Its all it is.

I just purchased a Bushy M4gery and a 6920 at the same prices they were 6 months ago.

Capitalism has it's soft spots, like perceived or real gouging, but in the end it is certainly better than the alternatives. Particularly the whole work harder-earn more thing that some folks just can't get a grip on. Luckily, we have the internet. Now we have a national market and can find the best deals. It is rediculous to complain about what a dealer is doing when there are only 500 other places to buy quality weapons on the internet at varying prices.

Gas prices should be a seperate thread.

Fringe

11-12-08, 09:14

kwelz

11-12-08, 13:55

I understand that prices need to be set to cover replacement cost. This is basic economics for a business owner. However I also know that there is a point when it crosses the line from just making a profit to trying to screw people because of public hysteria.

One of my local shops has jacked up all prices. M855 that was .35/round yesterday is .60/round today. DPMS light 16 A3s are just under 1K and Colt 6721s are $1700. While I can't speak on the Colts, I know that the price of the DPMS rifles has not gone up that much and the ammo used to be priced at .51/round before they dropped the price because of it not selling..

There is adjusting to the economy and then there is taking advantage of people.

austinN4

11-12-08, 14:13

However I also know that there is a point when it crosses the line from just making a profit to trying to screw people because of public hysteria.
You are only screwed if you pay these prices. I have the right to charge anything I want. And you have the right to buy it or not. Nobody is making you do anything.

kwelz

11-12-08, 14:17

Ok Trying to screw people :P

austinN4

11-12-08, 14:33

Ok Trying to screw people :P
If you agree to pay my price, how is that screwing you? Maybe I can ship it now and no one else can. Or maybe my service is better than someone elses. Maybe my $100 widget is in stock for immediate local pick up, while the $80 widget is back ordered 8 weeks or longer from a web site that is only 2 weeks old. Who knows why you would pay my price, except you, but it is your decision and that is the point.

Jerm

11-12-08, 14:54

again(imo)...

It's not a matter of those who raise their prices doing something wrong...but those who dont raise prices doing something very right.;)

Nothing wrong with remembering that fact and taking it into account in the future.

Dave L.

11-12-08, 15:06

This Thread is turning into a pissing contest.

A prepared person shouldn't NEED anything at this point. You should be set by now, if not, you learned nothing from the past and are an IDIOT.

MisterWilson

11-12-08, 15:43

in my opinion, the price shouldn't go up until there is no longer a ready supply. i know your opinion already. i also that "what is, is."

in fact, it's my opinion that the reason there IS still a ready supply on auction sites is that the price has shot up in anticipation of demand, out pacing it, and that's why there is still a ready supply there. People like me say, "what? the same DPMS receiver that was going for $120 yesterday is now starting at $200? forget that."

so they sit, unsold.

The difference between what you think is that your "opinion" is flatly wrong and not grounded in reality, specifically that the price of a product is hinged upon it's supply without regard to demand, and that my "opinion" is based upon a fundamental concept of economics.

As for price outpacing demand, that's ludicrous, ESPECIALLY on an auction site of all places where the buyer sets the price.

If you'll look carefully, for every receiver that didn't sell for $200, 3 more sold for over $185. If you consider that to be outpacing a fair price without regard to demand, I've got a bridge to sell you (and at a fair price).

senorlinc

11-12-08, 15:56

C4IGrant

11-12-08, 16:54

Let's try and look at things from a dealers standpoint (one that feeds their family from the profits their business makes).

1. If there is a ban or an ammo tax, sales will drop drastically.
2. The FFL dealer will not be able to stay in business will have to close up shop.
3. The demand for all things ammo, gun and mag related has killed the ability to re-order products.

Normally I make my money on VOLUME and not on profit margins (as do most online FFL's). So what happens when the volume is no longer there? Prices go up. Is that price gouging? I don't think so.
Remember that FFL dealers need to make a living as well and they live in DAILEY fear of an assault weapons ban. So my opinion is that dealers should make as much money as they can because they will eventually be out of business and have to bag groceries for a living. :mad:

Always remember to wear the other guys shoes before you trample them with yours. ;)

C4

RB1968

11-12-08, 16:55

sounds to me like alot of folks are just pissed because they feel as if they are getting bitch slapped by the "invisible hand" of capitalism.

build a bridge, get over it

i came along late in the game. i did not own a firearm before march of this year. if you were paying attention, at that time Sen. Clinton was a shoo in for the Presidency. he social agenda and her disdain for the 2nd amendment were both well publisized. i shopped, i found deals and i am prepared. complacancy and ingnorance are not excuses to harbour animosity towards those who have foresight and are proactive.

it is hypocrtical for an individual to debase those who seek returns on their investments while maintaining that they believe in a free, capitalist society. if you are comfortable with the notion of "sharing the wealth" then you will have a nice vacation for the next 4 years

wow, my first rant...

Most people who were keeping track of what was happening in this Country started buying their firearms and firearm needed items, long before the Election rants got started. There was plenty of ARs and AR Mags also 5.56/223 Ammo. to be had at fair prices.

What we are now seeing happen is just many people falling for the fear hype, also many firearm stores are taking advantage of the fear hype.

For sure prices are going to be higher from now on, but after a few Months there will again be plenty of ARs and AR Mags also 5.56/223 Ammo. to be found.:)

Jay Cunningham

11-12-08, 17:05

Alaskapopo

11-12-08, 17:42

No no no no no no no.

No.

You completely bypassed the relatively minor issue of "Wah, gouging is unfair" and got right on the train to crazyville.

Though petroleum is pumped out of Alaska, is it refined there? You live in BFE (or BFA to be more specific), products across the board are going to be more expensive in the American Siberia.

What you're talking about is downright dangerous.
Yes it is refined here. And socialism is not crazy. Its just an alternative to capitalism as a way to run the economy. With the oil companies raping us maybe its time to try something new.
Pat

hatt

11-12-08, 18:04

Yes it is refined here. And socialism is not crazy. Its just an alternative to capitalism as a way to run the economy. With the oil companies raping us maybe its time to try something new.
Pat

I'd rather be raped at the pump than waiting in line for the fuel truck to show up so I can get my 5 gallon quota for cheap. YMMV

It's funny how capitalism is great to many around here until capitalism actually does what capitalism is intended to do. Ensure supply and profit. Those "price gougers" are going to start looking good IF everyone else is hopelessly sold out and you are in a real bad situation with your supplies. No one likes prices going up but if the prices stay low every jackass around is going to be buying up everything as it come onto the market. On the other hand if there is a adequate supply the guy selling the stuff at a lower price will be gathering sales and the sky high guys will have a nice inventory sitting there waiting.

