View Full Version : Ultimatum to Turkey
Doc Safari
04-03-19, 15:46
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-04-03/pence-issues-turkey-ultimatum-choose-between-remaining-nato-member-or-buying
Pence Issues Turkey Ultimatum: "Choose Between Remaining NATO Member Or Buying Russian S-400"
Two days after we reported that the US had halted delivery of equipment related to the stealthy F-35 fighter aircraft to Turkey as part of the ongoing rift over Erdogan's plans to move forward with taking delivery of the advanced Russian S-4000 anti-air defense system, on Wednesday the US escalated the war of words with its NATO ally when Vice President Mike Pence threatened Turkey’s future role in the NATO alliance, warning it against "reckless decisions," like following through with the purchase of the Russian-made air defense system
“Turkey must choose. Does it want to remain a critical partner in the most successful military alliance in history or does it want to risk the security of that partnership by making such reckless decisions that undermine our @NATO alliance?,” Pence tweeted on Wednesday, after making similar remarks at a NATO summit in Washington.
Despite repeated warnings from the US, Turkey has refused to drop its scheduled purchase the Russian weapons system, which is scheduled to be delivered in July. After the Pentagon halted deliveries of the fifth-generation F-35 fighter jet and related equipment to Turkey and halted training of Turkish pilots, Ankara remained defiant with Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu telling the NATO summit that the purchase was “a done deal.”
Cavusoglu and US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo are currently meeting head-to-head at the summit to discuss the F-35 dispute.
Complicating matters, Turkey is a core partner in the F-35 program, which is US’ most expensive military project to date, and is responsible for the procurement of several components of the ultra modern fighter jet. If both sides cannot reach a deal, the US will need to find new suppliers for parts of the fighter’s fuselage, landing gear, and cockpit displays.
My take: The smart money says stop counting on Turkey for ANYTHING friendly to the West. A lot of the articles I read imply that Erdogan wants to cuddle up to the Russians. My take is that Erdogan has long-range plans to make Turkey a world power and Islamist revolutionary state on its own terms. We should start by removing our nukes from Turkey (if we haven't already), kick Turkey out of NATO, and begin cultivating allies to oppose the new Ottoman Empire that Erdogan so earnestly seeks to revive.
Something else along those lines: NATO boss tells Congress that President Trump's hardball stance with NATO is working.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/nato-chief-in-speech-to-congress-declares-trumps-push-for-more-defense-spending-is-working
Turkey's leader has dreams of the ottoman empire reborn. He has taken steps to move it forward then he killed the economy and it is in sort of stand by.
He needs to be removed!
Turkey's leader has dreams of the ottoman empire reborn. He has taken steps to move it forward then he killed the economy and it is in sort of stand by.
He needs to be removed!
You can't build an empire without a robust economy..Turkey dosen't have that, and, if their economy takes a bigger dump, and it gets like Venezuela, Erdogan is liable to be found floating face down in the river.. The Turkish people will regret the day they put this asshole in power...
We should sell Turkey the F35–in fact, all they want to buy.
Just include a remote override and self-destruct. I hear Boeing has some discounted software recently available.
My take: The smart money says stop counting on Turkey for ANYTHING friendly to the West. A lot of the articles I read imply that Erdogan wants to cuddle up to the Russians. My take is that Erdogan has long-range plans to make Turkey a world power and Islamist revolutionary state on its own terms. We should start by removing our nukes from Turkey (if we haven't already), kick Turkey out of NATO, and begin cultivating allies to oppose the new Ottoman Empire that Erdogan so earnestly seeks to revive...................................................... AMEN.................................................................................................................................
Is Erdogan the NEW, NEW TURK?
Diamondback
04-03-19, 20:09
My take: The smart money says stop counting on Turkey for ANYTHING friendly to the West. A lot of the articles I read imply that Erdogan wants to cuddle up to the Russians. My take is that Erdogan has long-range plans to make Turkey a world power and Islamist revolutionary state on its own terms. We should start by removing our nukes from Turkey (if we haven't already), kick Turkey out of NATO, and begin cultivating allies to oppose the new Ottoman Empire that Erdogan so earnestly seeks to revive.
