HK Offers 416 .22 Pistol but No 5.56 Pistol

[thegreyman]

HK makes quality firearms, but the MR556 A 1 is a heavy 5.56 firearm; I am holding one right now. When it comes to a semi-auto 16 inch rifle, I much prefer my
DD M4 V7. However, if the barrel length is reduced to 10.4 inches (like the HK 416 C), the weight is dramatically reduced and the result is stunning.
It becomes a great suppressor host; it handles so much better; and it is one of the hottest numbers on the beach. One might trade his MK 18 and ante up the money - maybe...
It is amazing to see the Germans offer a HK 416 .22 pistol while the only available HK 5.56 available to civilians is a 16.5 inch, 8.6 lb. MR556 A 1. Ponder that.
The felllow could be correct; they may hate us.

[SteyrAUG]

Is it actually HK or Umarex?

[Quiet]

Umarex makes them for H&K.
.22LR, rifle and pistol versions of the HK416 and MP5.
Umarex was also suppose to make a .22LR pistol version of the MP7, but they never got around to releasing it.

[thegreyman]

It is my understanding that German civilians have much better HK choices - correct?

[SteyrAUG]

It is my understanding that German civilians have much better HK choices - correct?

Not really. And the Umarex is not a HK 416 chambered in .22, it's an airsoft 416 with a .22 barrel and HK logo and promotion. Same with all the others. You really aren't missing anything, check out the Umarex Colt M4 in .22 LR and you will see what I mean.

[thegreyman]

[QUOTE=SteyrAUG;2725225]Not really. And the Umarex is not a HK 416 chambered in .22, it's an airsoft 416 with a .22 barrel and HK logo and promotion. Same with all the others. You really aren't missing anything, check out the Umarex Colt M4 in .22 LR and you will see what I mean.[/QUOT

SteyrAug, I don't have any interest in Umarex .22's, airsoft video arms, etc. I agree with you; some of my friends own Colt Umarex .22's, and they run well. I am simply surprised that the only alternative to a 16.5 inch HK MR556 A 1 is a .22 HK 416 clone.

The MR556 is a quality 5.56 rifle that has an accurate, heavy 16.5 inch barrel, a trigger that is not appropriate for a quality accurate hammer forged barrel, and a firing pin safety designed to address slamfires on a selective fire weapon. That is about it. For the money, it lacks all the great features available on a Radian Lower Receiver. On the other hand, I think the HK 416 C used by police and military special operation teams possesses a desirable combination of reliability, accuracy, weight, and handiness.

It is my understanding that HK offers centerfire semi-auto versions of the HK 416 (that would be more appealing) to German civilians; this is not the case?

[Bret]

For the money that a MR556 A1 costs, why not just build your ideal rifle yourself? I installed an Adams Arms piston system on a midlength rifle that I built. It's light and runs like a champ, even on full auto. You could use the best parts to setup your rifle perfectly for suppressor use and would still have money left over.

[MountainRaven]

SteyrAug, I don't have any interest in Umarex .22's, airsoft video arms, etc. I agree with you; some of my friends own Colt Umarex .22's, and they run well. I am simply surprised that the only alternative to a 16.5 inch HK MR556 A 1 is a .22 HK 416 clone.

The MR556 is a quality 5.56 rifle that has an accurate, heavy 16.5 inch barrel, a trigger that is not appropriate for a quality accurate hammer forged barrel, and a firing pin safety designed to address slamfires on a selective fire weapon. That is about it. For the money, it lacks all the great features available on a Radian Lower Receiver. On the other hand, I think the HK 416 C used by police and military special operation teams possesses a desirable combination of reliability, accuracy, weight, and handiness.

It is my understanding that HK offers centerfire semi-auto versions of the HK 416 (that would be more appealing) to German civilians; this is not the case?

The MR223 is virtually identical to the MR556. The only benefit is, I think, the MR223 has been upgraded over time to mirror upgrades to the HK416, while the MR556 has not. But will otherwise be the same basic barrel, &c. The MR223's uppers - unlike the HK416 and MR556 - are not interchangeable with standard AR-15 uppers and same for the MR223's lowers. H&K changed that about the MR556 in response to negative reactions from the US market before the rifle was introduced to the US.

You can buy gray market HK416 uppers, if you're patient and have the coin, and Brownell's has HK416-pattern receivers machined by PWS from H&K forgings (that Brownell's found in Germany and then imported). Brownell's also has sufficient small parts to assemble those receivers into complete rifles, although it will cost you about the same as just buying an MR556.

[HKGuns]

For the money that a MR556 A1 costs, why not just build your ideal rifle yourself? I installed an Adams Arms piston system on a midlength rifle that I built. It's light and runs like a champ, even on full auto. You could use the best parts to setup your rifle perfectly for suppressor use and would still have money left over.