MisterWilson

11-12-08, 18:06

Run the economy where?? Into the ground!?

Our uncles, fathers, and grandfathers fought this backwards-ass way of life for years, and you're going to act like it's some kind of viable alternative that ought to be considered!?

Did you bump your head?

bkb0000

11-12-08, 18:07

The difference between what you think is that your "opinion" is flatly wrong and not grounded in reality, specifically that the price of a product is hinged upon it's supply without regard to demand, and that my "opinion" is based upon a fundamental concept of economics.

As for price outpacing demand, that's ludicrous, ESPECIALLY on an auction site of all places where the buyer sets the price.

If you'll look carefully, for every receiver that didn't sell for $200, 3 more sold for over $185. If you consider that to be outpacing a fair price without regard to demand, I've got a bridge to sell you (and at a fair price).

This whole argument is retarded. You're defending your opinion that things should be really expensive right now with the vigor of a durka on jihad. I'm stuck to the conclusion that things are *overly* expensive, and therefor aren't selling, and aren't going to sell, as well as they could. I do not think we're to the point where the majority of people are willing to spend 50-100%+ more on parts, so all this shit that's marked way up is going to come back down to whatever the correct ratio should be. All the gun shops around here still have ARs IN STOCK. My buddy just picked up a bushy varminter for $1,050 at sportsman's warehouse this afternoon.

It's not unreasonable to believe dealers may have panicked with their pricing, just as buyers have panicked with buying- this country just took a huge low blow, everyone's freaked out.

Unless you have a degree in economics specifically- I'm sure I've taken the same stupid GenEd prerequisite economics classes as you, so don't bother trying to school me on capitalism. we disagree, and aren't going to convert each other.

Storydude

11-12-08, 18:35

MisterWilson

11-12-08, 18:39

blah blah blah

bkb0000

11-12-08, 19:05

blablablabla

I'm pretty sure I concluded that statement with "but I also know that 'what is, is'" or something to the effect- acknowledging that my "opinion" didn't reflect actuality.

we're arguing over straws, here. I'm not one of these guys screaming about gouging- I understand free market, market value and supply/demand. I'm a businessman- I jack my prices up when things get busy, and some people want to pay that and some people don't. that's American business.

my point is that the price has gone up TOO high, and WILL come back down- which we apparently agree on. but you're so hopped up over there you're jumping on any opportunity to engage anyone who doesn't like it, or has anything to say contrary to YOUR opinion.

Gentoo

11-12-08, 19:29

As a person who has a MBA and studied economics and pricing models extensively, followed by the study of law, I have a few comments to make.

1) This is not a pure capitalistic society, despite what people seem to think. Capitalism drives it to be sure, but the presence of government regulations and controls, as well as price floors are features of a controlled capitalistic environment. Why do you think the government will subsidize farmers not to grow corn? To control its price.

2) Price increases as demand goes up and supply goes down. This is a basic tenet of economics, known as the demand curve. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demand

3) What we are in is called a bubble. Left to its own forces, it will not last indefinitely, prices will hit a saturation point where everyone who was willing to buy at that price already did, and then come back down.

4) External forces can effect that bubble. IE, AWB or ammo tax. If Obama goes on TV tonight and declares there will be an AWB, the duration of the bubble will be extended. If he goes on TV and declares there will be no AWB, the bubble will pop.

Here is a website that does a halfway decent job of explaining supply and demand: http://ingrimayne.com/econ/DemandSupply/SupEtDemand.html

I will be happy to answer any specific questions anyone has.

Gunrider

11-12-08, 19:33

This Thread is turning into a pissing contest.

A prepared person shouldn't NEED anything at this point. You should be set by now, if not, you learned nothing from the past and are an IDIOT.

Amen!

austinN4

11-12-08, 19:34

I do not think we're to the point where the majority of people are willing to spend 50-100%+ more on parts, so all this shit that's marked way up is going to come back down to whatever the correct ratio should be.
And if this occurs as you believe it wil, prices will come down. Supply and demand always work together to affect prices (ETA: in a free market).

chadbag

11-12-08, 23:05

It is gouging. The definition that MisterWilson has in his signature and that I posted in one of these gouging threads clearly shows that. However, gouging is just a term of certain events that parties initiate in a free market. I don't think anyone is calling for laws against it. People are just grousing about it as they don't want to pay the artificially inflated price. It is part of the market and those people will come back down barring a huge external interference in the market, unless enough suckers actually clean the gougers out.

As has been mentioned, it is part of the free market. Businessmen can choose to gouge and people can choose not to do business with them if they want.

Submariner

11-13-08, 02:18

Normally I make my money on VOLUME and not on profit margins (as do most online FFL's). So what happens when the volume is no longer there? Prices go up. Is that price gouging? I don't think so.

Don't prices go up when supply is steady and demand (VOLUME) goes up? Sorta like our orthodontist sending us a letter advising we bring in our 10-year old for braces when six months ago, he could wait until he turns 12 or 13. What has changed? The business climate not my sons teeth.

Remember that FFL dealers need to make a living as well and they live in DAILEY fear of an assault weapons ban. So my opinion is that dealers should make as much money as they can because they will eventually be out of business and have to bag groceries for a living. :mad:

Super Chicken to Fred: "You knew the job was dangerous when you took it."

Did you expect the Republicans to stay in the White House until you were eligible for socialist security? ;)

Alaskapopo

11-13-08, 03:24

Run the economy where?? Into the ground!?

I'm all for attacking the argument and not the man, but Jesus Christ, are you nuts!?

Our uncles, fathers, and grandfathers fought this backwards-ass way of life for years, and you're going to act like it's some kind of viable f'n alternative that ought to be considered!?

Did you bump your head?