Maybe Cyprus. I hear RAF Akrotiri has plenty of room for new tenants...
Diamondback
04-03-19, 20:10
[deleted, doubletap]
HardToHandle
04-03-19, 20:26
You can't build an empire without a robust economy..Turkey dosen't have that, and, if their economy takes a bigger dump, and it gets like Venezuela, Erdogan is liable to be found floating face down in the river.. The Turkish people will regret the day they put this asshole in power...
The Europeans, esp. the Germans, kept scuttling Turkey joining the EU. That helped fuels the Erdogan rise.
Erdogan has played on-off again with the Russians and is consistently feuding with the Saudis. He also fueled some of his rise by vilifying the Israelis, who were long a pal to secular Turkey.
The Israelis have been measured, but allied themselves with Putin and with Greece at times to pressure Erdogan.
Erdogan has also tacitly supported attacks on US naval personnel and diplomatic officers.
Syria has been a gaping wound for Turkey, bringing confrontation with the US and Russia, massive humanitarian problems and now an emboldened Kurdish movement, which the military governments had effectively quashed.
Erdogan has been focused on building indigenous defense industrial base, out of balance with the overall economics, an Asian Tiger Model. The Turks can’t seem to get reliable advanced manufacturing such as turbines, but can build decent airframe components and are on their way to small aircraft carriers.
As for the regret, the unwashed masses in Turkey are now seeing the results of politization/Islamization of the technocracy and some of the blatant cronyism of state-owned enterprises. The flight of capital over the last few years is the private enterprise offshoring cash before something big happens.
Dr. Bullseye
04-03-19, 21:17
Give Turkey the finger and give the F-35s to the Kurds.
BoringGuy45
04-03-19, 22:54
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-04-03/pence-issues-turkey-ultimatum-choose-between-remaining-nato-member-or-buying
My take: The smart money says stop counting on Turkey for ANYTHING friendly to the West. A lot of the articles I read imply that Erdogan wants to cuddle up to the Russians. My take is that Erdogan has long-range plans to make Turkey a world power and Islamist revolutionary state on its own terms. We should start by removing our nukes from Turkey (if we haven't already), kick Turkey out of NATO, and begin cultivating allies to oppose the new Ottoman Empire that Erdogan so earnestly seeks to revive.
Erdogan is a potential Hitler, and Turkey has the potential to be the most dangerous enemy we could end up facing. They have one of the largest and most powerful militaries in the world, equipped with Western technology. They are in a prime geographical position, have a huge amount of natural resources, and a very large population. Unlike China or Russia, both of whom I believe will do what's in their own best interests to avoid what would likely be WWIII, I think that Erdogan has inspired an imperialistic ultranationalism that actually WOULD be willing to try and establish a new Turkish empire. Plus, the rest of NATO is back to thinking that Neville Chamberlain had it right when dealing with Hitler. Erdogan will have to invade Greece or Bulgaria before the West does anything about it.
Doc Safari
04-04-19, 09:19
Turkey doubles down:
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-04-04/turkey-hits-back-pence-over-f-35-ultimatum-either-stand-us-or-terrorists
Turkey has issued its own counter-ultimatum: you are either with us or with the terrorists.
In response to yesterday's threat by Vice President Mike Pence putting Turkey on notice to either scrap the S-400 deal with Russia or say goodbye to the Lockheed F-35, Turkish Vice President Fuat Oktay tweeted, “The United States must choose. Does it want to remain Turkey’s ally or risk our friendship by joining forces with terrorists to undermine its NATO ally’s defense against its enemies?”
