View Full Version : Maritime Environment project
Hammered_Pair
04-06-19, 17:40
So being near the ocean and lots of bayou/swamp areas I have been pondering building an AR specifically resistant to this environment, as a new work gun, we do various shipboard security/anti-piracy contracting.
Looking at major components in QPQ (Melonite) finish, NP3, and possibly cerakote, trying to eliminate as much ferrous to ferrous metal contact as possible so the idea is in making the rifle fairly amphibious.
I'm not new to building AR's, just first time I have contemplated something more specialized.
Currently running a Mk18-esque pistol build with melonite barrel and bcg, either thinking upgrade or start from scratch.
I've got time for further research I am putting in for a stamp on a lower next month for either this or another project.
Thoughts?
Back in the mid 80's I was living in Austin Texas, one day I was heading out of town up to Belton and stopped at McBrides and wound up buying a Colt CAR15 for $365. On the way out of town I stopped at a couple of North Austin pawn shops, one had a Colt factory nickle SP1 made for the Italian market and chambered in .222 (military caliber not allowed) for about the same price. To this day this is one of the deals I regret passing on. Oh and the other pawn show had a paratrooper FNC for about the same price, having just bought the CAR I talked myself out of the other two even though I had the money in pocket, you know what they say about hinesight. Except for the caliber that nickle SP1 would have made a sweet boat gun.
Do you really care what it looks like or what it works like??
Do you really care what it looks like or what it works like??
With the options available today, there’s no reason you can’t have both.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Hammered_Pair
04-06-19, 20:44
The overall look isn't really that important, it's going to get beat up. Obviously I will try to put it together to not look like hammered dog crap, but the corrosion resistance is more important than aesthetics. Nothing some duracoat can't cover up.
A .222 would be cool, flat shooter.
For exposed metal you'll need some kind of coating, be it Duracoat or Cerakote. I'm not into camo patterns on my weapons so I have them done in the underlying color: steel parts are Colt Gray (an excellent Duracoat color that matches Parkerizing very well), and aluminum parts are done in black. If there is a scratch you won't see it unless you look real close as the underlying color is the same.
For the BCG either hard chrome (Daniel Defense makes a nice one) or perhaps a Sionics NP3 finished one.
Those things should just about make it weatherproof!
The best thing is to have components that can rust treated somehow. Whether it be NP3, DLC or Melonite (or a combination of them together).
Biggest components would be barrel, BCG, gas tube and gas block. Also certain items like roll pins and attachment hardware should be considered.
Not a build, but I’m likely going to be picking up one of Robar’s Polymar-15s. Likely the 16” TI version in black. Price is up there, but sounds like a lot of win there.
Not a build, but I’m likely going to be picking up one of Robar’s Polymar-15s. Likely the 16” TI version in black. Price is up there, but sounds like a lot of win there.
Don't know about the Robar rifles but they would be one to send his stuff to for coating/treating. They have been doing it a long time.
Hammer_Man
04-07-19, 09:26
Most components in an AR are anodized/coated aluminum anyway, so you just need to focus on the few critical parts that are not. For example, choose a handguard that uses a treated/coated barrel nut such as Geissele. Use a standard stainless grip screw, and a V7 aluminum castle nut. That leaves the barrel, and bcg. There are plenty of QPQ/nitride coated barrels out there, Faxon comes to mind here. BCGs can be had in QPQ/nitride as well, Toolcraft makes an excellent nitride bcg that can be found for a very reasonable price.
Most components in an AR are anodized/coated aluminum anyway, so you just need to focus on the few critical parts that are not. For example, choose a handguard that uses a treated/coated barrel nut such as Geissele. Use a standard stainless grip screw, and a V7 aluminum castle nut. That leaves the barrel, and bcg. There are plenty of QPQ/nitride coated barrels out there, Faxon comes to mind here. BCGs can be had in QPQ/nitride as well, Toolcraft makes an excellent nitride bcg that can be found for a very reasonable price.
What about the trigger group? Detents and springs? Euro put up a post a couple of weeks ago about what a single drop of water can do to a detent spring. I am not so sure trying to corrosion proof everything wouldn't be more trouble than an accelerated maintenance regime. Components don't go from like new to corroded beyond being serviceable overnight.
Hammered_Pair
04-07-19, 10:06
The best thing is to have components that can rust treated somehow. Whether it be NP3, DLC or Melonite (or a combination of them together).
Biggest components would be barrel, BCG, gas tube and gas block. Also certain items like roll pins and attachment hardware should be considered.
This is exactly what I am looking at Robar is high on list of options, it's the small parts-- detents, roll pins, screws that I am definitely looking to source in coated or otherwise resistant materials.
