View Full Version : Question: When Does a Pistol Caliber Become a Rifle Caliber?
All,
As is often said, "pistols are pistols and rifles are rifles". But at what point does a pistol caliber become a rifle caliber?
Let's compare four self-defense loads:
Federal LE Tactical HST JHP
9mm Luger +P
124 gr
1200 fps
396 ft-lbs
https://www.luckygunner.com/9mm-p-124-grain-jhp-federal-le-tactical-hst-1000-rounds
Federal LE Tactical HST JHP
.45 ACP
230 gr
950 fps
461 ft-lbs
https://www.luckygunner.com/45-acp-230-gr-jhp-hst-federal-law-enforcement-1000-rounds
Federal LE Tactical SP
.223 Remington
55 gr
3220 fps
1266 ft-lbs
https://www.luckygunner.com/223-rem-55-grain-soft-point-federal-le-tactical-tru-500-rounds
Federal Fusion SP
7.62x39
123 gr
2350 fps
1508 ft-lbs
https://www.luckygunner.com/7-62x39mm-123-gr-federal-fusion-20-rounds
MUZZLE ENERGY --> LETHALITY
There's a clear difference in muzzle energy. The .223 bullet is less than half the size of the 9mm bullet, but because it's going nearly 3x as fast, it's going to be more lethal:
https://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/DocGKRData/HomecarbineWP.jpg
https://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/
Is there a point at which a pistol caliber becomes a rifle caliber in terms of muzzle energy? Is there an accepted standard, e.g. "Any bullet that delivers more than 1000 foot-pounds energy is no longer a pistol caliber, but a rifle caliber"?
SPEED --> FRAGMENTATION
There's a clear difference in feet per second. It's been well-documented that misses from faster rifle bullets are less likely to pose a danger to others:
"Statements are made that the shotgun or pistol should be used because of the over-penetration problem with 5.56 carbine ammunition. This could not be further from the truth. If you conduct a little research you will find that numerous law enforcement departments, to include the FBI, have proven this to be false in most cases. The fact of the matter is that many of these bullets will penetrate numerous walls, but standard 5.56 loadings are the least of your worries when compared to pistol and shotgun fodder, which continue to take top honors in the category of over-penetration." US Army Sergeant Major Lamb (former Delta/CAG)
https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2015/5/26/the-ar-for-home-defense-one-experts-opinion
"Common pistol rounds easily penetrated all 4 walls spaced out at room distances. This is a critical issue. Think about the inside of your house and imagine if you shot through 4 walls. Could you hit a loved one? Know your target and what is behind it....The 5.56 rounds deviated greatly from the original flight path once they started tumbling. This occurred after the second wall." Old_Painless (certified Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Personal Firearms Defense, and Home Firearms Safety Instructor)
http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-12-insulated-walls/
"Proponents of the pistol for home defense like to think that because it’s 'just' a pistol round, overpenetration really won’t be an issue. Such is not the case. Drywall sheets and hollow-core doors (which are what you’ll find in the majority of homes and apartments in this country) offer almost no resistance to bullets....For years many people just assumed they knew what would happen to a rifle bullet fired indoors—it would go through every wall available and then exit the building. While armor-piercing and FMJ ammunition is specifically designed to do this, extensive testing has shown that light, extremely fast-moving .223 projectiles (including FMJs) often fragment when they hit a barrier as soft as thin plywood." James Tarr (former police officer; contributing editor for Guns and Ammo)
http://www.gunsandammo.com/ammo/long-guns-short-yardage-is-223-the-best-home-defense-caliber/
"The .223/5.56 is moving at around 3,000 feet per second, and while it isn’t magic bullet, it’s a far cry better than any pistol round. Another advantage of the .223/5.56 is its limited penetration. The shape and velocity of the round cause it to immediately expend or dissipate its energy once it strikes something." Tiger McKee (adjunct instructor at Thunder Ranch)
https://gundigest.com/reviews/ar-15-ideal-home-defense-guns
"The pistol rounds were seemingly unaffected by the drywall and/or wood barriers. There was no observable deviation or fragmentation of the 9mm projectiles. You’d be safe counting on a pistol round to keep going, and going, and going. After all, premium pistol ammunition is designed to expand, and lose energy, when striking liquid-based targets—not walls. The full metal jacket .223 rounds tended to tumble rather than break apart when they encountered barriers." Tom McHale (contributor at AmmoLand and OutdoorHub)
http://www.outdoorhub.com/stories/2013/11/04/ar-15-appropriate-home-defense-part-one-penetration-issues/
"FBI and Independent Testing Has Consistently Shown .223/5.56 NATO Fired From AR-15’s Do Not Over Penetrate More Than Pistol/Shotgun." Caleb Lee (NRA Certified Basic Pistol & Personal Protection Inside The Home Instructor)
http://preparedgunowners.com/2016/07/14/why-high-powered-5-56-nato-223-ar-15-ammo-is-safer-for-home-defense-fbi-overpenetration-testing/
"Since all of the 5.56 mm/.223 bullets fired through the interior wall had significantly less penetration than 9 mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and 12 ga. shotgun projectiles which were fired through an interior wall, stray 5.56 mm/.223 bullets seem to offer a reduced risk of injuring innocent bystanders and an inherent reduced risk of civil litigation in situations where bullets miss their intended target and enter or exit structures. As such, 5.56mm/.223 caliber weapons may be safer to use in CQB situations and crowded urban environments than service caliber handguns or 12 ga. weapons." Dr. Gary Williams (ballistics expert)
http://www.recoilweb.com/ar-vs-shotgun-for-home-defense-again-2-of-2-39203.html#ixzz4zCOCPykZ
Those who subscribe to this principle believe that if you're concerned about overpenetration, the faster (and smaller) .223 is better for home defense than the slower (and bigger) 7.62x39 (and of course, better than even slower [and even bigger] pistol rounds).
