View Full Version : Average shooter vs "Trained shooter"
So I see a lot of posts on this forum, about people that buy "cheap/garbage Ar's" and that they don't shoot them enough to know that they are "garbage".
So my question is, what do the people posting these statements think is the right amount of range time/rounds down range to qualify them to professionally report on what is GTG or NOT? What amount makes you no longer average?
Because I shoot at least 2-3 times a week with the same 3-4 people, EVERY week and I have to disagree with what is junk or not. I can pretty much guarantee I put in more time at the range than most on this website. I have both and so do the guys I shoot with highend AR's Noveske, Colt. I also have the so called "GARBAGE Del-Ton, Ruger AR's" and guess what? I have no problems with any of them and truthfully I shoot my "lowend AR's" more than any of my highend. I have a *&#@ ton of rounds through my cheap AR's and rarely clean them. I take them out on 3-4 day hunts where we are hiking all day & night through the desert and them perform flawlessly!
I am not saying that a Del-Ton is the same quality as a Colt or BCM etc.... But they do and will last and handle hard use. I just think that we should be a little more opened minded to the lower end market, they have their place and actually perform quite well!!
This thread was not meant to start an argument, just want to point out that maybe some of us need to actually give things a try before judging. Or, maybe a few of us need to be honest with ourselves and stop acting like we actually use our rifles enough to actually judge other peoples choices on cheaper rifle purchases.
Dr. Bullseye
03-25-19, 22:36
I am just a guy who stumbled onto ARs. I did some research and visited some gun shops before buying. Finally, I decided to buy what my local gun shop sold. I am way out in the country and buying from him supports him and gains entry to his advice. His advice has never been wrong. My AR is not the cheapest nor the most expensive but it works just fine. I shoot about twice a month and have been shooting for about three years. I am perfectly happy with my AR. If and when my grandson (who is into guns) decides to build an AR as he said he wants to do, I would recommend Del-Ton. I have ordered from them and they have coached me on the phone and they have gone out of their way to make sure the tiny parts I ordered were correct. I think they are a fine company and have their catalog. As you can see, I am no expert but simply a guy who wants to wake up every day and learn something new.
I am not sure what a bad AR really is.
I am just a guy who stumbled onto ARs. I did some research and visited some gun shops before buying. Finally, I decided to buy what my local gun shop sold. I am way out in the country and buying from him supports him and gains entry to his advice. His advice has never been wrong. My AR is not the cheapest nor the most expensive but it works just fine. I shoot about twice a month and have been shooting for about three years. I am perfectly happy with my AR. If and when my grandson (who is into guns) decides to build an AR as he said he wants to do, I would recommend Del-Ton. I have ordered from them and they have coached me on the phone and they have gone out of their way to make sure the tiny parts I ordered were correct. I think they are a fine company and have their catalog. As you can see, I am no expert but simply a guy who wants to wake up every day and learn something new.
I am not sure what a bad AR really is.
Always nice to see a new AR fan! Always have an open mind to everyone's input when it comes to AR's. I personally have no problem with cheap AR's, but I also love my highend AR's.
When it comes to what is or is not a bad AR. Unfortunately a lot of people get caught up in brand names, don't get me wrong the brand names are GREAT but the cheap AR's will perform great also they just don't have the pedigree!
A number of years ago (11, I'm getting very old) , I beat the shit out of a Rock River 16" mid length to see if it would fail. Wolf 55 grain steel cased. I loaded 500 rounds and did mag dumps. I did shoot at a B 27 target to make myself feel like it wasn't a complete waste, but it kinda was. Nothing went wrong, the barrel got very hot, I gave the rifle to a really good friend and he still shoots it now and it is fine. I personally don't buy anything that anyone on this forum would not consider tier 1 because it makes me feel better, which it is really all about. I make myself shoot once a week, even if its ****ing snowing. I'm not even sure how much I like shooting anymore. Most people will never get into a gunfight with their AR, but the ones who have and live to post about it, will mentally give themselves every advantage, real or perceived, that they possibly can.
A number of years ago (11, I'm getting very old) , I beat the shit out of a Rock River 16" mid length to see if it would fail. Wolf 55 grain steel cased. I loaded 500 rounds and did mag dumps. I did shoot at a B 27 target to make myself feel like it wasn't a complete waste, but it kinda was. Nothing went wrong, the barrel got very hot, I gave the rifle to a really good friend and he still shoots it now and it is fine. I personally don't buy anything that anyone on this forum would not consider tier 1 because it makes me feel better, which it is really all about. I make myself shoot once a week, even if its ****ing snowing. I'm not even sure how much I like shooting anymore. Most people will never get into a gunfight with their AR, but the ones who have and live to post about it, will mentally give themselves every advantage, real or perceived, that they possible can.
I have used an AR for what they were intended for and trained with them for 8 years. I have no problem using a Del-ton, PSA, Ruger, etc... In a gunfight! And I have no problem using a highend AR also!
It's just like with anything, there is a reason certain parts and materials were chosen as "quality." Whether or not the shooter will ever see why really depends on the round count, and volumes of fire.
I had issues within 300 rounds with my S&W since it was overgassed. So, I add a heavier buffer, problems end. Now, get a BCM. Would that happen? No. I put over 3k through BCM and nothing has went wrong.
Now, will I break a BCM before a S&W? No clue, probably not. I have broke the buffer retaining pin from Del-Ton, though. I have also seen someone install a cheap light trigger and get light primer strikes, and a unstaked castle nut back out.
It's just like with anything, there is a reason certain parts and materials were chosen as "quality." Whether or not the shooter will ever see why really depends on the round count, and volumes of fire.
I had issues within 300 rounds with my S&W since it was overgassed. So, I add a heavier buffer, problems end. Now, get a BCM. Would that happen? No. I put over 3k through BCM and nothing has went wrong.
Now, will I break a BCM before a S&W? No clue, probably not. I have broke the buffer retaining pin from Del-Ton, though. I have also seen someone install a cheap light trigger and get light primer strikes, and a unstaked castle nut back out.
The problem with that train of thought "certain parts, quality..Mil-spec" the government chooses the lowest bidder when it comes to contracts. Always has and always will, so what does that really say about Colt and FN?
The problem with that train of thought "certain parts, quality..Mil-spec" the government chooses the lowest bidder when it comes to contracts. Always has and always will, so what does that really say about Colt and FN?
Not sure, but Colt's seem to be well made, I've seen very abused M4 still running fine. If a cheaper material could be used, I'm sure the government would use it, but the Mil spec has stayed, and been proven. There is no way you can say it hasn't.
Now have cheaper AR's been proven? Sure. As I said though, the only issues I have had with an AR is from cheap manufactures. YMMV.
The problem with that train of thought "certain parts, quality..Mil-spec" the government chooses the lowest bidder when it comes to contracts. Always has and always will, so what does that really say about Colt and FN?
No, the GOV chooses the lowest bidder if all other things are equal and they meet the required standard. Colt and FN meet that standard.
We can talk all we want about how X gun is just as good, or question why you experience good times with cheap weapons, but it doesn’t change there is a standard that must be met under contract. It certainly isn’t just a low ball bidfest.
So the GOV is just looking for the lowest bidder? Like for F-22's or ballistic missile submarines or small arms?
You're not going to find the answer you're looking for.
Does your rifle work? Great! Move on.
Did something on your rifle break? That sucks. Replace the part with something from a quality brand and move on.
A lot of these budget brands are capable of making a functioning, reliable rifle. Just keep in mind that they cut corners somewhere or another, whether it is materials or quality control. Just because YOUR rifle didn't have any issues, doesn't mean issues don't exist due to these "cost saving" measures. My PSA is perfectly fine, but there are a lot of others that are not.
Don't seek the validation of others for your budget choice. Just enjoy it.
The point of buying a better gun is to reduce chance of failure.
Every manufacturer has guns that work and every manufacturer has guns that dont. Better QC reduces the chance of a gun malfunctioning.
That sample of 1 isnt enough to show my point.
That's great that you have good experience with your bargain bin ARs. However you're a sample size of one. Talk to instructors who hold regular carbine classes and you'll hear a lot about students who roll up with DPMS, DelTon, Spikes, no-name parts builds, etc and end up being the ones who hold up the class with their persistent malfunctions.
No one said those guns never run, you're just much more likely to run into defects and issues with cheaper guns because they don't spend the money on QC
I have a Noveske, two Colts, a BCM and a few PSA’s. They all shoot fine, but if I ever NEED one it won’t be a PSA.
You have no idea what you are talking about.
The problem with that train of thought "certain parts, quality..Mil-spec" the government chooses the lowest bidder when it comes to contracts. Always has and always will, so what does that really say about Colt and FN?
You have no idea what you are talking about.
You can lead them Gunz, but you can’t make them drink....
Five_Point_Five_Six
03-26-19, 07:54
So I see a lot of posts on this forum, about people that buy "cheap/garbage Ar's" and that they don't shoot them enough to know that they are "garbage".
So my question is, what do the people posting these statements think is the right amount of range time/rounds down range to qualify them to professionally report on what is GTG or NOT? What amount makes you no longer average?
Because I shoot at least 2-3 times a week with the same 3-4 people, EVERY week and I have to disagree with what is junk or not. I can pretty much guarantee I put in more time at the range than most on this website. I have both and so do the guys I shoot with highend AR's Noveske, Colt. I also have the so called "GARBAGE Del-Ton, Ruger AR's" and guess what? I have no problems with any of them and truthfully I shoot my "lowend AR's" more than any of my highend. I have a *&#@ ton of rounds through my cheap AR's and rarely clean them. I take them out on 3-4 day hunts where we are hiking all day & night through the desert and them perform flawlessly!
I am not saying that a Del-Ton is the same quality as a Colt or BCM etc.... But they do and will last and handle hard use. I just think that we should be a little more opened minded to the lower end market, they have their place and actually perform quite well!!
I'd love to see some pics of these high end ARs and budget ARs that were put through so much hard use for you to form this opinion.
The point of buying a better gun is to reduce chance of failure.
Every manufacturer has guns that work and every manufacturer has guns that dont. Better QC reduces the chance of a gun malfunctioning.
That sample of 1 isnt enough to show my point.
This. Better quality = better function.
Mag dumping 500 rounds in one sitting shouldn't be a big deal for most firearms. Heck, I go out most range days and put around 400 rounds downrange on a rifle, maybe 200 in a pistol. That's my average day, maybe 2-3 days monthly. Doesn't make me an expert, nor do I claim to be. I don't even claim to be a very good marksman or avid shooter.
But my S&W M&P-15OR had issues in the first 500 rounds (possibly from switching brass to steel case, but it never improved even with cleaning). My PSA's have been about 50/50 (mostly issues with the non-5.56 flavors). My go-to gun is a Colt or a DD/BCM. Both of those have been through classes with 500+ round days (usually 2-day courses), shot in the summer heat and humidity in South Carolina, their torrential rains, and the snow in Kentucky. The DD recently got a supressor and has at least 500 rounds without issue. I have over 3K rounds through each (granted, not a huge number) but no issues with either. I also have a KAC 11.5 SBR that's getting close to that number that I use in my run N gun matches - weather ranging from 30-90 degrees and drug through mud pits, banged around when I run, dropped, clattered against rocks, rested on car doors, etc.
Notice I didn't put the S&W or PSA through those events?
You’d hate me and my guns.
Op, if cheap rifles were just as good as proper ones, the University of Science, Math, and Culture probably wouldn’t have so many that say Colt, FN, and HK on the magwells. I’m sure they’d love to save a few bucks.
Of the dozen or so AR’s and AR barrels I own, my PSA barrel is the only one that is not threaded properly. Something I never would have noticed had I not tried to mount a suppressor. And my RRA trigger is the only one that I’ve deadlined due to rust. I also deadlined another trigger in just 1000 rounds due to wear. You are correct that most people don’t shoot enough to find the cut corners, or tinker enough to find the reverse engineering errors. But honestly, with the prices that Colt 6920’s have been going for at LE oriented stores, you’d be crazy to buy a RRA, Bushy, or DPMS.
There is no free lunch.
OP is no longer with us, action unrelated to this thread. Thread can stay open and take its natural course. Have a great Tuesday, everyone.
bamashooter
03-26-19, 09:33
I'm open to many of them and have used assorted ones in the military, as a government civilian, elsewhere. Regarding the statement of the government relying solely on low-bid is incorrect. Stringent requirements, to the point at times of being a little anal at times, are the norm for combat gear. And it wasn't unusual for equipment / firearms, ammunition, etc to be what we called "sole-sourced". In other words, there's this particular weapon, etc that is desired and Uncle Sugar knows this one manufacturer can do it, regardless of costs. It bypasses the normal procurement bureaucracy. That sole manufacturer will be given the contract; blah, blah, blah. Not an everyday deal but not unusual. I know this as fact.
As a government civilian, "they" sent me and others at times to "contracting" school. I kid you not. An "item" would be shown as needed. the contract let to company ABC. As the "contract monitor", it was my duty to oversee the fulfillment of the contract by "monitoring" it to include, periodic disburing of funds, meeting timeline schedules, testing, the actual "deliverables", etc. Though it sounds like a screwed up "all other duties as assigned" affair, I actually enjoyed it at times, learned a lot and really appreciated the interaction I had at times with the manufacturing and testing side of equipment and gear. This also provided me the opportunity to work with the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) a time or two. They're the DoD equivalent of Disneyland. So anyway, there's my .02.