Hammer_Man
04-07-19, 10:22
What about the trigger group? Detents and springs? Euro put up a post a couple of weeks ago about what a single drop of water can do to a detent spring. I am not so sure trying to corrosion proof everything wouldn't be more trouble than an accelerated maintenance regime. Components don't go from like new to corroded beyond being serviceable overnight.
There are Nickel Boron trigger groups, ALG ACT comes to mind. As far as small parts are concerned, when you find a source is of readily available corrosion resistant parts, do me and the rest of the group a favor and tell us where you found it.
Bottom line I don't think building a completely maritime resistant AR is possible right now. The best you can do, is select the most corrosion resistant materials you can. The rest of the parts will require your attention from time to time, to make sure they are properly lubricated, and in good functioning condition.
This is exactly what I am looking at Robar is high on list of options, it's the small parts-- detents, roll pins, screws that I am definitely looking to source in coated or otherwise resistant materials.
If you do find a source for corrosion resistant small parts, please inform the rest of the forum, as this type of info would benefit all of us. In the meantime, a little bit of PMCS goes a long way toward keeping your weapon in tip top shape. I would suggest more frequent tear downs for inspection, and keeping an ample supply of spare parts on hand.
How do Navy SEALs deal with the problem?
How do Navy SEALs deal with the problem?
and the rest of the entire military... oil and good maintenance.
MorphCross
04-07-19, 11:34
Unless I am mistaken the safety/pivot/takedown detents are made of hardened stainless. If that stainless is in the 300 series it has the best corrosion resistance.
When it comes to the springs I would just make sure they have a fluid rust preventing lubricant that won't evaporate at the temperature highs it experiences.
turnburglar
04-07-19, 12:19
I might be the wrong person to weigh in on this. Like I grew up on a beach so I am aware how salty it can be, but I spent all my gun time in the most Arid of deserts.
Are you not massively over thinking this? A 6920 should have the same or similar corrosion resistance than what a majority of Navy and USMC units are using. Im assuming they just do a regular inspection and replace parts as neccesary? If you need I can ask a buddy thats a recondo, but I doubt his answer will be different.
My answer; buy parts that are not bare steel, which shouldnt be too terribly difficult. Nitride BCGs and barrels. As mentioned a ALG trigger and LPK would be probably your best bet. I also like the V7 Al castle nut that someone else mentioned. Wouldnt want a rusted castle nut to break and cause a total failure.
Off the top of my head, correct MILSPEC pins are made from 1215L with a cadmium chromate coating for corrosion reasons and to prevent them from seizing in the hole.
Unless I am mistaken the safety/pivot/takedown detents are made of hardened stainless. If that stainless is in the 300 series it has the best corrosion resistance.
When it comes to the springs I would just make sure they have a fluid rust preventing lubricant that won't evaporate at the temperature highs it experiences.
I believe DSArms.com sells NP3-coated small parts. Robar is always there, of course.
Hammered_Pair
04-08-19, 05:16
and the rest of the entire military... oil and good maintenance.
yes constant maintenance, part of what I am looking at is not replacing good maintenance habits but improving the ability of the weapon to withstand the harsh environment which aids in that and increases longevity in theory.
This is not an AR story although at the time I did have an SP1 sn just over 19K. My dad and I had a boat on the NJ Shore back in the early 70s to late 80s. We did a lot of night fishing and would often see boats moving around us with out their running lights on. We think they were drug boats. I went and had my H&R M1 Garand rebuilt with all new parts and sent it off to a company named Armoloy in TX. They refinished it in a hard industrial chrome. We kept that Garand on board with 3 bandoleers of ammunition. One bandoleer was all ball ammunition, one was mixed armor piercing with tracers and the other one was all armor piercing. Here are a few pictures of my H&R M1 Garand.
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/923/oPtPtH.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pnoPtPtHj)
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/924/037xms.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/po037xmsj)
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/924/aCay2Y.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/poaCay2Yj)
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/924/WuDn47.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/poWuDn47j)
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/924/waF805.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/powaF805j)
Adrenaline_6
04-08-19, 07:52
Robar has Roguard, Poly T-2 and NP3+. All lifetime warranties on corrosion and chipping, peeling.
https://robarguns.com/custom-firearm-finishes/warranty-on-finishes/
Hammered_Pair
04-08-19, 12:17
I might be the wrong person to weigh in on this. Like I grew up on a beach so I am aware how salty it can be, but I spent all my gun time in the most Arid of deserts.
Are you not massively over thinking this? A 6920 should have the same or similar corrosion resistance than what a majority of Navy and USMC units are using. Im assuming they just do a regular inspection and replace parts as neccesary? If you need I can ask a buddy thats a recondo, but I doubt his answer will be different.