Is there a point at which a pistol caliber starts to behave like a rifle caliber in terms of speed? Is there an accepted standard, e.g. "Any bullet that travels more than 2000 feet per second is no longer a pistol caliber, but a rifle caliber"?
Respectfully,
butlers
Mrgunsngear
03-16-19, 22:38
Is there a point at which a pistol caliber starts to behave like a rifle caliber in terms of speed?
It's a sliding scale for sure but the stretch cavity that rifles produce, as opposed to pistol round, generally occurs around the 1,900-2,200 FPS range
It's a sliding scale for sure but the stretch cavity that rifles produce, as opposed to pistol round, generally occurs around the 1,900-2,200 FPS range
This. Shotgun slugs make rifle-ish temp cavities around 1800fps because of the large surface area and mass.
As projectiles get smaller, the velocity has to increase.
.224-.30 is around 2000fps or so.
vicious_cb
03-17-19, 00:32
This. Shotgun slugs make rifle-ish temp cavities around 1800fps because of the large surface area and mass.
As projectiles get smaller, the velocity has to increase.
.224-.30 is around 2000fps or so.
Bingo! It's not as simple as upping velocity = rifle-like terminal ballistics. The SHAPE of the projectile matters alot. Take a look at 19th century lever gun ballistics, cartridges like the .45-70 in historical bullet weights are almost always traveling below the magic 1900-1800 fps and produce rifle like temporary stretch cavities. Now shoot a .30 cal steel BB at 4000 fps into gel and you almost no temporary stretch cavity.
Bingo! It's not as simple as upping velocity = rifle-like terminal ballistics. The SHAPE of the projectile matters alot. Take a look at 19th century lever gun ballistics, cartridges like the .45-70 in historical bullet weights are almost always traveling below the magic 1900-1800 fps and produce rifle like temporary stretch cavities. Now shoot a .30 cal steel BB at 4000 fps into gel and you almost no temporary stretch cavity.
Yes. Upset is a huge factor. Iirc Doc said they pushed .22” projectiles around 7,000fps and they made pin-holes because there was no upset. Each bullet has its own behavior, the mass/diameter/velocity gives it good potential.
turnburglar
03-18-19, 17:11
Yes. Upset is a huge factor. Iirc Doc said they pushed .22” projectiles around 7,000fps and they made pin-holes because there was no upset. Each bullet has its own behavior, the mass/diameter/velocity gives it good potential.
His test methodology must have been off.
a .22 at 7,000 fps is a miniature nuke.
vicious_cb
03-18-19, 18:06
His test methodology must have been off.
a .22 at 7,000 fps is a miniature nuke.
No thats 10mm. Here is the scientific proof.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b374/willbrink/BulletinGellatinComparison.jpg
His test methodology must have been off.
a .22 at 7,000 fps is a miniature nuke.
No his methodology was sound, they were testing extreme velocities with rounds designed to not upset iirc.
.. but please do continue about how DocGKR is not properly performing terminal ballistics testing.
vicious_cb
03-18-19, 22:15
No his methodology was sound, they were testing extreme velocities with rounds designed to not upset iirc.
.. but please do continue about how DocGKR is not properly performing terminal ballistics testing.
Save your sanity and dont bother arguing with people so far out of touch with reality. It isnt worth it.
Thank you all for your input.
I enjoy introducing firearms to new shooters, and I run an informal class on the differences between pistols, rifles, and shotguns. With the advent of atypically high-velocity pistol rounds and atypically low-velocity rifle rounds, I'm having a difficult time distinguishing between the two.
For example, let's say you're a range master at an indoor pistol range.
- One shooter comes in with his 10.5" suppressed 300 BLK SBR.
- The other shooter comes in with his 16.0" 10mm pistol caliber carbine.
- The first guy shoots a Hornady "A-MAX" 300 BLK bullet -- it's 208gr traveling at 915 fps (out of a 10.5" barrel) = 387 ft-lbs muzzle energy.***
- The second guy shoots a Liberty "Civil Defense" 10mm bullet -- it's 60gr traveling at ~2793 fps (out of a 16.0" barrel) = 1039 ft-lbs muzzle energy.###
You're the range master. Do you stop the first guy, the second guy, both, or neither? How do you justify/articulate your judgement call? Do you cite bullet weight? Velocity? Muzzle energy? Shape (i.e. spitzer vs non-spitzer)? Remember, one is shooting 300 BLK (originally designed as a rifle round) out of a short barreled rifle (but it's performing like a pistol); the other is shooting 10mm (originally designed as a pistol round) out of a pistol caliber carbine (but it's performing like a rifle).
Things that make you go "hmmm...."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XF2ayWcJfxo
P.S. My math:
***These figures are from this test:
https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/ultimate-300-aac-blackout-ammo-test/99395
###These figures are estimated from this data:
http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-10mm-ammo/liberty-civil-defense-60gr-2400-fps/
http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/10mm.html
10mm 60gr tests
- 4.75" barrel = 2511.5 fps
- 6.00" barrel = 2596.0 fps
- thus, 1.25" barrel difference ---> 84.5 fps difference = average 67.6 fps increase per 1" barrel
10mm 135gr tests
- 6.00" barrel = 1504.0 fps
- 8.00" barrel = 1575.0 fps
- 10.00" barrel = 1601.0 fps
- 12.00" barrel = 1653.0 fps
- 14.00" barrel = 1691.0 fps
- 16.00" barrel = 1701.0 fps
- thus, 10.00" barrel difference ---> 197.0 fps difference = average 19.7 fps increase per 1" barrel
We know that the 10mm 60gr out of a 6.00" barrel gets us to 2596.0 fps. So let's be very conservative and say that adding 10" barrel will only get us an additional 197.0 fps difference. So, we estimate that the 10mm 60gr out of a 16.00" barrel = 2793 fps.
