View Full Version : Highwaymen
Ned Christiansen
03-29-19, 23:20
Not bad.... not bad at all.
Remember, it's a movie, not actual recently-recovered film and archives of what really happened. It's a product to sell.
But.
Despite a terrible clip in the trailer showing a Thompson being fired, well, flash and noise but no motion and actuator not moving, super fake-oid, most of the gunplay was pretty good. Considering I have accepted long ago that they can't get eveything perfect. If I were a short order cook I could probably pick apart the diner scene. So I look for the overall.
Kevin Costner and Woody Harrelson? Really good stuff, great actors in my view, within the confines of the writing. Some aspects of B&C as heroes overplayed. But my very good friend Remmy Leven had a prominent part, happy about that! See if you can spot Remmy.
Tried to watch closing credits for who the armorer was. Friggin' Netflix insists on rushing to whatever's next and I could not read them.
Saw the promo, really hate Woody Harrelson, but I'll give it a go.
I think Public Enemies is as good is this genre is going to get. Also really don't care much about the Bonnie and Clyde story, he was a homo and she didn't look anything like Faye Dunaway in her prime. The 1967 film will probably remain the standard, even with it's inaccuracies.
Hard to watch a lot of modern day films with gunplay, CGI muzzle flashes drive me crazy.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-30-19, 03:12
I like movies about old guys taking out the trashy young punks...
Averageman
03-30-19, 05:45
I enjoyed it. They seemed to get the guns used correct anyway.
Moose-Knuckle
03-30-19, 06:00
Growing up in Texas, Capt. Frank Hamer was/is one of my personal heroes. I've seen in person the firearms he used to depart those oxygen thieves from this mortal coil. They even featured a Colt Monitor in the film, that was especially a nice touch for me.
So needless to say I waited for this one with great anticipation. I was not disappointed, in fact I relished it.
This was the first Hollywood feature film about Bonnie & Clyde that DID NOT glorify them . . . at all. In fact, you don't even see their faces till the end and they don't have but one or two lines of dialog throughout the film.
This film is a tribute to Texas Rangers Frank Hamer and Maney Gault.
I thought it was superbly cast, both Costner and Harrelson are two of my favorites and it was a treat to see them in this together. There were also two main cast members from Deadwood in this film.
Just finished a biography about Frank Hamer last week. This movie is very timely for me. Look forward to watching it. Life in Texas in the turn of the century? Wow! Exciting, rough, and incredible testimony to determined individuals.
Edited to add that if anyone wants to read a book about Frank Hamer and the early years of the Texas Rangers, try this one out...
I checked it out at the local library but here is an Amazon link to give an idea of the book.
https://www.amazon.com/Texas-Ranger-Frank-Killed-Bonnie/dp/1250131596/ref=asc_df_1250131596/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312021252609&hvpos=1o3&hvnetw=g&hvrand=18085346264855427302&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9016280&hvtargid=pla-587185105194&psc=1
Five_Point_Five_Six
03-30-19, 10:27
Saw the promo, really hate Woody Harrelson, but I'll give it a go.
I think Public Enemies is as good is this genre is going to get. Also really don't care much about the Bonnie and Clyde story, he was a homo and she didn't look anything like Faye Dunaway in her prime. The 1967 film will probably remain the standard, even with it's inaccuracies.
Hard to watch a lot of modern day films with gunplay, CGI muzzle flashes drive me crazy.
The Highwaymen is better than Public Enemies. This one isn't really about Bonnie and Clyde, it's about Frank Hamer and Maney Gault.
So needless to say I waited for this one with great anticipation. I was not disappointed, in fact I relished it.
This was the first Hollywood feature film about Bonnie & Clyde that DID NOT glorify them . . . at all. In fact, you don't even see their faces till the end and they don't have but one or two lines of dialog throughout the film.
This film is a tribute to Texas Rangers Frank Hamer and Maney Gault.
My thoughts exactly. I'm probably going to watch it again tonight.
I thought it was a album by Willie & Waylon,geeezzzz.
The Highwaymen is better than Public Enemies. This one isn't really about Bonnie and Clyde, it's about Frank Hamer and Maney Gault.