If you are all for attacking the argument then do so. Act like an adult and keep the childish insults to yourself. I don't know you personally and you may be one hell of a nice guy. But I disagree with your politics. That does not make me evil. Like many hard core right wingers you think socialism is evil. Its not about good or evil its just another way to run an ecomony. In a socialist structure there is nothing stopping people from having a bill of rights like we do. You can also have a capatalist country where the people have little to no freedom. Look at China.
Pat

Jay Cunningham

11-13-08, 03:29

Please do not post any comments that are intentional personal attacks against other members. (Including, but not limited to, name calling, comments of a racial, religious or sexual nature.) Debate is welcome and encouraged. Personal attacks, and name calling, serve no purpose in the exchange and debate of good information. Please be respectful to your fellow shooting enthusiasts whether they are new shooters or seasoned veterans.

Robb Jensen

11-13-08, 05:11

Don't prices go up when supply is steady and demand (VOLUME) goes up? Sorta like our orthodontist sending us a letter advising we bring in our 10-year old for braces when six months ago, he could wait until he turns 12 or 13. What has changed? The business climate not my sons teeth.

Super Chicken to Fred: "You knew the job was dangerous when you took it."

Did you expect the Republicans to stay in the White House until you were eligible for socialist security? ;)

Good points Paul.

M4arc

11-13-08, 06:28

A prepared person shouldn't NEED anything at this point. You should be set by now, if not, you learned nothing from the past and are an IDIOT.

That would be me (not the idiot) :D

I haven't needed to purchase anything since the election. I did buy one 33rd Glock mag for shits and giggles.

I've been purchasing things since 2004 in preparation for this time.

dbrowne1

11-13-08, 08:06

Pricing and changes in prices are nothing more than the "throttle" that controls the market distribution of limited goods. Stop thinking about what is going in with your own selfish perspectives and look at the market as a whole.

When a good becomes more scarce, or there is information indicating it is about to become more scarce - like a potential ban - guess what happens? Demand shoots through the roof. The only way to "fairly" distribute the scarce good is to raise prices to reflect its scarcity and make sure the good is sold to the people who need it the most (as reflected by the price they are willing to pay) and make sure that booger eaters don't buy hundreds of them and clean the shelves such that other people can't get any at all.

If you leave the prices where they are, people will go buy hundreds of mags "just because" rather than because they really need them. The market is doing what it is supposed to do.

Oh, and you should have bought them a month before the election like me.

C4IGrant

11-13-08, 08:28

Don't prices go up when supply is steady and demand (VOLUME) goes up? Sorta like our orthodontist sending us a letter advising we bring in our 10-year old for braces when six months ago, he could wait until he turns 12 or 13. What has changed? The business climate not my sons teeth.

Nope. When I had everything in stock, I offered discounts per item and QTY discounts as well. Not any more. If tomorrow I suddenly had all my inventory back in stock (have sold just about every gun in my shop and magazine) then I would go back to giving discounts.

C4

Rosco P

11-13-08, 08:59

Nope. When I had everything in stock, I offered discounts per item and QTY discounts as well. Not any more. If tomorrow I suddenly had all my inventory back in stock (have sold just about every gun in my shop and magazine) then I would go back to giving discounts.

C4

Okay.

You are both right.

Increase in demand with steady supply increases price.

Decline in supply raises price.

A rapid increase in demand has an immediate impact on supply. Bigger price change.

The converse of all this is also true.(Although when its the other way around you don't see retailers posting up unfair complaint threads)

Enjoy this graph.

http://www.argmax.com/mt_blog/archive/pokemonf1.gif

jlficken

11-13-08, 15:05

I might be getting a few stripped lowers for $90 OTD. If I get them great if I don't I will not pay $180 for one. I don't need them but some day I want to build a few more AR's so having them is better than not but I won't pay a crazy amount for them. If I don't get them I'll shoot the one I have even more.

Shark

11-13-08, 15:39

Okay.

You are both right.

Increase in demand with steady supply increases price.

Decline in supply raises price.

A rapid increase in demand has an immediate impact on supply. Bigger price change.

The converse of all this is also true.(Although when its the other way around you don't see retailers posting up unfair complaint threads)

Enjoy this graph.

http://www.argmax.com/mt_blog/archive/pokemonf1.gif

Roscoe,

Thanks for the chart and Econ 101. What we are experiencing is a rightward shift of the Demand curve, hence the higher prices. Although in need of items for spares, I will probably not purchase receiver-type accesories for a while. So, hopefully my current firing pin and BCG hold up through the panic buying.

OT: During the gas and oil crunch this summer, it amazed me that the DemocRAT leadership was so against drilling, ie. increasing supply. Do ya think that would lower prices???? Maybe they should get re-educated. Then again, some want political gain, while looking incredibly foolish. What's worse is the people who believe them....

Shark out.

MisterWilson

11-13-08, 17:25

Interesting Link... (http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=787827)

Left Sig

11-13-08, 21:43

If you are all for attacking the argument then do so. Act like an adult and keep the childish insults to yourself. I don't know you personally and you may be one hell of a nice guy. But I disagree with your politics. That does not make me evil. Like many hard core right wingers you think socialism is evil. Its not about good or evil its just another way to run an ecomony. In a socialist structure there is nothing stopping people from having a bill of rights like we do. You can also have a capatalist country where the people have little to no freedom. Look at China.
Pat

It's not just another way to run an economy. It has been proven in the real world to result in lower standards of living, higher unemployment, and far lower economic growth. Take a look at France, or the UK, or any other socialist country.

I agree that there is no reason a socialist country can't have a bill of rights and protect individual freedom. But for some reason, most socialist countries DON'T. Why is that? It's because political freedom and economic freedom go hand in hand. One without the other is only half the picture. What good is freedom if you can't do what you want with your money, and your work?

The problem with socialism is that it removes market incentives for people to perform at their highest ability levels because they do not get rewarded equitably for that effort. The fundamental idea behind all economic theory is that people, by human nature, are rarely satisfied with what they have. They want more, and the way to get more is to be better, faster, smarter, more productive than the next guy. Socialism fails to acknowledge this basic truth.

A prime example of the negative effects of socialism is welfare. AFDC benefits are easily shown by economic theory to be a disincentive to work. Why work for minimum wage when you can make 75% of it doing nothing? The effective difference in compensation is only a dollar or two an hour - which is not enough to make it worthwhile to the people who stay on welfare.