The users of these two weapons aren't likely to care about bullet weights and muzzle velocities.
A 300 Blackout SBR is a rifle firing a rifle cartridge. If rifle calibers are allowed at the range, then they're fine. If they're not allowed, then this rifle isn't allowed.
A 10mm Auto carbine is firing a pistol cartridge. If pistol caliber carbines are allowed at the range, then they're fine. If they aren't allowed, then the rifle isn't allowed.
The easy answer is that if a cartridge was initially developed for use in a handgun, then it's a pistol caliber. If the cartridge was initially developed for use in a rifle or carbine, then it's a rifle caliber. There's little to benefit by making this more complicated than it needs to be.
The users of these two weapons aren't likely to care about bullet weights and muzzle velocities.
A 300 Blackout SBR is a rifle firing a rifle cartridge. If rifle calibers are allowed at the range, then they're fine. If they're not allowed, then this rifle isn't allowed.
A 10mm Auto carbine is firing a pistol cartridge. If pistol caliber carbines are allowed at the range, then they're fine. If they aren't allowed, then the rifle isn't allowed.
The easy answer is that if a cartridge was initially developed for use in a handgun, then it's a pistol caliber. If the cartridge was initially developed for use in a rifle or carbine, then it's a rifle caliber. There's little to benefit by making this more complicated than it needs to be.
So if you were serving as the range master at a pistol caliber-only range, and you had one shooter firing a 208gr 300 BLK projectile traveling at 915 fps (387 ft-lbs muzzle energy) and you had another firing a 60gr 10mm projectile traveling at ~2793 fps (1039 ft-lbs muzzle energy), you would kick the first guy off the range because he was firing a cartridge "initially developed for use in a rifle" but you'd be OK with the second because he was firing a cartridge "initially developed for use in a handgun"?
Yes.
Does the guy shooting the 300 Blackout have a chronograph with him to show that his ammo really is travelling at that velocity? Is he going to disassemble all his ammo to show that it's loaded with the same bullets and amount of the same powder as the round that he chrono'd for you?
Yes.
Does the guy shooting the 300 Blackout have a chronograph with him to show that his ammo really is travelling at that velocity? Is he going to disassemble all his ammo to show that it's loaded with the same bullets and amount of the same powder as the round that he chrono'd for you?
That's a fair point. I was talking in the abstract (i.e. how do I explain pistols vs. rifles to non-shooters?), but you're right: it's difficult to enforce such categorical distinctions in the real world.
vicious_cb
03-23-19, 02:24
That's a fair point. I was talking in the abstract (i.e. how do I explain pistols vs. rifles to non-shooters?), but you're right: it's difficult to enforce such categorical distinctions in the real world.
How would you know they were shooting 60gr projectiles out of their 10mm carbine? Thats such an uncommon bullet weight how often would you really see that in the real world. There are exceptions to everything. What if some guy started shooting 7.62 SLAP out of his .308 at your steel targets? I mean how uncommon do you want to go here?
How would you know they were shooting 60gr projectiles out of their 10mm carbine? Thats such an uncommon bullet weight how often would you really see that in the real world. There are exceptions to everything. What if some guy started shooting 7.62 SLAP out of his .308 at your steel targets? I mean how uncommon do you want to go here?
OK, I think we're getting off topic (my fault).
My hypothetical was designed to show the limitations of traditional definitions. When 300 BLK rifles shoot larger bullets going relatively slowly (like pistols) and 10mm pistols shoot small bullets going very fast (like rifles), the line between the two gets blurred.
So for someone who tries to educate his non-shooting friends on the subject, my original questions still stand: is there a commonly accepted muzzle energy cutoff that defines rifle vs. pistol? Or is there a minimum fps standard? The answer thus far seems to be "no" to both.
As was mentioned in a previous post, the change to "rifle-like" performance for .30 caliber projectiles is 1900fps or so. A number of years ago I asked and Doc said that the M1 Carbine did, in fact, cause "rifle-like wounds". I did not think to ask at what distance it lost this property. He also said that a .44Mag shot from a lever-action carbine causes rifle-like wounds.
My understanding is that it is the size of the temporary cavity that makes the difference, so the effective frontal area and the velocity both enter into the equation. Damage is done if the tissue is stretched too far. I used the term "effective frontal area" because if a fmj or solid bullet yaws 90 degrees, it is traveling side-on to the tissue, so the "effective frontal area" is the side profile of the bullet. This adds the complication that for a particular caliber, a long, round-nosed fmj bullet that doesn't yaw will produce less damage than one that does yaw.
turnburglar
07-01-19, 12:32
So for someone who tries to educate his non-shooting friends on the subject, my original questions still stand: is there a commonly accepted muzzle energy cutoff that defines rifle vs. pistol? Or is there a minimum fps standard? The answer thus far seems to be "no" to both.
Really simple: Rifle ammo comes in 20 round boxes while pistol ammo comes in 50 round boxes. Last time I was at the range two guys where trying to pour every ounce of knowledge on a new female shooter... she left early... Remember KISS with new shooters.
I found a quote from DocGKR in a 2011 post:
".44 Mag is a caliber that is in the transitional range between service caliber handgun loads with minimal stretch effects and rifle calibers with substantial TC damage, as in some cases .44 Mag generates a sufficiently large temporary cavity to damage susceptible inelastic tissues. Hopefully you have read: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19930. As noted, my .44 Mag general purpose load of choice is the Hornady 300 gr XTP. Another transitional caliber where TC is beginning to be a significant mechanism of wounding is the .30 Carbine when using good quality expanding ammunition like the Barnes 110 gr XPB, Rem 110 gr JSP, and Speer 110 gr Gold Dot."
