View Full Version : Do you think extended magazine releases are a potential problem?
Skyline_12
03-29-19, 10:10
I have to shift my grip around a bit to reach the magazine button, which I'd like to avoid doing for the sake of speed in reloading. I also want my wife to be more comfortable working the controls on the AR15 as well.
My concern is: Would I be increasing the chance of accidently hitting the magazine release while moving around, bumping into things, or during stressful use such as in competition or self-defense where my finger placement may not be exactly where I intended?
If my finger is up in the resting position outside the trigger it seems the odds of it hitting that button is greatly increased simply by misplacing where I rest my finger when not shooting.
I suppose the only defense against that is the button being somewhat hard to press so errant hand placement or bumping into stuff is less likely to trigger it.
Do you think it increases the chances of getting caught up on gear or obstructions? It doesn't seem like it probably would, but I've seen people complain about extended button controls on AR15s claiming it's all more likely to get caught up on something when you don't want it to.
If you have any opinions or experiences on whether one type of extended mag release is better than another I'd appreciate your input. From the reviews I probably would avoid Odin works because some said it didn't release well if you tried hitting only the tip. I personally seem drawn to the magpul as a simple but effective looking design, but their reputation for quality probably plays a role in that as well.
Battle Arms:
https://www.rainierarms.com/battle-arms-development-bad-emmr-enhanced-modular-magazine-release/
Odin Works:
https://www.rainierarms.com/odin-works-xmr-gen-3-extended-mag-release/
Phase 5:
https://www.rainierarms.com/phase-5-tactical-oversized-magazine-release-omr/
Rainier Arms:
https://www.rainierarms.com/rainier-arms-emmr-mag-release/
Magpul:
http://www.majorpandemic.com/2015/11/magpul-enhanced-ar-magazine-release-review.html
Question, why was the fence added to the slab side M16? That right their is your answer. IMO range toy whatever, duty gun don't do it. I am really surprised to find reputable companies like Magpul and Rainer offering things like this that will degrade duty rifle performance but $$$.
Skyline_12
03-29-19, 10:42
Question, why was the fence added to the slab side M16? That right their is your answer.
That answers it partially. It says finger placement is a problem so you need tactile feedback about how far is too far.
But, it doesn't answer the question about whether or not these extended magazine releases actually end up causing problems for people who try to use them in real situations outside of range practice like hunting, competition, or law enforcement/military.
Your comment about the fence could imply it's not a problem because with the fence there you should be able to keep your finger away from the button easily enough.
But then there's the fact that it's still bigger, meaning the odds of hitting it, or hitting it up against something, are potentially increased regardless of the fence being there.
I think only those who have used it for significant amounts of time in those types of situations (hunting/competition/duty) are likely to discover whether or not the increased speed of finding and hitting the button for a reload, as well as not breaking your grip, is going to outweigh the potential risk of dropping a mag accidently (assuming it is even a risk at all).
I'd like to know what the experience of others with these has been.
In my opinion, it is inevitable that the extended releases you linked to will result in inadvertent magazine ejection.
In my expirience, it will occur at the worst possible time.
For a competition or range gun, sure, but not for a police, military or self defense weapon.
Even though I'm left-handed, I've used this one on a rifle: https://www.odinworks.com/XMR_p/acc-xmr.htm can't say anything bad about it.
If you think about the mechanism of the mag release it makes sense that offsetting the pressure too far from the screw post (for lack of a batter term) could cause 'some' increased resistance due to torquing the release button against the receiver. This would seemingly be a negligible resistance so long as the components didn't have rough surfaces - which they shouldn't.
Currently I have the KAC 'coolie hat' oversized release on most of my rifles, I'd offer it as an excellent choice, but unfortunately, I'd don't believe it comes separate from their ambi-release:
https://www.strongsidetactical.com/knights-armament-ambi-magazine-release/
As far a catching on something, an extended release definitely increases the likelihood that it can become snagged when compared to the standard catch. Look at the situation comparative to the standard bolt catch and, then, to commonly added upgrades such as extended/oversized bolt catches and ambi magazine releases. Taken from that perspective, how much of a concern should you have?
ETA: The magazine release fence was added primarily to address concerns of accidental release of the magazine by dropping or dragging.
How many folks on this forum have replaced the standard Glock mag release with an extended mag release from Vickers or another source?
OP, what grip is on the rifle? I have found it unusual for right handed shooters to struggle with stock mag releases.
Hammer_Man
03-29-19, 11:27
They are dumb, and only useful to tactitards making tacticool instagoogle pictures.