Another prime example is what happens in labor unions. There is no change in pay for doing a better job or being a better employee. Only time of service is rewarded. When people are laid off, the company cannot retain the most valuable employees, or the most productive, only the most senior. A company cannot compete effectively if it cannot reward it's good workers with more pay to encourage them to stay. What's even worse is that union members who do a good job and work extra hard because they have a good work ethic are told by the others to slow down. You end up with a lowest common denominator of performance.

This same system of reasoning has destroyed public education, were mediocrity rules. Teachers are paid for years of service and the attainment of education degrees that are essentially unrelated to how good of a job they actually do at teaching. When confronted with poor student performance and graduation rates, they simply lower the standards and make the tests easier. This is happening right now in New York City.

The greatest capitalist meritocracy ever created in this country is Silicon Valley. It doesn't matter if you have a pedigree from the Ivy League or if you even graduated. It doesn't matter where you came from or what you look like. If you have a better idea and you can make it work, you can make billions. A couple guys created Apple computer in a garage. A couple guys created Yahoo in a dorm room. Another couple guys created Google. They are all rich, and some are billionaires. It's no surprise that Silicon Valley is one of the most innovative places on earth.

Alaskapopo

11-14-08, 06:36

It's not just another way to run an economy. It has been proven in the real world to result in lower standards of living, higher unemployment, and far lower economic growth. Take a look at France, or the UK, or any other socialist country.

I agree that there is no reason a socialist country can't have a bill of rights and protect individual freedom. But for some reason, most socialist countries DON'T. Why is that? It's because political freedom and economic freedom go hand in hand. One without the other is only half the picture. What good is freedom if you can't do what you want with your money, and your work?

The problem with socialism is that it removes market incentives for people to perform at their highest ability levels because they do not get rewarded equitably for that effort. The fundamental idea behind all economic theory is that people, by human nature, are rarely satisfied with what they have. They want more, and the way to get more is to be better, faster, smarter, more productive than the next guy. Socialism fails to acknowledge this basic truth.

A prime example of the negative effects of socialism is welfare. AFDC benefits are easily shown by economic theory to be a disincentive to work. Why work for minimum wage when you can make 75% of it doing nothing? The effective difference in compensation is only a dollar or two an hour - which is not enough to make it worthwhile to the people who stay on welfare.

Another prime example is what happens in labor unions. There is no change in pay for doing a better job or being a better employee. Only time of service is rewarded. When people are laid off, the company cannot retain the most valuable employees, or the most productive, only the most senior. A company cannot compete effectively if it cannot reward it's good workers with more pay to encourage them to stay. What's even worse is that union members who do a good job and work extra hard because they have a good work ethic are told by the others to slow down. You end up with a lowest common denominator of performance.

This same system of reasoning has destroyed public education, were mediocrity rules. Teachers are paid for years of service and the attainment of education degrees that are essentially unrelated to how good of a job they actually do at teaching. When confronted with poor student performance and graduation rates, they simply lower the standards and make the tests easier. This is happening right now in New York City.

The greatest capitalist meritocracy ever created in this country is Silicon Valley. It doesn't matter if you have a pedigree from the Ivy League or if you even graduated. It doesn't matter where you came from or what you look like. If you have a better idea and you can make it work, you can make billions. A couple guys created Apple computer in a garage. A couple guys created Yahoo in a dorm room. Another couple guys created Google. They are all rich, and some are billionaires. It's no surprise that Silicon Valley is one of the most innovative places on earth.

I am a union supporter. Unions are what gave us safe working conditions, the 40 hour work week and paid vacations. Thank you unions. And you are dead wrong about union shops not rewarding better workers. All unions do is allow the workers to negotiate a fair wage and it keeps the employier honest so they have to follow the rules and can't push and bully people.

You have some good points about socialism going wrong in some ways, but then again so has capitalism. Just look at our economy right now. Also look at Mexico's. Very few rich and a lot of poor and almost no middle class. The middle class in this country is also shrinking. As far as making billions, I am all for rewarding innovation but who really needs to make billions. I would love to say after you make 1million a year you get taxed at 50% or more of your income. Because obviously the country is creating a situation in which you are able to make a lot of wealth. Why pay sports figures millions and school teachers and cops peanuts. The free market is not perfect and left un checked by government it quickly leads to ruin and un equality.

Pat

austinN4

11-14-08, 07:06

I would love to say after you make 1million a year you get taxed at 50% or more of your income. Because obviously the country is creating a situation in which you are able to make a lot of wealth. Why pay sports figures millions and school teachers and cops peanuts. The free market is not perfect and left un checked by government it quickly leads to ruin and un equality.
If I netted $1 million per year I would gladly pay 50% in taxes. But the problem is I net nowhere near that and still pay 50% in taxes - try adding up your income, payroll, sales and property taxes sometime. And as a small business person I get to pay both sides of the payroll taxes.

The last word in your quote above says it all - unequality. You apparantly want everyone to be equal. That is not capitalism.

School teachers, cops and the like, have very hard jobs, but, no disrespect intended, they are paid based on their economic contribution. Sports figures are arguably paid millions due to their econonic value based on what you and others are willing to pay, directly or indirectly, to see them play, which brings in many more millions. Such is the way of capitalism, for better or worse.

We are paid what we are based on our ecomonic value, not because our jobs are hard. Ditch diggers have hard jobs, too. If we are being paid less than what our economic value is, someone else will pay us more. See how it circled back to supply and demand?

MisterWilson

11-14-08, 07:23

I am a union supporter. Unions are what gave us safe working conditions, the 40 hour work week and paid vacations. Thank you unions. And you are dead wrong about union shops not rewarding better workers. All unions do is allow the workers to negotiate a fair wage and it keeps the employier honest so they have to follow the rules and can't push and bully people.

And the balance has since swung to the opposite extreme, unions are killing the larger corporations right now (specifically the auto industry, you don't mind if they have a slice of our bailout pie too, do you?). As a child, the thought of a union sticking it to "the man" was appealing, but as I grew up the thought of owning a business without the employees telling me how the cow's gonna eat the cabbage seemed pretty nice too. Being employed is supposed to be a lot like capitalism in regards to voting with your feet. If you don't like what's available, you're always free to walk.