9x25 Dillon gets 2000-2200fps with 80-90gr bullets from 5-6in barrels: https://www.underwoodammo.com/collections/handgun-ammo/products/9x25mm-dillon-90-grain-xtreme-defender?variant=18785701691449 & http://www.doubletapammo.net/index.php?route=product/product&path=303_372&product_id=626. If you reload you can push them faster. And you can use the Lehigh Xtreme Defender 65gr bullet to go faster still, over 2500fps from a 6in barrel. (http://10mm-firearms.com/wildcats/9x25-hit-2500fps!/)
You can convert a Glock G29 to 9x25 with just a barrel swap (or any 10mm pistol really, the G29 and G20 just have the cheapest barrels). Very easy to CCW a pistol that would have true "rifle" wounding with the right loads in 9x25 Dillon (and less recoil than 10mm too). I think this is a pretty big jump in terminal performance for pistols with a pretty low relative overall cost involved.
Lot of interesting stuff in here...
Back in 2010, MidwayUSA got strict with selling ammo to NJ. A NJ state law was instituted that shops selling pistol ammo were required to check for a NJ Firearms ID. So, I couldn’t buy pistol ammo from MidwayUSA... even though many other distributors sold it just the same (NJ law stopped at the Delaware/Hudson Rivers and NY land border). Eventually, they allowed NJ residents to upload their FID, and you could buy ammo that was restricted.
Was browsing through their rifle ammo prior to their website change (had a coupon to use), and noticed .44 Magnum was listed on the rifle ammo. Needed to pick up some LeverEvolution, which I use in me 629-1. Tossed it in my cart, figuring it would get bounced back... checked out fine. Was considering about complaining that 9mm and .45 were in the rifle list, since I had carbines that shot it... but really didn’t want to make waves.
I have been thinking about a PDW using the Lehigh Xtreme Defender 65gr bullet, in either .357 sig or 9mm.
I think these at close range out of a 6 to 7 inch barrel would be a great option, for covert carry. I am thinking of an AR pistol with a folding stock that would fit an envelope of like 17 to 18 inches, that uses Glock mags.
biggfoot44
08-13-19, 13:34
From the get go ; When it's your Club/ Commercial Range , the Rules are what you say they are .
That said , the actual important thing is your back stop , and the avoidance of hazards / damage/ undue wear thereof . Typically limitations are expressed in terms of max allowable velocity, max allowable energy, or some combination .
If you're getting philosophical about it , the questions become a contradictory can of worms .
Another approach would be ;
" Rifle Like " = Distance capabilities substantially longer than sterotypical handguns , usually in conjunction with a substantial amount of Umph ( typically ft lb , possibly momentum also ) .
At risk of being name called by the * F word * , if somthing has meaningful trajectory to 100-ish yards , and hits there with sufficient Umph to be generally fatal to a deer , that would safely be considered " rifle like " .
I have been thinking about a PDW using the Lehigh Xtreme Defender 65gr bullet, in either .357 sig or 9mm.
I think these at close range out of a 6 to 7 inch barrel would be a great option, for covert carry. I am thinking of an AR pistol with a folding stock that would fit an envelope of like 17 to 18 inches, that uses Glock mags.
If you step up to a rifle-like platform, might as well go with a full rifle cartridge IMHO. 6.8SPC is a bit of a meme but actually does pretty darn well out of very short barrels like that, better than .300blk even (in terms of velocity and energy per round that is). The real advantage to things like the 9x25 with light bullets is you can full on CCW it like you would any other pistol.
I should also mention two things:
1.) DocGKR has mentioned that he doesn't think the Lehigh Xtreme Defender bullets perform as advertised on real flesh and blood targets. There are mountains of anecdotal evidence that shows the opposite, but nothing hard enough to say for sure, at least not publicly available. I for one think they probably work a lot better than FMJs, and maybe as well as JHPs, but I don't have the time/money to do a statistically significant study on it. So use at your own discretion.
2.) The 77gr and 80gr Barnes Tac-XP all copper hollow points do expand at the 2000-2300fps mark the 9x25 pushes them to, and do not explode early traditional JHPs. So if you want rifle terminal performance from a pistol round and prefer more traditional bullet design, that is what you use.
I encourage people to check out the 9x25, the rumors about it being louder and meaner than anything else are hearsay at best. It shoots like a .40S&W with a bit more bang.
If you step up to a rifle-like platform, might as well go with a full rifle cartridge IMHO. 6.8SPC is a bit of a meme but actually does pretty darn well out of very short barrels like that, better than .300blk even (in terms of velocity and energy per round that is). The real advantage to things like the 9x25 with light bullets is you can full on CCW it like you would any other pistol.
I should also mention two things:
1.) DocGKR has mentioned that he doesn't think the Lehigh Xtreme Defender bullets perform as advertised on real flesh and blood targets. There are mountains of anecdotal evidence that shows the opposite, but nothing hard enough to say for sure, at least not publicly available. I for one think they probably work a lot better than FMJs, and maybe as well as JHPs, but I don't have the time/money to do a statistically significant study on it. So use at your own discretion.
PDW to means covert carry, which for this role I like pistol caliber weapons. The reason I like pistol caliber weapons is the smaller size of the magazines verse the size of rifle magazines, which makes carrying easier.
I am working on putting together a hunt around the first of the year where a bunch of friends are going to go out to shoot as many hogs as we can to test Lehigh bullet's in different weights and calibers.
If they work like magic, then we are in business. If they don't then we will understand the limitations of these rounds and stay with hollowpoints for our handguns and PDW.
I can certainly understand your reasoning in those circumstances. Looking forward to your results on the Xtreme Defenders on pigs!