Skyline_12
03-29-19, 12:05
OP, what grip is on the rifle? I have found it unusual for right handed shooters to struggle with stock mag releases.
It's a GWACS lower, with a steep grip angle, but I'm not sure how it's angle differs from the standard.
It depends on how I'm holding the rifle. I can roll my hand forward more to get a better purchase on the button but it's not as comfortable on my hand to hold that position. My hand naturally wants to hold it in a way, as I bring the rifle up, where my finger either doesn't touch the mag release or only barely does.
Held up tight against my shoulder with a tight grip my finger comes forward over the button enough to release the mag, but the center of my finger still isn't centered over it which makes it more difficult to press. Getting better leverage feels like I'm rolling my hand too far forward and straining it.
But the stiffness of the release button seems to be partially due to the Norgon ambi mag release I installed which is a very tight fit compared with the standard mag release. I don't know if it's also the fact that I have a new colt mag release spring installed, because the old one (which I didn't buy but which came with the used lower) was like half the size (I don't know if it compressed from age or they cut it down to reduce spring pressure and make pressing the button easier). I didn't have this problem feeling like the mag was too difficult to release when the old used standard mag release and spring were in there.
It's a GWACS lower, with a steep grip angle, but I'm not sure how it's angle differs from the standard.
It depends on how I'm holding the rifle. I can roll my hand forward more to get a better purchase on the button but it's not as comfortable on my hand to hold that position. My hand naturally wants to hold it in a way, as I bring the rifle up, where my finger either doesn't touch the mag release or only barely does.
Held up tight against my shoulder with a tight grip my finger comes forward over the button enough to release the mag, but the center of my finger still isn't centered over it which makes it more difficult to press. Getting better leverage feels like I'm rolling my hand too far forward and straining it.
But the stiffness of the release button seems to be partially due to the Norgon ambi mag release I installed which is a very tight fit compared with the standard mag release. I don't know if it's also the fact that I have a new colt mag release spring installed, because the old one (which I didn't buy but which came with the used lower) was like half the size (I don't know if it compressed from age or they cut it down to reduce spring pressure and make pressing the button easier). I didn't have this problem feeling like the mag was too difficult to release when the old used standard mag release and spring were in there.
Ok, I half expected that you were using a grip with a large beavertail. It sounds like the Norgon is at least part of the problem. I don’t own one, so I can’t be sure that it will still work properly, but perhaps backing the mag release out two turns could reduce the tension enough to save you a few bucks. I personally avoid extended mag releases except in my gamer pistols, and even then I use factory parts from another model.
This dimension may be your problem. On a conventional lower it measures 2 1/2 inches +/-. It sure looks longer on your receiver. Maybe they had to bulk it up to keep from breaking apart. What does the GWACS measure? https://i.imgur.com/q5v6Lgw.jpg
This dimension may be your problem. On a conventional lower it measures 2 1/2 inches +/-. It sure looks longer on your receiver. Maybe they had to bulk it up to keep from breaking apart. What does the GWACS measure? https://i.imgur.com/q5v6Lgw.jpg
In the picture, that does appear to have a similar trigger reach to a big beavertailed grip. Maybe even longer.
We seem to be the only manufacturer concerned about it, it was known to us in 2014.
I wrote about this in 2015, a warning is in our EMR-C (blind hole, taller profile) to not use it for duty or defense because of its installed height over the fence, the warning language is still there, and we moved EMR-C to 308 AR section to further discourage its use on AR15s.
http://www.forwardcontrolsdesign.com/EMR-or-EMR-C_ep_55-1.html
I recently updated our thoughts on this matter in a new article on our site http://www.forwardcontrolsdesign.com/Overcorrection_ep_69-1.html
During our EMR development, we took a careful look in everything, especially the parts our new design would be working with. The "ramp" part of the mag catch plate is but 0.05 in height, which means anything over 0.06 protruding over the mag release fence will effectively render the fence useless. EMR doesn't protrude over the fence when installed properly (9 full turns of the mag catch)
EMR-C that has a taller profile is great for 308 ARs when an AR15 spec mag catch is in use, its top doesn't protrude over a 308 AR's mag release fence, if it has one.
https://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i314/Duffypoo/EMRC308cmt_zps7ka5lrpc.jpg (https://s75.photobucket.com/user/Duffypoo/media/EMRC308cmt_zps7ka5lrpc.jpg.html)
Extended mag release buttons that have a rearward extension have their uses, namely, for users with small hands and short fingers, but at the cost of having the button protrude a great deal over the fence, off-axis travel of the mag release, and becoming more snag prone. Single feature for a limited number of users with multiple shortcomings isn't a solution for most.