You have some good points about socialism going wrong in some ways, but then again so has capitalism. Just look at our economy right now. Also look at Mexico's. Very few rich and a lot of poor and almost no middle class. The middle class in this country is also shrinking. As far as making billions, I am all for rewarding innovation but who really needs to make billions. I would love to say after you make 1million a year you get taxed at 50% or more of your income. Because obviously the country is creating a situation in which you are able to make a lot of wealth. Why pay sports figures millions and school teachers and cops peanuts. The free market is not perfect and left un checked by government it quickly leads to ruin and un equality.

Pat

Our economy is largely hurting from the over-regulation of our government, specifically congress mandating that the lending industry must make bad loans without regard to a person's ability to pay it back. I think it would be fair to say that the government's intrusion in workings of that industry is what sank that ship, but socialism is asking for more! Remember that expression about "The most dangerous words in the english language are 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help'?" You're advocating that rather than simply help, that they steer the ship!!

What are you basing your opinion off of about the free market leading to ruin & inequality? And what makes you think that things need to be fair or equal?

C4IGrant

11-14-08, 08:16

I am a union supporter. Unions are what gave us safe working conditions, the 40 hour work week and paid vacations. Thank you unions. And you are dead wrong about union shops not rewarding better workers. All unions do is allow the workers to negotiate a fair wage and it keeps the employier honest so they have to follow the rules and can't push and bully people.

You have some good points about socialism going wrong in some ways, but then again so has capitalism. Just look at our economy right now. Also look at Mexico's. Very few rich and a lot of poor and almost no middle class. The middle class in this country is also shrinking. As far as making billions, I am all for rewarding innovation but who really needs to make billions. I would love to say after you make 1million a year you get taxed at 50% or more of your income. Because obviously the country is creating a situation in which you are able to make a lot of wealth. Why pay sports figures millions and school teachers and cops peanuts. The free market is not perfect and left un checked by government it quickly leads to ruin and un equality.

Pat

I would have to disagree with the Union comments. They are basically what is dragging us down. They reward workers that are not doing the same level of work as their co-workers. Their wages tend to be over inflated (for the amount of work they put out) and the union protects members that should have been fired a long, long time ago.

There is a building in NYC full of teachers that are NOT fit to teach, but the city cannot get rid of them because of the Union. :rolleyes:

If you are hard working and good at your job, you will do well in life. I have NEVER been in a single union and have always gotten a fair wage, good benefits and vacation (as has my wife).

C4

Joe_Friday

11-14-08, 08:35

MisterWilson I firmly agree with what you just said and would like to add this.

I DO NOT LIKE UNIONS. I agree that when they were first brought about that there needed to be changes in working conditions and pay in some areas. But, given an inch they took a mile and a half, and are in my eyes corrupt. A friend of mine from another department is in a union and is basically required to be if he wants to have a job and after 14 years he said the other day when this subject was brought, that he has only seen the rep a few times in all those years. Another guy I know that works for Miller Brewery makes well over $23.00 an hour to fill a hopper with bottle caps! Thats it, thats all he does. He sits on a stool and looks at a panel when a light comes on he walks over to the hopper and dumps in a box of the discs that are formed into bottle caps. I don't blame him for making the money, but is this job really worth that much money. I am by no means an economist but it does seem to me that if you have to pay everyone that much money, you have to have higher prices to accomodate this. Lets face it, the company is not going to eat the loss.
I guess that what I am getting at is because of unions and greed, we have to pay an outrageous cost for our products. Do they have unions like this overseas? That could be one reason for lower prices. Don't get me wrong, I still try to buy American when I can but the unions have gotten out of control.

Alaskapopo, I am not going to argue with you. All I will say is this. HUH!?!?!? :confused:

Jay Cunningham

11-14-08, 09:24

I am a union member, have been for ten years. I have no choice, I don't live in a so-called "right to work" state. To do the job that I am currently doing I need to be in a union.

There was once a time and place (90 years ago) when unions were necessary. Now we have labor laws and the precedent they bring. We have NLRB and OSHA. Unions are largely an anachronism for anything other than absolutely unskilled jobs.

The unions are a large part of why the steel mills are gone. The unions are why the Big Three auto makers need federal government life support to keep them breathing. The unions are why our local Port Authority (public transportation) always threaten strike and say they have no money, despite our high taxes.

I make a good living in my current job and I have some seniority, so I have no plans on moving on. However, I would have no problem working in a non-union shop... in my experience the only people the union "fights for" are the lazy assclowns... all the others do their jobs and don't need a union.

rmecapn

11-14-08, 09:58

I am a union member, have been for ten years. I have no choice, I don't live in a so-called "right to work" state. To do the job that I am currently doing I need to be in a union.

Ahh yes, America, land of the free. :(

I would have no problem working in a non-union shop... in my experience the only people the union "fights for" are the lazy assclowns... all the others do their jobs and don't need a union.

It took alot of courage to be that honest (particulary in print). Thanks!

Left Sig

11-14-08, 10:48

I made my union comments because I have spent most of the last 15 years in the auto industry, working in engineering or management in union shops. I've supervised UAW, IUE, and Steelworkers union members and for the most part it's always the same thing.

They protect the bad workers and thereby piss off the good workers. Everyone gets paid the same so you can't reward the good and punish the bad economically. And for some reason, many employees are always convinced that they are getting screwed by the company even though they have industry leading wages and benefits. And the way they try to control things is to slow down, hold up production, and try to force the company to use more workers then needed for simple tasks. It worked for decades when the Big-3 were the only game in town - but the game has changed and the unions haven't.

Sure there are some great union workers that have worked for me. But all I could do to reward them for the extra effort is good will and thanks. Sometimes work ethic and pride overcome the system. Some managers cheat the rules and give the better workers special treatment, but that's a slippery slope because it always comes back to bite you in the ass. When a lousy worker needs to be disciplined, the union will claim that the treatment given the good worker is a precedent, and the lousy worker must be treated the same.

I agree unions were needed 75 years ago. Working conditions are terrible and unsafe. But once all of the that was codified into law, the unions simply started going after more and more wages and benefits. There was a time when union workers made what is considered to be the "average" wage for what they do. But now they are at the highest levels of compensation for what they do and the situation is untenable. That's why businesses are moving south or out of the country.

No one is saying that perfectly free markets or unregulated capitalism are what we need. There HAS to be reasonable government regulation to control things like safety, pollution and many other factors where it is not in a company's best economic interest to do the "right thing". That's also basic economic theory.

Like I said earlier - study France.