Doc Safari
03-26-19, 11:08
I just want to address this "lowest bidder = crap" fallacy.
In the first place, I worked in procurement. The proper phrase is "lowest QUALIFIED bidder." You can also add to that "lowest qualified bidder THAT MEETS THE REQUIRED SPECIFICATIONS."
The government sets the specifications, as well as the means to verify the vendor is following them (even if the government doesn't always follow through when it should). The jokes about $600 toilet seats, whether true or not, often speak of all the things that go into procurement, like writing specifications, getting samples (or knowing the vendors reputation), testing examples, verifying specs, awarding contracts, etc.
So, if a maker like Colt produces M16's for the government you can rest assured a team of qualified people wrote the specifications and Colt has to stick to them and be able to prove it. Having said that, we live in an imperfect world and when you have all these people and complicated standards involved, things do occasionally go wrong and bad product slips through. But the bottom line is the "lowest qualified bidder" has to meet and maintain the specifications set forth in the awarded contract. You at least have the assurance that a minimum acceptable standard is being met for the most part.
The other standard is COTS, or 'COMMERCIAL OFF THE SHELF', and what limited experience I have with that, COTS is where the government purchases a pre-existing product deemed to be acceptable to satisfy a contractual requirement, and IMHO that's where a lot of error is introduced.
That's great that you have good experience with your bargain bin ARs. However you're a sample size of one. Talk to instructors who hold regular carbine classes and you'll hear a lot about students who roll up with DPMS, DelTon, Spikes, no-name parts builds, etc and end up being the ones who hold up the class with their persistent malfunctions.
No one said those guns never run, you're just much more likely to run into defects and issues with cheaper guns because they don't spend the money on QC
Spikes Tactical is budget grade? I know they aren't highly thought of over here but I haven't heard much about them shitting the bed often. They even put their money where their mouth is regarding certifications on their testing and barrel steel. But please do correct me if I'm wrong, knowledge is power, and all that jazz :cool:
Disclaimer: I don't own anything Spikes Tactical nor will in the future, just curious.
wetidlerjr
03-26-19, 12:30
I just want to address this "lowest bidder = crap" fallacy.
In the first place, I worked in procurement. The proper phrase is "lowest QUALIFIED bidder." You can also add to that "lowest qualified bidder THAT MEETS THE REQUIRED SPECIFICATIONS."...
...The other standard is COTS, or 'COMMERCIAL OFF THE SHELF', and what limited experience I have with that, COTS is where the government purchases a pre-existing product deemed to be acceptable to satisfy a contractual requirement, and IMHO that's where a lot of error is introduced.
Exactly! The nonsense about low bidder meaning low quality is just so much BS.
BusinessDictionary definition:
"Qualified bidder with the lowest or best bid price, and whose business and financial capabilities, past performance, and reputation meet the required standards"
Read more: http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/lowest-responsible-bidder.html
My dad has a Bushmaster. He's taken it to the range once (family range trip). It's overgassed AF but worked for the entire mag that was shot through it, but hasn't seen any use since. This was probably 2 years ago. I was over his place around Thanksgiving and he asked me to clean and lube it for him. The castle nut was loose and his receiver extension was about to fall off. :cool: #justasgoodas
vicious_cb
03-26-19, 14:41
This thread was not meant to start an argument, just want to point out that maybe some of us need to actually give things a try before judging. Or, maybe a few of us need to be honest with ourselves and stop acting like we actually use our rifles enough to actually judge other peoples choices on cheaper rifle purchases.
This thread is a joke. Its based on the assumption that people on this board have never tried or pushed cheaper brands in actual use. Yes, I have personal experience with cheaper brands and Ive had problems with them. More importantly Ive talked to instructors and shop owners who have seen and worked on more ARs than I will ever see in my see lifetime who DOCUMENT the problems they've had with various brands.
Also I like how you call Colt "high end", really? Colt is the MINIMUM std. of quality one should look for in a fighting AR.
voiceofreason
03-26-19, 14:45
There is a reason why quality equipment is recommended and used by those that push their limits daily.
Most owners will not push their gear to their limits or even shoot out a barrel, so they won't notice nearly as many failure points. But when your outfit/cadre/armory goes through multiple high round count rifles, you being to notice patterns and over time it becomes clearer and clearer why some are better than others.
9mm Glocks have earned their reps as have Colt carbines. A Remington R1 or Del-ton may work great for a guy that shoots 200 rds a year. Doesn't mean that if you issued 1000 of each to a department and checked the reliability in 3 years you'll get the same result.
You’d hate me and my guns.
Same here. The carbines I used as loaners for my classes would make some people cringe, but they kept running with regular maintenance.
This thread is a joke. Its based on the assumption that people on this board have never tried or pushed cheaper brands in actual use. Yes, I have personal experience with cheaper brands and Ive had problems with them. More importantly Ive talked to instructors and shop owners who have seen and worked on more ARs than I will ever see in my see lifetime who DOCUMENT the problems they've had with various brands.
Also I like how you call Colt "high end", really? Colt is the MINIMUM std. of quality one should look for in a fighting AR.
Sid - Smpr Fi's gone, read ST911's post above. You read the forums long enough and this will happen, people get banned. It happened to Smpr Fi and it'll happen to others.
Edited for the Top Gun vibe
Ha ha... that made me laugh out loud in my office. Good one.
Edited for the Top Gun vibe
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Eurodriver
03-26-19, 19:57
I was getting nostalgic about my time in the Corps. This post made me remember why I got out.
The_War_Wagon
03-26-19, 21:18
Poor fellow... he never found out about "The Chart." :rolleyes:
http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc305/The_War_Wagon/the_chart8.jpg
Dr. Bullseye
03-26-19, 21:44
You have no idea what you are talking about.
I have listened to you a few times on this topic. Exactly what does your Gucci AR do that mine won't do.
Not sure what your point is. If you have something specific you want addressed then please feel free to post it.
I have listened to you a few times on this topic. Exactly what does your Gucci AR do that mine won't do.
exiledtoIA
03-26-19, 22:57
You can lead them Gunz, but you can’t make them drink....
Once you have led them to water, in some cases it's better to drown them.
Diamondback
03-26-19, 23:25
Poor fellow... he never found out about "The Chart." :rolleyes:
That reminds me... IS The Chart still floating out there anywhere? Sweeney makes reference to it in his books on the AR1, but I've come up dry with years of trying.
Sid - Smpr Fi's gone, read ST911's post above. You read the forums long enough and this will happen, people get banned. It happened to Smpr Fi and it'll happen to others.
Edited for the Top Gun vibe
You can ride my tail anytime.... :)
But no seriously just shoot your guns, fix what is broke and don’t buy garbage parts. Not hard.
People get this mental image of guys in plaid shirts with beards and taking delicate care over Colt and FN guns like operator oompa loompas when it is a buncha black ladies in Hartford who come in and jam out M16s like they been a doing since the 60s.
Seriously it’s like Hidden Figures or something.
Threads like this make me hate people who care “too much” about ARs
It’s a gun, not a totemic exemplifcation of your manhood or worth in the world.
I don't get why people don't understand enthusiast sites. Coming here to plug Delton is like going to a flashlight site and bragging about your harbor freight light, or a watch site to show off your timex.
Deltons go bang most of the time, harbor freight lights are better than a candle, and timex watches are right at least twice a day, but that doesn't mean people on enthusiast sites want to discuss them.
For the record, I don't remember any Gucci guns being plugged on this site - usually they are ridiculed. Of course some folks may consider Colt, BCM, LMT, Sionics, and Noveske as Gucci.
Andy
P.S. I found what I would consider Gucci - $1800 for a DPMS kit: https://tacopshop.com/dpms-tac2-5-56-223-superkit/
Averageman
03-27-19, 07:58
I just want to address this "lowest bidder = crap" fallacy.
In the first place, I worked in procurement. The proper phrase is "lowest QUALIFIED bidder." You can also add to that "lowest qualified bidder THAT MEETS THE REQUIRED SPECIFICATIONS."
The government sets the specifications, as well as the means to verify the vendor is following them (even if the government doesn't always follow through when it should). The jokes about $600 toilet seats, whether true or not, often speak of all the things that go into procurement, like writing specifications, getting samples (or knowing the vendors reputation), testing examples, verifying specs, awarding contracts, etc.
So, if a maker like Colt produces M16's for the government you can rest assured a team of qualified people wrote the specifications and Colt has to stick to them and be able to prove it. Having said that, we live in an imperfect world and when you have all these people and complicated standards involved, things do occasionally go wrong and bad product slips through. But the bottom line is the "lowest qualified bidder" has to meet and maintain the specifications set forth in the awarded contract. You at least have the assurance that a minimum acceptable standard is being met for the most part.
The other standard is COTS, or 'COMMERCIAL OFF THE SHELF', and what limited experience I have with that, COTS is where the government purchases a pre-existing product deemed to be acceptable to satisfy a contractual requirement, and IMHO that's where a lot of error is introduced.
One of the biggest problems with COTS that I have observed is that there doesn't always seem to be consistent quality control with replacement parts. The "less than meets the standard" replacement parts can be a real issue to track down and replace, often they cannot be 100% sure and a lot of money gets spent in trying to make this right.
My best guess is that someone making replacement part "X" gets a bit sloppy with projecting lifespan and maintenance requiring replacement of parts and then replacement parts fall well below what is actually needed and then someone panic buys something less than adequate "Off the Shelf" from an unproven vendor. You're really screwed if you've got a .mil contract and you now have to replace part x on thousands of weapons systems.
As far as calling a particular brand a "Gucci Gun", I dunno man, "buy once cry once" has become my motto.
Even my Frankengun has all quality parts now and anything I was concerned when I inspected it about was immediately replaced. So I ended up with a used $500 AR that now sports a $150 trigger.
I don't open my mouth about other peoples gear unless it is a close friend. In those cases I take them to the range, explain and show them the difference, but to be fair most of that is all about optics and triggers.
bamashooter
03-27-19, 08:44
COTS IS COTS when it comes to government specs and standards. Less a specified tolerance allowance, the first item produced via a contract vs the millionth item produced should be the same unless otherwise specified.
OP Lost me as soon as he said he puts more rounds downrange than most people on this page.
Failure2Stop
03-27-19, 10:27
One of the biggest problems with COTS that I have observed is that there doesn't always seem to be consistent quality control with replacement parts. The "less than meets the standard" replacement parts can be a real issue to track down and replace, often they cannot be 100% sure and a lot of money gets spent in trying to make this right.
My best guess is that someone making replacement part "X" gets a bit sloppy with projecting lifespan and maintenance requiring replacement of parts and then replacement parts fall well below what is actually needed and then someone panic buys something less than adequate "Off the Shelf" from an unproven vendor. You're really screwed if you've got a .mil contract and you now have to replace part x on thousands of weapons systems.
https://www.gsa.gov/cdnstatic/SF368-11.pdf?forceDownload=1
I work no-kidding real government procurement programs.
To be a qualified vendor for program of record items, you have to jump through a bunch of hoops and testing; from DCMA inspection to packaging and labeling.
If an item isn't meeting the government spec, there are PQDRs (like the one above) that anyone in the receipt chain can initiate. If, however, the specification/drawing is wrong from the government, you're gonna get the part that matches the requirement. Not the fault of the supplier.
"Lowest cost" is a function of many selection criteria (as illustrated above), but mostly applies to commodity items (high volume, simple items like bore brushes and sticky-notes). Even items that technically fall under "COTS" can be highly complex items with detailed inspections and testing for each part, "COTS" is a weird thing in that it is less what it sounds like and more in how it protects intellectual property rights of the manufacturer/supplier.
Dr. Bullseye
03-27-19, 11:29
OK Military guys out there, listen to your peer. This is a experienced guy talking about inexpensive ARs. This is his wife's $550.00 AR. Go to the 14:06 mark of this video. It is a minute or two of your time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRHLk__3ZJU
vicious_cb
03-27-19, 11:37
OK Military guys out there, listen to your peer. This is a experienced guy talking about inexpensive ARs. This is his wife's $550.00 AR. Go to the 14:06 mark of this video. It is a minute or two of your time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRHLk__3ZJU
OK Military guys out there, listen to your peer. This is a experienced guy talking about real world stuff. Go to the 0:00 mark of this video. It is worth 3 minutes and 34 secs of your time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OL4soX9ml2E
titsonritz
03-27-19, 11:38
OK Military guys out there, listen to your peer. This is a experienced guy talking about inexpensive ARs. This is his wife's $550.00 AR. Go to the 14:06 mark of this video. It is a minute or two of your time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRHLk__3ZJU
Oh well, that settles it. :jester:
OK Military guys out there, listen to your peer. This is a experienced guy talking about inexpensive ARs. This is his wife's $550.00 AR. Go to the 14:06 mark of this video. It is a minute or two of your time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRHLk__3ZJU
Not all “military guys” are created equally. I’ve never worked with that dude, so I do not presume him to be my peer. Maybe he knows more than me, maybe not. See OP.
Most “military guys” know less than nothing about weapons. Like most cops, they shoot the gun they were issued, and know the things they were taught about the weapon they are issued. Like max effective range, etc. most “military guys” are taught that they have to clean the everliving crap out of a gun every 65 rounds. There are lots of Soldiers that, no kidding, fire a grand total of 130 rounds a year. So if they run out and buy a PSA, and it doesn’t explode after 420 rounds, they presume that it is as good as or better than their issued weapon.