Watched it last night and a really good film, however I don't think it even comes close to Public Enemies. Was really happy to see that the focus was on Hammer and Gault and Bonnie and Clyde were shown as the vicious crapbags they actually were.
The gun handling / depiction was more than acceptable. The scene in the gun store was perfect.
Really was good. Nice to see the other side of the story for once. +1, the gun store scene was awesome.
Ned Christiansen
03-30-19, 18:31
I agree, Public Enemies is the current reigning standard.
Notice there was one very short clip where a gangster waiting in a darkened car looked just like Depp's Dillinger? Coincidence?
So, Remmy Leven, no one saw Remmy?
And who the hell were the armorers?
MountainRaven
03-30-19, 19:26
IMDB.org says that the film's armorer is one, "Joey Rocketshoes Dillon."
Apparently he was armorer for Deadwood, Westworld, Godless, The Ballad of Buster Scruggs (specifically the actual Buster Scruggs story), and Gangster Squad.
Ned Christiansen
03-30-19, 20:07
So here's a pic of Remmy Leven:
https://i.imgur.com/8rHJSvk.jpg
I agree, Public Enemies is the current reigning standard.
Notice there was one very short clip where a gangster waiting in a darkened car looked just like Depp's Dillinger? Coincidence?
So, Remmy Leven, no one saw Remmy?
And who the hell were the armorers?
"Road to Perdition" with Tom Hanks, Paul Newman, Daniel Craig, and Jude Law was pretty good too.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0257044/
RioGrandeGreen
03-31-19, 00:32
I saw it today, it was good. Gun store scene was awesome. Question for all you gun history aficionados? What was the cost of each of those guns back in the day. What would be the cost today just for shiza and giggles.
Moose-Knuckle
03-31-19, 02:48
I thought it was a album by Willie & Waylon,geeezzzz.
Album?
That is blasphemy sir. :p
The Highwaymen was an Outlaw Country super group with Willie, Waylon, Chris, and Johnny.
Watched it last night and a really good film, however I don't think it even comes close to Public Enemies. Was really happy to see that the focus was on Hammer and Gault and Bonnie and Clyde were shown as the vicious crapbags they actually were.
That's because Micheal Mann directed/co-wrote/co-produced Public Enemies. IMHO Netflix movies kind of have a "low budget" feel about them compared to studio features.
The gun handling / depiction was more than acceptable. The scene in the gun store was perfect.
That gun store scene gave me wood. I looked over at my better half and said; "I'd ****ing love to be able to walk into a small town hardware store and purchase a Colt Monitor and a Thompson like that".
So here's a pic of Remmy Leven:
https://i.imgur.com/8rHJSvk.jpg
That looks very Bonnie appropriate. I think I want one now.
Edited to ask if extended magazine tubes existed back then??
Moose-Knuckle
03-31-19, 06:12
That looks very Bonnie appropriate. I think I want one now.
Edited to ask if extended magazine tubes existed back then??
I've never seen any in photos, besides they chopped theirs down. IIRC they had two with the stocks sawed off as well as the barrels so an extended mag tube would have been counter productive. One of Clyde's he fixed a leather strap on the bottom of the cut off stock so it would hang under his arm beneath an overcoat and he could bring it up to action in an instant from concealment.
I just finished watching "The Highwaymen", and thought it was excellent. One of my grandfathers was a young Dallas County Sheriff's deputy during this time and used to talk about being on the lookout for Bonnie and Clyde. Parts of the movie with Faye Dunaway and Warren Beatty were filmed in my home town. Because they used the old town bank in the movie to shoot the bank robbery scene people from other towns just assumed that Bonnie and Clyde must have robbed the bank in real life, but they didn't because they had friends and family living here.
If you're an Amazon Prime member there's an excellent American Experience episode on Bonnie & Clyde.
https://www.amazon.com/American-Experience-Bonnie-Michael-Murphy/dp/B01ASE3JLY
I saw it today, it was good. Gun store scene was awesome. Question for all you gun history aficionados? What was the cost of each of those guns back in the day. What would be the cost today just for shiza and giggles.
According to this the price for a Thompson back in the day was $200 which would equal about $2600 today.
http://www.guncollectionsonline.com/tommygun.htm
I liked the gun store scene but thought "that is a heckva lot of 1935 $ sitting on the counter" while watching it.