France has unions for just about everything, and once someone is hired it is almost impossible to fire them. Because it is such a gamble to hire new people, unemployment among young unproven workers is around 20%. When legislation was introduced to allow a 2-year trial period for young employees during which they could be fired for any reason, the unions protested and it got shot down. Then you had riots and vandalism and 100's of burned cars.

France is not known as a world leader in any kind of manufacturing. The quality of their cars sucks, so they are uncompetitive everywhere else in the world except France (Renault, anyone?).

C4IGrant

11-14-08, 10:50

hatt

11-14-08, 11:07

So we have Union members that think they are FUBARD and bad for business and you have NON Union people that have done VERY well without Union's and are telling you that Union's are FUBARD.

Any questions???

C4

The question is: how long before the unions expand to most every large company. I know some higher ups in a giant supermarket chain(if you live in FL, yeah that giant one) who are scared to death of the unions getting into their business.

Left Sig

11-14-08, 11:45

If the democrats and Obama get the card check legislation passed (no secret ballot for union votes) that very well could happen...

And then we'd be a lot closer to the France example...

austinN4

11-14-08, 11:46

The question is: how long before the unions expand to most every large company. I know some higher ups in a giant supermarket chain(if you live in FL, yeah that giant one) who are scared to death of the unions getting into their business.
Especially if the dems are successful at getting rid of the secret ballot.

CarlosDJackal

11-14-08, 11:52

So we have Union members that think they are FUBARD and bad for business and you have NON Union people that have done VERY well without Union's and are telling you that Union's are FUBARD.

Any questions???

C4

Yes, what are the Union bosses going to do if their organization were to fold?

I agree, unions were very useful in the past when "the man" could care less about their workers' safety and their families' welfare. But let's face facts, Unions nowadays are nothing more than an Employment Welfare System that protects the useless and punishes the hard-working. FWIW, I used to belong to a Union and even then I thought the rules I had to follow were counter to good service and a waste of time. JM2CW.

Alaskapopo

11-14-08, 12:37

Alaskapopo

11-14-08, 12:40

If the democrats and Obama get the card check legislation passed (no secret ballot for union votes) that very well could happen...

And then we'd be a lot closer to the France example...

I hope to heck this law gets passed it will make it a lot harder for corrupt employers to intimidated people out of unionizing.
Pat

Alaskapopo

11-14-08, 12:40

The question is: how long before the unions expand to most every large company. I know some higher ups in a giant supermarket chain(if you live in FL, yeah that giant one) who are scared to death of the unions getting into their business.
Yes they are scared because they don't want to have to pay a fair wage.
Pat

Alaskapopo

11-14-08, 12:44

Forgot to mention the poster who mentioned the auto industry bailout. I find it funny how conservatives can support such corperate welfare while at the same time hating welfare for people. So its ok to hand out state money to big companies but its not ok to help out people down on their luck. Hmm. Sounds hypocritical to me.
Pat

C4IGrant

11-14-08, 12:48

If Unions were not around things would revert back to the way they were before they arrived and we would eventually have child labor, sweat shops, and un safe working conditions. Unions do not over inflate wages they just allow the workers to have a voice and negotiate with the employer. No one is holding a gun to the employer's head making him or her sign the contracts. As a police officer who has worked in both union and non union shops I can tell you Union is much better. Nation wide union employees make 30% more and receive better benefits than their non union peers. Unions also make it harder for the local mayor to fire a cop he does not like because he happened to arrest his kid for DUI. Basically they keep the employers honest. I have found that most of the complaints against Unions come from business owners who don't like paying a fair wage. As someone who works for a living I appreciate the role unions have had in making this great country better.
Pat

That is a negative. There are more laws to protect employees that you can shake a stick at. As a former manager of about 10 people, I CONSTANTLY had to read a lawsuit newsletter advising us what employees were suing for and winning for.

At any time if you believe that you are being treated unfairly in your job you can sue and will most likely win. :rolleyes:

I do not doubt that a good many union works make more than none union workers. The issue is that most of them do NOT deserve the better pay! These are the people that are dragging down US companies.

C4

C4IGrant

11-14-08, 12:56

Alaskapopo

11-14-08, 13:08

That is a negative. There are more laws to protect employees that you can shake a stick at. As a former manager of about 10 people, I CONSTANTLY had to read a lawsuit newsletter advising us what employees were suing for and winning for.

At any time if you believe that you are being treated unfairly in your job you can sue and will most likely win. :rolleyes:

I do not doubt that a good many union works make more than none union workers. The issue is that most of them do NOT deserve the better pay! These are the people that are dragging down US companies.

C4

Grant those laws are there because of unions. If unions left the scene things would revert back. Big business is a very powerful lobby group and they would work to change the laws back to best suit them. As for as deserving better pay. Workers deserve what ever they can negotiate from their employer. All a union does is allow the workers to act as a powerful united body instead of as weak individuals who are easily bullied and pushed around. I personally have worked in both union and non union shops. Have you? I understand you are a business owner and your bottom line is making the most money you can and that is understandable. But your employees have a right to negotiate for the best pay possible under current market conditions for them as well. A union helps them to do that. Without a union to represent them its easy for greedy business owners to bully people into taking a wage that is not fair. What is dragging down US companies is the same thing that is dragging down the economy in general, Too much debt and greed. We don't have the patients to save up for what we want we just charge it instead.

If ever employer was honest and fair we would not need unions but the brutal reality is that most employers are not honest nor fair in their dealings if left un checked.
Pat

Alaskapopo

11-14-08, 13:11

http://www.unionfreeamerica.com/top_ten_reasons.htm

When I hear that people love unions, I immediately believed that they are either terrible at their job and like the union protection or like their higher pay (that they do not deserve).

C4

When I hear people hate unions I believe they have never worked a day in their life and were handed the family business. Lets not dive into this area of character attacks based on what we believe. As for deserving pay. People deserve whatever they are able to negotiate. A union keeps employers honest in that regard and forces them to pay what the market will bear. Those that hate unions need to work for a corrupt employer some day. Also your comment is kind of silly. Who would not want a higher paying job.
Pat

C4IGrant

11-14-08, 13:22

Grant those laws are there because of unions.

Got any proof of this? Are you trying to tell me that all the laws on the books to protect employees are because of unions???

If unions left the scene things would revert back.

Nope, never happen. Too many lawyers looking to sue because your boss looked at you side ways.