A minority of “military guys” are “gun guys”. Most of these guys are just like bubba at the gun store, and repeat much of the same crap you hear from Bubba at the gun store. Remember, most of these guys were not physicists, physicians, paramedics, engineers, ballisticians, or competitive shooters before they joined the Army/USMC. They are mostly guys that have graduated high school/GED and many have never even had a previous job. They saw an awesome opportunity for a decent job, or a chance to make something of themselves and took it.
I’ve heard many Soldiers and Marines say crap like: “The Army should have stuck with .308” and “the M4 isn’t reliable enough; we should get AK’s” Most of those have never deployed, or even carried a weapon across mountainous terrain.
Then a very small percentage of us are obsessive nerds with some formal education, that also lucked out with the opportunity, luck, and good genes to work our way into units that actually had a budget for ammo and training.
OK Military guys out there, listen to your peer. This is a experienced guy talking about real world stuff. Go to the 0:00 mark of this video. It is worth 3 minutes and 34 secs of your time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OL4soX9ml2EI gotta go slay some Frickin bodies OK good to go
The_War_Wagon
03-27-19, 13:57
That reminds me... IS The Chart still floating out there anywhere? Sweeney makes reference to it in his books on the AR1, but I've come up dry with years of trying.
It's easy enough to find, but beware - folks were "fiddling with it," even in Rob_S day, trying to make some models look better than they were.
It's also so old, some of the brands originally tested, like, Charles Daly, Sabre Defense, & Olympic, have SINCE gone out of business! DID "The Chart" lead to their demise? WHO knows. But good rifles are STILL made, & yet cheap rifles still abound. Go figure?
titsonritz
03-27-19, 14:04
The "chart" is a snapshot in time and is not necessarily accurate today.
Dr. Bullseye
03-27-19, 14:04
Not all “military guys” are created equally. I’ve never worked with that dude, so I do not presume him to be my peer. Maybe he knows more than me, maybe not. See OP.
Most “military guys” know less than nothing about weapons. Like most cops, they shoot the gun they were issued, and know the things they were taught about the weapon they are issued. Like max effective range, etc. most “military guys” are taught that they have to clean the everliving crap out of a gun every 65 rounds. There are lots of Soldiers that, no kidding, fire a grand total of 130 rounds a year. So if they run out and buy a PSA, and it doesn’t explode after 420 rounds, they presume that it is as good as or better than their issued weapon.
A minority of “military guys” are “gun guys”. Most of these guys are just like bubba at the gun store, and repeat much of the same crap you hear from Bubba at the gun store. Remember, most of these guys were not physicists, physicians, paramedics, engineers, ballisticians, or competitive shooters before they joined the Army/USMC. They are mostly guys that have graduated high school/GED and many have never even had a previous job. They saw an awesome opportunity for a decent job, or a chance to make something of themselves and took it.
I’ve heard many Soldiers and Marines say crap like: “The Army should have stuck with .308” and “the M4 isn’t reliable enough; we should get AK’s” Most of those have never deployed, or even carried a weapon across mountainous terrain.
Then a very small percentage of us are obsessive nerds with some formal education, that also lucked out with the opportunity, luck, and good genes to work our way into units that actually had a budget for ammo and training.
I think you are being a little unfair to the guy I posted. His point seems to me to be that there is a standard but if you meet that standard your AR should run regardless of price. Just to make sure, he references his favorite Colt model. If you don't accept him as a soldier, at least point out to me what he says that is wrong.
Inkslinger
03-27-19, 14:11
I think you are being a little unfair to the guy I posted. His point seems to me to be that there is a standard but if you meet that standard your AR should run regardless of price.
Yes, and the point everyone here is trying to make is that most hobby grade rifles don’t make/barely make that standard, and when they do it’s an exception not the rule.
Well if “Bear Independent “ says DPMS is good to go then it must be good to go.
You two video posting goons owe me for wasted data charges. Lol
The good news is that over the last decade the general quality of AR's has gone up. It seems to me that companies that are half way known are trying to put out a decent rifle. They may not be Colts, KAC, or LMT's but theryre far from Olympic Arms...remember them?
The good news is that over the last decade the general quality of AR's has gone up. It seems to me that companies that are half way known are trying to put out a decent rifle. They may not be Colts, KAC, or LMT's but theryre far from Olympic Arms...remember them?
Actually this.
You could get an MP15 or a Bushmaster and lead a long life of casual use.
I just get LMT, Colt, and KAC stuff because I want it and I do specific stuff with it. (Not that I ‘get’ anything. I still shoot stuff I already have)
I don’t care what the SEALs have
Shooting is my only hobby that costs a lot of money. I budget everything else well. So, I like to get nice guns. Simple as that. Plus, I shoot a lot so I want something that can handle that.
I also am not a collector. More money can go into my two AR's.
Actually this.
You could get an MP15 or a Bushmaster and lead a long life of casual use.
I just get LMT, Colt, and KAC stuff because I want it and I do specific stuff with it.
To me the catch is that a Bushmaster or S&W cost nearly as much as a Colt or LMT.
To me the catch is that a Bushmaster or S&W cost nearly as much as a Colt or LMT.
Ho Lee Phuk! Someone’s onto something!!!
To me the catch is that a Bushmaster or S&W cost nearly as much as a Colt or LMT.
I dont know about an LMT, maybe a 6920, but for the guy who's not too savvy and thinks he needs to save a hundy, a Del-ton or whatever will do. In the end he's getting a decent ok rifle. Dont get me wrong...as soon as I can get out of Ca. I'm thinking of scoring a Sionics.
Seems like Dr. Bullseye is simply trolling.
Five_Point_Five_Six
03-27-19, 18:42
OK Military guys out there, listen to your peer. This is a experienced guy talking about inexpensive ARs. This is his wife's $550.00 AR. Go to the 14:06 mark of this video. It is a minute or two of your time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRHLk__3ZJU
I stopped paying attention when I saw that he was wearing a TNP patch unironically.
crusader377
03-28-19, 13:14
I think my best advice is to purchase the best rifle that you can afford based on your budget with the understanding that once you reach the Colt 6920 ($850-$900) you are going to see diminishing returns in terms of rifle durability/accuracy/reliability and at the higher price levels, you are purchasing nice to haves (midlength gas system, better trigger, rail, etc..) over must haves (reliability, durability, accuracy etc...).
That said, if you have only $500, a S&W Sport will serve you just fine, just like an Aero Precision will at $700. You don't necessarily need to buy a Colt to get a serviceable rifle.
titsonritz
03-28-19, 17:07
If you only have $500 not be an impatient muther ****er and put it in your piggy bank for another month or two. Instant gratification does have it's drawbacks.
Dr. Bullseye
03-28-19, 17:20
Seems like Dr. Bullseye is simply trolling.
No I am not trolling and I don't want to piss anyone off either. It seems to me there are at least three levels of ARs under discussion. I am going to name them without trying to use loaded words.
Premium ARs.
Mil-Spec ARs
Sporting ARs
Of course one grade shades into the other and probably nobody is going to agree where each AR manufacturer stands. Maybe you guys want to add another one "Airsoft ARs" for total trash ARs.
This is further complicated by "commercial ARs" which are not even trying to be mil spec. Nevertheless, some manufacturers produce non-mil spec components at the premium level such as special buffer springs which only fit into their buffer tubes or BCGs which are advertised as premium but nothing like mil spec. As a matter of fact, there are about four grades of BCGs themselves.
I am trying to get names, terminology, for this so we can all talk about the same thing. Is this about right or am I way off base here?
If you only have $500 not be an impatient muther ****er and put it in your piggy bank for another month or two. Instant gratification does have it's drawbacks.
That would be my plan...but then I know a little. I'm sure you already know this, but there are a slew of on my way to gun ownership types that dont know much and never heard of this site. I see them every time I go to a range to relax or go to a lgs. There's just a lot of them out there and the good news for them is that when they plunk down their $500-$700 for an AR, because $1200 is ridicules to their mind, they'll probably get something that works.
My take on this is : buying quality gear increases your chance of not getting a lemon by a large margin. Buying cheap, increases your chance of getting a lemon. But some cheap gear will run with the best of the best.
For training, what difference does it make, not much. Still, many folks enjoy the confidence quality gear brings.
I like to buy the best I can afford most of the time, however I did buy a primary arms 1-6 LPVO and find it satisfactory. And have no regrets for where it sits.
PB
PB
If you only have $500 not be an impatient muther ****er and put it in your piggy bank for another month or two. Instant gratification does have it's drawbacks.
Use that $500 to put a 6920 on layaway,
The_War_Wagon
03-28-19, 20:08
I stopped paying attention when I saw that he was wearing a TNP patch unironically.
And note: he doesn't actually fire the "JUST as good as" rifle. :rolleyes:
OK Military guys out there, listen to your peer. This is a experienced guy talking about inexpensive ARs. This is his wife's $550.00 AR. Go to the 14:06 mark of this video. It is a minute or two of your time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRHLk__3ZJU
I hope you’re kidding.
And he doesn’t seem like he’s military.
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I’ve owned an AR for over 12 years. I started taking carving classes with people like LAV and Kyle Lamb about 8 years ago. I try to do 6 days of class a year. The classes are often 3 days each, 1500-2000 rounds.
I quickly found guns I shot a lot on the range showed issues in these classes. So did set ups of guns. Some that was fine at the bench or shooting steel in your yard could be no good running and gunning.
I like to take new builds to classes to shake them out. A number of them had issues. Other guns wore out. It was all great training. Both from developing intimate understanding of the system, and in dealing with malfunctions.
I have had some real turds. A LWRCi M6A2 factory upper took very little time to prove itself a malf-o-matic on the range. I’d never even bother taking that piece of junk to an expensive class.
OK Military guys out there, listen to your peer. This is a experienced guy talking about inexpensive ARs. This is his wife's $550.00 AR. Go to the 14:06 mark of this video. It is a minute or two of your time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRHLk__3ZJU
fatass with a lumberjack beard
HARD PASS
grizzlyblake
03-29-19, 10:16
UGH. I'm so tired of the SHTF end of the world stuff.
Keeping $20k in $20 bills in a duffel bag in your basement probably makes a lot more sense than all this Rambo stuff so you can get your wife and kid out of Dodge if any of this stuff happens.
I'm keenly aware that my toilet paper and bottled water supply is insufficient to support the amount of ammo I have for "fighting."
I hope you’re kidding.
And he doesn’t seem like he’s military.
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As a matter of fact, of the bios I've seen him publish he doesn't mention any military service at all. Not that that means anything.
As a matter of fact, of the bios I've seen him publish he doesn't mention any military service at all. Not that that means anything.
I don’t know him or follow him but I watched part of that video and a few of the ones YouTube suggested.
He seems like a dude who is heavy on ego, light on experience. Watching him shoot the “drill” at the beginning pretty much settled what that guy was all about. No, not a military man, nor a man that people (lemmings, I suppose) should look to for advice on tactics, gear, or fitness.
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UGH. I'm so tired of the SHTF end of the world stuff.
Keeping $20k in $20 bills in a duffel bag in your basement probably makes a lot more sense than all this Rambo stuff so you can get your wife and kid out of Dodge if any of this stuff happens.
I'm keenly aware that my toilet paper and bottled water supply is insufficient to support the amount of ammo I have for "fighting."
Preach on, Brother.
I don’t know him or follow him but I watched part of that video and a few of the ones YouTube suggested.
He seems like a dude who is heavy on ego, light on experience. Watching him shoot the “drill” at the beginning pretty much settled what that guy was all about. No, not a military man, nor a man that people (lemmings, I suppose) should look to for advice on tactics, gear, or fitness.
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Don't construe my post as any support of the guy. As a matter of fact, I watched exactly 10 seconds of the video linked. I shut it off as soon as the single point sling appeared.. I just googled him up to see what his bio was. It's pretty short in most cases and I agree he's just an opportunist making a little coin off videos.
Don't construe my post as any support of the guy. As a matter of fact, I watched exactly 10 seconds of the video linked. I shut it off as soon as the single point sling appeared.. I just googled him up to see what his bio was. It's pretty short in most cases and I agree he's just an opportunist making a little coin off videos.
Roger that, I hope I didn’t seem to imply you were supporting him. If so, my apologies.
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Dr. Bullseye
03-29-19, 12:18
So if the guy I posted doesn't look right or have the right bio or wears the wrong sling, then he is not qualified to say his less-than-premium AR just simply runs, right guys? All you experts out there, I have a big news flash for you. You don't have to spend 2K to get an AR to run. Maybe it is hard to admit after spending 2K, I don't know, but it is a dead bang fact.
So if the guy I posted doesn't look right or have the right bio or wears the wrong sling, then he is not qualified to say his less-than-premium AR just simply runs, right guys? All you experts out there, I have a big news flash for you. You don't have to spend 2K to get an AR to run. Maybe it is hard to admit after spending 2K, I don't know, but it is a dead bang fact.
6920 is just under $800 with Magpul furniture. My issued rifles have each cost me nothing. I do/have owned some rifles ranging from very cheap to very expensive, which is part of why I recommend the 6920 to anyone desiring a budget friendly rifle.
wetidlerjr
03-29-19, 12:45
So if the guy I posted doesn't look right or have the right bio or wears the wrong sling, then he is not qualified to say his less-than-premium AR just simply runs, right guys? All you experts out there, I have a big news flash for you. You don't have to spend 2K to get an AR to run. Maybe it is hard to admit after spending 2K, I don't know, but it is a dead bang fact.