My answer; buy parts that are not bare steel, which shouldnt be too terribly difficult. Nitride BCGs and barrels. As mentioned a ALG trigger and LPK would be probably your best bet. I also like the V7 Al castle nut that someone else mentioned. Wouldnt want a rusted castle nut to break and cause a total failure.
Probably overthinking, just looking at improving what's out there, the Corps and Navy have a long supply/support chain behind them. We service our own weaponsz so part of my thought process is putting together the combination of parts to cut down on corrosion even more than what Uncle Scrooge required, and partly just to do it. The aftermarket has all the improved coatings and materials available on AR parts, so it doesn't seem unrealistic to assemble a better mousetrap.
RVTMaverick
04-08-19, 14:29
YO That is 1 Beautiful H&R M1 Garand
This is not an AR story although at the time I did have an SP1 sn just over 19K. My dad and I had a boat on the NJ Shore back in the early 70s to late 80s. We did a lot of night fishing and would often see boats moving around us with out their running lights on. We think they were drug boats. I went and had my H&R M1 Garand rebuilt with all new parts and sent it off to a company named Armoloy in TX. They refinished it in a hard industrial chrome. We kept that Garand on board with 3 bandoleers of ammunition. One bandoleer was all ball ammunition, one was mixed armor piercing with tracers and the other one was all armor piercing. Here are a few pictures of my H&R M1 Garand.
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/923/oPtPtH.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pnoPtPtHj)
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/924/037xms.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/po037xmsj)
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/924/aCay2Y.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/poaCay2Yj)
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/924/WuDn47.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/poWuDn47j)
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/924/waF805.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/powaF805j)
RVTMaverick
04-08-19, 14:37
Hey Hammered Pair:<Funny:D call sign.;)
As far as some of the smaller parts, (IF it was I) I would wipe a small and I mean a VERY Small amount of Marine grade Grease on springs and every small screw, roll pin, and whatever else you are concerned about and I bet You that You'll NOT ever have a problem with rust or corrosion at all!
Years ago, I've used Marine grade Grease, where you swap Props on a Out board engine, and the Grease would never come off the splines, even swapping Props back and forth many times and the grease was always there!
A lot of people don't know about these types of grease...
I Hope this Helps...
So being near the ocean and lots of bayou/swamp areas I have been pondering building an AR specifically resistant to this environment, as a new work gun, we do various shipboard security/anti-piracy contracting.
Looking at major components in QPQ (Melonite) finish, NP3, and possibly cerakote, trying to eliminate as much ferrous to ferrous metal contact as possible so the idea is in making the rifle fairly amphibious.
I'm not new to building AR's, just first time I have contemplated something more specialized.
Currently running a Mk18-esque pistol build with melonite barrel and bcg, either thinking upgrade or start from scratch.
I've got time for further research I am putting in for a stamp on a lower next month for either this or another project.
Thoughts?
This is not an AR story although at the time I did have an SP1 sn just over 19K. My dad and I had a boat on the NJ Shore back in the early 70s to late 80s. We did a lot of night fishing and would often see boats moving around us with out their running lights on. We think they were drug boats. I went and had my H&R M1 Garand rebuilt with all new parts and sent it off to a company named Armoloy in TX. They refinished it in a hard industrial chrome. We kept that Garand on board with 3 bandoleers of ammunition. One bandoleer was all ball ammunition, one was mixed armor piercing with tracers and the other one was all armor piercing. Here are a few pictures of my H&R M1 Garand.
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/923/oPtPtH.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pnoPtPtHj)
I'm sorry, but you should be drawn and quartered for doing that to an M-1 Garand.
:suicide:
:D
I'm sorry, but you should be drawn and quartered for doing that to an M-1 Garand.
:suicide:
:D
It is a Post WWII Garand and it was in 1972. I wanted a weapon that could punch a hole through wood or fiberglass at long ranges. I also I needed a weapon that my father, a WWII Veteran with 46 months of combat time on his DD 214 could handle in the dark. The M1 Garand fit the bill for the requirements and mission.
I live near the ocean in Florida, half a block away from the beach in fact. If the wind has been blowing and it hasn't rained in a while I will hose off my car. I keep it waxed too. IMO one cannot just leave one's car or other valuables unprotected, materials alone is not enough protection. Buy quality to begin with and take care of it. The only rust issues I've ever had have been with blued steel magazines that got wet and left in the sun [man, those rusted fast!]. I keep the bore oiled and I protect the exterior with my left over Frog Lube which I no longer use for anything other than corrosion protection which it does rather well [WD makes a good anti-rust product too].
A couple of months ago I shot a carbine match in a constant rain/downpour. My anti corrosion practices worked quite well, no rust and I was sure to break down both weapons later and re-apply.
