View Full Version : RIP Rafi Eitan
http://www.israeltoday.co.il/Default.aspx?tabid=178&nid=36269
Rafi Eitan had a long and storied history as a master spy in the service of Israel’s vaunted Mossad intelligence agency. He is perhaps best known as the man who nabbed the "architect of the Nazi Holocaust," Adolf Eichmann, during a daring covert operation in Argentina in 1960.
worth reading the story on that link :)
what a life and the stories he would never have told would have been epic I bet !!
seen him on quite a few shows and loved the guys demeanor and character
Given that he was responsible for the Jonathan Pollard operation against the US, he also participated in attacks against the British when it was a British territory. He also committed acts which would be considered terrorism today when he murdered two members of the German Templar community to deter other community members from returning to their home.
All in all, not nearly as bad as some of the acts committed by those who were members of the Stern Gang or Irgun and went on to become Prime Minister in one example, but still not on my "great guy" list.
Rafi was a giant.
He was not perfect, because nobody is. Most of what he did will not be know for many decades to come.
I will miss him.
Given that he was responsible for the Jonathan Pollard operation against the US, he also participated in attacks against the British when it was a British territory. He also committed acts which would be considered terrorism today when he murdered two members of the German Templar community to deter other community members from returning to their home.
All in all, not nearly as bad as some of the acts committed by those who were members of the Stern Gang or Irgun and went on to become Prime Minister in one example, but still not on my "great guy" list.
fair enough :)
dude was still a legend intelligence is a rough trade for sure ;)
templer affiliate of the nazi party and many were card carrying nazis ? so no loss IMHO :)
well our country was founded on going against the british :) hahahahahh sorry had to throw that in
Pollard was a spy
a spy is a spy I can't blame the people turning them as much as the spy themselves ?
Yoni said it nobody is perfect but the guy was a giant in the intelligence world
still sitting down if the guy would open up I bet would have been insane to hear
I had the privaledge to hear him expound on things more than a few times.
It takes men of giant character to build a country and he was a giant
fair enough :)
dude was still a legend intelligence is a rough trade for sure ;)
templer affiliate of the nazi party and many were card carrying nazis ? so no loss IMHO :)
well our country was founded on going against the british :) hahahahahh sorry had to throw that in
Pollard was a spy
a spy is a spy I can't blame the people turning them as much as the spy themselves ?
Yoni said it nobody is perfect but the guy was a giant in the intelligence world
still sitting down if the guy would open up I bet would have been insane to hear
I can be pretty objective about most things. I can understand why somebody would be willing to use credible intelligence that benefits their country, even if it was sourced from a traitor in an ally country.
I can even accept the things that happened in the civil war over there, two groups wanted the same thing and one group won.
But when you are killing non combatants to terrorize a community that you want to drive out of an area, that crosses a line.
If a German intelligence officer killed two Polish jews for the same purposes he would be considered a war criminal. That's the only one that really crosses the line for me and you would think that a group that was very recently subjected to the same kind of treatment would realize why it is always wrong.
I fully get that Israel is the only thing close to a real ally in the region, and guys like Eitan did things that were a benefit to everyone like taking out Iraqs nuclear facility, but some of them also did some very questionable things in the past and they don't always seem like an ally.
Wish we lived in a world where Israel simply came to us with the stuff Pollard gave them and said "WTF dude..." and we simply started sharing intelligence that was of mutual importance and worked together. But I guess we don't live in that world.
SteyrAUG
A couple of things, first all nations spy on each other even friends and allies.
Second, in the start of a nation sometimes things happen, that many years latter may not be viewed the same way they were at the time.
Last no person and no nation get's it right 100% of the time.
SteyrAUG
A couple of things, first all nations spy on each other even friends and allies.
Second, in the start of a nation sometimes things happen, that many years latter may not be viewed the same way they were at the time.
Last no person and no nation get's it right 100% of the time.