I have always been a great believer in "dead bang" facts.
6920 is just under $800 with Magpul furniture. My issued rifles have each cost me nothing. I do/have owned some rifles ranging from very cheap to very expensive, which is part of why I recommend the 6920 to anyone desiring a budget friendly rifle.
Under 800$ where?
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So if the guy I posted doesn't look right or have the right bio or wears the wrong sling, then he is not qualified to say his less-than-premium AR just simply runs, right guys? All you experts out there, I have a big news flash for you. You don't have to spend 2K to get an AR to run. Maybe it is hard to admit after spending 2K, I don't know, but it is a dead bang fact.
What makes this guy an expert?
Why is his opinion trusted? What does this video have to do with the topic at hand?
Does functioning with rather casual range plinking indicate performance in the real world or harsh environments?
Does one cheap AR functioning to the expectations of a layman, anecdotal evidence if you will, provide statistically significant evidence that the cheap AR is good to go across the board? Can said evidence be universalized with a large degree of certainty?
Who said one needs a $2,000 AR to have one that simply functions? I’ve seen Colts for $750 recently. I’ve seen some sub-$1,000 BCMs as well.
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grizzlyblake
03-29-19, 13:19
If someone legitimately wants/needs an AR for life or death self defense but for some reason cannot come up with more than $500, I will gladly look over your budget and help you figure out how to fit a quality rifle purchase into your planning. But please don't just up and buy some hobby grade AR for that purpose.
On the other hand, if a guy will stand up and say that he acknowledges the shortcomings of his cheap AR and, with that knowledge, still decides that's the purchase he wants to make, I can respect that.
The "just as good as" stuff has got to stop though.
Under 800$ where?
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I thought for sure I had a receipt saved in my phone, but I don’t. Amchar Tactical in Summerville, SC. They only allow LE, Mil, First Responders into the storefront, and tend to have excellent prices.
Don Robison
03-29-19, 14:02
OK Military guys out there, listen to your peer. This is a experienced guy talking about inexpensive ARs. This is his wife's $550.00 AR. Go to the 14:06 mark of this video. It is a minute or two of your time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRHLk__3ZJU
Kind of curious how an electrician, prepper and part time preacher is the peer of a trained military guy? What makes this guy experienced? What is he experienced at? It's not a swipe at him, but he's not a peer in any way shape or form.
Dr. Bullseye
03-29-19, 14:30
What makes this guy an expert?
Why is his opinion trusted? What does this video have to do with the topic at hand?
Does functioning with rather casual range plinking indicate performance in the real world or harsh environments?
Does one cheap AR functioning to the expectations of a layman, anecdotal evidence if you will, provide statistically significant evidence that the cheap AR is good to go across the board? Can said evidence be universalized with a large degree of certainty?
Who said one needs a $2,000 AR to have one that simply functions? I’ve seen Colts for $750 recently. I’ve seen some sub-$1,000 BCMs as well.
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I have never claimed to be an expert and have posted my experience with the AR. I am an Average Shooter, on a good day. But I do have an AR which runs. I think the Colt for $800.00 is a fantastic buy and if it had been available to me at the time, I would have snapped it up. In fact, the last Colt I saw before buying my AR was $1500.00 and when I was ready to buy no Colts at all were available anywhere, they were all on back order. My AR out the door, taxes etc. was about $900.00. I made the gun shop owner swear it was mil spec. I called and spoke to the owner of the company and he swore it was mil spec. He referred me to another retailer who rattled off the specifications of this rifle. Mil spec is around for a reason. The government has tested these things and mil spec meets their standard. I am a facts kinda guy so anyone insisting their premium components are better than mil spec should offer some sort of proof as far as I am concerned.
There is another issue. I am an expert on he telephone so I got the owner of this company on the horn. This company owner told me nobody makes their own parts. He said all manufactures buy individual parts and their operation is an assembly process. Of course there are components such as barrels which may be an exception, I really don't know, this owner was talking in general terms. His point was frankenguns are said to be the most likely to fail because of the assembly process. He said skilled, repetitive assembly skills were important and finding components which successfully mesh was another important issue.
I have never claimed to be an expert and have posted my experience with the AR. I am an Average Shooter, on a good day. But I do have an AR which runs. I think the Colt for $800.00 is a fantastic buy and if it had been available to me at the time, I would have snapped it up. In fact, the last Colt I saw before buying my AR was $1500.00 and when I was ready to buy no Colts at all were available anywhere, they were all on back order. My AR out the door, taxes etc. was about $900.00. I made the gun shop owner swear it was mil spec. I called and spoke to the owner of the company and he swore it was mil spec. He referred me to another retailer who rattled off the specifications of this rifle. Mil spec is around for a reason. The government has tested these things and mil spec meets their standard. I am a facts kinda guy so anyone insisting their premium components are better than mil spec should offer some sort of proof as far as I am concerned.
There is another issue. I am an expert on he telephone so I got the owner of this company on the horn. This company owner told me nobody makes their own parts. He said all manufactures buy individual parts and their operation is an assembly process. Of course there are components such as barrels which may be an exception, I really don't know, this owner was talking in general terms. His point was frankenguns are said to be the most likely to fail because of the assembly process. He said skilled, repetitive assembly skills were important and finding components which successfully mesh was another important issue.
I don’t think you addressed anything I said.
Also, I think you’ve been given a line of crap.
There are two things people talk about when talking “mil-spec”. There are dimensions, and then there is the TDP that requires specific steels, hardnesses, materials, processes for QC, and so on.
Remember, GM has Cadillacs and they have Geos. Just because a manufacturer makes parts for company A doesn’t mean that same part is being sold to company B. There ARE differences in “mil-spec” rifles. I’m sure you can google some of that or even find some of it here in this forum.
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turnburglar
03-29-19, 16:08
I screw around with the PSA rifles. I also own a BCM, and was issued Colts.
The only reason I do is because I learned how to properly inspect a rifle in the service. We learned the acronym "BMW-CLS" which meant: "Broken, Missing, Worn, Cleanliness, Lubrication, Spring tension". By doing a proper inspection every time you clean a rifle it helps to stay ahead of the maitenance curve. How does this apply to crap rifles? It's the fact that I inspect and TEST everything, whether or not it has a poney on it. This 'mentality' makes brand loyalty a thing of the past and ensures I have a good time no matter what.
Testing is the biggest issue ALL people have when selecting a rifle. Even in the military we didnt test our systems nearly enough to ensure they where 'life support dependable'. This includes; validating system integrity and confirming zero. If you simply put 1000 rounds through a gun when you first get it and have no malfunctions: chances are very high that you will have a solid rifle. If you have any failures or stoppages in that first K, now is a great time to address. If you then take the vetted gun and check zero every 6 months to a year, you have a perfectly capable home defense weapons reguardless of the manufacturer.
When you buy from a higher end manufactuer the chances that you will need to replace parts get substantially lower. But the TESTING still needs to be accomplished. Recently I bought a sub $500 PSA pistol kit. I had to replace $25 worth of parts right off the bat. Now the gun is 500 rounds in and hasnt had a single hicup. 500 more rounds and I will be a believer in that little rifle, just as I was in my issued Colt, or personally owned BCM.
Dr. Bullseye
03-29-19, 16:38
I don’t think you addressed anything I said.
Also, I think you’ve been given a line of crap.
There are two things people talk about when talking “mil-spec”. There are dimensions, and then there is the TDP that requires specific steels, hardnesses, materials, processes for QC, and so on.
Remember, GM has Cadillacs and they have Geos. Just because a manufacturer makes parts for company A doesn’t mean that same part is being sold to company B. There ARE differences in “mil-spec” rifles. I’m sure you can google some of that or even find some of it here in this forum.
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Since you (meaning all of you) rejected my video, all I can report is what was said to me and my experience with my rifle. It has been good. I am not looking for another rifle. So having said everything I have to say, I am going to let you guys go now and move on to something else.
The_War_Wagon
03-29-19, 19:28
For those of us who were new here, back when this thread originally started, it answered a LOTTA questions over its life, about barrel steel, chrome vs. nitride barrels, mil-spec vs. commercial tubes, etc. In short, all the things you NEEDED to know about AR15's and their construction, and what "mil-spec" really means when the government SPECIFIES it in a contract, vs. when the local shop monkey throws it, and various other 'buzzwords' around. It might oughta be the first stickie, in a "Newbies" subforum.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?6642-Comparison-Chart-of-Major-AR-Brands
Falshooter
03-29-19, 20:46
There is definitely a range factor. No one would use the sights at a distance of two feet. No one would point shoot at 50 yards if sights could possibly be used.
Between the two is a point that will vary with the skill of the shooter and the practice involved. Practice can extend that point outward to 5 feet, 10 feet, 10 yards or more.
At one time, I could shoot bottles off a fence at 50 feet with a K22, point shooting, DA. Note the ".22". I could not have afforded to shoot any other caliber enough to get that good. And I didn't use any fancy techniques, or modifications to the gun except a Fitz grip adapter.
Neither point shooting or sight shooting is the whole answer. Too much depends on the circumstances and the speed required, as well as the mental attitude and state of training.
Training is also neither a panacea nor is it, as some contend, worthless. But too much training involves simple mechanical practice with the gun, and too little with mental control in an emergency situation.
This turned into a long thread quick! I didn’t see anyone mention yet that ALL will break something at some point if used long and hard enough. Even a Glock or AK will fail. While it would be nice to trade the armorer a broken rifle for one that works, average Joe does not have that luxury. If you shoot a lot, learn how to fix your sh*t WHEN it breaks.
My first 2 years of shooting a Glock in USPSA I had a chipped extractor, cracked ejector, and broken magazine release spring. I fired 30k rounds in that time and the gun has about 35k total on it (plus many, many hours of dry fire practice). But, no big deal. I have a Tupperware container in my range bag with every spare part I’d ever need and have the knowledge to replace stuff when I breaks.
I have a factory Windham Weaponry rifle that needed gas rings replaced at 3k rounds to continue to function with steel case ammo. Again, no big deal. It was about $5 and 5 minutes to fix.
ARs are easy to work on, so learn the basics because if you shoot a lot, something will break. And, personally, I would not want to deal with taking advantage of a lifetime warranty to ship a rifle back for simple repairs I can do at home for little time and money.
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Inkslinger
03-30-19, 20:26
OK Military guys out there, listen to your peer. This is a experienced guy talking about inexpensive ARs. This is his wife's $550.00 AR. Go to the 14:06 mark of this video. It is a minute or two of your time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRHLk__3ZJU
You didn’t take one look at this guys targets and realize he has nothing to offer?
You didn’t take one look at this guys targets and realize he has nothing to offer?
Okay, I gonna explain this one time, and one time only. Only shooters who are going to get killed by their flawed habits built from competition shoot tight groups. When you are death dealing tight groups don't provide as much shock to the body as widely dispersed shots.
At least that is what I'd say if I couldn't shoot a group.
Okay, I gonna explain this one time, and one time only. Only shooters who are going to get killed by their flawed habits built from competition shoot tight groups. When you are death dealing tight groups don't provide as much shock to the body as widely dispersed shots.
At least that is what I'd say if I couldn't shoot a group.
I do like that one, tight groups suck for center mass kills. Hole in hole not as good. Gave me a smile on my face.
Why are we still talking about this cheap gun vs not cheap gun. What kills me is so many of these guys drive a $45,000 truck and buy a $500 AR, its their prerogative. If you are paying over $10,000 for a truck your waisting money, but people spend money on what they they value. Ive seen cashiers with $600 glasses because thats what important to them. So be it. But for the love of God, buy nice AR's :)
PB
I’m a below average shooter, with plain vanilla ARs.
I have nothing beyond very rudimentary training, and I don’t even know how optics work.
nightchief
03-30-19, 21:56
I do like that one, tight groups suck for center mass kills. Hole in hole not as good. Gave me a smile on my face.
Why are we still talking about this cheap gun vs not cheap gun. What kills me is so many of these guys drive a $45,000 truck and buy a $500 AR, its their prerogative. If you are paying over $10,000 for a truck your waisting money, but people spend money on what they they value. Ive seen cashiers with $600 glasses because thats what important to them. So be it. But for the love of God, buy nice AR's :)
PB
This! Great post!
I thought for sure I had a receipt saved in my phone, but I don’t. Amchar Tactical in Summerville, SC. They only allow LE, Mil, First Responders into the storefront, and tend to have excellent prices.
I lived in Summerville for 3 years and never heard of them. Where are they? You can PM if you want.
vicious_cb
03-31-19, 00:09
Someone needs to close this thread before more people embarrass themselves.
I lived in Summerville for 3 years and never heard of them. Where are they? You can PM if you want.
PM inbound.
I dream of Trump doing an EO activating the unorganized militia so we all can get good and proper training.
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wetidlerjr
03-31-19, 06:10
I’m a below average shooter, with plain vanilla ARs.
I have nothing beyond very rudimentary training, and I don’t even know how optics work.
:jester:
Five_Point_Five_Six
03-31-19, 09:44
And note: he doesn't actually fire the "JUST as good as" rifle. :rolleyes:
Can't say I'm surprised. Most of the "just as good" rifles that I've seen where the owner claims to have thousands of rounds through them look unfired. No scratches, no dings, no carbon buildup on the muzzle device, like they've had a mag or two ran through and stored after that.