This thread reminds me, I remember seeing an Inconel 600 small parts kit a while back and wondered if it was a gimmick or if there was actually some validity to using Inconel in small parts.
https://www.apexgunparts.com/neverwear-ar15-spring-set-us-made-new.html
I'm curious to hear what others with knowledge on the subject think.
Damage Industries offers a nickel teflon small parts kit.
http://damageindustriesllc.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=2535
Diamondback
04-09-19, 20:50
Interesting question and an interesting project... this should be of particular interest to anyone in a wet/maritime climate, particularly here in the "Liquid Sunshine" of the Northwest.
turnburglar
04-10-19, 16:12
when I was in, I had an NCO that would hose down his rifle in CLP, let it sit for like a half hour, and then start working on getting it somewhat dry. Granted we where always in the arid desert, but this practice might help keep a gun from corroding no matter the componets?
For those that do live in a salty and wet places, which parts of the rifle do you see need the most attention?
Hammered_Pair
04-10-19, 16:51
when I was in, I had an NCO that would hose down his rifle in CLP, let it sit for like a half hour, and then start working on getting it somewhat dry. Granted we where always in the arid desert, but this practice might help keep a gun from corroding no matter the componets?
For those that do live in a salty and wet places, which parts of the rifle do you see need the most attention?
Front sight base, flash hider, screw heads mainly.
Front sight base, flash hider, screw heads mainly.
Get it coated, be it Cerakote or Duracoat.
I have to agree with the folks that think this is all just way too much for what the "problem" is.
This thread reminds me, I remember seeing an Inconel 600 small parts kit a while back and wondered if it was a gimmick or if there was actually some validity to using Inconel in small parts.
https://www.apexgunparts.com/neverwear-ar15-spring-set-us-made-new.html
I'm curious to hear what others with knowledge on the subject think.
I’ve been curious about corrosion resistant LPK’s, just for S&G. I’ve wondered a bit why the design calls for chrome silicon small springs instead of stainless, considering the action spring and mag spring is stainless. Unfortunately I know little about spring materials, and I’m not even 100% sure I’m correct about the small springs in the lower being CS.
Is Inconel 600 a good spring material? Is it really significantly more corrosion resistant, and is there a downside in useful life? There must be some reason its not in widespread use.
Front sight base, flash hider, screw heads mainly.
Anything that's just blued or not even coated at all. A drop of rain on blued steel on a warm humid day will rust in minutes.
I’ve been curious about corrosion resistant LPK’s, just for S&G. I’ve wondered a bit why the design calls for chrome silicon small springs instead of stainless, considering the action spring and mag spring is stainless. Unfortunately I know little about spring materials, and I’m not even 100% sure I’m correct about the small springs in the lower being CS.
Is Inconel 600 a good spring material? Is it really significantly more corrosion resistant, and is there a downside in useful life? There must be some reason its not in widespread use.
I’ve done a small amount of research since I posted this, and my suspicion is that Inconel 600 is, indeed, a good spring material. It combines corrosion resistance with good strength and lifespan. I need more reading on this.
Whether or not it matters is up for debate. I’ll probably buy some of the Inconel 600 springs and try them out.
I thought I would post these pictures as an example of a weapon that has been re-finished to stand up to sweat or exposure to salt.
I just to apart my Colt 25 auto that I have been carrying since I was 21 years old. I am now 67.5 years old. I had this Colt Armoloyded, (Industrial Hard Chromed), when I bought it back in 1972. It is the same finish on my M1 Garand that I posted in this Thread. It has been through many inside pants holsters that were ruined by sweat. I think it has stood up well and I don't think it would look this good if I didn't have it hard chromed back in 1972.
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/924/NTuCCm.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/poNTuCCmj)
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/924/Go0amv.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/poGo0amvj)
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/923/CxbiNO.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pnCxbiNOj)
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/924/LhuWId.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/poLhuWIdj)
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/923/9tjb5U.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pn9tjb5Uj)
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/923/CmcZrt.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pnCmcZrtj)
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/924/hz904o.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pohz904oj)
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/921/eVp0uw.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pleVp0uwj)
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/921/WTjdCo.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/plWTjdCoj)
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/923/4s4eIS.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pn4s4eISj)
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/924/IgvGDI.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/poIgvGDIj)
Probably overthinking, just looking at improving what's out there, the Corps and Navy have a long supply/support chain behind them. We service our own weaponsz so part of my thought process is putting together the combination of parts to cut down on corrosion even more than what Uncle Scrooge required, and partly just to do it. The aftermarket has all the improved coatings and materials available on AR parts, so it doesn't seem unrealistic to assemble a better mousetrap.
