RA9SXTC/T-Series Ammo

[AR-556]

I usually buy my bulk ammo from SGAMMO. While on there just recently I picked up a few boxes of some 9mm JHP.
Winchester Ranger 147 gr. T-Series RA9SXTC
They look exactly like the old Black Talon, less the black Lubalox coating. Does anyone here have any knowledge about this ammo? Also, what does the "C" represent (RA9SXT"C")?
In the pic below you can see they look exactly like the Black Talon.

[drtywk]

This is one of the two RA9T rounds that I carry and it is awesome. Does really well in ballistic gel and the expansion is just flat out nasty. I also run the 127 gr. +P+. I believe the "C" is for coated and yes, this is the next generation Black Talon. http://www.winchesterle.com/Products/handgun-ammunition/ranger/t-series/Pages/RA9T.aspx

[AR-556]

This is one of the two RA9T rounds that I carry and it is awesome. Does really well in ballistic gel and the expansion is just flat out nasty. I also run the 127 gr. +P+. I believe the "C" is for coated and yes, this is the next generation Black Talon. http://www.winchesterle.com/Products/handgun-ammunition/ranger/t-series/Pages/RA9T.aspx

I looked up the RA9T, and you're right. They do expand well, especially with those nasty talons. I better go buy some more of this ammo before they sell out!

[ViniVidivici]

RA9T is good stuff. It's on Doc GKRs list, and it's what we run. Whatever version of that it is, should be good to go.

[sigmundsauer]

So, I guess the real question is whether or not this RA9SXTC is truly the same thing as RA9T? It is a notably different product code. Possible that it’s just the civilianized (de-talonized) version like the PDX-1/Defender series?

Tim

[AR-556]

So, I guess the real question is whether or not this RA9SXTC is truly the same thing as RA9T? It is a notably different product code. Possible that it’s just the civilianized (de-talonized) version like the PDX-1/Defender series?

Tim

According to SGAMMO, Winchester had a contract to make it for a foreign government. So, it can't be civilian ammo.

[sigmundsauer]

According to SGAMMO, Winchester had a contract to make it for a foreign government. So, it can't be civilian ammo.

Winchester has fulfilled LE orders with the civilian (non-talon) version of the SXT before. Some agencies don't want the talon.

If this in fact the talon version then why isn't the product code simply RA9T? What's RA9SXTC? It could be. I just haven't read anything to 100% confirm that it is the talon version.

Tim

[AR-556]

Winchester has fulfilled LE orders with the civilian (non-talon) version of the SXT before. Some agencies don't want the talon.

If this in fact the talon version then why isn't the product code simply RA9T? What's RA9SXTC? It could be. I just haven't read anything to 100% confirm that it is the talon version.

Tim

I shot some of it into water jugs and some fleece in a water tub. The talons were out and they were VERY SHARP! I should have taken some pics of them. I will be shooting again this weekend. I will DEFINITELY take pics then!

[sigmundsauer]

I'd call that 100% confirmation. Thx!

Tim

[AR-556]

I'd call that 100% confirmation. Thx!

Tim

Tim, TRUST ME, these are the REAL DEAL!
I was shooting at my cousins house Saturday. I called him awhile ago to ask where the bullets were, but he's working out of state this week. But Tim, I'm telling you, those Talons are SHARP!
Are you buying some?

[sigmundsauer]

Perhaps I will, although I have plenty of good 147s for 9mm.

By chance did you chronograph your lot when you were testing it?

Tim

[AR-556]

No, I sure didn't. I don't have a chrono, nor can I get one.

[sigmundsauer]

I bought a case. Will chrono some when I have a chance. Will post results if any are interested.

Tim

[AR-556]

I bought a case. Will chrono some when I have a chance. Will post results if any are interested.

Tim

I'm interested. Are you going to do any ballistic testing? If so, can you take pics of the bullets?
Thanks.

[sigmundsauer]

Sorry, I'm not set up for jello testing. As it is, it will likely be a couple of weeks before I'll get to chrono the lot since the case didn't show up before my training session yesterday.

