View Full Version : Windham retro
If interested, seems like a fair price for a retro type. Yeah, it's not a Colt, BCM, etc. Certain it will provide reliable service. Didn't see info on Windham's site
https://www.sportsmansoutdoorsuperstore.com/products2.cfm/ID/216843?utm_source=032919&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=032919
Hmm looks to be an A2 profile barrel though, which is a bit lazy on Windham's part (Although still a better effort than Stag's "Retro" offering) Although if you were to stick some A2 handguards on that you'd have a decent approximation of a Colt RO715.
...Although it seems a mishmash of A1/A2 features. Maybe they'll have a "Gen 2" that will be closer to original A1 specs?
https://www.sportsmansoutdoorsuperstore.com/products2.cfm/ID/216843
...Although it seems a mishmash of A1/A2 features. Maybe they'll have a "Gen 2" that will be closer to original A1 specs?
https://www.sportsmansoutdoorsuperstore.com/products2.cfm/ID/216843
I was going to start a thread on this, and for the same reasons. Windham came so close with the concept, but struck out where it counts. The barrel needed to be lightweight, not A2/ GOV. The stock being A2 length is another failure, but honestly that is something I could have lived with and swapped out if I wanted later on. However, the barrel kills it, and not because of the modern twist rate, but because of the profile.
The money the company saved by not using a 625 FSB, and staying with their existing 750 shows their lack of market understanding.
I applaud the concept, but rue the execution.
.
.
.
.
.
https://www.sportsmansoutdoorsuperstore.com/prodimages/60815-DEFAULT-l.jpg
I mentioned this in the Retro forum, where someone else had posted a link to this, but with a swap out to some A2 handguards, you could at least have a serviceable RO715/C7 clone. (Because I'm assuming the upper is going to have a brass deflector too, I just used a Windham C7 style upper for my 733 clone and didn't see an actual "A1" upper on their site).
In my experience, Windham makes a quality AR. But anyone wanting a rifle that is much closer to the original A1 configuration would be better served with the Brownell's Retro model. And if you hit one of their sales (as I did) it's even cheaper than the (projected) Windham version.
halfmoonclip
03-29-19, 23:42
A VietNam era buddy asked me about this; the heavy barrel issue is what I mentioned to him. Hadn't realized it was an A2 stock (tho' this guy is big enough it wouldn't matter), and I swapped an A1 on an A2 CHPS carbine for the same reason. How is Brownells doing with their retros? Haven't looked lately.
Moon
Renegade04
03-30-19, 08:40
I mentioned this in the Retro forum, where someone else had posted a link to this, but with a swap out to some A2 handguards, you could at least have a serviceable RO715/C7 clone. (Because I'm assuming the upper is going to have a brass deflector too, I just used a Windham C7 style upper for my 733 clone and didn't see an actual "A1" upper on their site).
This would be the best use of that configuration. The upper they use is a C7 type. With everything being A2 related other than the handguards, pistol grip, and the slip ring, throwing on a set of A2 handguards and an A2 pistol grip would be perfect. Of course, the slip ring would be wrong for a true RO715/C7 clone, but it would be much closer to that than anything else.
This would be the best use of that configuration. The upper they use is a C7 type. With everything being A2 related other than the handguards, pistol grip, and the slip ring, throwing on a set of A2 handguards and an A2 pistol grip would be perfect. Of course, the slip ring would be wrong for a true RO715/C7 clone, but it would be much closer to that than anything else.
Ah, in getting distracted by the A2 barrel I didn't even notice the slip ring. I'm actually somewhat surprised Windham bothered with that considering the other pretty glaring incorrect aspects.
If you wanted a 715/C7, I guess worst case scenario you could pull the barrel and put a Delta Ring on there.
Of course it's possible that this is just a placeholder photo and the actual production version might be a bit more A1 correct.
The money the company saved by not using a 625 FSB, and staying with their existing 750 shows their lack of market understanding.
]
They have recently started offering pencil profile carbine barrel assemblies on their site, so they apparently have .625 FSBs. So there's really no reason not to incorporate those into their "retro" offering. Hopefully they do.
Windham can go for the "retro look" without investing a lot of money in new parts.
halfmoonclip
03-30-19, 10:21
Windham can go for the "retro look" without investing a lot of money in new parts.
As long as they don't make too egregious mistakes to bug the purists, they have a real opportunity here, at a not unreasonable price. Hope they do the pencil barrel thing; that really affects the feel.
Moon
I have to say that I'm mildly surprised by the popularity of retro rifles these days. I'll be 59 in June, and I wonder if a majority of the buyers are in my age range and are nostalgic about these older models?