Cera/Dura coat it, lube your BCG, close your dust cover and be done. Also, you probably shoudn't leave your rifle laying on the beach for days on end.
Have you ever operated continuously in a maritime salt water type environment?
Cera/Dura coat it, lube your BCG, close your dust cover and be done. Also, you probably shoudn't leave your rifle laying on the beach for days on end.
I'm wrong, he's being serious.
Absolutely not, but neither has OP... not will he. This is merely a thought exercise.
Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
Op was/is a FMF Corpsman. FMF, as in USMC attached medic. He may have some experience with guns getting wet.
I'm wrong. He's being serious.
Exposure to the "elements" in a salt-water environment and submersion are a little different. If a weapon is completely submerged in salt water I would surmise a complete field strip (maybe more) and rinse might be in order, coated or not.
When I was stationed in Panama and we came back from the field (i.e. jungle) we would often take our M16A1's up to the latrine, where we had stationary sinks in the latrine that would run water hot enough to scald you. It steamed, and this was in the tropics! Now this was strictly verboten to do, but we would run the weapons under this scalding water. Since the latrine part of the barracks was basically open-air (screened-in center part of the barracks, the ends were air-conditioned where our rooms were) you could actually watch them dry in front of you. Then take back downstairs and finish cleaning with lube and whatnot. This was done especially after firing a crap-ton of blanks, which most know really really fouls shit up.
I wonder what SEAL teams do with their weapons regarding maintenance from underwater insertions, namely afterwards before they are put up.
Diamondback
04-18-19, 18:00
Fair enough. Strike my first sentence, my second stands.
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Note bold in OP.
So being near the ocean and lots of bayou/swamp areas I have been pondering building an AR specifically resistant to this environment, as a new work gun, we do various shipboard security/anti-piracy contracting.
Looking at major components in QPQ (Melonite) finish, NP3, and possibly cerakote, trying to eliminate as much ferrous to ferrous metal contact as possible so the idea is in making the rifle fairly amphibious.
Note bold in OP.I don't recall that being part of the original post, but if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Ignore my BS.
Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
Hammered_Pair
04-22-19, 20:36
Absolutely not, but neither has OP... not will he. This is merely a thought exercise.
Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
Op was/is a FMF Corpsman. FMF, as in USMC attached medic. He may have some experience with guns getting wet.
Fair enough. Strike my first sentence, my second stands.
Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
Yes our weapons do get wet, not like diving with them prolonged submersion but more like a lot of spray and exposure to elements at sea. The idea which I think the solution or combination of solutions are in this thread. The fact that no manufacturer has put all these elements together in one package is kind of surprising. I would have thought that NSWC Crane would have done some experimentation with the idea but haven't found anything to support or refute that.
Yes, while I have more experience with getting guns sandy and dirty there were quite a few training evolutions that ended up wet and nasty, the Marine Corps had a way of making everything that sounds cool suck, cold, wet and sandy..... a famous quote from some of the schools is "suffer in silence".....
Exposure to the "elements" in a salt-water environment and submersion are a little different. If a weapon is completely submerged in salt water I would surmise a complete field strip (maybe more) and rinse might be in order, coated or not.
When I was stationed in Panama and we came back from the field (i.e. jungle) we would often take our M16A1's up to the latrine, where we had stationary sinks in the latrine that would run water hot enough to scald you. It steamed, and this was in the tropics! Now this was strictly verboten to do, but we would run the weapons under this scalding water. Since the latrine part of the barracks was basically open-air (screened-in center part of the barracks, the ends were air-conditioned where our rooms were) you could actually watch them dry in front of you. Then take back downstairs and finish cleaning with lube and whatnot. This was done especially after firing a crap-ton of blanks, which most know really really fouls shit up.
I wonder what SEAL teams do with their weapons regarding maintenance from underwater insertions, namely afterwards before they are put up.
I am not a SEAL but I have known and worked with a few. In my last conversation we talked about AR optics [ he was using the Elcan and EOTech depending on the job]. But I can recall reading that they used to use Smith 686's back in the 80's, even so they had to be flushed with fresh water as soon as they were done or they would begin to corrode. That gives me an idea of fast sea water can corrode metal. I also work in a salt water maritime environment. Stainless, even high quality stainless, will corrode if not flushed by fresh water. Untreated aluminum gets eaten and anodized aluminum, if the anodizing is broken and not cleaned/flushed, the salt water will begin eating it away.
This thread reminds me, I remember seeing an Inconel 600 small parts kit a while back and wondered if it was a gimmick or if there was actually some validity to using Inconel in small parts.
https://www.apexgunparts.com/neverwear-ar15-spring-set-us-made-new.html
I'm curious to hear what others with knowledge on the subject think.