As it is, many users have to curl their index fingers to reach the magazine button, placing the pad further back isn't helpful.
The 2019 production of our EMR-A (ambi mag catch) now has the LP (low profile) shaft as standard, it is precisely one full revolution of the mag catch shorter. When installed with a TDP spec or our EMR, the top surface of the mag release button sits below the fence further. We also increased the height of the "ramp" on the mag catch plate to make it more difficult to accidentally drop a mag, the user has to make a conscious effort to do it. It's like the antithesis of the taller or extended mag buttons, as it aims to do the opposite of what these things do.
https://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i314/Duffypoo/EMRALP_zpsnan1h0ur.png (https://s75.photobucket.com/user/Duffypoo/media/EMRALP_zpsnan1h0ur.png.html)
Question, why was the fence added to the slab side M16? That right their is your answer. IMO range toy whatever, duty gun don't do it. I am really surprised to find reputable companies like Magpul and Rainer offering things like this that will degrade duty rifle performance but $$$.
Agreed. Mag releases, bolt stops, and selectors NEVER get replaces with after market nonsense on ANY of my guns.
ViniVidivici
03-29-19, 15:22
I see no need for them.
See it as another way for folks to waste money and show off their stupidity to friends over cheap beer. Without exaggeration, a friend has this selector lever that is at least 1/2"thick and 1 1/4"-1 1/2" long and some goofy mag button the size of a dime. A great friend but I still can't convince him that a 1n7 can shoot 55 grain ball.
Before you make mods like what your wondering about, I suggest you seek out training if you haven't done so. That way you can get proper instruction and test out the gear you have, and at the same time you will see what works and doesn't work for others. Also I would suggest using your middle finger while your shooting with your right hand to help with reloads.
Here's what I learned about this topic:
I have Odinworks extended mag releases on two of my main rifles. Last year I took a carbine class in which we fought from inside and around vehicles. I was in the driver's seat, and had my 11.5" SBR wedged between the seat and console beside my right leg. When I grabbed the gun to engage the targets outside, the mag fell out of my gun and onto the floor requiring me to do an unplanned reload from my belt which isn't super convenient in a sedan, while wearing a seatbelt.
The extended mag release had become depressed by wedging it into the seat and console.
But hey, if you don't go down in flames in class, you're not getting your money's worth, right? Lesson learned: The extended release was comfortable and easy to reach, but wasn't really solving a PROBLEM I had, it was just a nice addon that made the gun a little easier to use...until it didn't.
OP, I have one similar to the Battle Arms extended mag release on my comp rifle. I move around quite a bit in a 3gun match and have never even remotely come close to dropping a mag when I didn't want to. It's $20 and if it makes the gun fit you and your wife better...try it. Although I must say I never wedged my stick between a console and seat of a vehicle. But then who's to say a regular mag release wouldn't have done the same thing...be careful when you wedge your piece.
OP, I have one similar to the Battle Arms extended mag release on my comp rifle. I move around quite a bit in a 3gun match and have never even remotely come close to dropping a mag when I didn't want to. It's $20 and if it makes the gun fit you and your wife better...try it. Although I must say I never wedged my stick between a console and seat of a vehicle. But then who's to say a regular mag release wouldn't have done the same thing...be careful when you wedge your piece.
It does sit out quite a ways from the receiver. I'm the only one who had that problem out of 12 or so people. If anything, a USGI button would have a much lower chance of being inadvertently activated.
It does sit out quite a ways from the receiver. I'm the only one who had that problem out of 12 or so people. If anything, a USGI button would have a much lower chance of being inadvertently activated.
That last part was a little tongue in cheek. We all have different and for the most part valid experiences...weird thinks happen.
That last part was a little tongue in cheek. We all have different and for the most part valid experiences...weird thinks happen.
It is amazing how much these threads can make you think - I'll probably leave the Odin extended mag release on my wife's AR, BUT after looking at the height above the fence of my KAC 'coolie hat' releases I'll probably be removing them.
Skyline_12
03-30-19, 16:47
This dimension may be your problem. On a conventional lower it measures 2 1/2 inches +/-. It sure looks longer on your receiver. Maybe they had to bulk it up to keep from breaking apart. What does the GWACS measure? https://i.imgur.com/q5v6Lgw.jpg
That may be it. I just measured the two areas you marked and got a measurement of 2 7/8 inches. Good to know that is going on because I never would have guessed that could be the cause.
I tried using a BAD extended magazine release on someone else's rifle and was surprised to find that I felt like the elevated height of the button felt a little more awkward to use. Instead of just bringing my finger up and in I had to bring it out and up before bringing it in.