Because Adam Arms is in no way equivalent to the HK MR series rifles.

[Bret]

Because Adam Arms is in no way equivalent to the HK MR series rifles.
I wasn't suggesting the entire rifle which is why I recommended the AA piston system along with all other custom parts of your choosing. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the AA system is lighter. Most other piston systems make the rifles front heavy. I know mine runs like a champ. It has a suppressor setting. Have you done a side by side comparison of the two systems or know of someone who has?

[VIP3R 237]

I would steer clear of anything Adams Arms right now as they are up for auction...

http://www.moeckerauctions.com/auctions/adams-arms-llc?fbclid=IwAR2T6KHgV-LoWxM3pzIfXcxPaTvMNrtiUt3Z7QsgwBsWcutgPgNcw97G2EQ

[Bret]

Oh no. A sale of collateral definitely isn't a good thing. Perhaps there's too much competition in the AR15 category. The company appears to still be running. Perhaps they're hoping that someone will buy it and keep the doors open. It will be interesting to see.

[SteyrAUG]

[QUOTE=SteyrAUG;2725225]Not really. And the Umarex is not a HK 416 chambered in .22, it's an airsoft 416 with a .22 barrel and HK logo and promotion. Same with all the others. You really aren't missing anything, check out the Umarex Colt M4 in .22 LR and you will see what I mean.[/QUOT

SteyrAug, I don't have any interest in Umarex .22's, airsoft video arms, etc. I agree with you; some of my friends own Colt Umarex .22's, and they run well. I am simply surprised that the only alternative to a 16.5 inch HK MR556 A 1 is a .22 HK 416 clone.

The MR556 is a quality 5.56 rifle that has an accurate, heavy 16.5 inch barrel, a trigger that is not appropriate for a quality accurate hammer forged barrel, and a firing pin safety designed to address slamfires on a selective fire weapon. That is about it. For the money, it lacks all the great features available on a Radian Lower Receiver. On the other hand, I think the HK 416 C used by police and military special operation teams possesses a desirable combination of reliability, accuracy, weight, and handiness.

It is my understanding that HK offers centerfire semi-auto versions of the HK 416 (that would be more appealing) to German civilians; this is not the case?

Unless things have really changed, no they can't. If you saw the semi auto G3s that Germans were allowed to buy you'd laugh at them just like we laughed at the SL8.

The other problem is HK is a "state owned" arms factory that has export restrictions, that along with our import restrictions found in the 1968 Gun Control Act (specifically the sporter clause) and the 1989 Bush Import Ban (pretty much all of it) means we get some really stupid firearms when it comes to rifles.

HK can get away with selling a semi auto MP5k as a pistol (even though the original SP89 is still banned from import) but HK has a lot of problems with rifles going out the door that aren't for "sporting applications" which is why the SR556 is stupid and annoying to those of us who simply wanted a 1:1 semi auto version of the 416. But we also wanted a 1:1 semi auto G36, UMP and a few others while we are at it.

In the greatest irony of all, we might have purchased the MSG90, which would have been importable as a precision rifle, except those shitheads at HK designed it with a swing down trigger group thus qualifying the receiver as a machine gun. Might have also bought more PSG1s if they weren't considered "too deadly for civie use" and sold for less than $5,000 when they were available for retail purchase.

Even MKE was smart enough to send us a few 43P handguns so we could SBR a factory contract 33k.

[Diamondback]

The other problem is HK is a "state owned" arms factory that has export restrictions, that along with our import restrictions found in the 1968 Gun Control Act (specifically the sporter clause) and the 1989 Bush Import Ban (pretty much all of it) means we get some really stupid firearms when it comes to rifles.

You wanna talk stupid? Between those I can't import an AR endplate--a simple steel stamping--from Canada. How retarded is that? (I need to remember to look up the smith who built Larry Vickers's C8SFW and see if he can help me out with the specialty parts...) Anyway, I've toyed with the idea of trying to clone a Bundeswehr-issue HK416 myself, but right now it looks like Brownells parts and roll-your-own is about the only viable option.

[MountainRaven]

The other problem is HK is a "state owned" arms factory that has export restrictions, that along with our import restrictions found in the 1968 Gun Control Act (specifically the sporter clause) and the 1989 Bush Import Ban (pretty much all of it) means we get some really stupid firearms when it comes to rifles.

HK can get away with selling a semi auto MP5k as a pistol (even though the original SP89 is still banned from import) but HK has a lot of problems with rifles going out the door that aren't for "sporting applications" which is why the SR556 is stupid and annoying to those of us who simply wanted a 1:1 semi auto version of the 416. But we also wanted a 1:1 semi auto G36, UMP and a few others while we are at it.