Big business is a very powerful lobby group and they would work to change the laws back to best suit them. As for as deserving better pay. Workers deserve what ever they can negotiate from their employer.

Sure, I have negotiated all of my salaries and I did not need some corrupt union boss to do it. Workers DESERVE to be paid what they can deliver. Unions hide and protect people that CANNOT deliver.

All a union does is allow the workers to act as a powerful united body instead of as weak individuals who are easily bullied and pushed around.

Unions never bullied any company have they. :rolleyes: I would say that unions bully far more companies than companies have bullied employees.

Example: http://therightrant.blogspot.com/2007/09/labor-unionsbad-for-america.html

I personally have worked in both union and non union shops. Have you?

I was in the Navy (which is a form of Union). My co-workers that SUCKED at their job got promoted just like I did. As a NON Union guy, I made more money than my co-workers did because I was better than they were.

I understand you are a business owner and your bottom line is making the most money you can and that is understandable. But your employees have a right to negotiate for the best pay possible under current market conditions for them as well.

Yes, an employee of mine is more than free to ask for the market rate for what they do. If they are good at their job, then they will most likely get it too! It is VERY hard to find quality workers. Those that are good at their job never have anything to fear. Those that are lazy and worthless have everything to fear.

A union helps them to do that. Without a union to represent them its easy for greedy business owners to bully people into taking a wage that is not fair. What is dragging down US companies is the same thing that is dragging down the economy in general, Too much debt and greed. We don't have the patients to save up for what we want we just charge it instead.

No its not. Quality labor is hard to find and there is a lot of competition in the market. If you are not paying a fair wage, people will leave. Plan and simple.

The cost for an American company to produce something is WAY higher than in other countries. Reason? Unions. They are making our products much more expensive and we cannot compete in the global marketplace.

If ever employer was honest and fair we would not need unions but the brutal reality is that most employers are not honest nor fair in their dealings if left un checked.
Pat

Most companies are honest and fair with their work force. Every company I have worked for paid me fairly. Bad companies that take advantage of their employees are few and far between and tend NOT to be in business long.

C4

rmecapn

11-14-08, 13:22

I hope to heck this law gets passed it will make it a lot harder for corrupt employers to intimidated people out of unionizing.

And it will make it much easier for corrupt unions to coerce unionization. No thanks.

C4IGrant

11-14-08, 13:27

When I hear people hate unions I believe they have never worked a day in their life and were handed the family business. Lets not dive into this area of character attacks based on what we believe. As for deserving pay. People deserve whatever they are able to negotiate. A union keeps employers honest in that regard and forces them to pay what the market will bear. Those that hate unions need to work for a corrupt employer some day. Also your comment is kind of silly. Who would not want a higher paying job.
Pat

Not the case. We have many examples in this thread! Union workers saying NO to unions!

I wish someone would hand me a family business. I built my from $1,200.00 dollars out of my home! ;)

There are of course bad companies just like their are bad employees. The issue though is that companies are STUCK with a bad employees and can do nothing about it. Is that fair to the company? No way.

C4

Alaskapopo

11-14-08, 13:35

Got any proof of this? Are you trying to tell me that all the laws on the books to protect employees are because of unions???

Nope, never happen. Too many lawyers looking to sue because your boss looked at you side ways.

Sure, I have negotiated all of my salaries and I did not need some corrupt union boss to do it. Workers DESERVE to be paid what they can deliver. Unions hide and protect people that CANNOT deliver.

Unions never bullied any company have they. :rolleyes: I would say that unions bully far more companies than companies have bullied employees.

Example: http://therightrant.blogspot.com/2007/09/labor-unionsbad-for-america.html

I was in the Navy (which is a form of Union). My co-workers that SUCKED at their job got promoted just like I did. As a NON Union guy, I made more money than my co-workers did because I was better than they were.

Yes, an employee of mine is more than free to ask for the market rate for what they do. If they are good at their job, then they will most likely get it too! It is VERY hard to find quality workers. Those that are good at their job never have anything to fear. Those that are lazy and worthless have everything to fear.

No its not. Quality labor is hard to find and there is a lot of competition in the market. If you are not paying a fair wage, people will leave. Plan and simple.

The cost for an American company to produce something is WAY higher than in other countries. Reason? Unions. They are making our products much more expensive and we cannot compete in the global marketplace.

Most companies are honest and fair with their work force. Every company I have worked for paid me fairly. Bad companies that take advantage of their employees are few and far between and tend NOT to be in business long.

C4

Yes Grant it is common knowledge that Unions fought hard and died to get us laws to give us safer working conditions. If you don't know this you did not pay attention in your high school history class.

Unions simply give workers a voice. Yes there are corrupt union bosses but for every one you find you will find 10 corrupt employers.

(Example: http://therightrant.blogspot.com/2007/09/labor-unionsbad-for-america.html)
Sorry but that example is laughable and pure propaganda not worth listen to. Its from a right wing pro business anti union site. I would not expect the truth or an un biased informed view to come from such a site. That is like expecting to get an honest view from Rush Limbaugh.

QUOTE
No its not. Quality labor is hard to find and there is a lot of competition in the market. If you are not paying a fair wage, people will leave. Plan and simple.

The cost for an American company to produce something is WAY higher than in other countries. Reason? Unions. They are making our products much more expensive and we cannot compete in the global marketplace.
END QUOTE

The solution is not to lower american standards of pay but rather to work to help workers in other countries unionize so they get a fair rate. You are right many employees go to countries where they can run sweat shops and utilize child labor and cut corners on working conditions to the point where it is unsafe. Personally I think it is immoral of these companies to do this. But you seem to think its ok.

You say bad companies that don't treat their employees well go out of business. Really. Then why is Walmart still in business. Sorry but your dead wrong on this issue. I understand your bias as a business owner. You want the most money possible from your business and that is fine. But your workers have a right to negotiate as much money as they can under current market conditions. Its all about greed. We all have it workers and employers. But without unions the employees are weak and unable to negotiate a fair wage. With unions they are just as strong as they employers and they are able to negotiate a fair wage. You keep saying things like union workers getting paid what they don't deserve. Hogwash. You don't decide what they deserve the market does. That rate should be set by both sides coming to the table and hashing it out. When one side has all the power the other side always gets the shaft. That is what happens in a non union shop.
Pat

Alaskapopo

11-14-08, 13:39

Not the case. We have many examples in this thread! Union workers saying NO to unions!