Tim

[sigmundsauer]

So, I received my case of RA9SXTC yesterday. This is NOT RA9T. It is possible, if not likely, that RA9SXTC uses the same 147 grain talon bullet of the T-series RA9T but the specs on the box differ from RA9T. RA9T is spec'd at 990 fps and RA9SXTC is listed as 970 fps. Win PDX1 is spec'd at 1000 fps with its non-talon, bonded variant of the bullet. RA9SXTC appears to be a reduced or medium velocity variant of RA9T. Interestingly, the 970 fps velocity spec is identical to Speer's G2 Gold Dot, which is also a reduced muzzle velocity over standard Gold Dot and engineered for the FBI. Curiously, the FBI has often sought reduced or medium velocity .40 cal loads, too.

I find the reduced velocity specification a bit curious. Plan to test fire and chrono later.

Tim

[AR-556]

So, I received my case of RA9SXTC yesterday. This is NOT RA9T. It is possible, if not likely, that RA9SXTC uses the same 147 grain talon bullet of the T-series RA9T but the specs on the box differ from RA9T. RA9T is spec'd at 990 fps and RA9SXTC is listed as 970 fps. Win PDX1 is spec'd at 1000 fps with its non-talon, bonded variant of the bullet. RA9SXTC appears to be a reduced or medium velocity variant of RA9T. Interestingly, the 970 fps velocity spec is identical to Speer's G2 Gold Dot, which is also a reduced muzzle velocity over standard Gold Dot and engineered for the FBI. Curiously, the FBI has often sought reduced or medium velocity .40 cal loads, too.

I find the reduced velocity specification a bit curious. Plan to test fire and chrono later.

Tim

Tim, according to SAM at SGammo, this ammo was made for the RCMP (Royal Canadian Mounted Police). The "C" in RA9SXTC stands for Canada/Canadian. He said IT IS the Black Talon bullet, it just isn't coated with the black Lubalox.
When I shot some of this ammo a couple of weeks ago the bullets looked EXACTLY like how a BT expands. And, those nasty, razor sharp Talons were exposed BIG TIME!

[sigmundsauer]

Interesting. I'm waiting on a reply back from Winchester regarding the RA9SXTC. I'm sure what Sam stated is accurate, though.

Tim

[AR-556]

I did a little bit of research and found this video (and others, as well) on the internet. This is the same exact bullet that we are discussing in this thread. The only (2) differences in this bullet in the video and the one in this thread are;
1) The box has been updated for the bullet we are discussing in this thread.
2) Because the RCMP ordered the discussed bullets from Winchester, their boxes are marked with a "C" representing CANADA.
Sure, this ballistic test shows the BT/SXT didn't do so well thru denim, but this is just one test of MANY out there. This bullet has done more than good in other ballistic tests, and LEO can testify as to how it has done an EXCELLENT job at stopping the bad guys!
When I shot several of my RA9SXTC bullets several weeks ago, they looked EXACTLY like the expanded bullets in this thread. And, like the man in the video states, "Those Talons ARE razor sharp and WILL cut you!" Just like the RA9SXTC bullets that I had recently shot.
One more thing; of all the SD JHP bullets in the world, why did the RCMP choose the Winchester Ranger RA9SXT bullet as their choice of bullet for their EDC SD bullet? Because, they knew the BLACK TALON had/has a reputation of stopping the bad guys! And, it was chosen in 2017. That's only a year and a half ago. This bullet has been out of production for many years, prior to the RCMP ordering it specifically.


https://youtu.be/hLrDu4gz0eo

[Arik]

of all the SD JHP bullets in the world, why did the RCMP choose the Winchester Ranger RA9SXT bullet as their choice of bullet for their EDC SD bullet? Because, they knew the BLACK TALON had/has a reputation of stopping the bad guys! And, it was chosen in 2017. That's only a year and a half ago. This bullet has been out of production for many years, prior to the RCMP ordering it specifically.

Why? Good question! You'd have to find out from their procurement Office. After all what does it do that GD or HST don't? Why does Easton PA PD issue XD? Why does my local department still issue 40sw? Why isn't this widely issued here? Why is it that as of 2018 the RCMP STILL issue the S&W 5946 and 3913 with magazine disconnects?