In the greatest irony of all, we might have purchased the MSG90, which would have been importable as a precision rifle, except those shitheads at HK designed it with a swing down trigger group thus qualifying the receiver as a machine gun. Might have also bought more PSG1s if they weren't considered "too deadly for civie use" and sold for less than $5,000 when they were available for retail purchase.

Even MKE was smart enough to send us a few 43P handguns so we could SBR a factory contract 33k.

Worth remembering that H&K also wanted to import SP5 pistols - full size MP5 pistols - and while the ATF would allow it, Germany's government won't. IIRC, there's a maximum barrel length in Germany for pistols and the SP5 doesn't fit in that box.

[Diamondback]

Worth remembering that H&K also wanted to import SP5 pistols - full size MP5 pistols - and while the ATF would allow it, Germany's government won't. IIRC, there's a maximum barrel length in Germany for pistols and the SP5 doesn't fit in that box.

Seems to me that if HK were serious about it, they could open up US facilities to make the barrel here, ship a no-barrel SP5 parts set and marry to an HK USA-made barrel... just for one example. But they won't, "Becauss You Suck Und Ve Hate You..."
http://monsterhunternation.com/2007/10/09/hk-because-you-suck-and-we-hate-you/

[jpmuscle]

For anyone interested Marvin Pitts is working on doing a run of 416 spec chrome lined barrels.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MountainRaven]

Seems to me that if HK were serious about it, they could open up US facilities to make the barrel here, ship a no-barrel SP5 parts set and marry to an HK USA-made barrel... just for one example. But they won't, "Becauss You Suck Und Ve Hate You..."
http://monsterhunternation.com/2007/10/09/hk-because-you-suck-and-we-hate-you/

You assume the German government would let them ship a no-barrel SP5 parts kit over here.

[SteyrAUG]

Seems to me that if HK were serious about it, they could open up US facilities to make the barrel here, ship a no-barrel SP5 parts set and marry to an HK USA-made barrel... just for one example. But they won't, "Becauss You Suck Und Ve Hate You..."
http://monsterhunternation.com/2007/10/09/hk-because-you-suck-and-we-hate-you/

German export laws are not the same as US import laws.

HK would have to build the entire thing in house and probably the main reason they don't is because the US government has threatened LE and military contracts if they did.

For every person that hates HK, I guarantee you that if they owned the company, they wouldn't make jack shit for the US given all the legal hoops we hold up for them.

We pretty much banned everything they made from import in 1989 and then HK produced the HK 911, SR9, SR9T, the SR9TC and the US simply added them to the ban list. Then HK finally came up with firearms that were virtually ban proof, the USC and SL8 and US buyers scoffed at them because they were neutered crap.

I'm amazed HK tries to do anything with the US market.

[Diamondback]

You assume the German government would let them ship a no-barrel SP5 parts kit over here.

I was admittedly oversimplifying, but it seems to me that the basic principle about on-shoring as much as necessary to end-run the '89 ban, opening a plant and making all the 922R parts here--essentially, the only thing German left about it being the engineering and the ownership--should have been an effective end-run. Besides, you'd think Feral Gov would love the idea of more of its (our) money staying in America and creating American jobs in American factories...

Oh, that's right, this shit comes from geniuses like Hank "All Dose Planes Gonna Make Guam Tip Over" Johnson and Sheila "Will The Mars Rover Be Able To See The Astronauts' Flag?" Jackson Lee, the kinds who if policymakers were selected on competence couldn't get a job cleaning the Congressional TOILETS.

Then again, I *am* a bit of an oddball... the more roadblocks you put in front of me the more determined I get to ram it so far up your ass it knocks out teeth just to spite you, and if I were running HK I'd be looking for similar end-runs--even if it meant granting Brownells a sub-license and designating certain US vendors as having "Acceptable Compliance Parts," call it "HK416 by Brownells" with the only difference between that and the BRN416's today being the official HK name and licensing.

[SteyrAUG]

I was admittedly oversimplifying, but it seems to me that the basic principle about on-shoring as much as necessary to end-run the '89 ban, opening a plant and making all the 922R parts here--essentially, the only thing German left about it being the engineering and the ownership--should have been an effective end-run. Besides, you'd think Feral Gov would love the idea of more of its (our) money staying in America and creating American jobs in American factories...

Oh, that's right, this shit comes from geniuses like Hank "All Dose Planes Gonna Make Guam Tip Over" Johnson and Sheila "Will The Mars Rover Be Able To See The Astronauts' Flag?" Jackson Lee, the kinds who if policymakers were selected on competence couldn't get a job cleaning the Congressional TOILETS.