A video worth watching.
https://youtu.be/T6kUvi72s0Y
Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk
A video worth watching.
https://youtu.be/T6kUvi72s0Y
Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk
It looks like Yoni wants to see if he can achieve damaging "rifle-like" wounds by using high velocity pistol ammo. Some ammo manufacturers claim that they have done it. I am curious to see what happens when these rounds are tested on animals.
In the video, Johann Boden, a Federal rep brings up the pertinent issue being discussed here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6kUvi72s0Y&feature=youtu.be&t=7m19s
He talks about a high velocity bullet causing "tissue damage 5, 6 inches away from the path of the bullet." This is caused by the large temporary cavity formed by the tissue as it is thrown aside by the bullet passing. Much of the soft tissue of the body can stretch a certain amount before tearing, this is the "elasticity threshold" Mr. Bowden mentions. He notes that the velocity needed by a 5.56 bullet to exceed that elasticity threshold is around 2,200 fps. A bullet with a larger effective frontal area will exceed the elasticity threshold at a lower velocity.
For example, generally a 44 mag bullet at pistol velocity (Mr. Bowden mentions 1400fps) is below that critical elasticity threshold. Testing done by Dr. Roberts showed that expanding .44 mag bullets launched at higher velocities by a carbine are above the elasticity threshold and cause "rifle-like" wounds.
Determining the "effective frontal area" can be complicated and depends on the size and shape of whichever part of the bullet is facing the direction of travel. The effective frontal area of a bullet traveling sideways (yawed 90 degrees) can be greater than one that is still traveling point forewords. This is how a small diameter non-fragmenting bullet like the Russian 5.45x39 can cause so much damage.
Very true. The actual threshold is a function of both velocity and frontal area. But velocity is generally the more important figure. For basically anything shot out of a semi-auto handgun it is going to be 2000fps+. What we really need are tests on game to confirm as you say. Looking forward to Yoni's results on pigs for that reason.
indianalex01
10-17-19, 19:52
Yes. Upset is a huge factor. Iirc Doc said they pushed .22” projectiles around 7,000fps and they made pin-holes because there was no upset. Each bullet has its own behavior, the mass/diameter/velocity gives it good potential.
Such bullshit.. I can’t even believe you fell for that crap.
Such bullshit.. I can’t even believe you fell for that crap.
If you are going to necro a thread, you should at least add something to the discussion.
indianalex01
10-18-19, 01:16
If you are going to necro a thread, you should at least add something to the discussion.
Ok I will. You posted some BS. Nobody is getting a 22cal to 7,000fps. That is a straight up lie.
What I will add is that a pistol caliber will not be a rifle. The velocity just isn’t there. 2200fps is the line where a temporary cavity becomes a permanent one. Rifles do that. Pistols calibers generally don’t.
Ok I will. You posted some BS. Nobody is getting a 22cal to 7,000fps. That is a straight up lie.
What I will add is that a pistol caliber will not be a rifle. The velocity just isn’t there. 2200fps is the line where a temporary cavity becomes a permanent one. Rifles do that. Pistols calibers generally don’t.
I was going by memory. It was in excess of 6000fps. I cant find the exact quote im thinking of, but I think its the same study he references here. https://pistol-forum.com/archive/index.php/t-8522.html
Assuming “pistol becomes rifle” means at what velocity does a tc become significant, there is no defined line to the tc threshold, there are a lot if variables including surface area, projectile shape, size, weight, and the tissue involved.
Also see https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?131098-What-is-quot-rifle-velocity-quot/page2
Edit: study here: https://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Fackler_Articles/wounding_mechanism_projectile_shape.pdf
indianalex01
10-18-19, 13:50
Deleted
Generally speaking the permanent cavity threshold is 2200 FPS. Federal Ammunition LE goes by this velocity when training Law enforcement in ballistics.
I read the thread you posted and I never mentioned the 6000 FPS you said it did. Bro, you should make sure you can back up a post if you are going to say that. It makes you look foolish
Read the study he linked.
Generally speaking the permanent cavity threshold is 2200 FPS. Federal Ammunition LE goes by this velocity when training Law enforcement in ballistics.
I read the thread you posted and I never mentioned the 6000 FPS you said it did. Bro, you should make sure you can back up a post if you are going to say that. It makes you look foolish
1. “Generally speaking” means not always, and contradicts your statement that “2200fps is the line.” Generally speaking is more accurate (because its a number in the range, so it will be correct with something), but less precise, so you really have not added anything valuable to the discussion.
2. So I have 2 options- Ill go professional with you this time:
Its there.
Clear as crystal.
If you want to look good, only call people out when you are 100% you are correct, because the opposite is devastating for your reputation. If not, it usually ends in hypocrisy, like this case you’ve provided.
Please find the below in that first link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/gcsoz4kxemccy6h/Photo%20Oct%2018%2C%205%2054%2023%20PM.jpg?raw=1
FYI, this particular thread doesn't concern terminal ballistics in living creatures.
FYI, this particular thread doesn't concern terminal ballistics in living creatures.
Go on...
It seems I confused a hypothetical scenario with the actual purpose of the thread. I also still stand behind my initial post.
Feel free to resume your "discussion".
indianalex01
10-18-19, 23:59
[QUOTE=MegademiC;2777267]1. “Generally speaking” means not always, and contradicts your statement that “2200fps is the line.” Generally speaking is more accurate (because its a number in the range, so it will be correct with something), but less precise, so you really have not added anything valuable to the discussion.
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You can go professional or what ever you want. I know what we test at Federal Ammunition. I know what the threshold that are validated by thorough testing. You can bring some 6000 FPS BS all you want too. Professional or unprofessional, I still call your post BS. I’m done wasting my time with you.