I bought two sets of these Neverwear inconel spring kits. They were not expensive. I also bought an LPK from a vendor well respected on this site, we’ll call them Brand X. They claim the springs come from a source that also supplies USG. I chose them as a control, a known quantity, since I have assembled several guns with their LPKs. I set aside the trigger and detents. And I bought a set of PSA lower springs, the cheapest ones they have. They came from in-store assemble-your-own-cheapwad-gun unlabeled parts bins, and cost like $3.
I put one set of inconel springs in a rifle, and ~1,000 rounds in, it still works. No surprises there.
I prepped the remaining springs by degreasing them with 91% rubbing alcohol. I dipped them in seawater and placed them on top of seawater-soaked gauze in three identical individual tupperwares at 13:48 yesterday. One each for springs from PSA, Brand X, and Neverwear. By 15:11, the gauze in the PSA and Brand X was staining orange. At 0812 this morning, I added more seawater to each container until the springs were sitting in about 1mm of water. By 1700, the PSA and Brand X springs had enough rust to make the wire visibly thicker. Inconel springs were still bright and showed no signs of corrosion. I will update when they eventually corrode, or if the unmolested set wears out.
TL;DR: Neverwear inconel springs appear to be much more corrosion resistant than the other two brands in this very limited experiment.
Update:
Those inconel springs have been sitting in saltwater for 11 days without a hint of corrosion that I can detect. Color me impressed. The other springs are more or less destroyed.
However, I’ve gotten a refresher lesson at keeping corrosion at bay on the rest of a rifle. I do most of my outdoor shooting in the rain (except for matches), to avoid Bubba and Cletus at my unsupervised public range. Its crowded with unsafe idiots in nice weather, but in an all-day downpour, I get it all to myself. And here in the Lowcountry, we’ve been having something resembling a monsoon for a week or two. So I’ve been shooting outdoors almost every day that I have off(24-48 on/24-48 off), and my rifle has been wet near continuously. Plus I cleaned it with a hose one day, and its been submerged a few times. Some thoughts:
All ferrous metal, regardless of treatment/coating needs either paint, or a light coat of oil.
Nickel Boron coated parts, such as in a trigger, are not impervious to rust with long term exposure to water, and oil wash-away.
Nitride, such as on a barrel and gas block, is also not invincible.
Stainless parts can get rust.
A Sprinco Blue will rust.
A gun full of sand and water (freshly submerged) is likely to experience stoppages unless horrendously overgassed.
Some parts that you may not have considered that will rust: roll/coil pins, ejection port cover detent, sling hardware, QD ball bearings, QD cups on URX4, MLOK fasteners, selector levers, crush washer (or maybe it was the barrel shoulder), front sight post and detent, mag catch.
Conclusion:
Even on a build where you choose parts for real or perceived corrosion resistance, you must stay on top of preventative maintenance when subjected to Neptunian abuse.
I bought two sets of these Neverwear inconel spring kits. They were not expensive. I also bought an LPK from a vendor well respected on this site, we’ll call them Brand X. They claim the springs come from a source that also supplies USG. I chose them as a control, a known quantity, since I have assembled several guns with their LPKs. I set aside the trigger and detents. And I bought a set of PSA lower springs, the cheapest ones they have. They came from in-store assemble-your-own-cheapwad-gun unlabeled parts bins, and cost like $3.
I put one set of inconel springs in a rifle, and ~1,000 rounds in, it still works. No surprises there.
I prepped the remaining springs by degreasing them with 91% rubbing alcohol. I dipped them in seawater and placed them on top of seawater-soaked gauze in three identical individual tupperwares at 13:48 yesterday. One each for springs from PSA, Brand X, and Neverwear. By 15:11, the gauze in the PSA and Brand X was staining orange. At 0812 this morning, I added more seawater to each container until the springs were sitting in about 1mm of water. By 1700, the PSA and Brand X springs had enough rust to make the wire visibly thicker. Inconel springs were still bright and showed no signs of corrosion. I will update when they eventually corrode, or if the unmolested set wears out.
TL;DR: Neverwear inconel springs appear to be much more corrosion resistant than the other two brands in this very limited experiment.
About a week ago, I roughed up the inconel springs with a grinding stone, in case they have some magic coating. Added more salt and a few drops of vinegar. Put them back in the saltwater. Nothing. Nada. Not a speck of orange.
Thanks for the update on these 1168. That is certainly impressive as far as corrosion resistance is concerned. I am going to order one of these spring sets and test them in one of my builds.
I wonder if the difference in material affects spring rates, and if so, to what extent. (Perhaps someone with that knowledge can chime in).