Apparently it's also that elevated height which also poses a potential danger of accidential release.
I suppose if one of the buttons had low height while also being extended it would be the superior choice.
Life is a trade off. Don't think that any one of them don't have a downside.
In this case, 'easier access' is completely true - but not just for your hands and fingers.
Mag release buttons that stick out of the fence not only poses greater accidental/unintended mag drop risks, it feel awkward.
In addition to having to curl your index finger more, these buttons/levers protrude laterally enough that you'd need to bend your finger outward to get to them.
Acceptable trade off if your finger just can't reach it, I'd advise weighing what you gain against the flaws these designs all share.
I’ll preface by “I don’t use this for duty,” but I would partially disagree on negatives beyond potentially dropping a mag if unintentionally pressed. My hands seem to be average, and the Odin extended mag releases allow a larger contact surface for my forefinger. For me at least, this requires less effort to press the button and release the mag; my hand stays more “relaxed.” We’re talking ludicrously minimal differences, but I can notice and would not say that there is no benefit to the larger release.
Certainly, as others have pointed out, there is the possibility of accidentally dropped the magazine... And I would add to that all extended releases I have seen also add one more potential “snag,” though I do not personally consider this a large risk.
Also, at least with the newer Odin release I have (unlike Magpul’s), there is at least equal and possibly less lateral movement required, as the design angles the release closer to the lower receiver.
Pictures as reference for the Gen 3 mag release from Odin. The Gen 2 I have I think is not quite as tight to the lower receiver, but close.
https://www.odinworks.com/XMR_GEN_III_p/acc-xmr-3.htm
Levers provide mechanical advantage. On our EMR-A (ambi mag catch) we worked to offset the force magnification, a lever that’s easier to press in this case isn’t desirable for our application. The resulting 31% stiffer spring was created to make the lever harder to actuate.
For recreational use, the increased risks for accidental/unintended mag drops is an inconvenience. For defense and duty, it’s more serious.
Both the size of the grip and the fixed LOP are probably working against you.
Have you tried a carbine with a standard grip and the stock set a little shorter?
Vltor lowers have an oversize mag catch button, it's machined so the button doesn't stick out.
I have to shift my grip around a bit to reach the magazine button, which I'd like to avoid doing for the sake of speed in reloading. I also want my wife to be more comfortable working the controls on the AR15 as well.
My concern is: Would I be increasing the chance of accidently hitting the magazine release while moving around, bumping into things, or during stressful use such as in competition or self-defense where my finger placement may not be exactly where I intended?
If my finger is up in the resting position outside the trigger it seems the odds of it hitting that button is greatly increased simply by misplacing where I rest my finger when not shooting.
I suppose the only defense against that is the button being somewhat hard to press so errant hand placement or bumping into stuff is less likely to trigger it.
Do you think it increases the chances of getting caught up on gear or obstructions? It doesn't seem like it probably would, but I've seen people complain about extended button controls on AR15s claiming it's all more likely to get caught up on something when you don't want it to.
If you have any opinions or experiences on whether one type of extended mag release is better than another I'd appreciate your input. From the reviews I probably would avoid Odin works because some said it didn't release well if you tried hitting only the tip. I personally seem drawn to the magpul as a simple but effective looking design, but their reputation for quality probably plays a role in that as well.
Battle Arms:
https://www.rainierarms.com/battle-arms-development-bad-emmr-enhanced-modular-magazine-release/
Odin Works:
https://www.rainierarms.com/odin-works-xmr-gen-3-extended-mag-release/
Phase 5:
https://www.rainierarms.com/phase-5-tactical-oversized-magazine-release-omr/
Rainier Arms:
https://www.rainierarms.com/rainier-arms-emmr-mag-release/
Magpul:
http://www.majorpandemic.com/2015/11/magpul-enhanced-ar-magazine-release-review.html
The question is what is causing you to shift your grip and what solutions can we find to the problem? Do you have smaller hands/shorter fingers? What polymer grip do you have on your gun? Some of them extend behind the reciever to fill the hand more, but the tradeoff is a farther reach to hit the magazine release. If that is the case, could switching to something like an A2 or any grip that doesn't partially extend behind the lower reciver solve the problem? If that is not the problem I say go ahead and run the mag release extention, I have one installed on one of my AR's for a few years now just as an experiment, (even with my stubby fingers I can reach the mag release with an A2 grip without having to shift) I've had that rifle out running around in the woods, sometimes with other gear on, never had any snag or malfunction issues, I would say having the ability to hit the mag release without shifting your grip should trump any worries about snagging things on the extended magazine release. Just pick a quality one and you'll be GTG
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