You still didn’t read the study/paper he linked, which clearly states how these velocities were achieved, and what type of projectiles were used, with help from Aberdeen.
Now that Ruger has come out with their Ruger-57 pistol chambered in 5.7x28mm:
https://ruger.com/products/ruger57/images/16401.jpg
https://ruger.com/products/ruger57/models.html
It's got folks talking:
https://www.ar15.com/forums/General/Ruger-5-7x28-pistol/5-2283563/
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?219897-The-new-Ruger-5-7x28mm
And it prompted me to revisit this thread.
Here's a commercially available 5.7x28mm load -- Elite Ammunition T6B. Pushes 27 gr at 2480 fps = 369 ft-lbs:
https://eliteammunition.com/T6B-p139748066
Question #1. Could you make the argument that this is a rifle-caliber? e.g. If you were the safety officer at a pistol-caliber only range, would you still allow it? (Does it matter whether it's fired out of a pistol or out of a carbine?)
Question #2. If we're pushing a lightweight projectile with high sectional density at over 2200fps, does that mean it'll have some of the same characteristics (e.g. dumps all of its energy quickly, breaks up in walls) that have made .223/5.56x45mm increasingly popular for home defense?
"Statements are made that the shotgun or pistol should be used because of the over-penetration problem with 5.56 carbine ammunition. This could not be further from the truth. If you conduct a little research you will find that numerous law enforcement departments, to include the FBI, have proven this to be false in most cases. The fact of the matter is that many of these bullets will penetrate numerous walls, but standard 5.56 loadings are the least of your worries when compared to pistol and shotgun fodder, which continue to take top honors in the category of over-penetration." US Army Sergeant Major Lamb (former Delta/CAG)
https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2015/5/26/the-ar-for-home-defense-one-experts-opinion
"Common pistol rounds easily penetrated all 4 walls spaced out at room distances. This is a critical issue. Think about the inside of your house and imagine if you shot through 4 walls. Could you hit a loved one? Know your target and what is behind it....The 5.56 rounds deviated greatly from the original flight path once they started tumbling. This occurred after the second wall." Old_Painless (certified Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Personal Firearms Defense, and Home Firearms Safety Instructor)
http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-12-insulated-walls/
"Proponents of the pistol for home defense like to think that because it’s 'just' a pistol round, overpenetration really won’t be an issue. Such is not the case. Drywall sheets and hollow-core doors (which are what you’ll find in the majority of homes and apartments in this country) offer almost no resistance to bullets....For years many people just assumed they knew what would happen to a rifle bullet fired indoors—it would go through every wall available and then exit the building. While armor-piercing and FMJ ammunition is specifically designed to do this, extensive testing has shown that light, extremely fast-moving .223 projectiles (including FMJs) often fragment when they hit a barrier as soft as thin plywood." James Tarr (former police officer; contributing editor for Guns and Ammo)
http://www.gunsandammo.com/ammo/long-guns-short-yardage-is-223-the-best-home-defense-caliber/
"The .223/5.56 is moving at around 3,000 feet per second, and while it isn’t magic bullet, it’s a far cry better than any pistol round. Another advantage of the .223/5.56 is its limited penetration. The shape and velocity of the round cause it to immediately expend or dissipate its energy once it strikes something." Tiger McKee (adjunct instructor at Thunder Ranch)
https://gundigest.com/reviews/ar-15-ideal-home-defense-guns
"The pistol rounds were seemingly unaffected by the drywall and/or wood barriers. There was no observable deviation or fragmentation of the 9mm projectiles. You’d be safe counting on a pistol round to keep going, and going, and going. After all, premium pistol ammunition is designed to expand, and lose energy, when striking liquid-based targets—not walls. The full metal jacket .223 rounds tended to tumble rather than break apart when they encountered barriers." Tom McHale (contributor at AmmoLand and OutdoorHub)
http://www.outdoorhub.com/stories/2013/11/04/ar-15-appropriate-home-defense-part-one-penetration-issues/
"FBI and Independent Testing Has Consistently Shown .223/5.56 NATO Fired From AR-15’s Do Not Over Penetrate More Than Pistol/Shotgun." Caleb Lee (NRA Certified Basic Pistol & Personal Protection Inside The Home Instructor)
http://preparedgunowners.com/2016/07/14/why-high-powered-5-56-nato-223-ar-15-ammo-is-safer-for-home-defense-fbi-overpenetration-testing/
"Since all of the 5.56 mm/.223 bullets fired through the interior wall had significantly less penetration than 9 mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and 12 ga. shotgun projectiles which were fired through an interior wall, stray 5.56 mm/.223 bullets seem to offer a reduced risk of injuring innocent bystanders and an inherent reduced risk of civil litigation in situations where bullets miss their intended target and enter or exit structures. As such, 5.56mm/.223 caliber weapons may be safer to use in CQB situations and crowded urban environments than service caliber handguns or 12 ga. weapons." Dr. Gary Williams (ballistics expert)
http://www.recoilweb.com/ar-vs-shotgun-for-home-defense-again-2-of-2-39203.html#ixzz4zCOCPykZ
I remember less than a decade ago, there were still many knowledgeable shooters who condemned the AR-15 for home defense because "bullets are just going to go through walls and hit your neighbor!" Thankfully, the tide has turned, and we have good people like Mr. GunsnGear dispelling the myth (starting at 13:40):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qL1s3twUA4o&t=13m40s
Question #3. If my priority was less about lethality and more about replicating some aspects of .223/5.56x45mm performance (e.g. less penetration into my kid's room), is there anything else in this category?