Hammer_Man
03-31-19, 11:17
There are dudes out there who wear green berets, and can kill a man with a drinking straw and a wad of chewing gum. To those guys I would say that yes, being a trained shooter makes a difference. To those guys I would apply the addage that it's the caveman, not the club. For average people like me I'd rather have the nicest, most reliable club I could get my hands on.
Ultimately I think it is up to the individual to decide what is best for them. If they decide a third rate AR is what is best for them, that's fine with me. Just don't expect everyone to share their views, or embrace them should they feel the need to push their ideas on people.
Can't say I'm surprised. Most of the "just as good" rifles that I've seen where the owner claims to have thousands of rounds through them look unfired. No scratches, no dings, no carbon buildup on the muzzle device, like they've had a mag or two ran through and stored after that.
Right, I laugh when "some" people post that they shoot 500 rounds every week. 4 years later, they have 3k through their one and only glow stick without issues.
Eurodriver
03-31-19, 12:06
Right, I laugh when "some" people post that they shoot 500 rounds every week. 4 years later, they have 3k through their one and only glow stick without issues.
OP said he shoots more than you lol
Dead thread is dead.
He's dead Jim.
Right, I laugh when "some" people post that they shoot 500 rounds every week. 4 years later, they have 3k through their one and only glow stick without issues.
That’s the beauty of the truth, don’t have to remember your stories and who you told them to.
That’s the beauty of the truth, don’t have to remember your stories and who you told them to.
Exactly.
I cry about my monthly ammo expenditure as it is, never mind trying to one up everyone (or anyone).
I mostly shoot pistols these days after a change in thinking. In defense of self or others, I will more likely have my pistol where a rifle will be at home or in a vehicle at best. Therefore I focus on pistols, which are, thankfully, more economical yet still cringeworthy. However, you know your priorities are in line when you sell unused firearms to buy training ammunition.
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The jokes about $600 toilet seats, whether true or not, often speak of all the things that go into procurement, like writing specifications, getting samples (or knowing the vendors reputation), testing examples, verifying specs, awarding contracts, etc...
Just to clarify...
The "toilet seat" fiasco was entirely invented by the media.
The "toilet seat" was not the toilet seat one buys from Lowes or Walmart. It was, in fact, a fiberglass fitting that goes over the toilet seat in the Navy C-2 cargo aircraft. One the Drawing it was labeled: "Cover, Toilet Seat", so the press ran with "toilet seat". Now, the most C-2s the Navy ever had was 56, and very few need a new cover during rework, so you can see that this is a low demand part, and only a handful were purchased. Anyone that knows fiberglass knows that make three or four on something is almost as expensive as making a hundred of them. And, they actually paid $600 each, really a bargain for such a part.
When I got into the AR platform about nine years ago and someone mentioned I paid for the rollmark or made by the lowest bidder, I would try and explain all that TDP, mil-spec, QA/QC, etc., etc., etc., to them to justify my purchase and hopefully plant the seed on why they should do the same. Gradually over time, I found myself less inclined to be a promoter of "quality" firearms, be it rifle, pistol, shotgun, etc. I figured people will buy what they want to buy and so be it. I leave the "learning curve" to them to figure it out for themselves. Today, when someone tells me what AR they bought, whether a KAC or a some lower hobby grade AR, I smile and give them a thumbs up, and say "That's cool". I just hope they feel that they have some skin in the game being AR owners and take an interest in joining the NRA, GOA, and their state pro-gun groups to fight the anti-gunners. As always, have nice day.
What 3 AE said. I'm so over trying to convince someone why certain people buy a particular grade of AR. As I got old, I started to view it as telling war stories. Most people don't care, and don't deserve to hear them. Most people don't care how much time you have behind a tier 1 AR and how it worked. They want to feel good about what they bought, and how much cheaper it was. I very rarely expend the energy to explain to someone why they should buy a tier 1 AR, or a Glock. Love 1911's, have a number of them, but they ain't Glocks. I no longer have any shitty AR's, and It will probably stay that way.
What 3 AE said. I'm so over trying to convince someone why certain people buy a particular grade of AR. As I got old, I started to view it as telling war stories. Most people don't care, and don't deserve to hear them. Most people don't care how much time you have behind a tier 1 AR and how it worked. They want to feel good about what they bought, and how much cheaper it was. I very rarely expend the energy to explain to someone why they should buy a tier 1 AR, or a Glock. Love 1911's, have a number of them, but they ain't Glocks. I no longer have any shitty AR's, and It will probably stay that way.
You’re speaking for me with this.
Screw being an AR missionary. People deserve what they get. If they don’t care enough to research and know what they are doing then F em.
Some people are more than content to shoot dirt with an Anderson like a differently abled person
I give zero ****s what anyone else uses or does.
OP is no longer with us, action unrelated to this thread. Thread can stay open and take its natural course. Have a great Tuesday, everyone.
I am betting he was busted by the CIA for being a dip shit, or one of the real deal here called him out on his implied valor.
CatBacker88
04-01-19, 17:25
When I got into the AR platform about nine years ago and someone mentioned I paid for the rollmark or made by the lowest bidder, I would try and explain all that TDP, mil-spec, QA/QC, etc., etc., etc., to them to justify my purchase and hopefully plant the seed on why they should do the same. Gradually over time, I found myself less inclined to be a promoter of "quality" firearms, be it rifle, pistol, shotgun, etc. I figured people will buy what they want to buy and so be it. I leave the "learning curve" to them to figure it out for themselves. Today, when someone tells me what AR they bought, whether a KAC or a some lower hobby grade AR, I smile and give them a thumbs up, and say "That's cool". I just hope they feel that they have some skin in the game being AR owners and take an interest in joining the NRA, GOA, and their state pro-gun groups to fight the anti-gunners. As always, have nice day.
Correct! There's a world of difference between discussions as to whether Rifle-A is "just as good" as Rifle-B and the kinda similar discussion of whether Rifle A or Rifle B are "good enough" for a specific purpose. Way to easy to slide off the rails and piss people off when it's not really clear. Nothing to be gained there.
Differently abled person. Outstanding, and PC.
bad17ddd24
04-02-19, 08:48
This turned into a long thread quick! I didn’t see anyone mention yet that ALL will break something at some point if used long and hard enough. Even a Glock or AK will fail. While it would be nice to trade the armorer a broken rifle for one that works, average Joe does not have that luxury. If you shoot a lot, learn how to fix your sh*t WHEN it breaks.
My first 2 years of shooting a Glock in USPSA I had a chipped extractor, cracked ejector, and broken magazine release spring. I fired 30k rounds in that time and the gun has about 35k total on it (plus many, many hours of dry fire practice). But, no big deal. I have a Tupperware container in my range bag with every spare part I’d ever need and have the knowledge to replace stuff when I breaks.
I have a factory Windham Weaponry rifle that needed gas rings replaced at 3k rounds to continue to function with steel case ammo. Again, no big deal. It was about $5 and 5 minutes to fix.
ARs are easy to work on, so learn the basics because if you shoot a lot, something will break. And, personally, I would not want to deal with taking advantage of a lifetime warranty to ship a rifle back for simple repairs I can do at home for little time and money.
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Out of all the BS in this whole thread. This is about the best advise out there. Learn how to fix your weapons. I've replaced extractors on Glocks also. I've built ARs and changed parts that failed. Know your guns and know how to fix them. Make sure you have extra parts to fix your guns. I have a box of Glock extra parts. I have a couple complete lower parts kits for the AR, upper parts kits, extra bolt carrier groups, charging handle...etc. Guns fail no matter if they are Teir 1 or Tier none. Just make sure you have the parts to keep you running.
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Out of all the BS in this whole thread. This is about the best advise out there. Learn how to fix your weapons. I've replaced extractors on Glocks also. I've built ARs and changed parts that failed. Know your guns and know how to fix them. Make sure you have extra parts to fix your guns. I have a box of Glock extra parts. I have a couple complete lower parts kits for the AR, upper parts kits, extra bolt carrier groups, charging handle...etc. Guns fail no matter if they are Teir 1 or Tier none. Just make sure you have the parts to keep you running.
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"BS"...your first post calls the advice "BS". Here's me holding my head. Do you really think we don't all know that machines, no matter how well manufactured and built fail? And there have been previous threads about spares, even for Tier 1 guns. The OP seemed to being making the dubious assertion that a Bushmaster was just as good as a KAC and people don't agree...do you?
bad17ddd24
04-02-19, 15:12
"BS"...your first post calls the advice "BS". Here's me holding my head. Do you really think we don't all know that machines, no matter how well manufactured and built fail? And there have been previous threads about spares, even for Tier 1 guns. The OP seemed to being making the dubious assertion that a Bushmaster was just as good as a KAC and people don't agree...do you?
To be honest, my opinion is just that an opinion. I don't really care which gun someone chooses. It's their choice. It's their life to put on the line. It's their money. I don't get into to brand discussions that's why I said the best advise is to buy spare parts because eventually everything breaks and you should know how to fix it yourself.
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I just want to address this "lowest bidder = crap" fallacy.
In the first place, I worked in procurement. The proper phrase is "lowest QUALIFIED bidder." You can also add to that "lowest qualified bidder THAT MEETS THE REQUIRED SPECIFICATIONS."
Which means no incentive to exceed the REQUIRED SPECIFICATIONS if it will add to the cost. So if I can make a M4 out of Einsteinium, which would mean zero failures, .1 MOA groups, but would cost 10% more, it would not win the bid.
To be honest, my opinion is just that an opinion. I don't really care which gun someone chooses. It's their choice. It's their life to put on the line. It's their money. I don't get into to brand discussions that's why I said the best advise is to buy spare parts because eventually everything breaks and you should know how to fix it yourself.
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So if someone, let's say a friend, asks you for advice on which AR he should buy...you answer him...what? No opinion?
wetidlerjr
04-02-19, 17:44
So if someone, let's say a friend, asks you for advice on which AR he should buy...you answer him...what? No opinion?
Not answering for bad17ddd24 but I'm close to doing that. Too many "askholes" around anymore.
Not answering for bad17ddd24 but I'm close to doing that. Too many "askholes" around anymore.
Your friends are ask holes? I must be older, if someone asks me for help and are sincere...I help.
bad17ddd24
04-02-19, 18:52
Your friends are ask holes? I must be older, if someone asks me for help and are sincere...I help.I tell them to buy the best AR THEY can afford. I tell them to look around and read up. I'm sure there are ten other guys more than willing to give "their opinion" on what the best AR is going to be. 10 guys and 10 different answers too. Let them go ask those ten people. If he ask me what kind I have, I tell them. It really doesn't matter which brand I use, it matters what someone can afford to buy and how they are going to run it. I'm not a guns salesman. I know the brands I use. I won't call a gun a POS until I've used it. Some POS will run like a top and some brand names will have problems out the box. Machines are funny that way. But all tools break eventually. I'm older too and it really depends on whose asking. I'll be honest, I don't give too much credit to internet opinions. You just really don't know who you are talking to and if they have more or less experience running guns as you do yourself especially with all the internet operators now a days. But that's just my 2 cents.
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Five_Point_Five_Six
04-02-19, 19:36
I ain't trying to be Captain Save a Hoe with people anymore. If they can't be bothered to do 5 minutes of research I don't care what they buy.
Well let's see...on this forum I think you're highly unlikely to get 10 different opinions on what the 10 best makes of AR's are, at least from people that have been here a while. Colt, BCM, Sionics, KAC, LMT, Hodge...maybe a couple of others. Maybe I missed it, but I dont think anyone called a Del-ton, Bushmaster, Windham or S&W a POS, just not the best. Those are serviceable rifles and would suit many just fine. As for vetting this forum, my opinion isn't worth much, but there are guys on here that have been involved with manufacturing and using AR's for some time. I would take seriously many of the opinions here than the opinions you would get from, say, the lgs.
wetidlerjr
04-02-19, 21:58
Your friends are ask holes? I must be older, if someone asks me for help and are sincere...I help.
I never said my friends were anything and I doubt you are older than me.
I never said my friends were anything and I doubt you are older than me.
The context of my post that you responded to was "friends" and I'm in my 6th decade.
wetidlerjr
04-03-19, 03:16
I ain't trying to be Captain Save a Hoe with people anymore. If they can't be bothered to do 5 minutes of research I don't care what they buy.
Exactly
I ain't trying to be Captain Save a Hoe with people anymore. If they can't be bothered to do 5 minutes of research I don't care what they buy.
omg this all day
Yes, yes "hoes" and "askholes" and non researchers must be shunned. But almost everyone I have met, mostly at the range or lgs, are willing to listen to some advice. I'll continue to be helpful where I can.
Has anyone actually done "5 min of research" without coming on here or other sites like this one?
Just do a Google search of XYZ product? Try it! You'll find that Del-Ton/Anderson/PSA/Bushy...etc.. is as good, if not better than any BCM/DD/Knights. Youll find out that you're paying for name/roll mark only and that there are only a few manufacturers who make ARs for the rest so it's all the same! You'll also find out that Glocks explode, their mags melt to the inside of the magwell when it's hot out, and they spontaneously go kaboom!
When asked I have no problem helping. It doesn't mean my opinion will be listened to but that doesn't matter. I answered the questions and gave my opinions. Now it's the owner's job to weigh that against their perceived needs and price range.