I get all that. I even understand that Israel gained territory during the 6 days war. They won that fair and square when enemy forces tried to take land from them.
I guess my first misgivings were that the idea for the creation of a jewish homeland was already the property of somebody else, and I don't mean the Palestinians, I mean the British. They rightfully understood the British were probably not too invested in this barren land that produces no oil and is full of problematic people, but things like the bombing of the Kind David Hotel were simply wrong.
Now I know when the US wanted to displace the people who were already here we did all kinds of horrible things from treaties we never meant to fully honor to small pox infested blankets given as gifts. Bad stuff does indeed happen.
But what makes Israel unique, at least in my mind, was they had just been shown a true demonstration of real evil and the very important distinction between right and wrong. And we had the Nuremberg trials to drive home that point. So how is it that within a decade they are using some of the exact same methods to drive people out of land they felt they had a "racial / religious" justification for and in way that echoed ideas of lebensraum with "chosen people" simply replacing "aryan"?
Jews and the Palis definitely felt they had equal claim, and at the end of the day one of them was going to replace the other, so that's kind of a wash. But when you adopt the methods of the people you just declared "the most evil nation on earth" haven't you betrayed some very core concepts?
I ask only because I think the British would have eventually left with far less motivation, just as they were giving up colonies that were actually productive the the UK.
The civil war would have eventually happened, but if it happened without things like the King David Hotel bombings, I think the european jews fighting to create a homeland would have received more direct international support.
Certainly I think they could have taken the higher road when dealing with non palestinians such as the Templar community. I appreciate the thought of a German community within the new jewish homeland probably gave some people concern, but it's not the same Germans. These were the Germans who were fine living among jews, arabs and the like. Acts of terrorism I don't believe were necessary and a demonstration of peaceful coexistence with a very small Templar community would have shown the Palestinians in a very negative light and shown future Israeli's were truly devoted to peace.
At least that's what I think. Try and take the high road, but if they pull a Munich by all means hunt them down and kill them all. It still sickens me that Jamal Al-Gashey is apparently still alive and being protected.
As for allies spying on allies, I know most of that was Pollard believing he had a religious mandate to help Israel, which is still treason and violation of all of his oaths, and that Eitan was simply the facilitator. I can accept the betrayal of Pollard, but I think Eitan should have come to us and "rightly" requested some greater transparency and assistance. It could have simply been handled better and I think Reagan would have ultimately been cooperative.
The stupid games and stunts pulled by both Pollard and the government of Israel regarding the Pollard case certainly did nothing to improve relations. And at the end of the day we have so many problems with Israel's neighbors that we just don't have time for bad relations and hurt feelings with Israel.
One day, sooner or later, we are going to find ourselves together in a scary boat and we will both regret the stupid shit we both sometimes do. Certainly France will be unlikely to show up and help us deal with the problem of a nuclear Iranian state.
Moose-Knuckle
03-26-19, 05:44
Rafi was a giant.
He was not perfect, because nobody is. Most of what he did will not be know for many decades to come.
I will miss him.
He was a very unassuming man. Most people would pass him on the street and think he was an infirmed professor or something but he was a dyed in the wool face shooter.
I admire him most for recruiting Otto Skorzeny as no one else could.
For those that don't know who Shorzeny was he was an SS-Obersturmbannführer in the Waffen-SS who led the mission to rescue Mussolini, he was Hitler's favorite commando and was considered the most dangerous man in Europe for decades. Everyone wanted to recruit him after the war; the Americans, the Brits, the Russians, etc.
Mr. Eitan turned him and used him to hunt down and eliminate a unit of Germans developing long range missiles for Egypt. Most people would probably not understand why the Mossad would work with AND protect an SS commando but as they saying goes; "politics make strange bed fellows".
Fascinating life.
If we had used the methods of the Nazis as was stated above, would we have the issues we have today with the Palestinians?