For the price, the spring set sounds like a winner for anyone in humid areas or those building a rifle from stripped receivers, so long as they hold up over time.
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Diamondback
07-08-19, 20:49
Too bad we can't get 'em to do a complete Inconel LPK...
Thanks for the info 1168. It's experimentation like this that makes this forum great.
Diamondback
07-08-19, 22:16
Just to spitball another idea, anybody do a corrosion test on V Seven's titanium parts? I know Ti can be picky--the Skunk Works used to actually cut sheetmetal when they were building the Blackbirds by drawing lines with ballpoint pens and watching the ink eat through the metal, and they even had to install a distilled-water facility at the factory because city water supply was doing weird things to it.
556BlackRifle
07-09-19, 03:49
Just to spitball another idea, anybody do a corrosion test on V Seven's titanium parts? I know Ti can be picky--the Skunk Works used to actually cut sheetmetal when they were building the Blackbirds by drawing lines with ballpoint pens and watching the ink eat through the metal, and they even had to install a distilled-water facility at the factory because city water supply was doing weird things to it.
Titanium is tough. You might find the info in the below document interesting.
https://www.nrc.gov/docs/ML9932/ML993210187.pdf
Thanks for the info 1168. It's experimentation like this that makes this forum great.
Y’all are welcome.
Thanks for the update on these 1168. That is certainly impressive as far as corrosion resistance is concerned. I am going to order one of these spring sets and test them in one of my builds.
I wonder if the difference in material affects spring rates, and if so, to what extent. (Perhaps someone with that knowledge can chime in).
For the price, the spring set sounds like a winner for anyone in humid areas or those building a rifle from stripped receivers, so long as they hold up over time.
Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk
On spring rates and materials, what I was able to learn on the internet is that in initial strength there’s not as much difference in material choice as we’ve been led to believe. And a correctly designed spring can reduce that difference further by using different thickness and number of coils and such. Obviously, this might not work out in some applications due to coil bind or some other stuff I haven’t thought of. And of course, some materials can maintain their strength over more cycles. In any case, LPK springs don’t appear to have the same types of stresses as an action spring or extractor spring, to my eyes. It looks like a fairly low demand task, with fewer cycles over the life of the weapon. “Hold this thing here, and make it go click”.
I found a comparison of materials here:
https://www.engineersedge.com/spring_general.htm
Here:
http://www.tribology-abc.com/calculators/properties_of_common_spring_materials.pdf
This one also discusses corrosion resistance with a little more depth, and mentions cadmium is better than zinc for saltwater resistant coatings:
https://www.theengineer.co.uk/spring-supplement-designers-guide-to-spring-material-selection/
And here’s this:
http://optimumspring.com/technical_resources/materials.aspx
And this:
https://www.acxesspring.com/properties-of-common-spring-materials-spring-wires.html
I don’t know how to interpret all of the numbers in the links above, but by comparing them, and reading the commentary, it appears that Inconel 600 is a good material for small springs and combines good strength and lifespan with corrosion resistance. The lower I have these installed in has fired about 2,750 rounds so far, without issue. I’m starting to think that the main reason these are not used more frequently is the small difference in cost.
Edit for clarity: I am not using the trigger springs that came in the Inconel spring kit. I am using the springs that came with the trigger.
Too bad we can't get 'em to do a complete Inconel LPK...
There are LPKs that use stainless for detents, takedown pins, and other parts. As far as I can tell most of them use CS springs. Some of them come from brands that seem a little Chinesey, or don’t have a strong rep. I think BCM sells a stainless LPK, though. I just ordered a couple SOLGW LPKs, and the takedown pins are stainless.
Since you guys are actually taking this seriously, I'll try not to be a snarky dickhead. Based on my experience with manufacturing equipment for the subsea O&G industry a coating of some type and regular maintenance + freshwater rinsing is probably part of the solution. I chatted up one of my engineer pals and he recommended the same. Of course you can substitute more resistant materials but then you run into the problem of possibly having to re-engineer components where the material was chosen for specific mechanical properties (springs, extractors). At the end of the day, you're mostly just buying time, but the best we came up with for someone that doesn't have and R&D budget is to have nearly everything coated with a corrosion resistant finish prior to assembly and regular cleaning and lubrication. We used alot of Xylan in conjuction with cathodic protection for wellheads and such that were going subsea for 10-20 years.