While Turkey's VP didn't specify which "terrorists" the US would be taking sides with as part of his response, there's little doubt this was a reference to Syrian Kurdish militias which has also been the source of tensions given ongoing US support to the Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) just across Turkey's border with Syria. Over the past year Washington has repeatedly warned against Turkish forces foraying deeper into Syria to fight Syrian Kurdish militants.
Both the US and Turkish Vice Presidents publicly sparring this week will likely only harden Erdogan in his position. Turkey again reminded the world last Friday that, "We have signed a deal with Russia, and this deal is valid. Now we are discussing the delivery process," according to words from the foreign ministry on Friday after he came out of a meeting with his Russian counterpart FM Lavrov.
He added that "We have an agreement with Russia and we are bound by it." The first Russian S-400 delivery is expected in July.
Both last week President Erdogan and Turkish officials have remained unwavering in declaring "it's a done deal" in the face of US threats.
A month ago Erdogan even colorfully told a Turkish broadcaster during an interview that, “There can never be a turning back. This would not be ethical, it would be immoral. Nobody should ask us to lick up what we spat.”
My take: As stated above, Erdogan would like to revive the Ottoman Empire. Stunts like this test the waters to see what he can get away with. Expect more shenanigans.
What terrorist threat to Turkey necessitates a sovi... err... russian air defense system causing that to be their response.
Wasnt Turkeys last use of air defense to swatt down some errant russian aircraft a couple years back.
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polydeuces
04-04-19, 12:05
Its all to distract from the fact the Turkish economy is taking a dump and the people are no longer blindly following him on his delusional trips of grandeur.
See latest elections.
Though me thinks that turd wont go down quietly.
How Turkey has remained in NATO is beyond me. I mean, I know they were anti-Soviet and NATO really needed them for geopolitical reasons, but they've become increasingly hostile against the west/US and have openly threatened their NATO "allies". Erdogan is a douche who manipulates the media, destroyed their economy, and has an overly-inflated sense of self.
MY ULTIMATUM TO TURKEY:
Imma eat youbwith stuffijg and cramberry sause
MY ULTIMATUM TO TURKEY:
Imma eat youbwith stuffijg and cramberry sause
Drinking and posting again?
polydeuces
04-04-19, 20:28
”.............” is a douche who manipulates the media, destroyed their economy, and has an overly-inflated sense of self.
Fill in the blanks, no need to dig deep.....
And sadly this has become somewhat of a common state of affairs on a global scale.
MY ULTIMATUM TO TURKEY:
Imma eat youbwith stuffijg and cramberry sause
^When MR. Pibb meets Vodka meets Firefly^
WTF are we selling a gen 5 anything to Turkey??? I wouldn’t sell them a gen 5 Glock, much less a fighter.
BoringGuy45
04-05-19, 06:17
WTF are we selling a gen 5 anything to Turkey??? I wouldn’t sell them a gen 5 Glock, much less a fighter.
Because we don't learn. We gave tons of F-14 Tomcats to Iran in the 70s...then Shah kicked out and the Islamists had a ton of (then) state of the art fighters in their air force. We've been giving M1 Abrams tanks to Saudi Arabia for years. There's no doubt about it: We've set ourselves up to fight our own stuff sooner or later.
WTF are we selling a gen 5 anything to Turkey??? I wouldn’t sell them a gen 5 Glock, much less a fighter.
They'd just use a Canik.
Because we don't learn. We gave tons of F-14 Tomcats to Iran in the 70s...then Shah kicked out and the Islamists had a ton of (then) state of the art fighters in their air force. We've been giving M1 Abrams tanks to Saudi Arabia for years. There's no doubt about it: We've set ourselves up to fight our own stuff sooner or later.
We sell F-16's to just about everybody. In fact if this keeps up we could see allied MiG-29's dogfighting enemy F-16's.