On a somewhat related note, I ordered one of these for my Brownell's Retro that I have on order. Not sure if OD Green or Black (or both?) would be period correct:
https://i.imgur.com/PwLD4kGl.jpg
Renegade04
03-30-19, 15:16
On a somewhat related note, I ordered one of these for my Brownell's Retro that I have on order. Not sure if OD Green or Black (or both?) would be period correct:
https://i.imgur.com/PwLD4kGl.jpg
I use these on my retros.
https://whatacountry.com/m14-nylon-sling.aspx
Here are my M16A1 clones with the M14 nylon OD sling.
https://i.imgur.com/OEb4JOS.jpg
MountainRaven
03-30-19, 18:06
On a somewhat related note, I ordered one of these for my Brownell's Retro that I have on order. Not sure if OD Green or Black (or both?) would be period correct:
https://i.imgur.com/PwLD4kGl.jpg
OD Green is correct for everything from 1944+ M1 Garands to early 1970s M16s. I don't believe that black M1 web slings became a thing until after the black "silent" sling came out in the late 60s, early 70s and I don't know if black M1 web slings were ever issued.
I have to say that I'm mildly surprised by the popularity of retro rifles these days. I'll be 59 in June, and I wonder if a majority of the buyers are in my age range and are nostalgic about these older models?
I'm 38 and have never been anywhere near military service. I think the appeal of Retro ARs for me is the Atompunk looks and overall sleek lines of the older guns, coupled with their light weight, and the fact that a pencil-barreled 20" AR really does handle and shoot well.
While I really like the old Prototype-thru-M16A1 guns, my actual favorite Retro ARs are probably the 700-series carbines (Model 723, 727, 733) though, so some 80's and 90's nostalgia probably is part of the equation for me I think.
halfmoonclip
03-30-19, 21:15
I have to say that I'm mildly surprised by the popularity of retro rifles these days. I'll be 59 in June, and I wonder if a majority of the buyers are in my age range and are nostalgic about these older models?
I think old vets, who haven't followed black rifles in general, may be a deal of the market. I know when I first put my M16A1 clone together, and held it in my hands, I realized I had been a much younger man the last time I held such thing. It does bring you up short. Wow.
Moon
Renegade04
03-30-19, 21:54
I have to say that I'm mildly surprised by the popularity of retro rifles these days. I'll be 59 in June, and I wonder if a majority of the buyers are in my age range and are nostalgic about these older models?
While there are a lot of guys in the 50-70 year old range getting into retro ARs, I have found a number of younger people (20s-early 40s) getting into them. I do believe that the main market is guys over 50 as they are returning to what they used in the military back in the late 1960s and 1970s. There are some that used older M16s up into the 1980s and early 1990s. The thing about the retro ARs is that they appeal to a number of different people for a number of different reasons. For me, I fell in love with the platform when I was issued my first M16A1 back in 1978.
The M16 got a lot of publicity in the old "S.W.A.T." TV series back in 1974-75. It's kind of hard for me to tell, but these don't appear to have the forward assist and seem to have three-prong flash suppressors:
https://i.imgur.com/zIADDMW.png
Renegade04
03-31-19, 07:29
The M16 got a lot of publicity in the old "S.W.A.T." TV series back in 1974-75. It's kind of hard for me to tell, but these don't appear to have the forward assist and seem to have three-prong flash suppressors:
https://i.imgur.com/zIADDMW.png
Hard to tell exactly which model they represent. If the lower is a slabside and it does not have a screw-type pivot pin, then it is a clone of the Model 602. If it has a partial-fence lower, it is a clone of the earlier Model 604 (M16). If it does have the screw-type pivot pin, it could be a very early 1960s SP1. Again, it is hard for me to tell from that picture.
halfmoonclip
04-01-19, 11:07
Great pic. Where they represented as select fire on the show?
Moon
Windham's retro has an A1 rear sight but an A2 front sight. Presumably there's no zeroing/accuracy issue with this?
Windham's retro has an A1 rear sight but an A2 front sight. Presumably there's no zeroing/accuracy issue with this?
They probably mean the front sight post is the squared-off A2 type vs the older tapered A1 type. It'll work fine with A1 rear sights.
Pacific5th
04-13-19, 14:28
OD Green is correct for everything from 1944+ M1 Garands to early 1970s M16s. I don't believe that black M1 web slings became a thing until after the black "silent" sling came out in the late 60s, early 70s and I don't know if black M1 web slings were ever issued.
We had OD green slings on our M16A2's when I was in. I went in in 01 and got out in 05. I cant remember if our A4's came with slings or not. We unboxed them and I put a 3 point on it anyways as that was all the rage.
I have to say that I'm mildly surprised by the popularity of retro rifles these days. I'll be 59 in June, and I wonder if a majority of the buyers are in my age range and are nostalgic about these older models?
I’m a relatively young Soldier and the first rifle I was issued was a M16a4. I was not around for the A1, so for me it is not simply nostalgia. For me, the appeal of the retro guns is that they handle so nicely. The M16a2/4 feels unwieldy by comparison with the longer stock and heavier barrel. I also prefer the A1 sights and triangle handguard. The first time I picked one up, I was like “Wow; this is what the M16 was meant to be. How did we stray so far from this?” It was as if the A1 was the more “improved” model, not the A2. Learning about the history is interesting, as well.