I think it more likely Hamer got his full autos from Texas National Guard, Prison or LE sources, still made an interesting scene though. As far as the Colt Monitor only 125 were made in 1931 with 90 going to the FBI and most of the rest going to prisons and law enforcement so one being in a Lubbock gun store in 1935 is not likely.
Ned Christiansen
03-31-19, 09:55
I don't know of any from back then with extended tubes but I'll be a hundred bucks someone somewhere did it. It's not like steel tubing and wanting more BB's didn't exist in 1928, the year this one was made. The mag extension in the pic, I made it many years ago from the original mag tube cap.
Bonnie and Clyde didn't have any Hyman Lebman connection that I ever read about (gunsmith to many of the gangsters). I'll betcha anything he made an extended tube or two. I note that in other B&C photo's I've seen another of my favorite shotguns, a Stevens Model 520.
I love reworking these old JMB shotguns (Rem 11, Stevens 520, Winchester '97, even the Ithaca '37, which sprang from the Remington model 17). A recently-encountered Rem 11 is 112 years old and I told its owner, take care of it and it could still be in your family and working well in another 112, or 224, years. 520's and Rem 11's are pretty easy to come by for reasonable money. When somebody wants a shotgun for general purposes including home defense, or a .22 for their kid, I advise them don't buy anything new. Go to the used area and pick something 60 years old or more. There's a reason it's still around! Many modern shotguns aren't going to make it that long and many kids' .22's are just plain crappy.... and miles from being heirloom grade.
I saw it today, it was good. Gun store scene was awesome. Question for all you gun history aficionados? What was the cost of each of those guns back in the day. What would be the cost today just for shiza and giggles.
Did see on another site this same question came up..I know that 1921 Thompsons usually go for about $30k The last time a Colt monitor came up for auction, quoting from the other site where I saw this, it went for $115k..... yikes!!!
RioGrandeGreen
03-31-19, 14:42
Thanks Mack and ralph for the info, much appreciated. I am going to get a limited edition green tanker Thompson in the future.
56664
Thought the movie was great. Prior to the movie, I knew almost nothing about Hamer and Gault. It seems those two men were the epitome of the stoic, quiet professional who really did their best while keeping integrity as their guidon.
After watching it, it prompted me to do some cursory research on the two and the Texas Rangers in general. I was uniformed law enforcement on the border as well and though many things have changed in the world, some things about the border did not. I also looked up "Ma Ferguson" as I did not believe there would have been a female governor in Texas in the 1930s. Quick research mostly says she was a corrupt Democratic politician that was just a place holder for the real governor, her husband. It did say she was fiscally conservative and promoted some positive ideals that may have been uncommon then.
Just watched it, very enjoyable.
I loved the bathroom scene.
SeriousStudent
03-31-19, 15:32
I got to watch a Colt Monitor being fired into the caliche wall of a stock tank when I was a wee lad. The gentleman that carried it was a Texas Ranger, now passed. He donated it to the Texas Ranger Hall of Fame in Waco, where you can see it now.
I miss him, and I miss West Texas. :(
Just watched it, very enjoyable.
I loved the bathroom scene.
Punks meet Texas Ranger, that was sweet.
Woody Harrelson disgusts me, but was pretty good in this. Costner was great, and overall the movie was fantastic.
Very much worth watching.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-31-19, 23:39
Watched it. Wife liked it too. Great story and characters. Guns details are secondary.
I won’t lie. This film moved me to tears.
Schindlers List. Dry eye.
Beaches. I get it.
Longtime Companion. I understand
Only two other films have affected me so.
A Walk to Remember and the Wild Bunch
It captured the frustration and the anger people who live a certain way too long feel.
The gun shop scene alone set the tone.
“Fck the Police?”
Fck the Hoods. Every last one.
Sometimes people just need to be L shaped ambushed. Sometimes all you need is a .45 and the hate.
I also hope all copies of the original Bonnie and Clyde are burned and Warren Beatty and Faye Dunaway are jailed and dragged out of their beds kicking and screaming.