- commercially available (which rules out the .22 Jet)
- centerfire (which rules out the .22 WMR)
- lightweight (30-70gr)
- spitzer projectile with high sectional density (which rules out the .22 TCM)
- traveling in excess of 2200fps (which rules out most pistol calibers)
So far all I can come up with is .22 Hornet (5.6×35mmR), .221 Remington Fireball, 5.7x28mm, and 5.45x39mm. I think there are "true" (i.e. no brace) pistols chambered in all of these except for the 5.45x39mm, which again, blurs the line between pistols and rifles.
Not trying to make this a debate about the 5.7x28mm per se; just trying to have a better understanding of terminal ballistics.
At $50 for $25 nobody is going to use the Elite Ammo stuff even if it does offer some sort of increased lethality.
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Tokarev,
Thank you for your reply. That being said, I expressly said I was less concerned about lethality.
If my priority was less about lethality
At $50 for 25 nobody is going to use the Elite Ammo stuff even if it does offer some sort of increased lethality.
My three questions are:
1. Could you make the case that 5.7x28mm is a "rifle-caliber" cartridge since it breaks the 2200fps threshold?
2. If so, can it replicate some aspects of 5.56x45mm performance that have made the latter popular for home-defense (e.g. dumping energy quickly, less likely to go into other rooms, etc)?
3. Is there anything else like this? Commercially available, centerfire, lightweight (30-70gr), spitzer projectile traveling at over 2200fps?
Tokarev,
Thank you for your reply. That being said, I expressly said I was less concerned about lethality.
My three questions are:
1. Could you make the case that 5.7x28mm is a "rifle-caliber" cartridge since it breaks the 2200fps threshold?
2. If so, can it replicate some aspects of 5.56x45mm performance that have made the latter popular for home-defense (e.g. dumping energy quickly, less likely to go into other rooms, etc)?
3. Is there anything else like this? Commercially available, centerfire, lightweight (30-70gr), spitzer projectile traveling at over 2200fps?
I stand by my earlier post. Nobody will pay $2 per for a theoretical magic bullet.
Anyway:
1--probably. The elastic threshold of human tissue is a point around 2200 fps. Have we had other cartridges prior that make rifle velocities? Various necked cartridges like 218 Bee and such? Nobody uses that stuff for defense. Varmint and target shooting only.
2--depends on bullet design and construction. From what little I've seen on the 27gr FN stuff it breaks apart immediately in gel. Even with a high velocity the round still needs penetration.
3--in a "regular" sized auto pistol? Maybe some various 22 Mag loads. Again not a mainstream self-defense cartridge.
The 5.7 is pretty niche. I look forward to the Gold Dot load (not 2200 fps by the way) but it won't be a huge seller outside of a small crowd.
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1--probably. The elastic threshold of human tissue is a point around 2200 fps. Have we had other cartridges prior that make rifle velocities? Various necked cartridges like 218 Bee and such? Nobody uses that stuff for defense. Varmint and target shooting only.
2--depends on bullet design and construction. From what little I've seen on the 27gr FN stuff it breaks apart immediately in gel. Even with a high velocity the round still needs penetration.
3--in a "regular" sized auto pistol? Maybe some various 22 Mag loads. Again not a mainstream self-defense cartridge.
Thank you for your replies. I still have a lot to learn, and I appreciate you taking the time to teach me.
Thank you for your replies. I still have a lot to learn, and I appreciate you taking the time to teach me.I'm no expert.
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From what I’ve read, no. The loads are too light or too slow. You have only so much energy/momentum. The round has to expand to a certain frontal area, and have enough speed and momentum to cause a tc and penetrate enough.
That said, Id be interested in seeing a professional test of the Elite stuff, as they seem to have maximized potential.
From what I’ve read, no. The loads are too light or too slow. You have only so much energy/momentum. The round has to expand to a certain frontal area, and have enough speed and momentum to cause a tc and penetrate enough.
Physics.
Thank you for your reply.
From what I’ve read, no. The loads are too light or too slow. You have only so much energy/momentum. The round has to expand to a certain frontal area, and have enough speed and momentum to cause a tc and penetrate enough.
That said, Id be interested in seeing a professional test of the Elite stuff, as they seem to have maximized potential.The new 5.7 Gold Dot appears to be a flat profile bullet. Looks quite a bit like a 22 Mag bullet....
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The new 5.7 Gold Dot appears to be a flat profile bullet. Looks quite a bit like a 22 Mag bullet....
If Ruger normalizes/popularizes 5.7x28mm, and if the industry responds with new offerings, I wonder if "conventional wisdom" will change on the cartridge.
I'm old enough to remember a time when armchair commandos dismissed the .223/5.56x45mm as a mere varmint round. All credible professionals crowned the 12 gauge as king of CQB, "real battle rifles" were to be chambered in 7.62x51mm/.308, and the M16/M4 was for Y2K militias, not personal protection. (You can still find FUD like this at TheFiringLine or TheHighRoad.) Today, the AR platform has found widespread acceptance (and adoption) by everyone from SOF operators to soccer moms, and the .223/5.56x45mm is a consensus recommendation for home defense. This is not your father's Vietnam-era ball M193; the market has responded and bullet technology has gotten better.
tl;dr: big-and-heavy (e.g. .308, .45ACP) is fading; light-and-fast (e.g. 5.56, 9mm) is trending. Will 5.7x28mm ride the wave, or will physics get in the way?
Tokarev,
My three questions are:
1. Could you make the case that 5.7x28mm is a "rifle-caliber" cartridge since it breaks the 2200fps threshold?
2. If so, can it replicate some aspects of 5.56x45mm performance that have made the latter popular for home-defense (e.g. dumping energy quickly, less likely to go into other rooms, etc)?
3. Is there anything else like this? Commercially available, centerfire, lightweight (30-70gr), spitzer projectile traveling at over 2200fps?1. You wouldn't be getting rifle grade performance. The "2200 FPS threshold" is a myth. Temporary cavity isn't solely dependent on velocity, there's no magic number where it suddenly becomes relevant.