Don't think so, we would have killed them all a long time ago.
King David hotel was called and told to evacuate the building, they didn't people died.
My understanding about Pollard was intelligence was being with held, so we used Pollard to get it. Israel used this intelligence to help us take out the Iraqi facility. If we had not done so, then America never would have gone to war with Iraq twice.
Since the second Iraq war made the Middle East worse and I think the only people Sadaam would have nuked was Iran maybe we made a mistake.
nevermind but as ever
Victims, aren't we all.....?
If we had used the methods of the Nazis as was stated above, would we have the issues we have today with the Palestinians?
Don't think so, we would have killed them all a long time ago.
I very specifically didn't draw a direct parallel. Obviously there were no trains or industrialized death camps. I cited a very specific incident and noted why I find it extremely objectionable. And honestly if the Israeli's were just another group like the Pali's I wouldn't have too much to say about it. My criticism comes from a higher expectation of Israel. I tried to make that clear.
King David hotel was called and told to evacuate the building, they didn't people died.
A phone call does not absolve a terrorist of his actions when a building is blown up. Nor does it place the responsibility of the victims on the victims.
My understanding about Pollard was intelligence was being with held, so we used Pollard to get it. Israel used this intelligence to help us take out the Iraqi facility. If we had not done so, then America never would have gone to war with Iraq twice.
Since the second Iraq war made the Middle East worse and I think the only people Sadaam would have nuked was Iran maybe we made a mistake.
I don't see what taking out Saddam's nuclear capacity has to do with their border dispute with Kuwait. Kuwaiti slant oil drilling methods (borrowed from the US) is what led to the first gulf war along with the UN failure to resolve the problem and the US refusal to mediate a solution.
But Pollard gave Israel way more than that. Of course from my perspective it shouldn't have been necessary as we should have already been sharing most of that intelligence with Israel in the first place. We rely on them for information, and occasionally "deniable action" so it should have been more of a two way street.
Very interesting discussion. Refreshing to see two people these days attempting to have a nuanced argument over complex issues. My take is pretty strait forward:
Rafi Eitan was an Israeli patriot and a fighter for Israelis and Jews. He put that mission above all else. He was perfectly right to recruit Pollard. In turn, Pollard betrayed his country and should have been put in front of a wall and shot. Rafi was an intelligence officer doing his job for his country. Pollard is a traitor. I am an adult and can hold both those thoughts in my head at the same time.
If we thought the British had information critical to our survival, and they were not giving it to us, the CIA should work to turn someone in England. That is the role of the case officer. The hypothetical Brit who collaborated with the CIA would be a traitor and basically deserves whatever happens to him.
Looking at the King David Hotel, and other Israeli abuses.... The Israelis should be criticized. NOw having said that, 6 million Jews were killed in World War 2. Perhaps a touch of paranoia and excessive violence is understandable. Look at us, 3,000 people were killed on 911, and we got Prism, the Patriot Act, Rendition, Gitmo, and all manner of questionable behavior. Can you imagine what we would have done if we lost 6 million?
I admire Mr. Eitan for his service to his people and his country, even if I don't love everything that he did on their behalf.
My criticism comes from a higher expectation of Israel. I tried to make that clear.
I also held myself to a high standard and also demand that my country maintain a high standard.
A phone call does not absolve a terrorist of his actions when a building is blown up. Nor does it place the responsibility of the victims on the victims.
The King David hotel was the British headquarters, so one could argue it was a legit target. I think a phone call shows intent not to take human life and the mission was to disrupt the work of the military government.
Our enemies have never once picked up the phone.
But Pollard gave Israel way more than that. Of course from my perspective it shouldn't have been necessary as we should have already been sharing most of that intelligence with Israel in the first place. We rely on them for information, and occasionally "deniable action" so it should have been more of a two way street.
Pollard was a turd, and for reasons having nothing to do with Rafi, he should still be behind bars.
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