When I have more free time I’m gonna watch it again, listen to special music, and maybe start carrying my MR762. On this free time lots of whiskey may be involved with the special music and filterless cigarettes
I enjoyed it as well for all the reasons above. While I don't know the true sequence at the "stop" In the movie, he was golden in the letter of the law in regards to force. I understand he was criticized back then. But then, like my man above, they just needed it and certain latitudes are giving under the circumstances.
sundance435
04-01-19, 09:45
That looks very Bonnie appropriate. I think I want one now.
Edited to ask if extended magazine tubes existed back then??
Yes, supposedly LE only from the factory. Would've had to buy at a police supply store back then. That being said, just like with Dillinger's guns, there were a lot more competent gunsmiths then and it probably would've been a fairly easy add-on. Hamer mentions Clyde using two welded-up 20 round BAR mags. In the final shootout, you can see one of the lawmen rocking a 10 or 15 round mag in (I think) a Winchester 1907. Those were supposed to be LE only at the time, too. IIRC, Dillinger had some made for his either Rem Model 8 or Win '07 (don't remember which he had). In "Highwaymen", Hamer is accurately portrayed using a Rem Model 8 and I loved that you can even see the recoil to it as he's firing.
According to this the price for a Thompson back in the day was $200 which would equal about $2600 today.
http://www.guncollectionsonline.com/tommygun.htm
I liked the gun store scene but thought "that is a heckva lot of 1935 $ sitting on the counter" while watching it.
I think it more likely Hamer got his full autos from Texas National Guard, Prison or LE sources, still made an interesting scene though. As far as the Colt Monitor only 125 were made in 1931 with 90 going to the FBI and most of the rest going to prisons and law enforcement so one being in a Lubbock gun store in 1935 is not likely.
There was a Monitor in the final shootout, but as you said, it likely came from a government agency. I was actually disappointed that he didn't ask for his Remington Model 8 in that scene. That is one awesome rifle.
Overall, I liked the movie, but I wish there'd been a little more action. They were really loose with the facts, too. Gault wasn't some drunk on a farm when Hamer approached him - he was working for Texas DPS. Some other stuff happened out of sequence, too, but I know, it's a movie. They all really hated "Ma" Ferguson, though.
This movie brought a lot of SJW-type attention to Hamer. There are some interesting stories there about his life pre and post-Bonnie and Clyde. I'm not going to pass any judgment on the man - turn of the century Texas, up through the '20's was a wild place. "Due process" was relative to the times.
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-01-19, 10:02
Sometimes people just need to be L shaped ambushed. Sometimes all you need is a .45 and the hate.
When I have more free time I’m gonna watch it again, listen to special music, and maybe start carrying my MR762. On this free time lots of whiskey may be involved with the special music and filterless cigarettes
I really didn't know the story all that well, except for that they got put down hard on a country road- so it was nice to not know exactly what was going to happen. I did notice that nice L shaped ambush. No stupid stuff. I like how they called it the 'blind' - like they were going to hunt ducks. Any pics of how close that was to the road? They really put all their eggs in that basket.
My son was impressed with the real pictures (I assume) that ran in the credits. They mag dumped on that car that would make an NYPD cop giggle. That thing was Swiss cheese. 45ACP and 30-06 at that range, at that volume? THey would have been hamburger.
I did like the comment about the round count that was happening the fire-fights. 1000 rounds when most cops had a six shooter- ugh.
Best quote is when the kid says that main characters are supposed to over 50 kills between them- and Harrelson says that they did that in one day.
During the scene where the two motorcycle cops were killed in Grapevine, a second witness observed that two men opened fire on the officers and that Bonnie remained in the car. The man that the second witness implicated was Henry Methvin. Methvin's parents would later help Hamer to kill Bonnie & Clyde in exchange for leniency for their son. By blaming Bonnie the state was able to justify killing her and not look like they were letting a cop killer get away with murder.
Honestly the part that got me was Woody Harrelson saying “Manos Arribas” in a tired and dejected tone.
This was a buddy cop movie set in the 30s. It wasn’t glamorous and wasn’t all gay glorifying shootouts. It rightfully portrayed Bonnie and Clyde as murderers.
It was frontier justice in an era where men were growing ever more dependent on the lies of media.