ETA: Found this on Wikipedia:
On June 18, 2018, the U.S. Senate passed a bill blocking the transfer of F-35 fighter jets to Turkey. The prohibition was established due to concerns over Turkey's intent to procure the S-400 air defense system, which would allegedly put the secrets of the F-35 at risk.[200] In August 2018, U.S. President Donald Trump signed the bill, which blocked the transfer of F-35 fighter jets to Turkey.[201] Despite the suspension of deliveries, the F-35 Joint Program Office claimed on August 21, that it would execute the program according to existing plans.[202] Another bill was passed by the US Senate on August 23, which prohibited any spending related to the transfer of F-35s to Turkey until it was certified that Turkey would not purchase nor accept delivery of the Russian S-400 air defense system.[203] In early April 2019, it was reported that delivery of F-35 jets to Turkey was suspended due to Turkey's decision to continue procuring the S-400 air defense system
Because we don't learn. We gave tons of F-14 Tomcats to Iran in the 70s...then Shah kicked out and the Islamists had a ton of (then) state of the art fighters in their air force. We've been giving M1 Abrams tanks to Saudi Arabia for years. There's no doubt about it: We've set ourselves up to fight our own stuff sooner or later.
There is selling our stuff, and then there is selling our stuff. The US will sell the chassis and the frame and the engine but not the latest generation avionics. Those F-14s were lacking the avionics and Phoenix missiles. I understand the M1 is lacking a certain type of fire control system that we have on "our" version.
Does the US govt actually “sell” and make money from sales to foreign nations such as a Turkey? Or does it just permit commercial defense contractors to sell and hold all the profit? I suspect the latter, in which case our wonderful “American” corporations are anxious to make a buck selling advanced technology to any degenerate nation even if a questionable ally.
I am all for capitalism but not globalist MNCs masquerading as American but always willing to make a buck no matter the consequence to America or its citizens, or to the slaughter or enslavement of other countries’ citizens.
The only reason Turkey is a member of NATO is its proximity to then-Soviet lands and the opportunity to use it for a base for spying and surveillance. And as a staging base for flights into SEA. But with so many now-friendly Eastern Europe nations and other ME bases why do we even want Turkey in NATO at all. Is there any pretense Turkey would stand against Russia, is the there even a realistic Russian threat on Europe that justifies Turkey as an ally? Has not Turkey prohibited use of their airspace and based when they felt like posturing?
Diamondback
04-05-19, 17:25
Does the US govt actually “sell” and make money from sales to foreign nations such as a Turkey? Or does it just permit commercial defense contractors to sell and hold all the profit? I suspect the latter, in which case our wonderful “American” corporations are anxious to make a buck selling advanced technology to any degenerate nation even if a questionable ally.
I am all for capitalism but not globalist MNCs masquerading as American but always willing to make a buck no matter the consequence to America or its citizens, or to the slaughter or enslavement of other countries’ citizens.
The only reason Turkey is a member of NATO is its proximity to then-Soviet lands and the opportunity to use it for a base for spying and surveillance. And as a staging base for flights into SEA. But with so many now-friendly Eastern Europe nations and other ME bases why do we even want Turkey in NATO at all. Is there any pretense Turkey would stand against Russia, is the there even a realistic Russian threat on Europe that justifies Turkey as an ally? Has not Turkey prohibited use of their airspace and based when they felt like posturing?
My family were among the last Americans out when DeGaulle withdrew from NATO and expelled NATO forces as part of his "non-aligned" BS. In response, just at Chateauroux Air Depot, Chateauroux-Deols Airbase where my folks were, we...
Removed every single piece of US-furnished equipment that could b removed from all buildings
Dismantled and shipped all prefab structures like Quonset huts, jackhammering their concrete-pads into gravel
Rolled up the greens from the base golf course and shipped 'em out
Removed door locks and welded building doors shut
And othrwise generally made sure that nothing paid for with US dollars was left behind in usable condition or readily restorable to it
If Erdogan wants to be a Turkish DeGaulle, we should give Incirlik, Batman and all our other bases there the Full CHAD Treatment. As noted, RAF Akrotiri on Cyprus is in the neighborhood and has plenty of room where we could reopen for business...
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