I wish someone would hand me a family business. I built my from $1,200.00 dollars out of my home! ;)

There are of course bad companies just like their are bad employees. The issue though is that companies are STUCK with a bad employees and can do nothing about it. Is that fair to the company? No way.

C4
Your wrong you are not stuck with bad employees with unions. You can fire a bad cop in a union. It takes just a little more time because you have to follow due process rules is all. I have seen a few bad cops in both union and non union shops and in both instances they got what they deserved. (they lost their jobs).

This is a common myth that is perpetuated and cried about by business owners but its still a myth.

We are obviously not going to come to agreement on this issue and if we continue on this thread I have a feeling things will get too heated. So I am bowing out. I respect you as a person Grant and you run a good business even if you do forget to ship items that people order from time to time. (You can't blame that one on a lazy union worker) I am going drop out of this thread before it goes to heck. Take care.
Pat

C4IGrant

11-14-08, 13:46

Yes Grant it is common knowledge that Unions fought hard and died to get us laws to give us safer working conditions. If you don't know this you did not pay attention in your high school history class.

Really?? Common to whom? If you believe that Unions are the ones responsible for all the laws in this country that protect workers, you are nuts!

Unions simply give workers a voice. Yes there are corrupt union bosses but for every one you find you will find 10 corrupt employers.

They already have that voice. It is called ambulance chasing lawyers.

The solution is not to lower american standards of pay but rather to work to help workers in other countries unionize so they get a fair rate. You are right many employees go to countries where they can run sweat shops and utilize child labor and cut corners on working conditions to the point where it is unsafe. Personally I think it is immoral of these companies to do this. But you seem to think its ok.

No need to lower wages. Just weed out the people that do not do anything and or pay them for the work they do (not for the work their co-worker does)!

No one ever said child labor was ok, so I am not sure why you would make up such a lie.

You say bad companies that don't treat their employees well go out of business. Really. Then why is Walmart still in business.

If Wally world did anything illegal, they would be sued in court. Simple as that. If people at wal-mart are unhappy about their salary, then they should look at getting a skill set that is ACTUALLY WORTH something.

Sorry but your dead wrong on this issue. I understand your bias as a business owner. You want the most money possible from your business and that is fine.

Really? I was thinking the same thing about you (as are your fellow union workers). A business is run for the purpose of making money (FYI).

But your workers have a right to negotiate as much money as they can under current market conditions.

Correct. I negotiated all my salaries (no filthy union boss required).

Its all about greed. We all have it workers and employers. But without unions the employees are weak and unable to negotiate a fair wage.

Incorrect. I negotiated all my own salaries and was paid a fair wage. People that like unions are ones that cannot negotiate their own salary as they are most likely not pulling their weight.

With unions they are just as strong as they employers and they are able to negotiate a fair wage. You keep saying things like union workers getting paid what they don't deserve. Hogwash. You don't decide what they deserve the market does. That rate should be set by both sides coming to the table and hashing it out. When one side has all the power the other side always gets the shaft. That is what happens in a non union shop.

Anyone can negotiate their fair wage (especially if they are hard working and have a good skill set). The US Govt establishes labor rates and catagories. I have worked under them my entire life. What you should say is that slimy union bosses OVER negotiate salaries so that they can create a salary for themselves.

A person that is hard working and has a desirable skill set, always has the power.

C4

Alaskapopo

11-14-08, 13:50

Really?? Common to whom? If you believe that Unions are the ones responsible for all the laws in this country that protect workers, you are nuts!

They already have that voice. It is called ambulance chasing lawyers.

No need to lower wages. Just weed out the people that do not do anything and or pay them for the work they do (not for the work their co-worker does)!

No one ever said child labor was ok, so I am not sure why you would make up such a lie.

If Wally world did anything illegal, they would be sued in court. Simple as that. If people at wal-mart are unhappy about their salary, then they should look at getting a skill set that is ACTUALLY WORTH something.

Really? I was thinking the same thing about you (as are your fellow union workers). A business is run for the purpose of making money (FYI).

Correct. I negotiated all my salaries (no filthy union boss required).

Incorrect. I negotiated all my own salaries and was paid a fair wage. People that like unions are ones that cannot negotiate their own salary as they are most likely not pulling their weight.

Anyone can negotiate their fair wage (especially if they are hard working and have a good skill set). The US Govt establishes labor rates and catagories. I have worked under them my entire life. What you should say is that slimy union bosses OVER negotiate salaries so that they can create a salary for themselves.

A person that is hard working and has a desirable skill set, always has the power.

C4

Like I said we need to agree to disagree. As for calling me nuts. Try to follow the rules and not resort to personal attacks. Although I am not surprised by this tactic. Business owners often lie and try to demonize union supports so they don't have to pay a fair wage.
Pat

rmecapn

11-14-08, 13:51

Unions simply give workers a voice. Yes there are corrupt union bosses but for every one you find you will find 10 corrupt employers.

To include your employer? So class warfare exists?

(I'm guessing these questions will be left rhetorical since you've opted to bow out of the discussion.)

C4IGrant

11-14-08, 13:52

Your wrong you are not stuck with bad employees with unions. You can fire a bad cop in a union. It takes just a little more time because you have to follow due process rules is all. I have seen a few bad cops in both union and non union shops and in both instances they got what they deserved. (they lost their jobs).

Again, REALLY? Did you not read my comments about a building in NYC full of teachers that are not allowed to teach, but because of their union, and the city cannot fire them????????????

This is a common myth that is perpetuated and cried about by business owners but its still a myth.

Not a myth in the least. I have seen tons of worthless union workers and there are reports in the news about it all the time.

We are obviously not going to come to agreement on this issue and if we continue on this thread I have a feeling things will get too heated. So I am bowing out. I respect you as a person Grant and you run a good business even if you do forget to ship items that people order from time to time. (You can't blame that one on a lazy union worker) I am going drop out of this thread before it goes to heck. Take care.
Pat

Only God is perfect and while we try our best, we are only human. If we had union employees working for us, not only would they have forgot an item, but they wouldn't have ever even shipped you anthing as they were too busy on break or negotiating a higher salary for the work they weren't doing. ;)

C4