Gunslingers amongst city cops
A breed who would be culled before they could be tamed hunting down two punks with guns.
It felt good to see them get cut down.
ETA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUbcSEHRUcw
Thought the movie was great. Prior to the movie, I knew almost nothing about Hamer and Gault. It seems those two men were the epitome of the stoic, quiet professional who really did their best while keeping integrity as their guidon.
After watching it, it prompted me to do some cursory research on the two and the Texas Rangers in general. I was uniformed law enforcement on the border as well and though many things have changed in the world, some things about the border did not. I also looked up "Ma Ferguson" as I did not believe there would have been a female governor in Texas in the 1930s. Quick research mostly says she was a corrupt Democratic politician that was just a place holder for the real governor, her husband. It did say she was fiscally conservative and promoted some positive ideals that may have been uncommon then.
If your interested in doing some more reading on the Rangers, especially the early days, check out the Texas Ranger Museum. The “EBooks” on the left side have some great history too! Most I have never read. The Border was a wild place in the early days. Rangers had a tough life!
https://www.texasranger.org/texas-ranger-museum/history/general-texas-ranger-history/
I got to watch a Colt Monitor being fired into the caliche wall of a stock tank when I was a wee lad. The gentleman that carried it was a Texas Ranger, now passed. He donated it to the Texas Ranger Hall of Fame in Waco, where you can see it now.
I miss him, and I miss West Texas. :(
Very nice!
It's possible that Hamer's Monitor was given to him by Colt:
https://www.smallarmsreview.com/display.article.cfm?idarticles=1929
"In the capture and shooting of Bonnie and Clyde, along with a multitude of weapons, BAR’s and one Monitor were used. The Barrow’s gang had two BAR’s, dozens of Colt 1911s, and a variety of other lethal weapons. Captain Frank Hamer of the Texas Rangers had the Monitor (serial number C-103168) that was allegedly presented to him by the Colt Company. The gang never had a chance to use their weapons because they were “cut down” before they could react."
According to another account, the lawmen only had one BAR that was borrowed from the TX National Guard and used by Ted Hinton. I believe that the Colt Monitor that is on display at the TX Ranger museum was given to Frank Hamer at a later date by Colt.
According to the book Texas Ranger: The Epic Life of Frank Hamer, the Man Who Killed Bonnie and Clyde, by John Boessenecker, Ted Hinton's BAR was the only automatic used by the lawmen. Frank Hamer and two of the other men had Remington Model 8 semiauto rifles, while two other men had Remington model 11 shotguns loaded with buckshot.
SeriousStudent
04-02-19, 19:18
According to another account, the lawmen only had one BAR that was borrowed from the TX National Guard and used by Ted Hinton. I believe that the Colt Monitor that is on display at the TX Ranger museum was given to Frank Hamer at a later date by Colt.
According to the book Texas Ranger: The Epic Life of Frank Hamer, the Man Who Killed Bonnie and Clyde, by John Boessenecker, Ted Hinton's BAR was the only automatic used by the lawmen. Frank Hamer and two of the other men had Remington Model 8 semiauto rifles, while two other men had Remington model 11 shotguns loaded with buckshot.
Hi Ed,
The Colt Monitor in the Ranger Museum in Waco was carried by Ranger Joaquin Jackson, stationed in Alpine. He carried it behind the seat of his pickup.
56695
The museum has an exhibit for Hamer, but the Monitor is not in that display.
56696
Hope that helps.
And Darryl's writing a book on the guns of Frank Hamer, we've had several conversations about it. I am eagerly looking forward to that tome. He confirmed the Remington Model 8 you mentioned, along with his usual revolver that Hamer named "Old Lucky".
When Joaquin Jackson passed, I was invited to attend the auction back in Alpine and buy some of the firearms he owned and carried. I gave serious thought to it.
donlapalma
04-02-19, 19:46
Anybody know if that manos aribbas story is true? My Google-fu whiffed.
Hi Ed,
The Colt Monitor in the Ranger Museum in Waco was carried by Ranger Joaquin Jackson, stationed in Alpine. He carried it behind the seat of his pickup.
56695
The museum has an exhibit for Hamer, but the Monitor is not in that display.