Five_Point_Five_Six
04-03-19, 10:47
Yes, yes "hoes" and "askholes" and non researchers must be shunned. But almost everyone I have met, mostly at the range or lgs, are willing to listen to some advice. I'll continue to be helpful where I can.
I ain't talking about not helping when asked. I'm talking about taking the time to explain to someone why a PSA/Spikes/Delton/DPMS/Olympic/Bushmaster/Anderson/whatever sub $800 complete rifle is not on the same level as Colt/DD/BCM and what the differences are, just to have them turn around and listen to the chubby bearded guy behind the gun counter and buy the hobby rifle because he said it's just as good. If their just as good rifle ends up being not just as good and they ask me to take a look at it, sorry but I ain't got the time.
Doc Safari
04-03-19, 10:50
Has anyone actually done "5 min of research" without coming on here or other sites like this one?
Just do a Google search of XYZ product? Try it! You'll find that Del-Ton/Anderson/PSA/Bushy...etc.. is as good, if not better than any BCM/DD/Knights. Youll find out that you're paying for name/roll mark only and that there are only a few manufacturers who make ARs for the rest so it's all the same! You'll also find out that Glocks explode, their mags melt to the inside of the magwell when it's hot out, and they spontaneously go kaboom!
When asked I have no problem helping. It doesn't mean my opinion will be listened to but that doesn't matter. I answered the questions and gave my opinions. Now it's the owner's job to weigh that against their perceived needs and price range.
I begin to think all online reviews are worthless. I have read countless five-star or glowing reviews about some product made from genuine Chinesium that is just as good as a higher quality alternative. If I read one more review where the person gives the item a glowing recommendation even though "I haven't fired it yet but I know it's just as good as _____________.", I think I'll vomit.
I ain't talking about not helping when asked. I'm talking about taking the time to explain to someone why a PSA/Spikes/Delton/DPMS/Olympic/Bushmaster/Anderson/whatever sub $800 complete rifle is not on the same level as Colt/DD/BCM and what the differences are, just to have them turn around and listen to the chubby bearded guy behind the gun counter and buy the hobby rifle because he said it's just as good. If their just as good rifle ends up being not just as good and they ask me to take a look at it, sorry but I ain't got the time.
I understand, it can be frustrating. But I'm ok with people turning the other way, if I wasnt I think I'd go crazy. I just have had successes where people have actually taken my advice, hopefully for the better. Just 2 weeks ago a guy at a lgs was going to trade his not yet received Springfield TRP for a Kimber and I talked him out of it. Of course the next guy might be a dolt, but I'll keep trying.
If they're really into ARs and shooting, chances are they'll learn of their own volition and accept advice when given. I know my first rifle was a cluster**** on many different levels, but I was curious and learned as I went and am lightyears away from my beginnings with my post-ban Bushmaster XM15-E2S w/ the PSG-1 knockoff grip, $50 carry handle-mounted scope and Harris bipod bolted to the plastic handguards. Oh, and the accu-wedge. Can't forget that.
If they don't become serious shooters, their hobby grade dirt blaster will be just fine for their purposes and there will be more nice rifles out there for the rest of us.
I begin to think all online reviews are worthless. I have read countless five-star or glowing reviews about some product made from genuine Chinesium that is just as good as a higher quality alternative. If I read one more review where the person gives the item a glowing recommendation even though "I haven't fired it yet but I know it's just as good as _____________.", I think I'll vomit.They are. I don't bother anymore unless it's something very specific. Maybe a specific comparison or something that's normally not discussed here.
That being said, I'm at the point where I don't really need to do research. Im not going to be curious about the new Remington 9mm or Taurus something or other or a Walmart optic. There's a few products I stick with made by a handful of manufacturers.
I ain't talking about not helping when asked. I'm talking about taking the time to explain to someone why a PSA/Spikes/Delton/DPMS/Olympic/Bushmaster/Anderson/whatever sub $800 complete rifle is not on the same level as Colt/DD/BCM and what the differences are, just to have them turn around and listen to the chubby bearded guy behind the gun counter and buy the hobby rifle because he said it's just as good. If their just as good rifle ends up being not just as good and they ask me to take a look at it, sorry but I ain't got the time.
Perhaps that is the problem.
When I'm in the LGS and a customer is looking at a rifle, unless they directly ask me, I keep my mouth shut. Generally at that point unsolicited advice is not appreciated. Especially if the customer is talking to an employee.
Just how often does someone ask you to take a look at their rifle and give your impression?
Five_Point_Five_Six
04-03-19, 14:37
Perhaps that is the problem.
When I'm in the LGS and a customer is looking at a rifle, unless they directly ask me, I keep my mouth shut. Generally at that point unsolicited advice is not appreciated. Especially if the customer is talking to an employee.
Just how often does someone ask you to take a look at their rifle and give your impression?
I really don't go to LGS's anymore. I'm talking about friends and acquaintances, not random strangers. I've done my best to steer them in the right direction and had them still buy a low grade gun that gave them problems right off the bat. Then they'll call and see if I can help them figure out why it's not working. I don't have time for that.
ramairthree
04-03-19, 15:48
This is a question that has changed a lot over the past handful of decades.
Both in terms of what was available as an AR,
How good their product was, whether it got better, stayed the same, got worse, who exceeded and in what way mil spec, etc. Thats just in terms of the ARs. With pros and cons to consider over chrome, SS, nitride, etc.
Then, there is the change in tactics and accessories. If you are handed an AR with a matching sling, handguards, fixed carry handle, and LCE with buckle mag pouches, a guy with a high level of training is going to see much of his advantage over a guy with much less training hampered.
Then, what are you doing? A lot of gun game equipment is going to be useless in Tactical military operations, leaving a trail behind you. While some games get pretty active, I have yet to seen one where you rush into the back of a pander or striker or rotary wing with little to no notice, climb walls, crawl under fences, jump over trash/sewage ditches, fall off a roof, rush up narrow stairways where no single stair is the same height or depth/width, with a tangle of shit on the floor, in the dark. Conversely, serious tactical kit is not going to be advantageous in gun games.
Where are you doing it? Urban, permissive, semi permissive, non permissive, mountains, jungle, cold, dessert, ?...
Some cool sneaker booties, platehangers, and a couple of small pouches and a scoped DMR are going to kind of suck in the jungle for several days. Running around a quick in and out village in OEF in jungle boots, an 80 pound Alice pack with a suppressed SBR in winter with visibility for kilometers would not be cool.
When was the training? How current, how much? The gun techniques of 80s era SOT vs 90s SFAUC, post GWOT SFAUC/SFARTEC/OTC we’re not static. If you have done a dozen weekend courses with former operators, let’s say you have racked up the gun training of SFAUC. Do you do any maintenance training. What shape are you in. How stoic/resistant, no quit, are you. Are you detached / dissociated when surrounded by dead bodies and DGAF, or do you shake and quiver. How close to your 100% are you capable of with a torn biceps tendon, sprained ankle, broken fibula, etc.
What kind of budget do you have?
I needed to re barrel twice and one bolt replacement with my M4 in 8 years and replaced two recoil springs and one barrel preventively in my pistol during that time. I am not going to use that much ammo on my own budget.
How many guns do you have-
Is your use spread out amount a game gun, a home defense gun, a truck gun, and a hunting gun-
Or do you beat the piss out of one.
How much cleaning do you do- old school spotless mil cleaning does a ton of wear to your gun
What are your preferences-
Battery life or field of view, durability or feel of handguards, weight or shape of stock, etc.
You have to decide for yourself what level you think you are valid to weigh in on-
For example,
Some get pissed when I say their Sub2000 or CX4 is not a serious Carbine and has shit for durability.
Some get miffed when I tell a guy his bushmaster, Windham, S&W, etc. is just fine - they shot a hundred or so rounds a year and have it on hand for home defense or SHTF.
Others get miffed when I say the same guns are not going to cut it for their planned monthly three gun march, two classes a year, and 500 rounds a month of training.
I Won’t comment on mid priced vs expensive glass because I don’t have the skill and background.
I will say spend at least 400 bucks on red dots for go to guns.
When someone says they can run an ARX, AK, HK, M14, etc. as fast as an AR, I will call BS because you that means they suck too much to reap the advantages.
When someone starts talking aftermarket triggers, I shut up because I am not good enough to reap the advantages.
This is a question that has changed a lot over the past handful of decades.
Both in terms of what was available as an AR,
How good their product was, whether it got better, stayed the same, got worse, who exceeded and in what way mil spec, etc. Thats just in terms of the ARs. With pros and cons to consider over chrome, SS, nitride, etc.
Then, there is the change in tactics and accessories. If you are handed an AR with a matching sling, handguards, fixed carry handle, and LCE with buckle mag pouches, a guy with a high level of training is going to see much of his advantage over a guy with much less training hampered.
Then, what are you doing? A lot of gun game equipment is going to be useless in Tactical military operations, leaving a trail behind you. While some games get pretty active, I have yet to seen one where you rush into the back of a pander or striker or rotary wing with little to no notice, climb walls, crawl under fences, jump over trash/sewage ditches, fall off a roof, rush up narrow stairways where no single stair is the same height or depth/width, with a tangle of shit on the floor, in the dark. Conversely, serious tactical kit is not going to be advantageous in gun games.
Where are you doing it? Urban, permissive, semi permissive, non permissive, mountains, jungle, cold, dessert, ?...
Some cool sneaker booties, platehangers, and a couple of small pouches and a scoped DMR are going to kind of suck in the jungle for several days. Running around a quick in and out village in OEF in jungle boots, an 80 pound Alice pack with a suppressed SBR in winter with visibility for kilometers would not be cool.
When was the training? How current, how much? The gun techniques of 80s era SOT vs 90s SFAUC, post GWOT SFAUC/SFARTEC/OTC we’re not static. If you have done a dozen weekend courses with former operators, let’s say you have racked up the gun training of SFAUC. Do you do any maintenance training. What shape are you in. How stoic/resistant, no quit, are you. Are you detached / dissociated when surrounded by dead bodies and DGAF, or do you shake and quiver. How close to your 100% are you capable of with a torn biceps tendon, sprained ankle, broken fibula, etc.
What kind of budget do you have?
I needed to re barrel twice and one bolt replacement with my M4 in 8 years and replaced two recoil springs and one barrel preventively in my pistol during that time. I am not going to use that much ammo on my own budget.
How many guns do you have-
Is your use spread out amount a game gun, a home defense gun, a truck gun, and a hunting gun-
Or do you beat the piss out of one.
How much cleaning do you do- old school spotless mil cleaning does a ton of wear to your gun
What are your preferences-
Battery life or field of view, durability or feel of handguards, weight or shape of stock, etc.
You have to decide for yourself what level you think you are valid to weigh in on-
For example,
Some get pissed when I say their Sub2000 or CX4 is not a serious Carbine and has shit for durability.
Some get miffed when I tell a guy his bushmaster, Windham, S&W, etc. is just fine - they shot a hundred or so rounds a year and have it on hand for home defense or SHTF.
Others get miffed when I say the same guns are not going to cut it for their planned monthly three gun march, two classes a year, and 500 rounds a month of training.
I Won’t comment on mid priced vs expensive glass because I don’t have the skill and background.
I will say spend at least 400 bucks on red dots for go to guns.
When someone says they can run an ARX, AK, HK, M14, etc. as fast as an AR, I will call BS because you that means they suck too much to reap the advantages.
When someone starts talking aftermarket triggers, I shut up because I am not good enough to reap the advantages.
I really really really really like this post and hope it doesn’t get ignored.
I had someone tell me one time.
“There is complex, yet simple and then there is simply complex/complicated”
Just a good gun, of good parts, with excellent barrel and knowledge of THAT SPECIFIC GUN will do more than all the crap people dream up.
I hunt with my stuff. I shoot boar with it. Rifle and pistol alike. I carry it. I know its holds and personalities. Its limits. And it’s advantages.
People who just gun hoard and fad hop will never know that the guy who has shot his stuff over and over will smoke him all day. Every day. Eat his lunch. Bed his woman. And piss on his grave.
I’ve 3 gunned and was not competitive as much against JP Enterprise users but then again my stuff has seen duty, hunting, and sport.
I might get my ass kicked on an IPSC range but I never fret when my gun gets wet.
I also know that aside from a toy or two, I will probably never ever go back to a long barrel nor a fixed stock nor a carry handle sight. Possibly not even irons.
Perhaps that is the problem.
When I'm in the LGS and a customer is looking at a rifle, unless they directly ask me, I keep my mouth shut. Generally at that point unsolicited advice is not appreciated. Especially if the customer is talking to an employee.
Just how often does someone ask you to take a look at their rifle and give your impression?
Not so much at a lgs, but I'm amazed at how many guys will accept help at the local square range I go to for sight ins and just relaxed group shooting. Some guys are really lost in it all...like two buddies...one had his scope 8"-9" from his eye on an AR and the mount was loose, his buddy had a bolt action and again the mount was loose. I watched them struggle for a while and then just went for it...they were eager for the help. Lots of guys really struggle with getting the rifle sighted in and almost always will accept help. Haven't encountered a schmoe in quite a while. The last one was in a lgs about 3 months ago. I know some of the guys in the store so they let me hang out and shoot the breeze. This guy was with his son and picking up a pistol, so I, trying to be friendly, asked him what he bought. He was pretty hostile and acted like I just kick his dog...so I clammed up. Most people are pretty friendly and will converse.