Then again, I *am* a bit of an oddball... the more roadblocks you put in front of me the more determined I get to ram it so far up your ass it knocks out teeth just to spite you, and if I were running HK I'd be looking for similar end-runs--even if it meant granting Brownells a sub-license and designating certain US vendors as having "Acceptable Compliance Parts," call it "HK416 by Brownells" with the only difference between that and the BRN416's today being the official HK name and licensing.

Again, HK is state owned so they cannot think like a private business.

But even if the Hanz and Franz actually wanted to set up shop in the US to bypass all the 89 import laws and 922r silliness, you need to remember HK is trying to phase out all roller lock firearms and has been attempting to do so for almost 20 years.

When HK discontinued the G3 and 33 series they planned on making a final run of MP5s, MP5-Ns and MP5SDs for the military crowd and then calling it quits and having everyone start buying UMPs. The developed new generation MP5/40s and MP5/10s and decided that wasn't going to be the future. They even made the UMP9 so people would stop crying about the possibility of the MP5 being discontinued.

The only reason they are still being produced at all is because just about the entire LE community told them to go F themselves and keep making MP5s. But there is no reason they are going to set up a contract facility to crank them out in the US and they certainly aren't interested in semi auto versions for the civie market because they want to move on to what comes next.

Even though pretty much everyone has shown little or no interest in the MP7, HK is far more interested in producing it than continued production of the MP5. They know the military has moved away except in very limited roles with very small segments of the military. And they are seeing US law enforcement move to the M4 from the MP5 for very similar reasons except for small numbers of specialized units.

I don't even think German laws would allow HK to relocate the tooling from Germany to the US to make semi auto versions of the MP5.

Now a US company could buy a license from HK just like FMP, MKE and POF did and get set up with a MP5 factory, but I can't think of any company that would invest the money that would be necessary to do that. I know Mexico has a contract, if those clowns would just start making semi auto HK MP5s, G3s and 33s, they could have a thriving economy right in their own country. They could literally knock MKE and POF out of the game.

[eodinert]

However, if the barrel length is reduced to 10.4 inches (like the HK 416 C), the weight is dramatically reduced and the result is stunning. It becomes a great suppressor host; it handles so much better; and it is one of the hottest numbers on the beach.

It gets lighter, but it doesn't become a good suppressor host.

[JoshNC]

The mr223a3 is a 416A5 with all the proper specs re: barrel (hammer forged chrome lined) , gas block, lower but the rear takedown pin position is slightly different from a standard AR/416, therefore it is not a weapon of war because the upper and lower are incompatible with those of the 416. The Germans, Swiss, some other Europeans, and Canadians can get the mr223a3 with 11”, 14”, and 16” barrels.

https://www.heckler-koch.com/en/products/sport/rifles/mr223-a3/mr223-a3-165/overview.html

The non-US shooting enthusiasts do get a better mr series than we do.

[thegreyman]

Thanks for info fellas!

[montrala]

The mr223a3 is a 416A5 with all the proper specs [...] but the rear takedown pin position is slightly different from a standard AR/416,

Actually since MR223A1 (2011) German Federal Criminal Police (BKA) allowed HK for upper/lower compatibility with standard HK416/AR15/M4/M16 upper/lower.

MR223A3 differences vs HK416A5 are:
- S/A trigger (with F/A hammer)
- S/A bolt carrier
- barrel extension tab that prevents drop-in replacing MR223 S/A bolt carrier with HK416 F/A bolt carrier
- barrel thread M15x1
- heavier profile behind gas block (25mm vs 22mm) and match grade barrel (but chrome lined)
- 2 pin, non-adjustable (pre-A5) gas block (but can be replaced with adjustable, for eg. Norway type)

[thegreyman]

Actually since MR223A1 (2011) German Federal Criminal Police (BKA) allowed HK for upper/lower compatibility with standard HK416/AR15/M4/M16 upper/lower.

MR223A3 differences vs HK416A5 are:
- S/A trigger (with F/A hammer)
- S/A bolt carrier
- barrel extension tab that prevents drop-in replacing MR223 S/A bolt carrier with HK416 F/A bolt carrier
- barrel thread M15x1
- heavier profile behind gas block (25mm vs 22mm) and match grade barrel (but chrome lined)
- 2 pin, non-adjustable (pre-A5) gas block (but can be replaced with adjustable, for eg. Norway type)

Thanks for update. I hope we will see some more alternatives to MR 556 A 1 here. With HK USA facility, I would expect some flexibility. With Marine contracts, HK
will definitely gain exposure.