56696
Hope that helps.
And Darryl's writing a book on the guns of Frank Hamer, we've had several conversations about it. I am eagerly looking forward to that tome. He confirmed the Remington Model 8 you mentioned, along with his usual revolver that Hamer named "Old Lucky".
Thanks, there is so much misinformation out there I have trouble keeping track of it--especially when it comes to Frank Hamer. The Highwaymen had him using the right guns at the takedown of Bonnie and Clyde & Clyde--A Colt S/A .45 and a Remington Model 8. I was reading the article from Small Arms review from the previous page that said that Frank Hammer had a Colt Monitor.
There is lots of confusion. The first time I had ever heard of a Colt Monitor was in the excellent Stephen Hunter novel G-Man.
I am looking forward to Darryl's book. He certainly knows a lot about the subject.
RioGrandeGreen
04-03-19, 00:46
Serious,
I was in Alpine and got lucky that Ranger Joaquin Jackson was having a book signing for One Ranger and got a signed copy.
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-03-19, 01:27
Anybody know if that manos aribbas story is true? My Google-fu whiffed.
https://www.tbr.txstate.edu/archives/fall-2016/texas-ranger.html
A bit more about 'manos' and more about the whole movie:
https://screenrant.com/highwaymen-movie-netflix-true-story-bonnie-clyde/
Christ, now I really want a Colt Monitor and I know enough about them to know that will probably never happen. Back of my mind I always thought I'd get a pre sample FN BAR D but even that isn't very cheap.
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-03-19, 09:47
Christ, now I really want a Colt Monitor and I know enough about them to know that will probably never happen. Back of my mind I always thought I'd get a pre sample FN BAR D but even that isn't very cheap.
Ian had a video where he shot one. He thinks there are about 10 transferable. One just sold for about $75k.
sundance435
04-03-19, 10:13
According to another account, the lawmen only had one BAR that was borrowed from the TX National Guard and used by Ted Hinton. I believe that the Colt Monitor that is on display at the TX Ranger museum was given to Frank Hamer at a later date by Colt.
According to the book Texas Ranger: The Epic Life of Frank Hamer, the Man Who Killed Bonnie and Clyde, by John Boessenecker, Ted Hinton's BAR was the only automatic used by the lawmen. Frank Hamer and two of the other men had Remington Model 8 semiauto rifles, while two other men had Remington model 11 shotguns loaded with buckshot.
Hinton had seen that .45 (don't know if lead of FMJ) from a Thompson wouldn't reliably penetrate car bodies, based on his personal experience in the failed ambush of B&C at Sowers - that's why he used either a BAR or Monitor borrowed from the Texas National Guard (which would seem to support a BAR). I think the movie shows one member of the posse using a Thompson in the final shootout, which, from what I've read, seems unlikely. The only automatics that day with the good guys were a BAR and possibly a Monitor. Not sure who had what, other than Hamer with a Model 8 and Hinton with either a BAR or Monitor, but the rest were armed with Model 8s and probably a '94 30-30 and shotgun (Model 11?).
Christ, now I really want a Colt Monitor and I know enough about them to know that will probably never happen. Back of my mind I always thought I'd get a pre sample FN BAR D but even that isn't very cheap.
I want a Colt Monitor truck gun!!
Traffic jam? What traffic jam?!
Meth biker gang roadblock? Not any more!!
North Hollywood bank getting robbed—here, hold my coffee and let me sort this out in a jiffy.
donlapalma
04-03-19, 18:36
https://www.tbr.txstate.edu/archives/fall-2016/texas-ranger.html
A bit more about 'manos' and more about the whole movie:
https://screenrant.com/highwaymen-movie-netflix-true-story-bonnie-clyde/
Thank you very much.
HardToHandle
04-03-19, 20:44
a bit more context...https://ttu-ir.tdl.org/bitstream/handle/2346/9368/31295003193991.pdf?sequence=1
Without being too political, there was an actual war in Mexico in the 19-teens which spilled across the border and the Democratic President Wilson kept invading Mexico. Violence was common on both sides of the border and the Wild Bunch wasn’t just a fairytale.
Hamer and the Rangers were caught in period where light infantry was asked to become something akin to FBI agents. Tough transition.