Perhaps that is the problem.
When I'm in the LGS and a customer is looking at a rifle, unless they directly ask me, I keep my mouth shut. Generally at that point unsolicited advice is not appreciated. Especially if the customer is talking to an employee.
Just how often does someone ask you to take a look at their rifle and give your impression?
I was in a local gunshop and a guy asked me what the difference was between a commercial and milspec models of a stock he was looking at. Easy question, easy answer - then someone else asked me a basic question, then another, and before I knew it; I was surrounded by customers and had to explain I did not work there and was not the best dressed LGS employee ever...
I help when asked, but stick to basic questions with fact based answers when I can.
I really don't go to LGS's anymore. I'm talking about friends and acquaintances, not random strangers. I've done my best to steer them in the right direction and had them still buy a low grade gun that gave them problems right off the bat. Then they'll call and see if I can help them figure out why it's not working. I don't have time for that.
This is a great way to seperate friends from acquaintances. Friends ask for and heed advice.
OP, I would say your logic is a bit flawed. Firearm quality and proficiency with said firearm are two completely different things that really don't have anything to do with each other. No amount of training is going to make up for a crappy gun, and a lack of training doesn't mean that you can't benefit from a high quality firearm.
You probably shoot more than I do from the sound of it, but I can guarantee you don't shoot anywhere near enough to make any in depth evaluations on what is and isn't good to go. Those kinds of evaluations take many thousands of rounds spread out across many examples of any given firearm.
Price is also a poor metric for reliability. Even quality doesn't necessarily equate to reliability. There are some very expensive, extremely high quality firearms out there that I would love to compete with, for example, that I wouldn't trust for home defense. I know for a fact that my 800 dollar 6920 would shut down most much more expensive ARs, and probably all significantly less expensive ones. Not only do the parts wear longer than your value branded M4s, but the QC is better.
All I can say is that those of us who have been gun guys for a long time tend to gravitate towards what is tried and true. We like our Colt M4s, Glocks, Colt 1911s, and OKAY USGI mags. A tiny bit more expensive than the baseline DTI, and not nearly as flashy as most of the high end stuff, but it just plain works.
okie - You were going good until this: We like our Colt M4s, Glocks, Colt 1911s, and OKAY USGI mags.
Come on, the 1911 is what birthed the redundancy movement. You know, two is one and one is none.
okie - You were going good until this: We like our Colt M4s, Glocks, Colt 1911s, and OKAY USGI mags.
Come on, the 1911 is what birthed the redundancy movement. You know, two is one and one is none.I chuckled as well.
Though my view is the 1911 unreliability trope started with guns that had been tampered with (read accurized) by well meaning folks. Starting with the bullseye crowd.
I've seen ww2 surplus 1911s be absolutely reliable. All my old 70s and 80s Colts were, with the caveat you had to polish the feedramp on the 70's ones.
I still own an early 70s LW commander.
Tighten them up, and the problems begin. There is no need... Real 1911s rattle, or close to it. It's like folks worrying about AR upper to lower fit.
Not saying modern 9mms do not have advantages, they do. Just remember that in the 70s and 80s the 9mm was not the manstopper it is now with modern loadings.
It used to be hard to get hollow points without exposed lead, which was a big source of feeding issues in all autos. I think Hornady was the first with a rolled jacket over the hollow point. And also with truncated cone. Both changed things big time.
I used to have to dispose of rounds chambered 2-3 times as the hollow point would get deformed.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that some have done the same to Glocks and AR's. I've been fortunate to be around a lot of folks shooting a lot of ammunition and doing some serious training, etc and taking part in it as well. I've never seen or heard of so many problems with guns, etc than on this site and elsewhere, guess what the core issue is? I could start a serious poostorm on the items that "you have to have or it won't work" threads and then the threads wondering why their glow stick doesn't work right.
The bone stock guns with things that are necessary like lights, lasers and optics, gee run like a top. Those guns are run like a rented mule and work. I'm certain that guns with certain parts changed run fine also but are they truly necessary?
Doc Safari
04-04-19, 09:02
The bone stock guns with things that are necessary like lights, lasers and optics, gee run like a top. Those guns are run like a rented mule and work. I'm certain that guns with certain parts changed run fine also but are they truly necessary?
Finally the "Emperor has no clothes" moment on the internet. The public admission that leaving your gun the way it came from the factory is most of the time the best thing you can do to it.
And a chorus of angels followed....
Eurodriver
04-04-19, 09:37
Finally the "Emperor has no clothes" moment on the internet. The public admission that leaving your gun the way it came from the factory is most of the time the best thing you can do to it.
And a chorus of angels followed....
Like a Colt 6920!
*Gasp* but the markings!
Doc Safari
04-04-19, 09:41
Like a Colt 6920!
*Gasp* but the markings!
6720 with pencil barrel for the win! YMMV. But the principle still holds.
And we might add that thread title of yore: "Go Shoot the Gun!"
okie - You were going good until this: We like our Colt M4s, Glocks, Colt 1911s, and OKAY USGI mags.
Come on, the 1911 is what birthed the redundancy movement. You know, two is one and one is none.
I didn't say I liked 1911s, but if it must be then I would take a Colt over any of those "custom" dingleberries.
I chuckled as well.
Though my view is the 1911 unreliability trope started with guns that had been tampered with (read accurized) by well meaning folks. Starting with the bullseye crowd.
I've seen ww2 surplus 1911s be absolutely reliable. All my old 70s and 80s Colts were, with the caveat you had to polish the feedramp on the 70's ones.
I still own an early 70s LW commander.
Tighten them up, and the problems begin. There is no need... Real 1911s rattle, or close to it. It's like folks worrying about AR upper to lower fit.
Not saying modern 9mms do not have advantages, they do. Just remember that in the 70s and 80s the 9mm was not the manstopper it is now with modern loadings.
It used to be hard to get hollow points without exposed lead, which was a big source of feeding issues in all autos. I think Hornady was the first with a rolled jacket over the hollow point. And also with truncated cone. Both changed things big time.
I used to have to dispose of rounds chambered 2-3 times as the hollow point would get deformed.
It used to be common knowledge that the rattle trap 1911s were more reliable. They would start out pretty tight from the factory, and they had to be broken in, during which time you could expect malfunctions. Malfunctions during break in are almost unheard of now with modern pistols, but with 1911s they're a real thing.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that some have done the same to Glocks and AR's. I've been fortunate to be around a lot of folks shooting a lot of ammunition and doing some serious training, etc and taking part in it as well. I've never seen or heard of so many problems with guns, etc than on this site and elsewhere, guess what the core issue is? I could start a serious poostorm on the items that "you have to have or it won't work" threads and then the threads wondering why their glow stick doesn't work right.
The bone stock guns with things that are necessary like lights, lasers and optics, gee run like a top. Those guns are run like a rented mule and work. I'm certain that guns with certain parts changed run fine also but are they truly necessary?
Truth be told, the vast majority of aftermarket upgrades to a stock M4 are pretty unnecessary. Slap a Crane stock on it and you're good to go in my opinion. If I were in a long range scenario, like over in the middle east, I would want a Geissele trigger and free float rail, but the stock trigger and a RAS are gonna give you all the juice you can drink at home defense ranges.
Like a Colt 6920!
*Gasp* but the markings!
Damn it, Euro Don’t start that crap again. That thread literally gave me a headache!
Like a Colt 6920!
*Gasp* but the markings!
But can we color-fill? You can’t post it on the gram without color-fill.
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Truth be told, the vast majority of aftermarket upgrades to a stock M4 are pretty unnecessary. Slap a Crane stock on it and you're good to go in my opinion. If I were in a long range scenario, like over in the middle east, I would want a Geissele trigger and free float rail, but the stock trigger and a RAS are gonna give you all the juice you can drink at home defense ranges.
But should we as a society remain static and fail to advance because “its good enough”? If that attitude was universalized from our nations founding, where would we be today?
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But should we as a society remain static and fail to advance because “its good enough”? If that attitude was universalized from our nations founding, where would we be today?
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It's about simplicity, not laziness. Everything is a trade off. And for most people it's a financial decision, too. It's better to have a stock rifle with good bones than to have a blinged out PSA or something.
Doc Safari
04-04-19, 10:55
It's better to have a stock rifle with good bones than to have a blinged out {PIECE OF CRAP RIFLE} or something.
Another profound philosophical moment on the gun boards. (Boldface mine).
It's better to have a stock rifle with good bones than to have a blinged out PSA or something.
I don’t disagree with that. However, that doesn’t mean you can’t, as you so eloquently put it, “bling out” a Colt. It isn’t either bling a PSA or have a bone-stock Colt.
KAC has provided some real advancements. Geissele has provided serious upgrades, as well as many others. If we just say a 6920 is good enough in stock form and we never try to improve it, we will miss out on some real opportunities. I believe we can all agree the evolution of the AR15 from the early days until now makes it a better weapon.
I believe targeting the limitations and weak points is the key to evolution. Not adding “bling”.
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I don’t disagree with that. However, that doesn’t mean you can’t, as you so eloquently put it, “bling out” a Colt. It isn’t either bling a PSA or have a bone-stock Colt.
KAC has provided some real advancements. Geissele has provided serious upgrades, as well as many others. If we just say a 6920 is good enough in stock form and we never try to improve it, we will miss out on some real opportunities. I believe we can all agree the evolution of the AR15 from the early days until now makes it a better weapon.
I believe targeting the limitations and weak points is the key to evolution. Not adding “bling”.
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For sure, but it still comes down to trade offs. Like adding a free float rail will improve accuracy, but it adds weight and is going to be more sensitive to drops than a drop in rail, which is a consideration if you have a laser.
Or like adding an ambi charging handle is nice for the range, but maybe it'll get caught on something if you ever need your rifle in the middle of the night.
I think what it comes down to more than anything is not rocking the boat unless you have a very good reason to do so. That's why .gov policy makers are very hesitant to allow their users to make upgrades to their guns. Something seemingly benign can have unforeseen consequences. An example would be extended mag releases dropping mags when you sit down (that was a big problem in police departments for a while), or ambi safeties on SAO pistols getting flipped off by accident while the gun is holstered, like when you brush up against something. That was also a big problem, especially with 1911s.
I'm actually experiencing something along these lines myself right now. I put a 45* safety in my blinged out AR, and the other day it flipped itself off. It's not as stiff as a milspec safety, and the throw is short. I set it on the couch, and when I picked it back up the safety had come off. I know that would never have happened with a milspec safety.
Don’t let poorly engineered parts spoil you for advancement.
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Same thing for a trigger and free float rails. While a good trigger does make IT EASIER, with skill you can work with what you have in your hands. Free float rails, it's rather obvious that they provide a benefit if the shooter can manipulate the trigger and SEE what they are engaging. Other than that, it's not the end all and one can accomplish task with a stock gun.
grizzlyblake
04-04-19, 14:56
This is starting to sound like the old 1911 guys when Glocks came around. "If I can't handle it with 7 rounds I'm already done anyway" and all that.
Doc Safari
04-04-19, 14:58
This is starting to sound like the old 1911 guys when Glocks came around. "If I can't handle it with 7 rounds I'm already done anyway" and all that.
Not at all. It's more like, "If I can't handle a defensive situation with a good basic weapon then I won't be able to handle it with a heavily accessorized/modified one either."
Not at all. It's more like, "If I can't handle a defensive situation with a good basic weapon then I won't be able to handle it with a heavily accessorized/modified one either."
Define basic and heavily modified.
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Doc Safari
04-04-19, 15:33
Define basic and heavily modified.
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Basic would be a KISS factory rifle with the bare bones necessities: light, optic, rail, etc.
Heavily modified would be one that is extensively "upgraded" with different stock, FCG, free-floated rail, laser, foregrip, ergo pistol grip, etc.
In other words, it's a "need" versus "want" scenario. You might "want" to change out a bunch of things on the weapon but that doesn't necessarily mean you "need" to.
Of course "want" and "need" are somewhat subjective. Some people consider an optic a "want" item. Other people might consider a laser a "need" item.
Not at all. It's more like, "If I can't handle a defensive situation with a good basic weapon then I won't be able to handle it with a heavily accessorized/modified one either."
Define basic. Define heavily modified.
Seems to me most modifications increase speed. What wins a gunfight? The first round capable of taking the other party out of the fight.
For instance, I have a heavily modified P09. After modifications, my draw to A-zone hits improved by over half a second in DA.
I can dream up plenty of situations where a half second could change the outcome.
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Dang thing froze on me and didn’t show the first response came through. Disregard.
I really don’t consider stocks or rails heavy modifications. They aren’t permanent and don’t hinder function....and some rifles come with them out of the box.
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HelloLarry
04-04-19, 15:44
Why do I feel stupid for having read this thread?
"Hi! My name is HelloLarry and I have a sucker problem."
ramairthree
04-04-19, 15:57
Basic vs heavily modified.....
Again, time and place specific.
Used to be a M16A1 or CAR with basic sling. Period.
Maybe a carry handle scope.
Then tape a maglight to it for EPW/search.
Maybe a jungle carry sling.
Maybe tape some mags together.
Then a RDS.
Then a usable sling.
Then rails.
Then PEQ.
Then vertical grips because your drop in rails had no place left to grip.
Etc, etc.
Right now I would say a basic carbine should have a RDS or LPVO/prism, with QR base and BUIS, or no QR base and offset BUIS,
A two point rapid adjust sling,
A light.