Renegade04
04-13-19, 16:01
I’m a relatively young Soldier and the first rifle I was issued was a M16a4. I was not around for the A1, so for me it is not simply nostalgia. For me, the appeal of the retro guns is that they handle so nicely. The M16a2/4 feels unwieldy by comparison with the longer stock and heavier barrel. I also prefer the A1 sights and triangle handguard. The first time I picked one up, I was like “Wow; this is what the M16 was meant to be. How did we stray so far from this?” It was as if the A1 was the more “improved” model, not the A2. Learning about the history is interesting, as well.
For me, my love affair with the M16 started when I went in to the Marine Corps back in 1978. I was issued my first M16A1. I still have a strong affinity for these and other pre-1980s M16s. I certainly have my share of clones of the newer models as well, but my passion lies in the older models. As I got further into the retro AR world, I have managed to increase my knowledge base exponentially over the years. That has become a real benefit as I am able to share of a lot of that information with guys just getting into this market so as to help them discern which model is which and what features they should have.
SNIP As I got further into the retro AR world, I have managed to increase my knowledge base exponentially over the years. That has become a real benefit as I am able to share of a lot of that information with guys just getting into this market so as to help them discern which model is which and what features they should have.
And we very much appreciate that.
Initially the Army was very reluctant to accept the M16A2, and the fact that the A2 was a Marine initiative may have contributed in some way.
I think many of us have seen the study commissioned by the Army in the mid-1980's detailing all the reasons why they didn't want the A2 - the Army maintained that the A1 was more accurate than the A2 out to 500 yards, the A1 (they claimed) was more reliable than the A2, they didn't agree with the 1:7 twist (maintaining that a 1:9 twist was better, resulted in a longer barrel life, etc.). They thought the three-round burst feature was a mistake, saying that their experience in Vietnam proved that full auto was quite useful in many circumstances.
The Army rather strongly disapproved of the new A2 rear sight, maintaining that it was more suitable for USMC use than Army. They also predicted that it would be easily damaged and prone to getting knocked off zero. They didn't care for the A2 extended buttstock either, saying that it made life difficult for smaller individuals and those wearing body armor. Of course, they considered the A2 profile barrel to be ill-advised, calling it "heavy in the wrong place".
But the Army adopted the A2 anyway, so what did the people that did the study know?
I’m a relatively young Soldier and the first rifle I was issued was a M16a4. I was not around for the A1, so for me it is not simply nostalgia. For me, the appeal of the retro guns is that they handle so nicely. The M16a2/4 feels unwieldy by comparison with the longer stock and heavier barrel. I also prefer the A1 sights and triangle handguard. The first time I picked one up, I was like “Wow; this is what the M16 was meant to be. How did we stray so far from this?” It was as if the A1 was the more “improved” model, not the A2. Learning about the history is interesting, as well.
I'm a lifelong civilian so I've never been issued any flavor of M16, but the first time I handled and shot an A1 type rifle (one that I built) it was kind of an "Ah ha!" moment.
I like the lightness and balance of the A1, as well as it's retro-futuristic "spacegun" aesthetic.
halfmoonclip
04-13-19, 19:45
Slater, I'd read most of that, perhaps in The Black Rifle. The A2 stock was my biggest gripe; it simply doesn't fit me. I suspect the Marine's concentration on marksmanship may have led to the A2 sight; we were never trained on it, and teaching it must have been a bear.
The M4 barrel has no magic for me as well; I've a pencil-barreled Colt carbine that has a much nicer feel in the hands.
Moon
Brownell's just put their M16A1 on sale, regular $1299, for $899.
I just pulled the trigger on one a few minutes ago.
https://www.brownells.com/firearms/rifles/semi-auto/brn-16a1-rifle-5-56mm-20in-black-prod113314.aspx
halfmoonclip
04-16-19, 19:18
I'd love to see the triangle handguard 16" on sale. :)
Good for you, 'Vibe.
Moon
I'd love to see the triangle handguard 16" on sale. :)
Good for you, 'Vibe.
Moon
I think at this point I have a "style."
My first AR, still my main man, is a Bushie M16A2 clone from 20 years ago. Box stock, 20" govt profile barrel. It gets some looks at the range from the younger modded - M4 crowd, who have never seen an A2 except in pictures.
I recently got a 6920 for a car gun. Box stock; I have no plans to change a thing.
My Smith 15-22? Parts kit is on order to make it into a 6920 clone (tacticool.com).
I guess I like vintage and stock guns.
If it works, don't mess with it.
This came in today. I'll say this for Windham - they make a damn pretty AR.
https://i.imgur.com/QsLXfgFl.jpg
This came in today. I'll say this for Windham - they make a damn pretty AR.
https://i.imgur.com/QsLXfgFl.jpg
This came in from Brownells today.
They do, too.
56925
Does your receiver have a slight violet hue in certain light?
Does your receiver have a slight violet hue in certain light?
I tested it under warm white LED residential lighting, and the bright Texas sun. Neither gave off a violet hue. It is a uniform gray finish no matter which light was employed.
halfmoonclip
04-29-19, 00:10
I'd love to see the triangle handguard 16" on sale. :)
Good for you, 'Vibe.
Moon
Sometimes wishes come true. Found the 16" carbine upper at a gunshow today for $300. Put it on my 16A1 lower; looks cool as hell!
Moon
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.