Ian had a video where he shot one. He thinks there are about 10 transferable. One just sold for about $75k.
$75K is a bargain for a Colt Monitor. The last one that I saw on auction sold for $115K: https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/75/2586/fully-automatic-colt-r80-monitor-bar-machine-gun?fbclid=IwAR3M31gvp4RAw40lxliQ6Vb7O065vYmPKacTLxuYoisYjD1yBCz2q39_v9s
I'm sure with the popularity of the movie, the price of the few Colt Monitors in circulation will go up. The bidders will be some guys who are into guns and have a lot of money and were just made aware of the Colt Monitor.
What I would hate to happen is be the guy to spend over a hundred thousand on a Colt Monitor and get one that malfunctions like the one in this video clip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-u2twIMCNI&list=RDC-u2twIMCNI&start_radio=1&t=4
Moose-Knuckle
04-04-19, 04:21
Without being too political, there was an actual war in Mexico in the 19-teens which spilled across the border and the Democratic President Wilson kept invading Mexico. Violence was common on both sides of the border and the Wild Bunch wasn’t just a fairytale.
Hamer and the Rangers were caught in period where light infantry was asked to become something akin to FBI agents. Tough transition.
More akin to non-regular (guerrilla) cavalry, the Texas Rangers whole purpose since their founding during the The Texas Revolution. That role went away when Mexico started behaving and the wars with the southern plain nations fizzled out, mainly the Comanche and Kiowa.
$75K is a bargain for a Colt Monitor. The last one that I saw on auction sold for $115K: https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/75/2586/fully-automatic-colt-r80-monitor-bar-machine-gun?fbclid=IwAR3M31gvp4RAw40lxliQ6Vb7O065vYmPKacTLxuYoisYjD1yBCz2q39_v9s
I'm sure with the popularity of the movie, the price of the few Colt Monitors in circulation will go up. The bidders will be some guys who are into guns and have a lot of money and were just made aware of the Colt Monitor.
What I would hate to happen is be the guy to spend over a hundred thousand on a Colt Monitor and get one that malfunctions like the one in this video clip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-u2twIMCNI&list=RDC-u2twIMCNI&start_radio=1&t=4
The BAR is an old design and was not perfect, in Rock in a Hard Place it describes a good BAR man as one who could remove the bolt in the middle of a fire fight, replace needed parts and get back in the fight in a couple of minutes. I think Ohio Ordnance missed an opportunity not making some semi Monitor's.
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-04-19, 09:00
Why didn't the Model 8 make more of an impact? The operating system is a bit odd, but a detachable magazine, semi auto rifle with the right bullet in 25Rem would have been a viable proto-assault rifle, right?
Why didn't the Model 8 make more of an impact? The operating system is a bit odd, but a detachable magazine, semi auto rifle with the right bullet in 25Rem would have been a viable proto-assault rifle, right?
The outer tube that houses the barrel and spring can get dented sufficiently impinging on operation.
Beyond that, the trigger is good, sights are simple and effective, the safety lever is a little awkward to reach but very positive. Follow up shots are easy as the double recoil springs really soak up energy and the bore axis is low. I like mine in 30 Remington. I would like to try one in 35 Remington.
Supposedly Frank Hamer had a Model 8 in 30 Remington but for the hunt for B&C he bought a new one in 35 Remington at an Austin gun store along with some hi cap mags from Police Supply Company. The Model 8 along with the Winchester 1910 were were used quite a bit by law enforcement along the border and likely other places.
MountainRaven
04-04-19, 13:19
Why didn't the Model 8 make more of an impact? The operating system is a bit odd, but a detachable magazine, semi auto rifle with the right bullet in 25Rem would have been a viable proto-assault rifle, right?
IIRC, the Model 8 was used in small numbers during WWI, mostly by airmen (pilots and co-pilots/navigators/gunners). After the war, small numbers of them were issued out for field trials by infantry and cavalry - which found the rifles were too delicate and too unreliable in field conditions (dirt, dust, mud), and the Army and Ordnance Corps felt that the cartridges offered insufficient power for a military weapon - but the impact of a general issue semi-automatic rifle in wargames 'against' forces armed with M1903s also led to the beginning of what would eventually be adopted as John C. Garand's M1 Rifle.