Basically, sights, optic, sling, light.
That is achievable with just handguards.
Next step would be rugged drop in or free float rail or rail like forend.
Next would be IR/vis laser-
It tends to be slower to tag savages trying to line up your nods with your sight vs just lase them.
Then there is a plethora of stuff. I used to be against QD slings as just a failure point. But at least one point if you are doing on or over water stuff.
Basic vs heavily modified.....
Again, time and place specific.
Used to be a M16A1 or CAR with basic sling. Period.
Maybe a carry handle scope.
Then tape a maglight to it for EPW/search.
Maybe a jungle carry sling.
Maybe tape some mags together.
Then a RDS.
Then a usable sling.
Then rails.
Then PEQ.
Then vertical grips because your drop in rails had no place left to grip.
Etc, etc.
Right now I would say a basic carbine should have a RDS or LPVO/prism, with QR base and BUIS, or no QR base and offset BUIS,
A two point rapid adjust sling,
A light.
Basically, sights, optic, sling, light.
That is achievable with just handguards.
Next step would be rugged drop in or free float rail or rail like forend.
Next would be IR/vis laser-
It tends to be slower to tag savages trying to line up your nods with your sight vs just lase them.
Then there is a plethora of stuff. I used to be against QD slings as just a failure point. But at least one point if you are doing on or over water stuff.
Hit..
Doc Safari
04-04-19, 16:03
Different strokes for different folks, but if you sit there at the keyboard saying to yourself, " A __________ would be nice," then in my opinion it's a "want" item.
If you sit there saying to yourself, "I have to have ___________________," then it's probably a "need" item.
I don't see any need for fancy stocks, FCG's, $250 rails or a bunch of other stuff. But a flashlight is a "must". That's what I'm talking about. YMMV.
I see you would agree, the rifle is still evolving and the rewards are speed.
If a trigger replacement can net you .5 seconds to an A zone over stock, why would you not want that?
If you close the door to things like that, the rifle doesn’t continue to evolve and remains static.
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Meanwhile, I'm back from the range having shot 10 mags through two of my rifles. And 200 rounds through my 19X and my M&P 2.0. I'm thinking the 19X is getting ready to take the 2.0's place for action pistol.
I learned a long time ago that if I simply don't take more ammo than I plan to shoot, then I won't shoot more than I planned.
Both rifles shot flawlessly - they are both mongrel parts builds.
If you actually shoot them you can generally keep things working.
There are tangible improvements to the platform. I don’t think many here really disagree with that. But these incremental and evolutionary improvements don’t come from PSA or Bushmaster. Their idea of an incremental improvement is skipping a vital manufacturing or QA/QC process to add 93 cents to their bottom line. I had a Bushy. Eff that gun.
A good basic rifle is the Colt 6920, 6720, or Trooper. If you are buying cheaper than that, it is a false economy, if you actually plan in shooting it. However, if your plans are to shoot 300 rnds, put it away forever, and post on TFB about how it functions “flawlessly”, then sure, buy a PSA. You have to actually shoot it to run into problems.
If you want an improved, highly modified rifle, buy an SR15 or LMT MARS. But its evolutionary, not revolutionary. Honestly most rifles from boutique brands only really offer a nice handguard over a Colt, or maybe some neat ambi features. The other improvements tend to go unnoticed in actual use.
As Ramairthree was saying, accessorize according to mission to maximize your strengths and minimize your weaknesses..... But start with a good rifle and accessorize only as much as necessary, and as little as possible because all mods and accessories have a penalty, even if its only weight. Be realistic about your requirements and purpose.
Buy a second fire extinguisher instead of a bipod. Quit smoking; it’ll get you kilt in da streetz. Re-appropriate booze money to buy a proper rifle so you don’t have to replace half the parts in your PSA rifle. If you can’t afford a decent rifle, thats a priority thing. Buy ammo, too. But don’t just dump it into the berm. Learn from it.
I’m going drink some Tequila.
Dang thing froze on me and didn’t show the first response came through. Disregard.
I really don’t consider stocks or rails heavy modifications. They aren’t permanent and don’t hinder function....and some rifles come with them out of the box.
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I agree with that. M4 stocks SUCK, and should be swapped out for Crane stocks at the earliest opportunity. You get a much better cheek weld, and it's faster to acquire your sights and you can control the recoil better and make faster follow up shots.
I wouldn't categorize rails as a heavy modification either. Without them, mounting a light can be tricky.
modt people shoot better on instragram anyways and instagram is twitter for illiterartes
6720 with pencil barrel for the win! YMMV. But the principle still holds.
And we might add that thread title of yore: "Go Shoot the Gun!"
Well Doc...........you finally pushed me over the edge...........6720 is pending shipment to my FFL.........I've been Coltified........Thank You
grizzlyblake
04-05-19, 06:27
Seems popular to tell potential new shooter dudes to go buy a basic M4 type carbine and learn to deal with the stock furniture and iron sights, maybe add a cheap G2X light, and then later on, maybe once they're good enough they can buy an Aimpoint PRO or something.
But the guns that guys set up for their wives or kids are generally using the latest nice stuff to make them easier to shoot, and thus easier for the shooter to hit what they want. FF rails, LW barrels, good triggers, furniture, etc.
It's a funny rite of passage that guys here want to make new shooters earn their stripes on the old stuff before they're approved to get the good stuff or something.
Doc Safari
04-05-19, 09:07
Well Doc...........you finally pushed me over the edge...........6720 is pending shipment to my FFL.........I've been Coltified........Thank You
You will love it. When firing offhand at 100 yards toward a teeny tiny target so small you have to really hold granite-like steady you will say, "Who needs an M4 Government profile barrel?"
So my question is, what do the people posting these statements think is the right amount of range time/rounds down range to qualify them to professionally report on what is GTG or NOT? What amount makes you no longer average?
.
I'd only add that time at the range does not seem to reflect knowledge at all. I know guys who have been in the gym for 40 years, who still don't have a clue what they're doing. While they may have more knowledge than the newbie walking into the gym for first time, much of that knowledge if anything is counter productive. We all know those guys who live at the range, been there for decades, still don't know chit and hand out bad advice. There's also those guys who have BTDT, but that does not make them gun guys per se. Point being, no simple or single metric will "...qualify them to professionally report on what is GTG or NOT?"
Many do of course just repeat what they have read elsewhere at places like Arf.com and such, much of it wrong. Me, I try to pay attention to the SMEs. What makes an SME on any topic appears to be a combination of factors.
Perhaps the better Q is, what makes someone an SME or knowledgeable person to qualify them to professionally report on what is GTG or NOT, in this case ARs
Simple range time would not quality if in my view.
I'd only add that time at the range does not seem to reflect knowledge at all. I know guys who have been in the gym for 40 years, who still don't have a clue what they're doing. While they may have more knowledge than the newbie walking into the gym for first time, much of that knowledge if anything is counter productive. We all know those guys who live at the range, been there for decades, still don't know chit and hand out bad advice. There's also those guys who have BTDT, but that does not make them gun guys per se. Point being, no simple or single metric will "...qualify them to professionally report on what is GTG or NOT?"
Many do of course just repeat what they have read elsewhere at places like Arf.com and such, much of it wrong. Me, I try to pay attention to the SMEs. What makes an SME on any topic appears to be a combination of factors.
Perhaps the better Q is, what makes someone an SME or knowledgeable person to qualify them to professionally report on what is GTG or NOT, in this case ARs
Simple range time would not quality if in my view.
We used to have a saying at the PD about the 20 year veteran who is ROD (retired on duty). They don’t have 20 years experience they have 1 year of experience 20 times.
Seems popular to tell potential new shooter dudes to go buy a basic M4 type carbine and learn to deal with the stock furniture and iron sights, maybe add a cheap G2X light, and then later on, maybe once they're good enough they can buy an Aimpoint PRO or something.
But the guns that guys set up for their wives or kids are generally using the latest nice stuff to make them easier to shoot, and thus easier for the shooter to hit what they want. FF rails, LW barrels, good triggers, furniture, etc.
It's a funny rite of passage that guys here want to make new shooters earn their stripes on the old stuff before they're approved to get the good stuff or something.
Because a gun for a new shooter is for a new shooter.
A gun for for the wife is for both of us. Its set up mainly for her (stock position, light placement), but its similar to other one so either of us can use either gun efficiently.
…...
Many do of course just repeat what they have read elsewhere at places like Arf.com and such, much of it wrong. Me, I try to pay attention to the SMEs. What makes an SME on any topic appears to be a combination of factors.
Perhaps the better Q is, what makes someone an SME or knowledgeable person to qualify them to professionally report on what is GTG or NOT, in this case ARs
Simple range time would not quality if in my view.
I agree. A lot of people regurgitate what they've read on the internet without any practical or teaching experience. Some people have a lot of experience with one category, field experience, competition or teaching and they don't drive outside their lane and post as if they have experience in all three categories.
Someone who applies what they teach and spends serious time keeping their skill level at an acceptable level may expend anywhere from 500 rounds to 2,000 rounds or more per month. If you send 6,000 to 24,000 rounds down range each year, you should have an idea about what needs lube, maintenance intervals and what breaks at what interval.
It's hard to reap solid information off the internet. Verify what you read on the internet through other means and sources.
I shoot on public land. I see people there almost every time. I'm the only person who actually brings targets...most people shoot the ground, bottles, pots and even lettuce.
Most shooters know as much about their weapon as people do their cars- very little. Nor do they plan to use their weapon seriously.
I shoot on public land. I see people there almost every time. I'm the only person who actually brings targets...most people shoot the ground, bottles, pots and even lettuce.
Most shooters know as much about their weapon as people do their cars- very little. Nor do they plan to use their weapon seriously.
Where do the rounds go when they ricochet off the ground?
Seems popular to tell potential new shooter dudes to go buy a basic M4 type carbine and learn to deal with the stock furniture and iron sights, maybe add a cheap G2X light, and then later on, maybe once they're good enough they can buy an Aimpoint PRO or something.
But the guns that guys set up for their wives or kids are generally using the latest nice stuff to make them easier to shoot, and thus easier for the shooter to hit what they want. FF rails, LW barrels, good triggers, furniture, etc.
It's a funny rite of passage that guys here want to make new shooters earn their stripes on the old stuff before they're approved to get the good stuff or something.
I think different standards are applied to "enthusiast" gun owners, vs someone who will only end up using a firearm in a life or death situation.
In the latter case, making the gun as easy and effective to use is a priority.
In the former case, if you want to be a serious "gun guy" which most of us on this site probably fancy ourselves to one degree or another, I think there is an unspoken expectation that a "gun guy"
needs to master all aspects of their weapon, to include basic things like iron sights and milspec triggers, vs cutting one's teeth on "crutches" like red dots and fancy rails right at the outset. Once you've put in your time on the basics though, than you've "earned" enough gun guy cred to move on to the luxury items.
I know that in my case, I do a lot of iron sight shooting still, due in part I think to a personal bias that while optics are an important enhancement, "real" rifleman can get shit done with irons if need be.
The American tradition of "rugged individualism" has a lot to do with our reverence for individual marksmanship. The concept of a lone rifleman, who knows his rifle, knows his craft, and can make his hits, taps into something in our psyches.
Where do the rounds go when they ricochet off the ground?
Into a 90 degree swath of National Forest. Which is one of several reasons one SC’s public ranges is on the chopping block. And also one of the reasons I only shoot there if the weather discourages Bubba.
Hammered_Pair
04-06-19, 13:49
Weapons discounted the differences between "average joe" and "trained shooter" have more to do with skill set, purpose and technical knowledge, a "trained shooter" can get more out of a "crap" weapon and "average joe" can turn a ferrari into a yugo.......... Mindset, purpose, and expectations are key differences.
Now a trained shooter with good working knowledge of the weapon system can put together a gun that will outperform anything in the government inventory, the after market has put forth considerable money into research and development and pushed the design to levels that were not possible 20 years ago.
That being said, anyone can do the research and learn what makes for good, better, and best components and with a decent budget can assemble a top notch weapon, the key is getting the training to get the most out of the weapon you have and then step up from there.
I don't like to bag on anyone, we all started somewhere as untrained, undisciplined kids and Uncle Scrooge beat a new lifestyle and mindset into us. I am competent in my skills, but by no means am I the end all be all at them, there is always room for improvement.
Where do the rounds go when they ricochet off the ground?
Good question. I've found a lot of bullets in the ground, so I assume ricochet doesn't happen to often. At my spot, at least, there are back stops that people just shoot at. Another sad thing is that all the trash people bring to shoot is never cleaned up. I don't understand it. I always police my brass, and never have trash.
voiceofreason
04-21-19, 23:14
If someone is willing to spend the coin up front rather than "upgrade over time"... it's a better more efficient way to go. Gets the gear/equipment thinking/choices out of the way so they can focus on just shooting/skillset. Easy to learn when things don't keep changing ergonomically.
Personally, if they're not going into harms way soon, I recommend shooting with a red dot FIRST. Gives the shooter time to acclimate to shooting an AR and the controls.
Run irons only after a thousand rounds or so and they can focus on the sights more exclusively rather than learning everything at once.
Most importantly, but quality rifle to start. Accessories and optics can always be added later. So if someone is on a budget, get the higher quality gun and go the upgrade path rather than get the lower quality gun with the nice optic and furniture.
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