"Canada’s largest police force, the RCMP, will continue to issue the S&W 5946 and 3913 models. There is no indication that a new model is imminent and RCMP members have assured Blue Line that supplies of both pistols and spare parts will not be a problem. ERT and K9 officers will continue to carry modified versions of the 5946 that remove the magazine disconnect."

https://www.blueline.ca/news/features/duty-firearms-2018-new-trends-in-police-and-law-enforcement-guns-and-ammo-5051


I'm not saying it's a bad design but just because the RCMP issued it doesn't mean they are privileged to some inside info that no one else is!

[AR-556]

Arik, I can see where you're coming from. And, it makes sense. But, why the old style BT/SXT bullet? I agree, the GD and HST are top notch bullets. In fact, I EDC the HST. I also have a few firearms that have various other JHP (GD, Golden Saber, T-Series, and Underwood, to name a few). And, the fact that the RCMP are still using the 3rd GEN. S&W's speaks volumes. They know that these firearms are TANKS. And, maybe because they have nostalgic firearms, they might want nostalgic ammo to match??? Of course, I'm just "reaching" with my last reply there.
:confused:

[sigmundsauer]

Well, gents, I test fired the RA9SXTC over the weekend. I'm not terribly impressed. I did not shoot into gel blocks but did use some water-filled milk jugs just to assess expansion. I fired three rounds into the base (thickest part) of the milk jugs. Two rounds out of a SIG M17 and one round from a Rohrbaugh R9S. The first round out of the M17 possibly did not expand and over penetrated four jugs (bullet not recovered). The second round was recovered in the fourth jug with reasonably good expansion. The shot fired from the R9S expanded much less and penetrated only 3 jugs. Velocity was clearly a factor as the chronograph results show. I did not get impact velocities of the expanded rounds but must assume they were consistent with the chrono'd rounds. As expected the chrono confirmed that these are medium velocity loads. IMHO, the RA9SXTC is not as good as RA9T and really only has one useful role for me - in micropistols like my R9S where high pressure 9mm is not necessarily desired. It might also have value for recoil-sensitive persons who still want an OK defensive round. The R9S can't take high pressure 9mm and the reduced slide velocity of a lower pressure round likely increases reliability. It's good knowing that at least these rounds will partially expand at these low velocities and exhibited acceptable accuracy. I consider the RA9SXTC comparable to a good .38 Special +P, not a good 147 grain 9mm. There are much better 147s for full sized duty pistols. Check out the chrono data below for comparison (10 round strings).

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=1zn0ig0&s=9

Ranger RA9SXTC (147) SIG M17 (4.7") SIG P220 9mm (4.41") Rohrbaugh R9S (2.9") SIG MPX (3.5") SIG MPX (8")
AVG (FPS) 958.6 931.2 889.2 886.3 991.6

Magtech FD Bonded (147)
AVG (FPS) 1059 1026 Not Tested 978.9 1110

Magtech First Defense Bonded is a pretty warm load, comparable to Fed 147 +P HST in my chrono testing

[AR-556]

Dang Tim, I'm sorry to see this ammo wasn't up to par for you. When I shot them from my FS M&P 9, I shot 4 into water jugs (no denim) and 6 into a fleece jacket in a tub of water. 3 of the 4 in the water jugs expanded about the same as yours, or just a tad bit better. Mine were more uniform. One lost A LOT of lead.
In the fleece, only 3 fully expanded, 1 partially (2 or 3 Talons), and 2 didn't even open.
Last Thursday, I sent an email to Winchester to get as much info about this bullet as they will tell me. If I don't here back from them by this Wednesday, I'm going to call them.
I do know that the RCMP (Royal Canadian Mounted Police) ordered this ammo late 2017, early 2018 (my boxes are head stamped 2018). With all of the JHP out there, why did they want this particular JHP? As you know now, the "C" stands for CANADA/CANADIAN.
When I get more info, I will share it. I have a few 9mm's that I can carry this in one of them.
Overall, I like this bullet. Not as much as HST, or PDX1, but it's good enough.

[sigmundsauer]

I think the bullet is a sound enough design, and performed OK at the modest velocities. I would much prefer the RA9T variant. My real criticism is of the reduced velocity. 9mm is the minimum caliber I feel comfortable with for personal defense use. Velocity is critical to proper bullet performance, and I see no value in reducing it for social work.

My lot of PDX1 runs about 30-40 fps faster than the RA9SXTC.

Tim