SeriousStudent
04-04-19, 17:49
Thanks, there is so much misinformation out there I have trouble keeping track of it--especially when it comes to Frank Hamer. The Highwaymen had him using the right guns at the takedown of Bonnie and Clyde & Clyde--A Colt S/A .45 and a Remington Model 8. I was reading the article from Small Arms review from the previous page that said that Frank Hammer had a Colt Monitor.
There is lots of confusion. The first time I had ever heard of a Colt Monitor was in the excellent Stephen Hunter novel G-Man.
I am looking forward to Darryl's book. He certainly knows a lot about the subject.
I'll tell you a cool story about it the next time I see you.
I have his book somewhere around the house..."I'm Frank Hamer"
Been over two decades since I read it but recall some discussions on the arsenal. I had to smile watching the movie & the mentioning of the V8 Ford...that was the only car they would steal / travel in & do remember that part of the read with emphasis in multiple. The vehicle bought him more time on earth than the weapons.
Moose-Knuckle
04-05-19, 03:20
I enjoyed Costner killing up Bonnie and Clyde so much I had to re-watch The Untouchables where he took down Al Capone and company.
Did a little digging and Frank Hamer had a custom 20 round magazine made for his Remington Model 8.
Another rifle in the film that you only see briefly was carried in the ambush by Deputy Alcorn was the Winchester Model 1907 with the LE 10 round magazine.
If you guys like turn of the century Texas Ranger tales, there is a fictional series on AMC called the The Son about a retired Ranger who is struggling to keep his ranch as the Texas oil boom plays out. In the series Pierce Bronson plays the main character who carries an M1911 and wields a Winchester Model 1907 with 10 round magazines.
https://live.staticflickr.com/7863/47540778841_99ef608422_b.jpg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGjKbOTND-I
Just finished a biography about Frank Hamer last week. This movie is very timely for me. Look forward to watching it. Life in Texas in the turn of the century? Wow! Exciting, rough, and incredible testimony to determined individuals.
Edited to add that if anyone wants to read a book about Frank Hamer and the early years of the Texas Rangers, try this one out...
I checked it out at the local library but here is an Amazon link to give an idea of the book.
https://www.amazon.com/Texas-Ranger-Frank-Killed-Bonnie/dp/1250131596/ref=asc_df_1250131596/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312021252609&hvpos=1o3&hvnetw=g&hvrand=18085346264855427302&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9016280&hvtargid=pla-587185105194&psc=1
Thanks for book Info. I am reading it online now. Good read, fairly concise recount of the very numerous searches, arrests, gunfights and protective details Hamer and fellow Rangers were sent on. But still conveys a good sense of his character and the times.
Here's an interesting and short video on the gun used by Hamer to kill Bonnie and Clyde.
https://youtu.be/4nYGLzHaifw
platoonDaddy
04-08-19, 05:59
Here's an interesting and short video on the gun used by Hamer to kill Bonnie and Clyde.
Thanks for sharing the youtube video, for sure very interesting.
watched it last night good stuff :)
I figure there are always inconsistencies and some changes in movies for various reasons
Finally watched this tonight. Good flick. I enjoyed it and will watch it again.
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Saw a one hour program on National Geo station on TV (cable) last night. They reenact several events from the career of B&C. One event there were shootings and one member of the B&C gang was shooting a Beretta 92 !
Ned Christiansen
05-11-19, 10:39
Well, geez. You act like the gangsters didn't have time machines!
SeriousStudent
05-11-19, 18:55
Saw a one hour program on National Geo station on TV (cable) last night. They reenact several events from the career of B&C. One event there were shootings and one member of the B&C gang was shooting a Beretta 92 !
I saw that as well, I have Tivo'd it. Sigh.
There will be an article coming out on the Luckygunner website soon that will do a deep-dive into the guns used. I had lunch with the article's author today. I'll post a link in this thread when it goes live.
Ned Christiansen
05-16-19, 07:08
I anxiously await that, Luckygunner puts out some really good stuff.
Finally round up $8.99 to sign up for Netflix for a month to see this movie and Designated Survivor shows.
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