Since you guys are actually taking this seriously, I'll try not to be a snarky dickhead. Based on my experience with manufacturing equipment for the subsea O&G industry a coating of some type and regular maintenance + freshwater rinsing is probably part of the solution. I chatted up one of my engineer pals and he recommended the same. Of course you can substitute more resistant materials but then you run into the problem of possibly having to re-engineer components where the material was chosen for specific mechanical properties (springs, extractors). At the end of the day, you're mostly just buying time, but the best we came up with for someone that doesn't have and R&D budget is to have nearly everything coated with a corrosion resistant finish prior to assembly and regular cleaning and lubrication. We used alot of Xylan in conjuction with cathodic protection for wellheads and such that were going subsea for 10-20 years.
You’re not wrong.
However, even with freshwater rinsing, and choosing coated parts, I still run into some corrosion sometimes. Like you said, its about buying time. I’ve found that choosing parts with more resistant materials and coatings help. I Would not choose a part solely for corrosion resistance at the cost of second and third order effects, such as sharply reduced lifespan. But I am willing to pay extra for my “builds” to get stuff that is long lasting, reliable, AND corrosion resistant. Some parts are difficult to maintain, such as LPK springs.
I terminated the trying to get inconel springs to rust experiment. I was unable to make them corrode despite my best efforts, much to my surprise.
Corrosion prevention is one of my reasons for painting my rifles.
Diamondback
08-10-19, 03:18
So, going for a Corrosion Resistant "Maritime AR" from the ground up, by the numbers... I'm thinking start at a balls-out "F-You Neptune at any price," then rework the part list for "make the juice more worth the squeeze."
Lower Receiver Group
Lower Receiver
FCG Pins - V Seven Titanium
Trigger
Hammer
Disconnector
Trigger Spring - Neverwear Inconel Kit
Hammer Spring - Neverwear Inconel Kit
Disconnector Spring - Neverwear Inconel Kit
Selector - V Seven Titanium
Selector Detent
Selector Spring - Neverwear Inconel Kit
Ambi Selector Right Paddle (if applicable)
Ambi Selector Screw (if applicable)
Grip - non-issue, plastic
Grip Screw - V Seven Titanium
Grip Screw Lockwasher
Mag Catch - V Seven Titanium
Mag Catch Spring - Neverwear Inconel Kit
Mag Catch Button - V Seven Titanium
Bolt Catch Spring - Neverwear Inconel Kit
Bolt Catch Plunger
Bolt Catch
Bolt Catch Rollpin
2x TD Pin Springs - Neverwear Inconel Kit
2x TD Pin Detents
Pivot Pin - V Seven Titanium
Takedown Pin - V Seven Titanium
Triggerguard (if applicable)
TG Rollpin (if applicable)
Buffer Tube - V Seven SBT (stainless w/black nitride)
Buffer Spring - V Seven Teflon-coated
Buffer - V Seven Enhanced (teflon coated)
Buffer Retainer - V Seven Titanium
Retainer Spring - Neverwear Inconel Kit
Endplate - V Seven Titanium
Castle Nut - V Seven Titanium
Stock Assembly - lockpin, spring and nut; sling swivel and screw
Upper Receiver Group
Upper Receiver
Forward Assist Assembly (if applicable)
FA Spring " - Neverwear Inconel Kit
FA Spring Rollpin "
Ejection Port Cover - V Seven Titanium; FAB Defense plastic
EPC Spring - Neverwear Inconel Kit
EPC Pin - V Seven Titanium
EPC Retainer Ring (comes with V Seven pin)
Barrel Extension
Barrel Index Pin
Barrel
Barrel Nut
Delta Ring (if applicable)
Weld Spring "
Snap Ring "
Gas Block/FSB
2x Gas Block Taper Pins (if applicable)
Gas Tube - V Seven Extreme (Inconel)
GT Rollpin
Handguard (usually plastic unless free-float/rail)
Handguard Cap (if applicable)
Front Sight Post (if applicable)
FSP Detent "
FSP Detent Spring
Crush/Timing Washer(s)
Flash Hider/Brake/Muzzle Device - V Seven Helios? (Titanium w/optional black DLC)
Bolt Carrier/Charging Handle Group
Firing Pin - V Seven Titanium
Bolt
Ejector
Ejector Spring - Neverwear Inconel Kit
Ejector Spring Rollpin
Extractor
Extractor Spring - Neverwear Inconel Kit
Extractor Spring Insert - plastic, no corrosion
Extractor Spring O-ring (if applicable) - rubber, no corrosion
3x Gas Rings
Bolt Carrier - V Seven Titanium
Cam Pin
FP Retaining Pin
Gas Key
2x Gas Key Screws
Charging Handle Body
CH Latch
CH Latch Spring - Neverwear Inconel Kit
CH Latch Rollpin
Magazines and Accessories
Mag Body - Magpul PMAG
Mag Follower - usually plastic
Mag Floorplate - Magpul PMAG
Mag Spring
Obviously a work in progress... and I haven't even started trying to work the budget math. LOL
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