Temporary cavity formation is likely largely dependent on drag resistance, which in turn is dependent on 3 primary factors, so far as we can choose/control from a terminal perspective: Instantaneous velocity, frontal area, and projectile shape. Inadequate frontal area and projectile form can lead to minimal wounding even at high velocities. See Fackler's testing of 5.45x39 FMJ in an anesthetized pig, where the bullet tumbled and yet caused no real additional damage in lung, intestine, or thigh tissue beyond what was directly crushed. On the flip side, shotgun slugs traveling at only ~1600 FPS can cause substantial radial wounding.
Effective fragmentation can massively increase the damage caused by the temporary cavity, as it reduces the ability of the damaged tissue to stretch.
In the case of the loading you linked, it looks like it breaks into 2 pieces, which doesn't really constitute effective fragmentation; jacket and core separation in a conventional hollowpoint would have the same effect. Otherwise, the frontal area is very low and the shape of the bullet would not likely have an inherently high drag coefficient. The muzzle velocity is high, but it's possible the bullet may decelerate quickly given the low mass. Keep in mind that the velocity component of drag at any given point along the wound track is based on how fast the projectile is traveling at the present point, not how fast it was traveling earlier.
2. It would probably reduce overpenetration, yes. Light and fast projectiles tend to destabilize and lose momentum pretty quickly when encountering barriers. A 27 gr bullet that breaks into two pieces might go through fewer walls than even some .223 varmint loadings, or at least, probably not much worse.
3. Based on my limited knowledge of cartridge variety, no. It seems like you've got most of the bases covered in that regard.
Though, technically, most service calibers can theoretically obtain velocities of over 2200 FPS given a light enough projectile.
Shot placement followed by adequate penetration will continue to be the true factors governing incapacitation.
Rifle rounds extend the distance at which these two can be applied while the handgun is best suited for applying these up close and/or when carrying a rifle around is not practical.
Shotguns seem largely overlooked in the equation due to weight, recoil and capacity. And while a slug certainly has the penetration aspect it seems buckshot may not. I remember reading something a few years ago regarding Jim Cirillo and his use of various firearms. From what I remember he said something like, "People hit with 00 buck would run away to be found dead later." Bleeding? Yes. Penetration to reach central nervous system or main arteries? No.
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vicious_cb
01-01-20, 14:03
The new 5.7 Gold Dot appears to be a flat profile bullet. Looks quite a bit like a 22 Mag bullet....
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Im not holding my breath, a company tried to used lightweight TSX bullets in the 5.7 a while back, the results were underwhelming. I dont think the 5.7 has enough momentum to get both significant expansion and adequate penetration, its more like pick one with the 5.7.
Im not holding my breath, a company tried to used lightweight TSX bullets in the 5.7 a while back, the results were underwhelming. I dont think the 5.7 has enough momentum to get both significant expansion and adequate penetration, its more like pick one with the 5.7.You're probably quite right.
Bullets built for rifle, as basically all the readily available. 224" bullets are, aren't likely to work well at 1,700 fps.
With that said, there is a 37gr bullet from Maker Bullets in GA that might work. It would be longer than a conventional cup and core so it might take up too much case capacity. But if that bullet can be driven to something like 2,000 fps it might actually expand although it is doubtful it'll reach 12-18" in gel.
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1. You wouldn't be getting rifle grade performance. The "2200 FPS threshold" is a myth. Temporary cavity isn't solely dependent on velocity, there's no magic number where it suddenly becomes relevant.
Temporary cavity formation is likely largely dependent on drag resistance, which in turn is dependent on 3 primary factors, so far as we can choose/control from a terminal perspective: Instantaneous velocity, frontal area, and projectile shape. Inadequate frontal area and projectile form can lead to minimal wounding even at high velocities. See Fackler's testing of 5.45x39 FMJ in an anesthetized pig, where the bullet tumbled and yet caused no real additional damage in lung, intestine, or thigh tissue beyond what was directly crushed. On the flip side, shotgun slugs traveling at only ~1600 FPS can cause substantial radial wounding.
Effective fragmentation can massively increase the damage caused by the temporary cavity, as it reduces the ability of the damaged tissue to stretch.
In the case of the loading you linked, it looks like it breaks into 2 pieces, which doesn't really constitute effective fragmentation; jacket and core separation in a conventional hollowpoint would have the same effect. Otherwise, the frontal area is very low and the shape of the bullet would not likely have an inherently high drag coefficient. The muzzle velocity is high, but it's possible the bullet may decelerate quickly given the low mass. Keep in mind that the velocity component of drag at any given point along the wound track is based on how fast the projectile is traveling at the present point, not how fast it was traveling earlier.
2. It would probably reduce overpenetration, yes. Light and fast projectiles tend to destabilize and lose momentum pretty quickly when encountering barriers. A 27 gr bullet that breaks into two pieces might go through fewer walls than even some .223 varmint loadings, or at least, probably not much worse.
3. Based on my limited knowledge of cartridge variety, no. It seems like you've got most of the bases covered in that regard.
Though, technically, most service calibers can theoretically obtain velocities of over 2200 FPS given a light enough projectile.
Great summary. Without mass and bullet design also being factored in, velocity would seem but one metric that can't stand alone. Intellectual exercise: if you could get a needle to travel at 10k FPS, what would its terminal performance look like? It would poke needle sized holes with a tiny perm wound track and little else due to lts low mass and very small cross sectional area etc. I suspect.
Conversely, DocGR, a student of Fackler commented that .44 mag approached rifle - like terminal ballistics dependent on barrel length, I recall due to stretch cavity effects, but I don't recall exact details.
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